First go at a Sorcerer [Archive] - Wizards Community

First go at a Sorcerer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bromsby_Tarken
04-13-08, 11:27 PM Hey Folks!

I am new to the forums, actually this is my first post! I had a couple questions that I would love get some answers from some folks that maybe have a bit more experience then me.

I want to play a sorcerer who specializes in 2 things. I want to be able to mess with peoples minds. I want to either control them or strongly influence some of their actions. (i.e. we meet 2 bugbears and I convince one of them that he could help his friend defeat us more by going and getting some wood so that he can build a big club. Even though the woods are a mile away.)

Or

I had always wanted to have a vampire under my control. Maybe some kind of Chaotic Neutral necromancer or something.

In all this I don't want to completely nullify myself as I am the only arcane spell caster in the party.

In one final side note; the current DM is only allowing the core books. And I am to make a level 8 character.

I hope that I didint make this too hard or confusing.

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

Bromsby
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."
MergedLoki
04-14-08, 03:42 AM for a necromancer idea. if thats a route you REALLY wanna go, do it with a cleric. i speak from personal experience in this. arcane necros suck... they get the raise undead ability way later than a cleric does. and they have less to do with commanding/controlling undead and more with draining life essences either for themselves or to weaken/dmg. an enemy. not so much about the whole 'controlling' aspect.
not to mention if you're an evil cleric you get rebuke/command undead right off the bat.

as for the mind controlling one, thats pretty simple. Just take a bunch of enchantment style spells (hold person, charm person), backed with a few illusions maybe. and if your the partys main arcane fire power, every spell level throw in at least one decent direct damage spell (flame sphere, acid arrow etc. for level 2), lightning bolt/fireball for level 3. and so on.
that way you've got your character made up the way you want him (mind warping spells) but you've got some straight up damage spells to help wear down enemies that maybe are resistant to mind affecting things.
runestar
04-14-08, 04:35 AM For the enchanter bit, see if you can get your DM to allow the beguiler class from PHB2. It is basically a sorc-type class specializing in enchantment and illusion spells, and has some roguish skills such as trapfinding and social skills as well.

As for the necromaner, the dread necro from heroes of horror is not too bad, as it specializes around you crafting your own undead minions (somewhat).
DrMorganes
04-14-08, 09:22 AM 2nd vote for Beguiler. I had a Level 6 beguiler neutralize the entire crew (execpt the captain, but that's what the rest of the party was for :D ) of a ship with two spells.

Class Highlights:
They've got a great spell list, but even better is the fact that they know ALL the spells on that list. Beats the pants off your piddly sorcerer spells known.
Spontaneous caster, just like a sorcerer.
Useful class features - of which the sorcerer has none.
Advanced Learning allows you to add an Enchantment or Illusion spell of your choice from the Sor/Wiz list to your list. I recommend Distract Assailant as your first pick...
INT-based casting synergizes well with secondary role as skill monkey.
Far better list of class skills, 6 skill points per level. Has the skill points to be the party "face" and still find traps & scout as well or better than a pure rogue
No Arcane Spell Failure while wearing Light Armor
Better HD (d6 vs d4)

Lowlights:
Wizard's BAB (same as the Sorcerer, so no loss there)
Hard-coded focus on Illusion and Enchantment spells. Has a few useful combat spells, but the class is called Beguiler, not Blaster, for a reason.

Arcane necromancers suck. Definitely go with a neutral cleric able to channel negative energy if you want to go that way. Neutral alignment minimizes issues with other party members. Negative energy channeling allows you to rebuke/control undead instead of turning or destroying them.
RobbyPants
04-14-08, 03:09 PM If it weren't a core only game, I'd also suggest the beguiler. Other than that, most of what will make your character useful is the spell selection. Try to have a vast array of different types of spells. A few charm types will let you control others. Crowd control is a great way to keep enemies off of you. A small amount of direct damage can be nice, but don't overdo it. For an 8th level caster, here's a sample core-only list I might use.

