Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vegeta7835 12-31-04, 11:52 PM	What do you think would be a better selection for fighting style with a Paladin: Two-handing a large sword or Sword and shield? Your reasoning would be most appreciated, too! You see, I don't see why ANY character, let alone a Paladin, would two-hand a weapon (such as a longsword). I mean, you get 1-2 more points of damage, but with no feats to increase your potential in two-handed fighting I don't see any reason to take it. I mean, having a shield would make you have a little less damage (unless I am missing something and you can take feats that improve a TH warrior's capabilities) but would instead give you a large increase in Armor Class. I mean, max level you would have a +5 enchanted shield PLUS the base bonus from the shield of +1 and up--not to mention the special abilities that can be on a shield. What do you guys think? My player is really upset because he is in LOVE with the prospect of a warrior having both hands griping his longsword in combat, but there is nothing to support using that style in the game . . . Thanks a bunch!
GaffeR 01-01-05, 12:01 AM	it all depends what you wanna do with your paladin: Damage or tank for the two handed style you can grab a greatsword and power attack your way through evil. Two handing a weapon gives you Str x 1.5 on the damage rather than just strength, and you get twice the damage when you Power attack (-1 to hit, +2 dmg) on the other hand, if you wanna tank grab a shield. You can get yourself a +5 heavy steel shield and then use Divine Shield to add your Cha bonus to it's ac. My paladin got sorta bamboolzed into using sword n shield style, but it's workin out well. he uses his holy sword w/ divine might and smiting once in a while to dish out the pain, and divine shield to give himself an extra +5 ac on top of his +3 shield. Plus, you get the added bonus of being the archetypal paladin w/ a sword and shield as well as specializing with the DMG Holy Avenger
Gurv 01-01-05, 12:01 AM	Wow. So you see it your way and thats it? He can't do it? How about this for a feat that enhances two-handed fighting: Power Attack. In my group, I have to fight with people to MAKE them use weapons in one hand. POWER ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Str 13. Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.) A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
BOK2 01-01-05, 12:10 AM	Enchanted greatsword + power attack + animated shield = paladin with great damage potential and defense. :)
vegeta7835 01-01-05, 01:32 AM	Wow. So you see it your way and thats it? He can't do it? No, don't misunderstand me here. I didn't say that he couldn't have it. I posted this so that I could help him be the best he could be. I wanted to know if you could show me some great things a 2-hander could do. Thanks, by the way everyone. I didn't even think about the Power Attack feat! I feel dumb about that, lol!! :D
HomebrewedMonster 01-01-05, 01:46 AM	Let him use a longsword if he wants too. It's a great multipurpose weapon without having to take the feat for bastard sword. Sure he's giving up 4 points of damage, 2 on average, but he can also carry a shield and whip it out when he needs it. So if he wants to swing a longsword two-handed let him, the majority of weapon damage comes for feats, strength, and enchantments anyway. Using the longsword he can be a versatile fighter. Two-handed and tank when need be.
allenchan 01-01-05, 02:15 AM	alright, first of all your player is an idiot for using a longsword (which is one handed) as a two-handed weapon. Just use a greatsword. Secondly, he could try using TWF with a greatsword/armor spikes, which is pretty friggin cool. Third, as mentioned, animated shields are marvelous, too.
The Man from Uncle 01-01-05, 03:07 AM	Actually the idea of using a longsword two handed for versatility is none too bad. I can't remember what the rules are for drawing and dropping shields, but i seem to recall that a butler can be worn while using a two handed weapon, at the expence of its defence bonus. Going sword and shield most of the time is probably the way forward, but come late on in the game when you're fighting low AC high damage oppents (or giants i think they are called in 3rd edition) who are going to hit you anyway, you might as well exploit an extra bit of power attack bonus.
Faragon 01-01-05, 03:47 AM	alright, first of all your player is an idiot for using a longsword (which is one handed) as a two-handed weapon. Just use a greatsword.Actually, looking at it from a style point of view, I can see where the player's coming from. Personally, I'd say give him (for realism's sake) a bastard sword. Can be used both one and twohanded. If he insists on using a longsword twohanded, let him. Give him a +1 on his damage rolls because he can put more muscle behind it. Give him a -1 on his attackrolls because twohanded, you can't swing a longsword as is intended, your angles of attack are limited.
Telperion 01-01-05, 04:42 AM	If he insists on using a longsword twohanded, let him. Give him a +1 on his damage rolls because he can put more muscle behind it. Give him a -1 on his attackrolls because twohanded, you can't swing a longsword as is intended, your angles of attack are limited. From SRD 3.5 One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls. I don't really understand why you need to add that bonus and penalty as a Houserule. On the plus side if you grasp a one-handed melee weapon with two hands you get to add 1 1/2 times your str mod to your damage roll, if you hit. On the minus side you lose your shield bonus for a while, assuming you are wearing one. It's a trade between AC and damage, so why the extra modifiers?
