Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 04-16-05, 12:01 PM	Our newest DM (rotating DM arrangement) loves to use invisibility against us--fully one-fifth of the encounters during our last session (I counted) had invisibility as a factor. So, what are the various things you can do to combat an invisible enemy?
Santrilla 04-16-05, 12:15 PM	The obvious answer is See Invisibility. Other oft-underused methods are spells with wide areas (more chance of hitting them) and more mundane methods, like a bucket full of paint (covers them and lets you see where they are).
Callista 04-16-05, 12:46 PM	I thought about the "bucket full of paint" idea, actually. I don't think my DM would allow it: One of the fights was against some sort of djinn-type monster (I don't know what kind; they were naturally invisible, anyway); and one of our spellcasters has a spell (from Sandstorm, I think) that allows him to create a wall of fire along his path. One turn, he Tumbled through a space occupied by one of the djinn, and the creature was basically in the middle of the wall of fire. We argued that we should be able to see the creature, because where it was, the fire wouldn't be; but our DM only reduced the miss chance to 25%. If his track record holds, he'll rule that a bucket of paint counts as the creature's possessions...
pres_man 04-16-05, 12:53 PM	Don't forget about scent, some guard dogs can help find some invisible foes. Of course they will be dying pretty often, but you can always by more. Or if you have a druid or ranger, their animal companion might be able to sniff out foes. It will only help you determine the square they are in, but that is better then nothing.
crazysamaritan 04-16-05, 01:02 PM	We argued that we should be able to see the creature, because where it was, the fire wouldn't be; but our DM only reduced the miss chance to 25%. Doesn't hold, RAW. Paint works, as does faerie fire. Use flour, or eliminate all light scources, making it as difficult for them to see you as it is for you to see them. If you have enough players, you can all aid another to beat the spot check to see an invisible character. I think it's DC 30.
Ut-Napishtim 04-16-05, 03:04 PM	Glitterdust! One of the most awesome and underrated spells by far. Not only does it allow you to see the unsavory invisbile foe - but it turns the tables on him by blinding him and making the entire party effectively invisible to him. :ayyyy!:
PurdueDave 04-16-05, 03:06 PM	Magic is the usual solution. Some lower level spells that help are glitterdust, see invisibility, invisibility purge, and faerie fire. There are also a number of indirect options that help because they have large area persistent effects (web, entangle, Evard's black tentacles - though it's a little high-level.) See invisibility (from a scroll because it has such a narrow utility) + glitterdust (effective outside of this purpose because of the blindness effect) is probably the most directly effective option. Invisibility purge is nice but you need to keep the invisible enemy in the area of effect for it to do any good. The "bucket of paint" might be a stretch. I'm trying to imagine throwing paint at someone I can't see (or even someone you can see standing 30' away) so that enough of them is covered to show me where they are. The "flour" idea might be OK.
Phrennzy 04-16-05, 05:10 PM	Glitterdust is built for that. My guys fought a pair of phantom fungus in a barn - and the mage nailed one with glitterdust. It died shortly thereafter. Meanwhile, the fight used his shield to scoop up dirt/straw/manure and cast it into the air. I let it fill a 10' x 10' area. He got the right spot on the third try. Once the fungus was covered in dirt/manure, he died quickly. As far as the wall of fire thing, I would not have changed the miss chance at all. The djinni isn't going to stand still in the wall, and the fire will flicker so much behind him that you wouldn't notice his inivisible self. Web might be good too, if you run short of options. Nice area of effect spell, and unless the targets are perfectly still, you MIGHT be able to spot them moving/struggling in the web.
Phrennzy 04-16-05, 05:12 PM	The "bucket of paint" might be a stretch. I'm trying to imagine throwing paint at someone I can't see (or even someone you can see standing 30' away) so that enough of them is covered to show me where they are. I'd treat the paint as a splash that affects one 5' x 5' square. If the creature is in that spot, he's hit - maybe a Reflex DC.
Santrilla 04-16-05, 05:29 PM	I'd treat the paint as a splash that affects one 5' x 5' square. If the creature is in that spot, he's hit - maybe a Reflex DC. Really? I was thinking you could throw the paint across a slightly larger area, maybe 5' x 10'. You'd only really need to hit a smallish part of them to work out where they are; a floating blue splash would be a fair clue. Although it'd probably only reduce the miss chance, or have an increased AC for being a smaller object.
Temrek 04-16-05, 05:58 PM	I think that standing in a cloud of dust or visible gas or similar should reveal the creature but throwing paint at them should not, after all if the creature had makeup it should logically be visible too, right?