Level 1: Enlarge Person, Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Charm Person

Level 2: Web, Glitterdust, Scorching Ray (or Detect Thoughts)

Level 3: Suggestion, Haste (or Slow)

Level 4: Evard's Black Tenticles
LSMFT
04-14-08, 05:21 PM You just want a vampire under your control? This is possible core only, with the leadership feat, but you'd have to be fairly high level to do it.

As far as the guy who mess with minds, Robby has a good list.

I think I'd drop Charm Person for the 3rd-level Charm Monster (In lieu of Haste, though it is good for your allies.)

Evard's is one of the best spells, but for you, I think I'd go with Enervation: it debuffs opponents, which can lower their saves. Enchantment is filled with Will saves.
Bromsby_Tarken
04-14-08, 05:59 PM So I got the DM to approve the Beguiler! :)

How do you suggest I set him up as a level 8? Feats? Skills?

Any thoughts? I want to be more of a controlling/negotiator type.

The stats that I rolled are: 10 14 16 16 12 16

Thanks!

Bromsby
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
DrMorganes
04-15-08, 09:35 AM Woot!

Stats: (nice ones, by the way)

STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 16 <-- Level 4 & Level 8 increases here.
WIS: 14
CHA: 16

Play with STR, CON, and WIS if you wish. Keep your 16s in DEX, INT, and CHA. You're an INT-based caster, so you want that as high as possible. Improving DEX improves both your AC and your initiative, which in turn boosts your save DCs via Cloaked Casting. CHA helps with your Feints and social skills.

Skills:

Bluff: Max ranks. Beguilers can Feint as a move action beginning at Level 6, so you'll want to keep this high to take advantage of the DC boosts from Cloaked Casting. Also comes in useful for a lot of stuff during social interactions. (see comments below)
Concentration: You're a spellcaster. Max ranks in this are pretty much required.
Diplomacy: Max ranks if you're going to be the party's face. If someone else has this covered, replace with something else.
Gather Information: Put enough ranks into this for a +15 bonus.
Knowledge (Arcana): Useful for identifying all sorts of things. Put enough ranks into this for at least a +20 bonus.
Sense Motive: The flip side of conning someone is make sure you don't get conned. Max ranks if you're the Face, +15 bonus otherwise.
Spellcraft: Depends on how magic-y you want to be. As a spontaneous caster with an impressive spell list, you don't get the mileage out of Spellcraft that a wizard does. If you go UMD, add 5 ranks here for the synergy bonus.

With your INT, you have enough skill points to max out two additional skills (3 if you're playing a human). Tumble is always useful. Getting away from your opponents is important, and Tumble can also be used in place of Jump in certain circumstances. Use Magic Device is hugely useful as well, and at Level 8 with your CHA you'll be activating wands 70% of the time. Search is useful on many levels, but if the party doesn't have another rogue, you have the added benefit of Trapfinding. If you go this route, ranks in Disable Device may be in order as well. Ranks in Hide and Move Silently can be helpful, but you have both Silence and Invisibility on your spell list. Since you want to focus on social stuff, I think it's safe to say you can ignore those two for now.

Feats:

I have a Level 6 beguiler in a play-by-post game. Here's her feat list:
Human Bonus Feat: Eschew Materials
Level 1: Spell Focus (Illusion)
Level 3: Improved Initiative (for Cloaked Casting goodness!)
Level 5 beguiler bonus feat: Silent Spell
Level 6 Spell Focus (Enchantment)

This boosts her spell DCs for most of spells by 1 in all instances, and by 2 when Cloaked Casting applies.

Advanced Learning:

Level 3 add: Distract Assailant. A Swift spell from Complete Adventurer (probably in the Spell Compendium as well) that makes the target flat-footed until the start of its next turn. Since your DM has already approved a non-core class (and by implication the non-core spells on the begulier spell list), see if you can get him to allow this as well. I've used it to great effect after blowing my initiative check. Remember that most melee types have crummy Will Saves... :devil:

Level 7 add: Dunno... you have a few options of the Core Sor/Wiz list:
2nd Level: Hideous Laughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm) or Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm) are decent offensive spells.
3rd Level: Heroism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroism.htm) and Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rage.htm) are nice party buffs. Rage is particularly nice because it lasts for as long as you concentrate and doesn't cause fatigue when it expires, and it affects multiple party members (2 at your level, 3 at level 9).