Dartanel 01-01-05, 05:02 AM	In my opinion, Sword and shield would be better if the Paladin had a lower STR score. If your Paladin had sufficient stats to have a high strength, then two handed smiting is all the rage this winter. :)
Faragon 01-01-05, 06:47 AM	I don't really understand why you need to add that bonus and penalty as a Houserule. On the plus side if you grasp a one-handed melee weapon with two hands you get to add 1 1/2 times your str mod to your damage roll, if you hit. On the minus side you lose your shield bonus for a while, assuming you are wearing one. It's a trade between AC and damage, so why the extra modifiers?Hmm, fair enough. Thanks for the correction. :)
Leibel 01-02-05, 11:24 PM	Sure the damage is not as good but my Paladins go with battle axe(x3 on critical vs x2 on longsword - yes I know the longsword gets a critical more) and a shield. Error on the side of caution and if nothing else save the cleric's healing spells for the softer types who really need it.
Ualaa 01-03-05, 12:15 AM	Mechanically speaking, as a Paladin you want to concentrate upon Mounted Combat. Any other style of combat, and you have picked the wrong class. That's not to say you cannot have fun with a two-weapon style paladin... Or that you do not want to roleplay a two-handed weapon style paladin with the need to defeat the evil orcs lead by the dark priests of some nasty fiend. For a cavalry type paladin, your stats are probably prioritized STR, CHA, CON, WIS, INT, DEX. Your "buff" type spells before combat are probably Bless Weapon, Divine Favor, Pro from Evil, Buffs (Bear's End., Bull's Str., and Eagle's Splendor), Prayer, Dispel Evil and Holy Sword. For feats, consider: 1: Mounted Combat 3: Ride-by Attack 6: Spirited Charge 9: Leadership (mounted Cleric of Paladin's faith). 12: Power Attack 15: Cleave 18: Trample For skills, max ranks in: Ride. Plus anything you feel is useful. Go with the heaviest armor you can find, both for yourself and your mount. A weapon which inflicts extra damage when charging is a must, along with a couple of backup weapons.
Leibel 01-03-05, 12:53 AM	Lances are just perfect for a mounted combat Paladin. Heal Mount spell is good too.
Telperion 01-03-05, 04:24 AM	IMO some of the best Paladin feats can be found in Complete Warrior and Complete Divine. The stuff that works well for a Cleric works, IMO, even better for a paladin. As a character gets higher in level the Turn Undead class ability starts to dramatically lose its significance for clerics. Since paladins aren't that great at Turn Undead to begin with they are much better off with spending their Turn Undead attemps on some Divine Feats that allow you to swap those Turn Undead attempts for some seriously useful effects. These effects may not last long, but they are very nice :). I have also noted that the Extra Turning feat is very useful for paladins when they want to use the afore mentioned Divine Feats many times per' day.
danielinthewolvesden 01-03-05, 11:37 AM	Paladins just don't have that many feats. And, if the Fighter specializes in one weapon, then having the Pally be a generalist (so he can use that battle axe+2, flaming- that the BBEG drops) is a good idea. Because it takes less feats to be 'good at it"- "Sword and board" is your best combo. That is also because the fighter or barbarian are likely going to be weilding two-handed weapons. Two-handed weapons are also best if you have a high str. However, the pally's highest stat has to be the one most fighters & barbarians dump- CHA. So- in general, Pally's have a lower str. As Telperion noted- a couple of good divine feats are useful for the pally in most campaigns. But if you're the only "turner" and there are scads of lower undead you can turn- then maybe not. Otherwise- either the cleric will be way better than you- or your turning is ineffectual. Mounted Combat is a good feat. Going down that feat track with Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, etc- may be a bad idea. After all- with your mount you are already the best warrior in the party. And, in most dungeons some cities- and even some outdoor areas- you can't use your Mount- and WHAM- there goes half your feats- which makes you much less effective. Unless you KNOW that you're going to be able to use your Mount 90% of the time- don't go that route. Now- there is one more route which is very nice for a Pally- Pious Templar. This does require weapon focus with your God's favoured weapon- then it gives you wpn spec with the same. Thus, you lose flexability and gain much power- but only if your God weilds something you're going to be happy with. Followers of Ilmater could find this a problem...
Arilou_skiff 01-03-05, 11:51 AM	Personally I'm going for a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I'm playing a "Sword and Board" style paladin, (Scimitar and shield actually) I took Mounted Combat for first level and are planning on getting Power Attack (mostly for Divine might, with my 20 CHA that's just too good to pass up on) Our only cleric has a -1 charisma modifier, which *might* mean that I'll pick up some divine feats later on too...
