Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-30-04, 11:02 AM	Alright, here's the rundown: Our group infiltrated the BBEG's lair, only to find out we're too late to stop his summoning ritual. We manage to slay him, (barely) but his pet Barbed Devil (or "Spikey" as we call him) is now free to do as he wishes. It just so happens he wishes to see us very much so dead. Problem is, this one is an advanced version, so he's significantly tougher than the normal variety. He's far too tough for us (we bolted) but he's a reoccuring nightmare. He doesn't like to get go outdoors though, dunno if we can use that to our advantage. Question is: How in heck to you combat a devil? This thing would've been tough normally, but it being advanced it seems difficult to defeat. Our party consists of: Human Ftr1/Conjurer11 (Me) Elven Rgr4/Wiz6/Eldritch Knight2 Human Brd12 Aasimar Monk10 We have a lot of spellcasters, but it's kinda tough to break his SR. (It's at least 23 I believe). I have access to pretty much every spell 4th level and below, plus a small selection of the higher level spells (up to 6th, of which I only have Disentegrate and Summon Monster VI). We're a little constrained for time, so sitting down and researching isn't very viable. I have Quicken Spell, if that helps. (Incidentally, I'm also the "toughest" member of the party -- high AC, high HP) Oh, and it's worth noting that he usually finds us, and not the other way around. We've had to use Teleport/Dimension Door tactics to speed away a couple of times to save our butts. Any advice that would save our souls from Spikey is appreciated. :)
Beamup 03-30-04, 11:30 AM	Get yourselves over to a large Good church FAST. Pay for a casting of Planar Ally (preferably Greater) - even GPA is only 3,700 GP. Most any good cleric of high enough level to cast the spell would likely happily hire a spell out in the interest of killing a devil. And the Planetar that's one of the most likely results of a GPA to fight a Devil will be a HUGE help. Note that while not every large Good church would have a level 15 cleric in residence, they should at least be able to tell you where to find one.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-30-04, 06:15 PM	Are you using 3.0 or 3.5?
krichaiushii 03-30-04, 07:18 PM	Perhaps you could find a sage ingame to consult regarding special weaknesses that Spikey might have. It depends on your game. Crafting (self or via commission) or questing for special devil-slaying items might work, as well. I believe that if you succeed in dispatching him on any plane besides his native plane, he will be banished for 100 years from that plane. It will be tough, but will buy time to find/make stuff to defeat him. Perhaps you can retreat to one of the planes that is anathema to devils. Hiding out there might buy time, though may have its own perils. You might even be able to cut deals with other devils/demons for assistance, though this is a very slippery slope to start down - and depending on your party RP makeup may not even be an option.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-30-04, 07:50 PM	We're playing in a 3.5 environment. Everything is strictly Core. I contemplated the Devil insta-kill item method...unfortunately, it would take too long (he'll definately hit us before it's finished being commisioned) He's not averse to hitting us while asleep or otherwise occupied. (Haven't caught him scrying on us, so I suspect he's not doing that. Probably random. We've never successfully scared him off) Also, my char acts very much like a Paladin (he actually introduces himself as such) It would look....odd, if he were to consult with other Devils/Demons. :) The Planar Ally idea is looking like a good idea...we're not exactly loaded with cash, but I'm sure my team isn't against pawning off some items in exchange for our lives. :D Great suggestions, keep 'em coming. I'm not keen on being impaled by Spikey. :)
FOOL 03-30-04, 08:24 PM	You might be able to hide out on Ysgard. Is suspect the people there hate Devils even more than you do. Does he make lots of use of Summoning other Devils? If so, you could hire a gatecrasher (if you can find one) with the dampaning skills. Another option is to Seek out a Dragon. A Bronze or Silver would probobly help you at little cost. The last (and probobly wost) option I can think of that hasen't been said, is.... attack him head on! After running away all this time, I don't think he'll be expecting that. Good luck!
wdarkk 03-31-04, 12:05 AM	I'd recommend Greater Planar Ally as well. It's amazing what you can buy if you pool your money.
Korhal IV 03-31-04, 12:15 AM	Plane-Shift to somewhere good. And by good I mean Good. Celestia should do, or Elysium, or just about anywhere. Take some time to rest up, prepare tactics, and bargain with celestials for assistance (good opportunity for RP, especially if your Conjurer really is paladin-y).