Comments on Feinting:

At first blush it may seem as though this is not a good idea. Your opponent gets to add BAB to their Sense Motive roll to oppose your feint. If you fail, you could be in trouble... However, in most cases your opponent won't have much of a Sense Motive bonus. Pure melee types don't focus overmuch on mental stats, and so will have either no bonus or a penalty here. Sense Motive is also not on the class skill list for many melee classes - which generally have better places to spend skill points. Even a full BAB progression doesn't scale as quickly as your skill ranks. At level 8, you'll have a minimum +14 bonus to your Bluff Check (+11 from max Bluff ranks, +3 from your CHA bonus). Most melee types will have a +8 (from BAB) to their Sense Motive. Clerics, Paladins, Monks, Druids, and Swordsages are an exception here. All of these classes use WIS for various class-related features. Of them, however, generally only clerics, monks, and swordsages will have ranks in Sense Motive. If you're going toe to toe with one of these, however, your best bet is a 5' step and Invisibility.

Overall, only another socially focused character is going to have a decent chance of matching your Bluff Check. Even if you totally blow your check, most opponents will have a 30% of failing their opposed roll. Be sure to remind your DM that a 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure, nor is a 20 an automatic success.
Bromsby_Tarken
04-18-08, 01:15 AM Thanks so much for all the input!

I am rolling him up right now. Kind of weird doing a character sheet for a non core class. Seems a lot different to me.

I will post him when I am done. Let you all see what I got. And then you can critique me :)
DrMorganes
04-18-08, 09:12 AM If you find yourself posting a lot of characters online, pop over to www.myth-weavers.com and create a free account. Their Overfiend character system is a great way to keep track of your characters. You can even share read-only versions to the rest of the world, like this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=34564).

(Brandy is the beguiler I referenced in my earlier post.)
Bromsby_Tarken
04-18-08, 12:41 PM Awesome! I will do that.

I found out that we are to make a level 9 instead of 8. What should be my 4th feat?
pawtucket_pat
04-18-08, 01:12 PM Quick correction on Morganes build: your primary casting stat is Charisma, not Intelligence (unless I missed something), so you'll want to put your Level 4 and 8 increases into Charisma instead of Intelligence.
Bromsby_Tarken
04-18-08, 01:18 PM Yeah,

I am actually making a beguiler now. Which is INT based.
RobbyPants
04-18-08, 01:40 PM Awesome! I will do that.

I found out that we are to make a level 9 instead of 8. What should be my 4th feat?
When in doubt, Skill Focus(Concentration) could always be a good choice. If you have enough skill points to also take Use Magic Device*, I'd consider maxing that skill out, and you could instead take Skill Focus for that.

* I'm away from my books, and I believe the beguiler has Use Magic Device as a class skill. I could be wrong.
DrMorganes
04-18-08, 03:33 PM Quick correction on Morganes build: your primary casting stat is Charisma, not Intelligence (unless I missed something), so you'll want to put your Level 4 and 8 increases into Charisma instead of Intelligence.

Incorrect. Beguilers are INT-based spontaneous casters, made of win and awesomeness. :D

Bromsby_Tarken: Which feats have you taken so far, and which sources is your DM allowing?

Metamagic feats are always nice, though they increase spontaneous casting to a full-round action. A few options here:
Heighten Spell strikes me as particularly useful for beguilers. There's little in the way of damage spells on their list, but plenty of Save or Suck/Save or Die types of spells. Heighten Spell raises the effective level of the spell, and therefore increases the save DC.
Greater Spell Focus for Illusion or Enchantment will add +1 to all save DCs for spells in the school.
Sculpt Spell allows you to change the shape of area effect spells, and beguilers have quite a few spells with circular areas. Being able to adjust that to a cone, line, cylinder, or multiple 10' cubes can give you a serious tactical advantage.
Enlarge Spell extends the range of your spell. Many beguiler spells have Short range, so this can keep you out of easy combat range.