Masrai 01-03-05, 12:23 PM	Actually the idea of using a longsword two handed for versatility is none too bad. I can't remember what the rules are for drawing and dropping shields, but i seem to recall that a butler can be worn while using a two handed weapon, at the expence of its defence bonus. It's true, a Butler can be worn while using a two handed weapon, but only for the purposes of keeping the paladin's longsword well shined, announcing the Paladin's presence and making the Tea. Please let it be known that Man from Uncle is currently in China teaching english. Although I have no doubt he'll be a good teacher, I fear there may be many roleplaying Chinese tourists struggling desperately to purchase a +4 Butler upon their first foray into european D&D. Good work Beaze! :D
pres_man 01-03-05, 01:13 PM	How about going range for the paladin? Mounted archery is pretty cool. You can take a full attack even if your mount is running.
Lorentz 01-03-05, 05:13 PM	Longsword + shield is best I think (unless you've no other heavy hitter in your group). The ultimate weapon for a Pal is a Holy Avenger of course. BTW, currently I'm playing a 1/2-Elf Paladin, whose primary weapon is a composite longbow :D (and yes he has high Dex instead of Str of course ;))
Draco Strang 01-03-05, 09:03 PM	Originally posted by vegeta 7835: You see, I don't see why ANY character, let alone a Paladin, would two-hand a weapon (such as a longsword). I mean, you get 1-2 more points of damage, but with no feats to increase your potential in two-handed fighting I don't see any reason to take it. I mean, having a shield would make you have a little less damage (unless I am missing something and you can take feats that improve a TH warrior's capabilities) but would instead give you a large increase in Armor Class. I mean, max level you would have a +5 enchanted shield PLUS the base bonus from the shield of +1 and up--not to mention the special abilities that can be on a shield. First of all, do you mean greatsword? the 2d6 damage from a greatsword is lots more attractive than 1d8. Higher damage throughout the scale. Sure, you can wield a shield and be a tank, but you can also houserule a feat tree not-unlike two weapon defense, (maybe call it two handed defense or something?). This would give you an AC bonus from the greatsword, yes, but it also ties up valuable feats that the paladin has to put into it. After all, he's not getting a feat every other level like the fighter does. Also, playing a paladin with a sword and shield is so cliche it's not even funny. That's exactly what the chick in the PHB has, and every other paladin I've ever seen. Personally, for flavor reasons I like to mix it up, and give the paladin a spiked chain, or a greataxe, or even a waraxe and shield. Something to set him apart from every other Joe Paladin. Honestly, what's cooler? "You see a white, anglo-saxon male astride a brown horse, bedecked in full-plate, bearing a longsword and a heavy steel shield with a red cross on the surface" or "You see a virtuous gnome amid the horde of kobolds, smiting them into oblivion with his heavy pick, all the while turning blows with his buckler and suit of mithral maille." If your player REALLY wants to use a two handed grip on a weapon, give him a bastard sword, and take the EWP for it, so he can single hand it if he feels the need for a shield on occasion. There...ya get 1d10 damage, the option to dual wield and add more STR damage, and the ability to pick up a shield any day of the week. Hope this helps.
eudas 01-04-05, 02:08 PM	I play a Fighter/Paladin, and most of the time he goes with sword/shield. However, when the shield is not available, or when he wants to do extra damage, he often finds himself dropping the shield and just using the longsword two-handed, for the 1.5xstr bonus and for the Power Attack goodness. "A little from column A, a little from column B." -- Grandpa Simpson eudas
Thoronmir 01-04-05, 02:23 PM	Ya know, this is one of those situations when, as a DM, I really couldn’t give a rat’s *** what the Paladin chose for his fighting style. If your player is truly “in LOVE” with the image of using a long sword two-handed, why discourage him? I’m pleased to see a player opt for a weapon based on his character concept rather than the Character Optimization board. Huzzah for your player!:cheer:
Dunelord 01-04-05, 02:47 PM	I would say take a greatsword and improved buckler defence from the Complete Warrior. It is negative one to hit; BUT that isn't so bad since it allows you have an average damage of 7 with your weapon, +1 to AC from you shiled which is only one less then the highist you can get of +2, no armor check penailty from your shiled once you have a masterwork buckler. As to the armor spikes even if your not going to go the TWF feat tree they still aren't a bad idea, although it might be hard to get your dexterity high enough to take all of them.