Kalrin 03-31-04, 02:19 AM	Your DM is being kind.... Said Bone Devil can cast Dimensional Anchor.... watch out for that.... It looks like it's going to be the Monk and you who'll be the ones to win this fight. Your Part: Get a few Summon Monsters off. This is so that there is some other combat help around. Now, your party suffers from a very bad lack of Melee physical heavy hitters (which is why SR is so much a problem for you). This is why you are having half the problem you are. The Eldrich Knight looks like he wants to fix this problem, but right now it's up to you. Now: Buy a Scroll of Tenser's Transformation. Put it in your Book. Buy a Potion of Bull's Strength (Spell Component). Memorize Tenser's Transformation. When the Bone Devil shows up, throw a couple Summon Monster VI out there, and then cast Tensers. Wade in along with your Monk and the Summons. It seems the only way you're going to scare this thing off is if you try to physically paste it. As previously mentioned, hired help might work. Hire some High Level Fighters (Mercenaries preferably). They pack a punch, don't require favors (just hard cash), and are relativly easy to find. Future: Invest in some of the Following (if you already haven't) Spell Focus (Evocation, Enchantment, Transformation and Conjuration are good Schools), Spell Penetration and Leadership (Get a follower, preferably a Fighter (Single Class)). Encourage the Eldrich Knight to continue down that path, you really need more front line power. Hope that helps :)
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-31-04, 11:24 AM	Incidentally, it's a Barbed Devil, and not a Bone Devil. (They don't have Dimensional Anchor...I think) I briefly considered the thought of frontline fighting against him. However I tossed that idea out just as quickly, due to the fact that we need Good-aligned weapons (only I have one) and it's actually damaging to physically strike him. His spikes actually serve as a defensive offense of sorts. He also has 30 or so AC, which is tough, even while transformed. :( His biggest strength is his ability to Grapple. None of us have a chance in heck of escaping it, but all of us have Dimension Door in some manner. Hired help is a good idea. (Planar Ally's galore :)) Actually finding higher level NPC's is difficult at best -- for story reasons, many of them have departed to other planes. Having high level spells cast for us is pretty much out -- however we can always purchase scrolls. (Bard has a ridiculous UMD check) Again, time is of the essence. Spikey captured a village of 2000 people early last session and is slowly killing them off as a means of getting us to show up. This is amidst the random strikes on us when he figures out where we are. (*mumble* Lawful-Evil bastard...) He's causing problems constantly, as he doesn't need to sleep. Let's say we did the unthinkable and actually tried taking him head on. Any suggestions as to how we should go about doing that? Strategies? It seems like a lost cause...
krichaiushii 03-31-04, 12:11 PM	Isn't there a spell called align weapon? I thought so. From the 3.5 SRD: Align Weapon Transmutation [see text] Level: Clr 2 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Weapon touched or fifty projectiles (all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting) Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) Align weapon makes a weapon good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, as you choose. A weapon that is aligned can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. This spell has no effect on a weapon that already has an alignment. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike. When you make a weapon good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, align weapon is a good, evil, lawful, or chaotic spell, respectively. Maybe scroll(s) of align weapon for your bard to UMD with could help. Maybe you could find the aasimar's celestial ancestor and cut a deal with him/her/it?
