Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kilsek of Sheverash 05-27-04, 11:43 PM	I've never been a big fan of psionics... and then I looked through and actually read big sections of the Expanded PsHB 3.5 and I was like, well, wow, cool! Even all those races were very cool! So I'm thinking of playing my first psionic character, and I wanted to "keep it light" on the psionic powers for now, just to get my feet wet. All the races are really appealing, especially for their incredible and unique background stories and personalities - the PC races Maenad and the Elan were some of most creative and fun roleplaying flavor-filled reads I've had in ANY D&D manual! So I'm leaning towards an Elan or Maenad Soulknife or Pyschic Warrior. Any basic tips on how the Soulknife or Pyschic Warrior play, and why I might like or notice about one more than the other?
Moonstonedragon 05-27-04, 11:55 PM	Since you want to keep it light be a psywarrior they get very few spells and dont get to pick from much
Vaettyr 05-28-04, 12:09 AM	I'd lean towards Soulknife myself actually. They strike me as somewhat of Psion-flavored rogues. In terms of keeping it light, Soulknives don't actually get any powers, so it'd be really good for getting used to the mechanics of the new system (Psionic Focus, etc), plus they're psionic, so you get access to all the goodness of Psionic Feats, which can be a lot of fun. In terms of play, the best differentiation I can think of would be fighter or monk and rogue. Soulknives lend themselves to a sneaky character concept very well, especially with the ability to conceal a powerful weapon that can never be found if they don't want it to be. Soulknives can also make an effective martial build, but even then I think they'd lean towards more furtive ends. Psychic Warriors, on the other hand, are a much more adaptable class. With the right selection of powers and feats these guys have the adaptability of the Fighter, but with enough power to make them an interesting class choice well into the higher levels.
Edymnion 05-28-04, 12:15 AM	I've been looking into a Rogue 14/Soulknife 6 build myself. Psiwarrior is a bit like a Paladin without the god stuff. Kicks butt with weapons, and has some limited spellpower to back him up. Psion is, of course, like a Wizard. Soulknife is very Rogue-ish. Wilder is like a Sorcerer. If you want to go pure psionics though, I'd try a Soulknife/Psiwarrior, or a Soulknife/Wilder. The Psiwarrior bit for better front line combat, the Wilder for sneakier back row stuff.
Nihilism 05-28-04, 02:41 AM	If you are interested in running a psychic warrior you absolutely must read Wyvern Slayer's Psychic Warrior Guide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53738). He has produced a plethora of excellent builds for the psychic warrior.
Kilsek of Sheverash 05-28-04, 06:55 PM	Nihilish, thanks! That was a great read :D And so I've decided that if I do go Pyschic Warrior instead of Soulknife, I'll go with a two-handed weapon style character. Maybe not so charge attack-centric like the one in the guide, but I like the idea of a big greatsword and psionic power backing up some butt-kicking sword-swinging!
Dauntless 05-28-04, 07:33 PM	Soulknife is great in theory, but blah in execution. I love it flavor wise, but its power just doesn't stack up with most other combat oriented classes, and it doesn't have enough in the way of special abilities (monk) or other sources of damage (rogue with SA) to make it stay on par. That being said, I love the Psychic Warrior! If you want to have a bit of fun with your 2-handedness, try this: Half-Giant with oversized glaive. Expansion Stand Still Combat Reflexes. You're going to definately want to pick up Psionic Meditation at 5th level so you can use feats like Psychic Weapon/Deep Impact/etc/etc as often as possible.