Use Magic Device (aka UMD) is always useful skill, but rarely requires much more than a +15 bonus unless you want to do truly amazing things, like use a Holy Avenger. Skill Focus (UMD) is probably not the best option.

Skill Focus (Concentration) is always a safe choice for spellcasting classes. Failing a Concentration Check brings a pretty hefty penalty: loss of the spell you were trying to cast. A single spell can make the difference between success and a total party wipeout.
RobbyPants
04-18-08, 03:54 PM Use Magic Device (aka UMD) is always useful skill, but rarely requires much more than a +15 bonus unless you want to do truly amazing things, like use a Holy Avenger. Skill Focus (UMD) is probably not the best option.
I guess it depends on the scope of the campaign. The OP was asking for a 9th level choice. At that point (12 ranks max), it will be useful for using wands reliably. If the game runs much higher, I agree, it will be a wasted feat. He'll eventually be able to succeed without it 100% of the time.

Skill Focus (Concentration) is always a safe choice for spellcasting classes. Failing a Concentration Check brings a pretty hefty penalty: loss of the spell you were trying to cast. A single spell can make the difference between success and a total party wipeout.
I do feel this is a better choice (more often than not) which is why I listed it first.
Bromsby_Tarken
04-18-08, 05:14 PM I am a 9th level half-elf. The ones that I have currently are:

Improved Inititive

Spell Focus (Enchanment)

Spell Focus (Illusion)

Silent Spell (Which is free)

I believe I get 4 feats at this point. So I am not sure what else to do.
Dragonsblood
04-19-08, 01:56 AM Greater Spell Focus?
psionichamster
04-19-08, 10:12 AM first off, hooray for beguiler.

2nd off, your feats look good.

if you want higher dc's, i would agree with the above suggested greater SF:Enchantment.

OR....

consider maxing out spellcraft if your DM allows you to take "Rapid Metamagic" from the complete mage (iirc)...no increase of time when metamagic-feating spells.

then take extend spell in place of something else...SF:Illusion would be my choice.

round about now, you're going to start seeing lots of 10 min/lvl spells that are awful nice to have up for a long time...see invis, haste, spiderclimb, invisibility, invis sphere, mage armor (although wear a mithral breastplate +howevermuchyoucanafford...much better protection)...

and finally:
Max Bluff, get a circlet of persuasion, make sure you have the synergizing skills noted: intimidate, diplomacy, sleight of hand, and disguise.

then cast Glibness. hooray +30 to your bluff check, all for 1 3rd lvl spell (4th for extended for 180 min...3 hrs of "i can lie to everyone with impunity")

if possible (probably not), try to get into the Mindbender class from Complete Arcane...1 lvl dip (around 6th would be optimal) nets you delayed Advanced Learning (so 4th lvl spell if you want it), full spellcasting, some save bonuses, and Telepathy 100'.

if not, the Beguiler is plenty strong on his own...

as far as the enchantment/domination route...be sure to get the baddies before your party draws weapons (+5 to will save sucks) and be sure to communicate which ones are "yours"...(auto dispelling your charms by whacking him also sucks)

have fun
-the hamster
Bromsby_Tarken
04-19-08, 05:28 PM Is there a way for me to post my character as a pdf for people to look at?

**Edit

Here is the link: http://www.gigtronics.com/bob/blake_character_sheet.pdf
Dragonsblood
04-19-08, 08:44 PM I'd switch his con and dex, or make him a full elf.
Bromsby_Tarken
04-20-08, 11:58 PM Am I wrong? Greater SF does not add to spell dc's, it adds to your save against that particular school.
RobbyPants
04-21-08, 09:18 AM I'm not going to say you can't play a half elf, but my favorite two races for beguilers are either human or grey elf.

The grey elf is nice for the +2 bonus to Int, and +2 Dex is nice too. The only real downside is the -2 penalty you take to Con.

Humans are always nice for the extra feat and skill point.

Either way, you'll end up with the same amount of skill points. Ultimately, I tend to choose human, because that extra feat is generally too useful to pass up. That, and the Con penalty makes the grey elf less attractive.
Sunic_Flames
04-21-08, 11:59 AM Either way, you'll end up with the same amount of skill points. Ultimately, I tend to choose human, because that extra feat is generally too useful to pass up. That, and the Con penalty makes the grey elf less attractive.