dantedarkstar 03-31-04, 01:10 PM	Remember that most conjurations (hey ! that's your speciality, ain't it ?) do not allow SR. Stinking Cloud can really make him... less dangerous. If he fails save... If you manage to blind him with Glitterdust, it's even better. Glitterdust = outline + Fog Cloud = concealment for party, but not for devil. Maybe Black Tentacles ? Treat him a bit of his own medicine. Ray of Enfeeblement is great if you manage to break through his SR. Certainly softens up meele and grapple. Ranger should certainly pepper him with arrows. Since he's also Wiz, I'm pretty sure he has True Strike, which could help. If acid arrow wasn't acid, it would help too, since it's no SR too. As for SM VI, the best would be probably Large Earth Elemental. Tough and mean. With Haste (you MUST have that spell, it's still kickass) it could be quite efficient and harmful barrier between you and the badass. hmm... Dismissal ? Telekinesis + rock. 12d6 rock. So what he has DR ? You'll get through it anyway. Magic circle vs Evil isn't so bad too if the baddie likes summoning things. They can do nothing to you really, if you have this on. Enervation can wear him down if you manage to break through SR. Try to generally get help from outside the party. You may want to set up an ambush too, meaning arranging things in a way that will benefit you if it Spikey will appear. Like... hmm... err... okay. That's a little tough. Maybe some prepared room in some ruins, so that when it appears, you all evacuate room and you cast disintegrate at certain part of the ceiling so that it comes down at him ? This won't kill him probably, but will shift things in your favor... more or less. Scrolls. With scroll of SM VII, you can bring Huge Earth Elemental. With over +30 on grapple, this thing can give him a little taste of wrestling (Large earth elemental has only +17 there). I doubt even advanced cornugon can beat that easily. And yes, you could also may want to Dim. Anchor the devil, otherwise it could escape if things turned bad, before you could kill him.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-31-04, 01:31 PM	Ah, forgot to mention another detail -- forbidden schools are Necromancy and Enchantment. As for Glitterdust and other saving spells, I've tried, Moradin knows I've tried....his saves are absurdly high for our ECL, given his CR is considerably higher than we could normally handle. (Note -- we're pretty much to blame for his coming into existance, so my DM is little at fault here.):bigeyes: Tentacles...might serve as a means of slowing him down, but his check is easily in the 20's, so I can't hold him long! But I love the thought of the Huge Elemental. That's a great idea! I don't think Devils have a means of dismissing summons...correct? I've been using Quickened Pro-Evil to buy me time to round up our teammates to Teleport away. (He can Hold Person at will, that much I'm sure)
Koga:The ninja trick 03-31-04, 01:55 PM	He doesn't like light eh? Why not just restrain him and cast daylight/permancency? Forever imprisoned between darkness and light. :cool: Or how about soul gem? Not only do you get rid of the devil but you get a cool looking snowball in the process.. :D
Kalrin 03-31-04, 03:53 PM	Sorry bout the confusion, I was tired when I wrote said post.... Most of what I said though still holds, with 1 Major Exception: Use Reach Weapons. Specifically, arm the party with +1 Holy Glaives. This'll cost you 18,308 per player (read 73,232 sum total), but you will A) pass the DR B) Not have to worry about grappling (as much) and C) give a little bonus damage. For instance, taking you for example and assuming you have a base STR of 14 (not too unreasonable yes?) and have cast Tenser's Transformation you'll be looking at the following AC 29 12 17 20 STR of 19 (Average, ranges from 16 to 22) ATK: +17/+12/+7 (0.65 hits per round) DAM: 1d10 + 7 + 2d6 (20, x3) (19 points of damage per hit) Assuming no crits (and you should get some) you'll be dealing about 12 to 13 points of damage per round (this is a rough expected value). If you can't afford this, go with +1 Glaives (Total Cost 9,232 gp) Also, bring along Glaives to equip the Townsfolk with. You've got a Bard, so you can inspire them to resist, and so you can launch a revolt against "The Foul being of Darkness which slaughters your children and murders your wives; RESIST I tell you....." *Smile* just a suggestion from someone who's almost crazy :)
HoshiAdam 03-31-04, 04:28 PM	If you use 3.5, I'd go with Longspears instead of Glaives, as the poster above suggested, since they are simple reach weapons now.
cambric 04-01-04, 09:32 AM	Amazing spell...shrink HUGE boulders, then just throw them and say the word and they expand!! Or, probably unrealistic for such a short time, but a gigantic arrow(s), shrink them to "normal" size, then say the word as the ranger fires "True Strike"...that should cause a lot more damage. IF you have time, find liquid(s) that cause it damage, put tons of it in a huge container, or several great sized containers, then shrink them...use as throwing objects, then unshrink them as they hit. Unfortunately, you probably don't have the time/resourses ahead of time to do these ideas, but if you do, maybe it will help. Good luck and please let us know how it goes!! Cam
Goreg Skullcrusher 04-01-04, 09:42 AM	The next session will be this Saturday. I've finished writing up my characters' will. :( Couple of things that have come to my attention: -Elementals don't have Improved Grapple. If they get hit while trying (which they will -- Spikey has over +20 to hit) they fail the Grapple. We have a house rule in effect that a Grapple attempt, regardless of whether it's done at reach still provokes an AoO from the victim. (Unless done with Imp. Grapple, or Imp. Grab and the like) -Longspears/Glaives: Great idea....too bad we can't take advantage of it! Our Strength scores are pathetic -- 11, 13, 10, and 14 for the Monk. We usually rely on more arcane methods. :) When I fight, it's usually Polymorphed into something else. Or how about soul gem? Not only do you get rid of the devil but you get a cool looking snowball in the process.. :rofl: You know I have to try this now? :) These are some great ideas. I'm going to have to mill through them and assemble the best ones. Really appreciate it guys!