Thorak 05-28-04, 08:38 PM	Originally posted by Dauntless Soulknife is great in theory, but blah in execution. I love it flavor wise, but its power just doesn't stack up with most other combat oriented classes, and it doesn't have enough in the way of special abilities (monk) or other sources of damage (rogue with SA) to make it stay on par. I have to disagree. The Psychic Strike ability does slightly more than half the damage of a SA (5d8 rather than 10d6 by 20th), but it's more reliable. First, SA needs to be dealt to something that loses it's dex bonus (I'm ignoring the critical hit requirement as roughly equal to PS's need for the target to be affectable by mind-affecting effects). PS has no similar requirement, nor does it have the 30' range requirement. With a 30' range incremment, the soulknife can be biffing his Mind Blade up to 150' away and dealing that damage. Besides, Psychic Strike takes a move-equivalent action to charge up. And then sticks around, forever, until used. Just make sure you take that move action every day you wake up, and after every fight, to keep 'er charged up for the first shot next fight. Not to mention, his Mindblade carries by 20th a +10 equivalent enchantment. A rogue biffing +10 daggers is just asking for the enemy to pick them up and run away with them. Which brings my to my next point; by 5th level, the Soulknife needs to be disarmed twice in a round to lose their weapon, and then only until the start of their next round. Same for Sunder. By 5th level, they can effectively Quickdraw their weapon once a round, regardless of how far they throw it, or whatever else happened to it. Bladewind is basically a free Whirlwind Attack feat, but without all the requirements many people grumble about needing. Though moving away from the Soulknife for a moment, look at the Pyrokineticist. Now, ignoring fire immune critters which clearly will eat this guy alive, look at the 3rd level ability Bolt of Fire. 1d6 damage, per class level. If this had just said per pyrokineticist level, it would be bad enough, with a 10d6 cap. But it says class level. 20d6 fire damage, no save, requiring only a ranged touch attack, once a round as often as you want? Sign me up! The range ain't great, but anyone within 60 feet is going to be feeling the hurt. And that's aside from the generically great weapon-boosting abilities the pyro's got. 4d6 extra damage per weapon by 13th level (given that you can get into Pyro at 5th level, and it's an 8th level ability of the class). Now, I'm thinking of making a 10/10 Soulknife/Pyro, getting into Pyro ASAP and then finishing the Soulknife afterwards. By 20th, he could either do his one good bolt attack for 20d6 fire damage, or mix his Mind Blade in as an off-hand/ranged weapon into his Full Attack, the Mind Blade dealing 1d6+7+4d6+5d8 on the first shot he gets with it that fight. And then he can fire one bolt, while re-charging the mind blade, once he finishes an enemy. That's an average of 45 damage, which isn't too shabby for a single attack, considering a sneak attack with a Flaming Shocking shortsword would average about the same. I ain't saying it's uber, but the possible RP of the character makes me all tingly. And the power level certainly seems to be good on paper.
Kilsek of Sheverash 05-28-04, 10:37 PM	Again, me wanting to go "light" on psionics for my first psionic character, I'm torn between the Psychic Warrior (some psionics), and the new Soulknife (little psionics). I guess I just see all sorts of options with the Psychic Warrior that I don't yet see with the Soulknife. So even though the "simpler" class of Soulknife would be a nice intro, I'm afraid it might bore me with a lack of options as I level in the class vs. the Psychic Warrior who at least picks up tons of variety in his powers choices. Am I way off here? Either way, I'm honestly very excited about the psionic races moreso than the classes... lol Great race writeups! And I'm just not yet familiar with what the classes are like... yet. Btw, isn't there a psionic power that lets the Pyschic Warrior morph his arm into a weapon just like the Soulknife? Does the power really suck in comparison? It sure looks cool as far as the artwork goes on one page of the EPsyHB :cool:
Jell_Moo 05-28-04, 11:01 PM	Originally posted by Thorak Now, ignoring fire immune critters which clearly will eat this guy alive, look at the 3rd level ability Bolt of Fire. 1d6 damage, per class level. If this had just said per pyrokineticist level, it would be bad enough, with a 10d6 cap. But it says class level. 20d6 fire damage, no save, requiring only a ranged touch attack, once a round as often as you want? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. By Class level, they mean levels in the Pyro class. If they had meant otherwise they would have said 1d6 damage per Character level. The difference is pretty big. As to the topic at hand, I would personally say that you should try a Wilder. Psions and Psychic Warriors are a little more complex, and require greater micromanagement of feats and powers. Wilders, on the other hand, are almost purely blasters. Pretty much blast away and have fun. I won't mention the Soulknife because I find it rather ugly. It's medium BAB is just too hurtful for a class that has nothing but melee ability.
Thorak 05-28-04, 11:37 PM	Originally posted by Jell_Moo I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. By Class level, they mean levels in the Pyro class. If they had meant otherwise they would have said 1d6 damage per Character level. The difference is pretty big.. [/B] I agree. And 10d6 damage, at a 60 foot range, for a melee touch attack once a round is still pretty darn good, considering he never runs out. However, I disagree on the semantics. Perhaps it should be Errataed, but as it stands it says 'class level'. If I'm a level 5 Soul Knife/8 Pyrokinetic, I have 13 class levels, between the two classes. It doesn't say character level, because it doesn't include racial levels. If I had 4HD worth of racial levels in addition to that 5/8 Soulknife/Pyro, I'd still have 13 class levels, but 17 character levels. If they wanted it to be pyrokinetic levels, they should have said so. For instance, take the Slayer of Domiel PrC, in the Book of Exalted Deeds, and specifically it's Death Touch ability. Here, she "rolls 1d6 per slayer level" to determine her 'damage' with the ability (damage in quotations because it's death if their HP are below that number, and nothing otherwise) Clearly, with the Slayer, it maxes out at 10d6, with 10 Slayer levels. I don't see that same kind of restriction being placed on the Pyro, with it's more generic use of 'class levels'. Again, if I'm a 5/8 Soulknife/Pyro, I have 13 class levels, even though they're in different classes.