Prachett 01-04-05, 03:13 PM	I use a bastard sword and shield. The shield is not neccessarily for the AC but for perks like resistances and the like. If I don't need the shield I just go 2-handed with the bastard sword.
danielinthewolvesden 01-04-05, 06:14 PM	I would say take a greatsword and improved buckler defence from the Complete Warrior. . "Improved Buckler Defence" does NOT work with a Two handed Weapon. Just with TWF. Thoronmir- I agree- having a Pally carry a longsword which he sometimes uses two handed, and sometimes uses with a shield is a nice RPing point. Prachett- I used to go for Pally's and Bast Sword meself. But it's not worth it if the Pally has to pay a feat for the Bast Sw. Not only do you spend the feat, but then you often give up th euse of other, better weapons you mind find elsewhere. Being a "generalist" warrior type in a party of Specialists often nets one some cool items. Now, if you use UA and Weapon Groups, then.....
Father Dale 01-04-05, 09:23 PM	I'm currently playing a paladin who uses the longsword and the shield. Its very versatile. I can weild the sword two handed if I like or use the sheild and weild the sword in one hand. A bastard sword would be better (1d10 is better than 1d8), but its not at all worth spending a precious feat on. A paladin can do lots of damage against the right opponents without weilding a weapon two handed. Smite and Divine Might work the same whether it is one handed or two handed, and that is the paladin's bread and butter. Plus, I don't want to waste a smite attempt by taking a big power attack negative and missing all together; thus, two handing it loses some of its luster at times. Still though, by using the long sword and buckler or small sheild, I can drop the sheild when I need to and go two handed for the 1 1/2 strength and the x2 power attacks. Versatility is good. And then I add Divine Sacrifice, too. Get an extra 1d6 damage for every 2 hps you sacrifice, up to taking off 10hps to do an extra 5d6 on a single attack. Against evil opponents with low AC, I can do tremendous damage by two handing the long sword, taking a moderate Power Attack, Smiting, Divine Mighting, and Diving Sacrificing. For example, an 8th lvl paladin with 14 str and 18 cha using a long sword two handed can take a -4 power attack, smite, divine might, and divine sacrifice and do 1d8+17+5d6 (avg 39). The -4 power attack is cancelled out by the +4 to hit from smiting. Feats I took or am planning to take are Power Attack, Cleave, Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Divine Might, Extra Smiting, and Spirited Charge. Point is, the longsword is a great weapon for the Paladin as it can be used one or two handed, does decent damage, and has a good crit threat range.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 01-04-05, 10:01 PM	I'd be happy if my players could play a paladin with out violating its code inside of three sessions. But that's life, I guess. Secondly, shouldn't this thread be on said Character Optimization boards? I mean it is basically a disscussion on how to maximise the combat output of our fine pally friends. And now back on topic: All styles of combat can be equally effective. A paladin using Whirlwind Attack with a greatsword while smiting, using Divine Might and Divine Sacrifice, on a bunch of evil outsiders...quite frankly is disgusting. Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave are nothing to shake a stick at either. And, well, if you see a hydra you'd had better have the Improved Sunder feat, with a fire or acid weapon. As for sword and board style, I'm reminded of some dwarven defenders I made for a higher level game once. Lets just say tower shields work extremely well with dancing weapons. High AC is nice, but nothing quite compares with the feeling of safety 3ed cover gives. 3.5 aint bad either. Also, the sword and board method allows for finessing. If you can hold a shield and use an elven thinblade (CW), with a Dex that is extreme, then, well, you're laughing. Ranged smite is also nice for this (bows, high Dex => good mix). Alternatively, with a few feats one could use TWF and Two Weapon Defense. And lastly, my favorite type of paladin: the paladin charging in on his/her mount. This paladin is wearing some nice rhino hide armour, and has the feats Spirited Charge, Trample, and Rideby Attack. Our lovely defender of truth and justice is also wielding a knockback lance and looks forward to one day taking levels in the Cavelier PRC. Cheers.
Bluntpencil2001 01-06-05, 06:58 PM	As always I will vouch for equipping the paladin with a lance, with a backup longsword. Go Cavalier. But PLEASE don't take rhino hide armour! It may increase damage by the truckload, but a knight in shining rhino skin is never how I've pictured paladins. Lances rule. They are stylish, cool, have an amazingly high damage output, not to mention that you can take your shield too!
Dunelord 01-09-05, 03:40 AM	"Improved Buckler Defence" does NOT work with a Two handed Weapon. Just with TWF. Why not? A two handed weapon has to be wielded in two hands, thus your making an attack with a weapon in your off hand. If you have a buckler on you take a negative one to hit and loose the AC bonus to hit if you attack with while useing a 2 handed weapon. See the 3.5 PHB page 124 under the description of a buckler. This feats gets ride of those and never says ANYTHING about two weapon fighting. If two weapon fighting was what it was built for wouldn't it bring it up? It's not a requirement for the feat and not brought up in the benfits or the normal description. Further more the problem it solves is one that can be occured while wielding either two weapon, a 2 handed weapon, or a one handed weapon in two hands so why could it be solved by the feat? If you have some FAQ or such to back you up on this please let me know.