Shemeska the Marauder 04-02-04, 02:26 AM	He named his Hamatula 'Spikey'? *grins* I like that. *mutters about 3.5 reverting to the old 1e names for Baatezu and Tanar'ri*
dantedarkstar 04-02-04, 06:16 AM	As for Huge Elemental, you could try to exhaust his AoO. I dunno if it has combat reflexes, but even if it has, you could try to lure him into using all of them for the round on some minor stuff you summon, so that the big piece of rock could grab him. And if not, the big piece of rock still has +19 meele. +1 earth mastery (you'll fight on ground, right ?), +1 from Haste, +2 from strength increase due to Augument Summoning or just Bull's Strength... And there's quite big damage after that hit. Hmm... althrough it won't get past it's DR (which means quite less damage, but far from none), unless GM allows Align Weapon to be cast on natural weapons. Polymorph + Tenser's Transformation is quite an effective combo too. Change into Hill Giant and bash away (reach weapon for giant gives you total 20ft reach, but 10t dead zone). Change Monk into some kickass outsider 10HD or less (that's max for him), like Avoral or some devil/demon (if he doesn't mind). You CAN do that, since Polymorph allows change into type from list OR the type the creature is already (Aasimar = Outsider).
Shemeska the Marauder 04-02-04, 07:06 AM	Aasimar are native outsiders, not true outsiders. That's a hazy situation for allowing him to polymorph into a true outsider, and while I can't say definately here on the rules involved if it's kosher, I wouldn't allow it in a game.
wdarkk 04-02-04, 07:17 AM	Native is a subtype. It has no bearing on what he can polymorph into. A demon could polymorph into an archon.
dantedarkstar 04-02-04, 07:59 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Aasimar are native outsiders, not true outsiders. That's a hazy situation for allowing him to polymorph into a true outsider, and while I can't say definately here on the rules involved if it's kosher, I wouldn't allow it in a game. According to rules, it's allowed, as wdrakk said. Whether GM would use rule 0 to disallow it or not is another thing. And I have no idea about his GM, so I suggested what's allowed by the rules. Besides, it's not that unbalancing. True - outsiders are generally more powerful than non-outsiders of same HD, but very large part of thier power comes from Ex qualities, Su attacks/qualities and Spell-likes, which Polymorph doesn't grant. Changing into Avoral isn't that much better than changing into Hill Giant. And if someone is outsider, it means LA, which decreases HD, which means generally at least 1 HD down on max thing you can change into. Althrough I agree changing into Hamatula or Astral Deva gives quite good stat boosts. Still, the character paid for Outsider type with LA, so I don't have problem with allowing him to use that.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-02-04, 11:57 AM	*shrug* Never let the 'rules' get in the way of logic for a situation. But I'll disregard such things in the interest of plot. But in any event, while I personally find it ludicrous to allow an Aasimar to polymorph into a true celestial, you're free to do whatever you feel like in your own games. I just don't think the diluted level of outsider blood in their veins, so to speak, qualifies them to make such a drastic transformation.
wdarkk 04-02-04, 10:43 PM	I don't see why. An Aasimar is closer to a Celestial than an Elf is to a Troglodyte.