+1.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bromsby_Tarken 04-13-08, 11:27 PM	Hey Folks! I am new to the forums, actually this is my first post! I had a couple questions that I would love get some answers from some folks that maybe have a bit more experience then me. I want to play a sorcerer who specializes in 2 things. I want to be able to mess with peoples minds. I want to either control them or strongly influence some of their actions. (i.e. we meet 2 bugbears and I convince one of them that he could help his friend defeat us more by going and getting some wood so that he can build a big club. Even though the woods are a mile away.) Or I had always wanted to have a vampire under my control. Maybe some kind of Chaotic Neutral necromancer or something. In all this I don't want to completely nullify myself as I am the only arcane spell caster in the party. In one final side note; the current DM is only allowing the core books. And I am to make a level 8 character. I hope that I didint make this too hard or confusing. Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. Bromsby "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
MergedLoki 04-14-08, 03:42 AM	for a necromancer idea. if thats a route you REALLY wanna go, do it with a cleric. i speak from personal experience in this. arcane necros suck... they get the raise undead ability way later than a cleric does. and they have less to do with commanding/controlling undead and more with draining life essences either for themselves or to weaken/dmg. an enemy. not so much about the whole 'controlling' aspect. not to mention if you're an evil cleric you get rebuke/command undead right off the bat. as for the mind controlling one, thats pretty simple. Just take a bunch of enchantment style spells (hold person, charm person), backed with a few illusions maybe. and if your the partys main arcane fire power, every spell level throw in at least one decent direct damage spell (flame sphere, acid arrow etc. for level 2), lightning bolt/fireball for level 3. and so on. that way you've got your character made up the way you want him (mind warping spells) but you've got some straight up damage spells to help wear down enemies that maybe are resistant to mind affecting things.
runestar 04-14-08, 04:35 AM	For the enchanter bit, see if you can get your DM to allow the beguiler class from PHB2. It is basically a sorc-type class specializing in enchantment and illusion spells, and has some roguish skills such as trapfinding and social skills as well. As for the necromaner, the dread necro from heroes of horror is not too bad, as it specializes around you crafting your own undead minions (somewhat).
DrMorganes 04-14-08, 09:22 AM	2nd vote for Beguiler. I had a Level 6 beguiler neutralize the entire crew (execpt the captain, but that's what the rest of the party was for :D ) of a ship with two spells. Class Highlights: They've got a great spell list, but even better is the fact that they know ALL the spells on that list. Beats the pants off your piddly sorcerer spells known. Spontaneous caster, just like a sorcerer. Useful class features - of which the sorcerer has none. Advanced Learning allows you to add an Enchantment or Illusion spell of your choice from the Sor/Wiz list to your list. I recommend Distract Assailant as your first pick... INT-based casting synergizes well with secondary role as skill monkey. Far better list of class skills, 6 skill points per level. Has the skill points to be the party "face" and still find traps & scout as well or better than a pure rogue No Arcane Spell Failure while wearing Light Armor Better HD (d6 vs d4) Lowlights: Wizard's BAB (same as the Sorcerer, so no loss there) Hard-coded focus on Illusion and Enchantment spells. Has a few useful combat spells, but the class is called Beguiler, not Blaster, for a reason. Arcane necromancers suck. Definitely go with a neutral cleric able to channel negative energy if you want to go that way. Neutral alignment minimizes issues with other party members. Negative energy channeling allows you to rebuke/control undead instead of turning or destroying them.
RobbyPants 04-14-08, 03:09 PM	If it weren't a core only game, I'd also suggest the beguiler. Other than that, most of what will make your character useful is the spell selection. Try to have a vast array of different types of spells. A few charm types will let you control others. Crowd control is a great way to keep enemies off of you. A small amount of direct damage can be nice, but don't overdo it. For an 8th level caster, here's a sample core-only list I might use. Level 1: Enlarge Person, Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Charm Person Level 2: Web, Glitterdust, Scorching Ray (or Detect Thoughts) Level 3: Suggestion, Haste (or Slow) Level 4: Evard's Black Tenticles