Nihilism 05-29-04, 06:50 PM	Originally posted by Kilsek of Sheverash Nihilish, thanks! That was a great read :D And so I've decided that if I do go Pyschic Warrior instead of Soulknife, I'll go with a two-handed weapon style character. Maybe not so charge attack-centric like the one in the guide, but I like the idea of a big greatsword and psionic power backing up some butt-kicking sword-swinging! I created a two-handed psiwar build that is not heavily based on charging. There is some charging involved, but that's because psionic lion's charge is simply too good to pass up. I'm going to repost the build for you here, since its buried somewhere on page ten of Wyvern Slayer's guide. i might redo the feat order a bit, but the overall concept is going to stay the same. Human PsiWar 15 (weapon of choice is a heavy flail) 1: Power Attack 1: Combat Expertise 1: Combat Reflexes 2: Improved Trip 3: Improved Disarm 5: Powerful Charge 6: Weapon Focus - Heavy Flail 8: Greater Powerful Charge 9: Psionic Weapon 11: Psionic Meditation 12: Deep Impact 14: Greater Psionic Weapon 15: Weapon Specialization - Heavy Flail Powers 1st: Expansion, Force Screen, Vigor 2nd: Psionic Lion Charge, Body Adjustment, Animal Affinity 3rd: Gr. Concealing Amorpha, Hustle (taken in place of a 3rd level), Vampiric Blade 4th: Energy Adaptation, Truevenom Weapon, Hostile Empathic Transfer (DM changed this to a 4th level power) The Plan 5th level is when this build becomes fun. I'll activate expansion to become large then perform a psionic lion charge. The charge attack will do 2d8 + 2d6 + 7. Then I will follow up with a trip attack. If the trip attack is succesful I get an AoO from improved trip, which will be used on a disarm attempt. Assuming all of these succeed my target is now prone and disarmed. Picking up an item and standing up from prone are both move actions that draw an AoO. Once my opponent is disarmed and prone the most he can hope to do against me is one attack per round. If my opponent is foolish enough to make two moves to pick up his weapon and stand he draws 2 AoO's (hence the combat reflexes feat). My chances for trips and disarms will be very good, so I am confident that this will work well until I :censored: off my DM. :D (that's when he starts designing huge quadraped constructs with weapons instead of hands). Trip and Disarm #'s These numbers are assuming I'm large sized from expansion and my opponent is medium. Trip = +4 (size) +4 (imp trip) +5 (strength) = +13 Disarm = +4 (2H weapon) +2 (flail bonus) + 4 (size) +4 (imp disarm) +5 (strength) -1 (size penalty) + BAB = 18 + BAB If my target is prone when I perform the disarm he has a -4 to his opposed attack roll.
Umar 05-30-04, 07:27 PM	Dromites are pretty cool,too:D My advice would be to get your stats rolled,and see what will work best for you;psionic characters can look and feel wildly different from each other based on this front. Maybe it's just me,but whenever I've thought of the term Psychic Warrior,I've always pictured something not unlike Jedi,the combination of martial prowess and grace coupled with awesome psychic abilities. However,the rules can allow PWs to be played as the '3 yards-in-a-cloud-of-dust' Tank also. Whatever you decide,have fun,and show your fellow players that Psionics are Great!
lantzer 05-30-04, 07:52 PM	Thorak - I'd have to dissagree with you. Your interpretation of 'class level' is an abuse of the rules, in my opinion. It is obviously the convention in the rules that when a class has abilities that scale with level that they are refering to the class that happens to grant those abilities. There are rare occasions where class abilites stack, such as when a character has barbarian and rogue levels for uncanny dodge. But both of these classes have the same ability, and the stacking is mentioned specifically. Your Pyro levels stack with Soulknife as well as Fighter levels stack with Pyro, that is to say, not at all, when it comes to class abilities granted by the Pyro class. Do you really think that the designer intended that a 5/5 soul-knife/pyro is supposed to be as good of a pyro as a full-10 pyro for those granted abilities? If I was GMing, I would laugh, congratulate you on spotting a funny interpretation, and remind you of the 3.0 cleric Strength (Or was it Destruction?) Domain typo - which was of the same sort. And then after our little joke, I'd ask you what you were really playing.