Goreg Skullcrusher 04-05-04, 12:43 PM	Well, Saturday came and passed, and the results of the session were messy, at best. We had just finished visiting a High Priestess in the nation's capitol (story-related issues) where afterwards we left towards a an abandoned Iron mine that was rumoured to be inhabited by suspicious people. (one of which incidentally sounded like the BBEG) We arrived at the cave, and after a bit of dungeon crawling we cross a chasm only to be ambushed by 2 Dread Wraiths. These things were insanely difficult, leaving the Eldritch Knight and the Bard badly drained of Con. Guess who decides that now would be a good time to show up.... Insert Spikey. He immediately launches himself at the Monk (He won initiative). Monk is grappled. I figure it's now or never -- hit him with a Dimensional Anchor + Quicken True Strike. Rolled a 10 for SR check, failing it. Others buff themselves, Monk tries desperately to escape, to no avail. Round 2, Spikey turns the Monk into a pin cushion. I try one last time to hit him with a Dim. Anchor, my last one. 7. Failed SR. :mad: Others continue to buff and heal. Round 3, Spikey uses his spell-like abilities to Hold the Eldritch Knight, as well as close in on him. I fervently start summoning. Round 4, Spikey CDG's the EK. (His Will save is awful) My summons (Celestial Stag Beetles) arrive and unleash hell on him, with 2 of them miraculously hitting. (Remember his 30 or so AC?) I prep the Huge Earth Elemental. The Bard tries to cast Hold Monster at Spikey. We all get a good laugh, as the DM promptly rolls a 4, indicating a successful save. (silly Bards :D) He DID beat the SR though... Round 5, Spikey Greater Teleports behind the Bard. (Easily done with his high Concentration) I unleash the Earth Elemental. Attempted grapple - he got hit, failed. Bard Dimensior Doors back to the summons. Round 6, Spikey comes for me, obtains a grapple. I Dim Door away. Summons attempt to beat him silly, when finally luck springs in our favour -- Spikey missed his AoO vs. the Earth Elemental. He's grappled! Bard buffs all the summons with her Words of Creation. She almost passes out. Round 7, Spikey Greater Teleports next to me. I defensively haste all of us. Bard, no longer needing to buff, attempts to Hold Monster again . We enjoy another laugh as it fails miserably. (why she had so many scrolls of them is beyond me) Summons all pound on him, doing some damage. Round 8, Spikey grapples me again. My high HP allow me to shrug off the damage, (also thanks to the temp. HP from Bard) I Dim. Door out. Summons pound on him some more. Bard uses another Hold Monster -- when something unexpectedly sweet happens. She not only broke the Devils' SR, but our DM's confident laughter turned into pale-faced horror as he rolled a natural 1 on his save. Muhuhaha! :D Round 9, Spikey spends full-round breaking the Hold. Summons go all out. (The Earth Elemental is doing very well) I fire my last lucky lvl 6 spell -- Disintegrate, nailing him dead on with a critical, and busting his SR. He makes his save, but the DM notes that I left a significant wound. Spikey's hurt...Spikey's dying! Bard re-buffs. Round 10, Spikey panics, and decides to bolt. He Greater Teleports away, leaving us badly wound and with dead comrades, but victorious nontheless. Thanks for all your help guys! The XP we got was absurdly high because my DM didn't expect us to have tactics ready for him, not to mention Spikey's insane CR. :D :bow:
wdarkk 04-05-04, 01:06 PM	Next time, bring a few more scrolls of Dimensional Anchor. Also, expect Spikey to be a little more tactical. Oh, and I'd recommend considering asking your DM to use the additions to the Summon Monster tables in other books. BoED in particular, the 3-headed Leskylor (same level as the Huge Elemental) looks pretty sweet. It's got +9 less on the grapple check, but it has improved grab meaning it will have a much easier time grappling. And 5 attacks (7 if grappling), not to mention Touch of Golden Ice (fort save or lose Dex on each hit).
Kalrin 04-05-04, 03:42 PM	To which I have to say "Boo-Yah!" Rock on! :) glad we could help :)
cambric 04-05-04, 05:43 PM	Congrats!! Hopefully you won't encounter "Spikey" for a long time!! Cam
dantedarkstar 04-06-04, 07:47 AM	Congrats ! Send him to hell ! :) Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher Round 6, Spikey comes for me, obtains a grapple. I Dim Door away. Summons attempt to beat him silly, when finally luck springs in our favour -- Spikey missed his AoO vs. the Earth Elemental. He's grappled! Bard buffs all the summons with her Words of Creation. She almost passes out. If you stayed grappled, Eearth Elemental could go without AoO, since when grappling you do not threaten area. Nor get Dex to AC for the matter, so touch attack to connect is rather easy. Just something to remember for future encouters with certain spiky guy (or anything similiar). You could delay after earth elemental and teleport out when Spikey is already grappled by the elemental. Round 8, Spikey grapples me again. My high HP allow me to shrug off the damage, (also thanks to the temp. HP from Bard) I Dim. Door out. Summons pound on him some more. Bard uses another Hold Monster -- when something unexpectedly sweet happens. She not only broke the Devils' SR, but our DM's confident laughter turned into pale-faced horror as he rolled a natural 1 on his save. Muhuhaha! :D I've been there ! We had certain NPC in our party, which at least twice went through almost-impossible SR and very high save with his Hold. But drows don't have Greater Teleport as spell-like :devil: Thanks for all your help guys! The XP we got was absurdly high because my DM didn't expect us to have tactics ready for him, not to mention Spikey's insane CR. Better be prepared for future unexpected visits though. But with that exp, it could prove a lot easier !