LSMFT 04-14-08, 05:21 PM	You just want a vampire under your control? This is possible core only, with the leadership feat, but you'd have to be fairly high level to do it. As far as the guy who mess with minds, Robby has a good list. I think I'd drop Charm Person for the 3rd-level Charm Monster (In lieu of Haste, though it is good for your allies.) Evard's is one of the best spells, but for you, I think I'd go with Enervation: it debuffs opponents, which can lower their saves. Enchantment is filled with Will saves.
Bromsby_Tarken 04-14-08, 05:59 PM	So I got the DM to approve the Beguiler! :) How do you suggest I set him up as a level 8? Feats? Skills? Any thoughts? I want to be more of a controlling/negotiator type. The stats that I rolled are: 10 14 16 16 12 16 Thanks! Bromsby "I reject your reality and substitute my own"
DrMorganes 04-15-08, 09:35 AM	Woot! Stats: (nice ones, by the way) STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 16 <-- Level 4 & Level 8 increases here. WIS: 14 CHA: 16 Play with STR, CON, and WIS if you wish. Keep your 16s in DEX, INT, and CHA. You're an INT-based caster, so you want that as high as possible. Improving DEX improves both your AC and your initiative, which in turn boosts your save DCs via Cloaked Casting. CHA helps with your Feints and social skills. Skills: Bluff: Max ranks. Beguilers can Feint as a move action beginning at Level 6, so you'll want to keep this high to take advantage of the DC boosts from Cloaked Casting. Also comes in useful for a lot of stuff during social interactions. (see comments below) Concentration: You're a spellcaster. Max ranks in this are pretty much required. Diplomacy: Max ranks if you're going to be the party's face. If someone else has this covered, replace with something else. Gather Information: Put enough ranks into this for a +15 bonus. Knowledge (Arcana): Useful for identifying all sorts of things. Put enough ranks into this for at least a +20 bonus. Sense Motive: The flip side of conning someone is make sure you don't get conned. Max ranks if you're the Face, +15 bonus otherwise. Spellcraft: Depends on how magic-y you want to be. As a spontaneous caster with an impressive spell list, you don't get the mileage out of Spellcraft that a wizard does. If you go UMD, add 5 ranks here for the synergy bonus. With your INT, you have enough skill points to max out two additional skills (3 if you're playing a human). Tumble is always useful. Getting away from your opponents is important, and Tumble can also be used in place of Jump in certain circumstances. Use Magic Device is hugely useful as well, and at Level 8 with your CHA you'll be activating wands 70% of the time. Search is useful on many levels, but if the party doesn't have another rogue, you have the added benefit of Trapfinding. If you go this route, ranks in Disable Device may be in order as well. Ranks in Hide and Move Silently can be helpful, but you have both Silence and Invisibility on your spell list. Since you want to focus on social stuff, I think it's safe to say you can ignore those two for now. Feats: I have a Level 6 beguiler in a play-by-post game. Here's her feat list: Human Bonus Feat: Eschew Materials Level 1: Spell Focus (Illusion) Level 3: Improved Initiative (for Cloaked Casting goodness!) Level 5 beguiler bonus feat: Silent Spell Level 6 Spell Focus (Enchantment) This boosts her spell DCs for most of spells by 1 in all instances, and by 2 when Cloaked Casting applies. Advanced Learning: Level 3 add: Distract Assailant. A Swift spell from Complete Adventurer (probably in the Spell Compendium as well) that makes the target flat-footed until the start of its next turn. Since your DM has already approved a non-core class (and by implication the non-core spells on the begulier spell list), see if you can get him to allow this as well. I've used it to great effect after blowing my initiative check. Remember that most melee types have crummy Will Saves... :devil: Level 7 add: Dunno... you have a few options of the Core Sor/Wiz list: 2nd Level: Hideous Laughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm) or Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm) are decent offensive spells. 