Mirikon 04-16-05, 05:59 PM	So, what are the various things you can do to combat an invisible enemy? Fireball Cone of Cold Storm of Vengeance Dispell Magic Antimagic Field Circle of Death Maximized Empowered Twinned Repeating Fireball True Seeing Did I mention Fireball?
wordserpent 04-16-05, 06:13 PM	If you are low level and on a budget, consider carrying a sack full of soot. Even if you miss whatever you are fighting, the soot will still coat the floor and you might see its footprints. White chalk dust works on the same principle. You could even use paint and spill it on the ground. This way you could possibly track the creature if it tries to escape.
Mirikon 04-16-05, 07:14 PM	Oh, a couple more good ones to use against invisible people. Mordenkainen's Disjunction Dance of Ruin
Fargren 04-16-05, 07:54 PM	Stay in a spot and spin real fast, swinging a heavy axe!!! i doubt sonething as big as a djini can hit you without getting hit if you do that(unless of course it atacks from above). Grease also works great against invisible enemys, since you'll know were theyre stnading, and if you're lucky enough, it will cover them as paint would. also consider getting invisible yourself. if e can't see anyone, he'll just leave....(i'm assuming, i've never faced such a situation
krichaiushii 04-16-05, 07:55 PM	The core spells have been covered. Here is a nifty feat from the SRD: BLIND-FIGHT [GENERAL] Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit. An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however. You take only half the usual penalty to speed for being unable to see. Darkness and poor visibility in general reduces your speed to three-quarters normal, instead of one-half. Normal: Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies. Special: The Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell. A fighter may select Blind-Fight as one of his fighter bonus feats. Emphasis is mine. Then you have the following: INVISIBILITY The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can’t be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt. Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision. Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks. A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location. Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures Invisible Creature Is . . . DC In combat or speaking 0 Moving at half speed Move Silently check result Moving at full speed Move Silently check result –4 Running or charging Move Silently check result –20 Some distance away +1 per 10 feet Behind an obstacle (door) +5 Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15 A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.) If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location. If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance. If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance. If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location. An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment. A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one. A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.) A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility. An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help. Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks. Invisibility does not thwart detect spells. Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible. Again, emphasis is mine. Based on the RAW, since flour is used as an example of covering an enemy, then paint should work as well. And detection spells will work... detect magic, detect alignment, detect undead, etc. So, short of magic, it is ALMOST impossible to accurately pinpoint an invisible creature. But the above readings should help you immensely. And in case you aren't aware, the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) is a digital version of the core books - PHB, DMG, and MMI; so if your DM tries to put a kibosh on any of the above, you might pull the appropriate book out and show him in print. If he still balks, ask him to please delineate IN WRITING any other houserules that run counter to those printed in the core books. Just so everyone is on the same sheet of music, as it were.
Callista 04-16-05, 08:04 PM	Stay in a spot and spin real fast, swinging a heavy axe!!! i doubt sonething as big as a djini can hit you without getting hit if you do that(unless of course it atacks from above).Hmm, can you say "fort save or be nauseated"? For reference, we are 7th level; but if you have tactics (everything from a sackful of soot to Mord's Disjunction) that will help players of other levels, why not post them? I'm not the only one benefiting from this thread. And, then, if we start a new campaign with this DM, no doubt he'll use invisibility on us again... So with those Listen checks--you "pinpoint" an invisible opponent who is in combat with a DC 20 Listen check, right? And that gives you his location, and a 50% miss chance... What happens if you blindly attack into a square, hoping your opponent is there? Can you do that? It seems like a valid tactic in a hallway or small room. Or do you have to feel for him, then attack? Which "area of effect" spells are there that cancel invisibility? Like, if I knew my opponent was in a 20'x20' area, is there a spell I can cast that covers that area?