3rd Level: Heroism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroism.htm) and Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rage.htm) are nice party buffs. Rage is particularly nice because it lasts for as long as you concentrate and doesn't cause fatigue when it expires, and it affects multiple party members (2 at your level, 3 at level 9). Comments on Feinting: At first blush it may seem as though this is not a good idea. Your opponent gets to add BAB to their Sense Motive roll to oppose your feint. If you fail, you could be in trouble... However, in most cases your opponent won't have much of a Sense Motive bonus. Pure melee types don't focus overmuch on mental stats, and so will have either no bonus or a penalty here. Sense Motive is also not on the class skill list for many melee classes - which generally have better places to spend skill points. Even a full BAB progression doesn't scale as quickly as your skill ranks. At level 8, you'll have a minimum +14 bonus to your Bluff Check (+11 from max Bluff ranks, +3 from your CHA bonus). Most melee types will have a +8 (from BAB) to their Sense Motive. Clerics, Paladins, Monks, Druids, and Swordsages are an exception here. All of these classes use WIS for various class-related features. Of them, however, generally only clerics, monks, and swordsages will have ranks in Sense Motive. If you're going toe to toe with one of these, however, your best bet is a 5' step and Invisibility. Overall, only another socially focused character is going to have a decent chance of matching your Bluff Check. Even if you totally blow your check, most opponents will have a 30% of failing their opposed roll. Be sure to remind your DM that a 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure, nor is a 20 an automatic success.
Bromsby_Tarken 04-18-08, 01:15 AM	Thanks so much for all the input! I am rolling him up right now. Kind of weird doing a character sheet for a non core class. Seems a lot different to me. I will post him when I am done. Let you all see what I got. And then you can critique me :)
DrMorganes 04-18-08, 09:12 AM	If you find yourself posting a lot of characters online, pop over to www.myth-weavers.com and create a free account. Their Overfiend character system is a great way to keep track of your characters. You can even share read-only versions to the rest of the world, like this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=34564). (Brandy is the beguiler I referenced in my earlier post.)
Bromsby_Tarken 04-18-08, 12:41 PM	Awesome! I will do that. I found out that we are to make a level 9 instead of 8. What should be my 4th feat?
pawtucket_pat 04-18-08, 01:12 PM	Quick correction on Morganes build: your primary casting stat is Charisma, not Intelligence (unless I missed something), so you'll want to put your Level 4 and 8 increases into Charisma instead of Intelligence.
Bromsby_Tarken 04-18-08, 01:18 PM	Yeah, I am actually making a beguiler now. Which is INT based.
RobbyPants 04-18-08, 01:40 PM	Awesome! I will do that. I found out that we are to make a level 9 instead of 8. What should be my 4th feat? When in doubt, Skill Focus(Concentration) could always be a good choice. If you have enough skill points to also take Use Magic Device, I'd consider maxing that skill out, and you could instead take Skill Focus for that. I'm away from my books, and I believe the beguiler has Use Magic Device as a class skill. I could be wrong.
DrMorganes 04-18-08, 03:33 PM	Quick correction on Morganes build: your primary casting stat is Charisma, not Intelligence (unless I missed something), so you'll want to put your Level 4 and 8 increases into Charisma instead of Intelligence. Incorrect. Beguilers are INT-based spontaneous casters, made of win and awesomeness. :D Bromsby_Tarken: Which feats have you taken so far, and which sources is your DM allowing? Metamagic feats are always nice, though they increase spontaneous casting to a full-round action. A few options here: Heighten Spell strikes me as particularly useful for beguilers. There's little in the way of damage spells on their list, but plenty of Save or Suck/Save or Die types of spells. Heighten Spell raises the effective level of the spell, and therefore increases the save DC. Greater Spell Focus for Illusion or Enchantment will add +1 to all save DCs for spells in the school. Sculpt Spell allows you to change the shape of area effect spells, and beguilers have quite a few spells with circular areas. Being able to adjust that to a cone, line, cylinder, or multiple 10' cubes can give you a serious tactical advantage. Enlarge Spell extends the range of your spell. Many beguiler spells have Short range, so this can keep you out of easy combat range. Use Magic Device (aka UMD) is always useful skill, but rarely requires much more than a +15 bonus unless you want to do truly amazing things, like use a Holy Avenger. Skill Focus (UMD) is probably not the best option. Skill Focus (Concentration) is always a safe choice for spellcasting classes. Failing a Concentration Check brings a pretty hefty penalty: loss of the spell you were trying to cast. A single spell can make the difference between success and a total party wipeout.