Nom 04-16-05, 08:30 PM	So with those Listen checks--you "pinpoint" an invisible opponent who is in combat with a DC 20 Listen check, right? And that gives you his location, and a 50% miss chance...No, you get a rough idea of his location with a Listen vs Move Silently check, and can pinpoint him you win by 20 or more. What happens if you blindly attack into a square, hoping your opponent is there? Can you do that? It seems like a valid tactic in a hallway or small room. Or do you have to feel for him, then attack?See krichaiushii's post. If you blindly attack, your DM should roll a miss chance. If the creature is actually in that square and the miss chance roll is good, then you hit (and have just pinpointed your target). Otherwise, you miss. Which "area of effect" spells are there that cancel invisibility? Like, if I knew my opponent was in a 20'x20' area, is there a spell I can cast that covers that area?Do you mean "cancel" or "ignore"? Cancelling the spell or effect requires dispel magic, anti-magic field, invisibility purge or the like (note that a successful dispel magic also dispels the spell, while the other two simply suppress it while in the area of effect). In contrast, any area attack ignores invisibility. If you know he's in a 20x20 area, blanket the area with fireball / web / glitterdust. If the attack needs to target a creature, you can't use it against an invisible creature (unless you can somehow gain line of sight). If it targets an area, it works just fine. On the fire example above, I would have ruled that the hole in the fire allowed you to pinpoint the creature. Reducing the miss chance to 25% was generous but reasonable, in my opinion.
Callista 04-16-05, 08:34 PM	"Cancel". Basically anything that allows you to hit the invisible (or formerly invisible) creature without having to roll a miss chance. We've already used Fireball, etc., to good effect against invisible creatures, especially when we're standing in the doorway and the rogue or ranger (they both have very high Spot) detects the presence of invisible creatures somewhere in the room... we just have the spellcasters blast the area a couple of times. There's only so many area of effect spells a spellcaster will have memorized, though. I've been helping out with a necklace of fireballs we were lucky enough to find, but I've only got three beads left...
d00m_b4b00n 04-16-05, 08:53 PM	It does say that invisibility does not thwart detect spells, so that paladin with detect evil can find most invisible opponents at will. Give that paladin a bottle of alchemists fire and he can "paint" the invisible enemy for his team-mates. This should work from first level until someone gets purge invisibility.
Fargren 04-16-05, 08:59 PM	Just tear the damn room/builiding/cave down!! A falling ceiling doesn't care if you're invisble or not :P. Of coure, if you wan't to survive in addition to killing your enemy, i'd recomend what you've read above. Now, i've been thinking aout a really cool Noir chapter: you could throw popcorn or anything that makes sound when steped on on the ground, giving your opponents a huge penalisatoin to move silently(around -10 for something quite noisy, but i would give a -15 for Lays), making pinpointing easy.
Callista 04-17-05, 08:25 AM	It does say that invisibility does not thwart detect spells, so that paladin with detect evil can find most invisible opponents at will. Give that paladin a bottle of alchemists fire and he can "paint" the invisible enemy for his team-mates. This should work from first level until someone gets purge invisibility.Tried it... takes 3 rounds. That's too long...
Nom 04-17-05, 10:31 AM	You need to decide whether invisibility is likely to be a common problem. If it is, then make sure you have access to one or more of the following: * see invisibility (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 2) * invisibility purge (Clr 3) * glitterdust (Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2) Any of these will rapidly deal with invisibility. If it's really an issue, a wand of see invisibility or wand of glitterdust costs 4,500gp at caster level 3. From a plot & metagame standpoint, you need to ask yourselves whether you had a lot of encounters with inivisbility because it was thematically appropriate, because it is an effective tactic (it is), or because the DM decided you were weak against it. It can be hard for DMs to avoid metagaming against the party's capabilities. If you start memorising anti-invisibility spells and the DM suddenly stops using invisibility in situations where he previously would have, it is appropriate to call him on it - 9 times out of 10, it's unfair behaviour by the DM. If you are worried about DM metagaming, one trick for wizards and divine casters is to write down your list of spells for the day, put a sealed copy somewhere, and then don't show your DM the list. The sealed copy verifies that you have not cheated, but hampers the DM from unintentionally basing opponent's tactics on knowledge of your spells. As a side point, this is one big advantage of published modules - the opponents "as written" cannot be customised to take advantage of PC peculiarities.
krichaiushii 04-17-05, 04:39 PM	The magic item Dust of Appearence might help if you know the general area of an opponent. But it can become an expensive piece of guesswork. From the SRD: Dust of Appearance: This fine powder appears to be a very fine, very light metallic dust. A single handful of this substance flung into the air coats objects within a 10-foot radius, making them visible even if they are invisible. It likewise negates the effects of blur and displacement. (In this, it works just like the faerie fire spell). The dust also reveals figments, mirror images, and projected images for what they are. A creature coated with the dust takes a –30 penalty on its Hide checks. The dust’s effect lasts for 5 minutes. Dust of appearance is typically stored in small silk packets or hollow bone tubes. Faint conjuration; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, glitterdust; Price 1,800 gp.
Callista 04-17-05, 07:12 PM	Price: 1,800 gp A bit steep... our cleric is just gonna have to buy some scrolls of invisibility purge...