RobbyPants 04-18-08, 03:54 PM	Use Magic Device (aka UMD) is always useful skill, but rarely requires much more than a +15 bonus unless you want to do truly amazing things, like use a Holy Avenger. Skill Focus (UMD) is probably not the best option. I guess it depends on the scope of the campaign. The OP was asking for a 9th level choice. At that point (12 ranks max), it will be useful for using wands reliably. If the game runs much higher, I agree, it will be a wasted feat. He'll eventually be able to succeed without it 100% of the time. Skill Focus (Concentration) is always a safe choice for spellcasting classes. Failing a Concentration Check brings a pretty hefty penalty: loss of the spell you were trying to cast. A single spell can make the difference between success and a total party wipeout. I do feel this is a better choice (more often than not) which is why I listed it first.
Bromsby_Tarken 04-18-08, 05:14 PM	I am a 9th level half-elf. The ones that I have currently are: Improved Inititive Spell Focus (Enchanment) Spell Focus (Illusion) Silent Spell (Which is free) I believe I get 4 feats at this point. So I am not sure what else to do.
Dragonsblood 04-19-08, 01:56 AM	Greater Spell Focus?
psionichamster 04-19-08, 10:12 AM	first off, hooray for beguiler. 2nd off, your feats look good. if you want higher dc's, i would agree with the above suggested greater SF:Enchantment. OR.... consider maxing out spellcraft if your DM allows you to take "Rapid Metamagic" from the complete mage (iirc)...no increase of time when metamagic-feating spells. then take extend spell in place of something else...SF:Illusion would be my choice. round about now, you're going to start seeing lots of 10 min/lvl spells that are awful nice to have up for a long time...see invis, haste, spiderclimb, invisibility, invis sphere, mage armor (although wear a mithral breastplate +howevermuchyoucanafford...much better protection)... and finally: Max Bluff, get a circlet of persuasion, make sure you have the synergizing skills noted: intimidate, diplomacy, sleight of hand, and disguise. then cast Glibness. hooray +30 to your bluff check, all for 1 3rd lvl spell (4th for extended for 180 min...3 hrs of "i can lie to everyone with impunity") if possible (probably not), try to get into the Mindbender class from Complete Arcane...1 lvl dip (around 6th would be optimal) nets you delayed Advanced Learning (so 4th lvl spell if you want it), full spellcasting, some save bonuses, and Telepathy 100'. if not, the Beguiler is plenty strong on his own... as far as the enchantment/domination route...be sure to get the baddies before your party draws weapons (+5 to will save sucks) and be sure to communicate which ones are "yours"...(auto dispelling your charms by whacking him also sucks) have fun -the hamster
Bromsby_Tarken 04-19-08, 05:28 PM	Is there a way for me to post my character as a pdf for people to look at? **Edit Here is the link: http://www.gigtronics.com/bob/blake_character_sheet.pdf
Dragonsblood 04-19-08, 08:44 PM	I'd switch his con and dex, or make him a full elf.
Bromsby_Tarken 04-20-08, 11:58 PM	Am I wrong? Greater SF does not add to spell dc's, it adds to your save against that particular school.
RobbyPants 04-21-08, 09:18 AM	I'm not going to say you can't play a half elf, but my favorite two races for beguilers are either human or grey elf. The grey elf is nice for the +2 bonus to Int, and +2 Dex is nice too. The only real downside is the -2 penalty you take to Con. Humans are always nice for the extra feat and skill point. Either way, you'll end up with the same amount of skill points. Ultimately, I tend to choose human, because that extra feat is generally too useful to pass up. That, and the Con penalty makes the grey elf less attractive.
Sunic_Flames 04-21-08, 11:59 AM	Either way, you'll end up with the same amount of skill points. Ultimately, I tend to choose human, because that extra feat is generally too useful to pass up. That, and the Con penalty makes the grey elf less attractive. +1.