Chasmodai 05-30-04, 11:21 PM	I'd suggest a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior, as have many other people on this thread, due to its simplicity of design and its extreme versatility. Powerful build allows you to weild that fullblade you always wanted to and the bonuses against disarm, grapple, bull rush, etc, etc is too good to pass up. I'd suggest a fullblade swinging, tripping character (Knockdown feat from S&F), with Psionic Meditation and Greater Psionic Weapon for more d6 goodness. Get Hustle to regain focus right after your attack, so you can get your 4d6 again the next round. As for not being too power-heavy... well, a PsyWar kinda gets a lot of powers, but not too many power points. I suggest straightforward buffs - Metaphysical Weapon, Animal Affinity, Offensive Precognition/Prescience, Force Screen, Defensive Precognition, Expansion, Vigor!! and Biofeedback. Think like a cleric; buff yourself, buff others, then kick ass.
Kilsek of Sheverash 05-31-04, 02:19 AM	Chas, that's awesome advice, thank you! Nihilism, I just have one question. In your Psychic Warrior plan, it has the PsW taking Weapon Specialization. According to the Expanded (3.5) Psionics HB, only a fighter can take that feat. I believe it's a change from 3.0. Am I correct here?
Dauntless 05-31-04, 03:06 AM	Originally posted by Thorak I have to disagree. The Psychic Strike ability does slightly more than half the damage of a SA (5d8 rather than 10d6 by 20th), but it's more reliable. First, SA needs to be dealt to something that loses it's dex bonus (I'm ignoring the critical hit requirement as roughly equal to PS's need for the target to be affectable by mind-affecting effects). PS has no similar requirement, nor does it have the 30' range requirement. With a 30' range incremment, the soulknife can be biffing his Mind Blade up to 150' away and dealing that damage. Besides, Psychic Strike takes a move-equivalent action to charge up. And then sticks around, forever, until used. Just make sure you take that move action every day you wake up, and after every fight, to keep 'er charged up for the first shot next fight. Not to mention, his Mindblade carries by 20th a +10 equivalent enchantment. A rogue biffing +10 daggers is just asking for the enemy to pick them up and run away with them. Which brings my to my next point; by 5th level, the Soulknife needs to be disarmed twice in a round to lose their weapon, and then only until the start of their next round. Same for Sunder. By 5th level, they can effectively Quickdraw their weapon once a round, regardless of how far they throw it, or whatever else happened to it. Bladewind is basically a free Whirlwind Attack feat, but without all the requirements many people grumble about needing. Though moving away from the Soulknife for a moment, look at the Pyrokineticist. Now, ignoring fire immune critters which clearly will eat this guy alive, look at the 3rd level ability Bolt of Fire. 1d6 damage, per class level. If this had just said per pyrokineticist level, it would be bad enough, with a 10d6 cap. But it says class level. 20d6 fire damage, no save, requiring only a ranged touch attack, once a round as often as you want? Sign me up! The range ain't great, but anyone within 60 feet is going to be feeling the hurt. SA vs PS- And when flanking, the rogue gets his SA damage on EVERY ATTACK. If you're a dual wielder, this adds up fast. Even if you aren't, at higher levels you'll be hitting two or three times for SA damage while the soulknife can only use his PS once per round. Throwing- Ok, but again not stellar. Note that my rogue will just be using a +10 shortbow instead of daggers. Cheaper and more efficient (if not as useful in melee). But chances are my character will either be optimized for melee (TWF) -OR- ranged combat, not both. C'est la vie. Mindblade inflexibility- A fighter can get a +1 weapon with +9 worth of any special abilities he wants. The soulknife doesn't have this option. As I was saying, many of the soulknife's powers are neat and cool, but balance wise they come out weaker than any other melee class, and laughable for damage at range when compared to archer clerics or rogue ranged attackers. Pyro- As everyone else has said, you're just making up crap now. Class levels refers to the levels of ONE SPECIFIC CLASS. In this case, Pyro. Character levels are what refers to any level. This is a standard for all class/power descriptions. Originally posted by Kilsek of Sheverash Chas, that's awesome advice, thank you! Nihilism, I just have one question. In your Psychic Warrior plan, it has the PsW taking Weapon Specialization. According to the Expanded (3.5) Psionics HB, only a fighter can take that feat. I believe it's a change from 3.0. Am I correct here? That is correct.
Thorak 05-31-04, 09:26 AM	Originally posted by Dauntless SA vs PS- And when flanking, the rogue gets his SA damage on EVERY ATTACK. If you're a dual wielder, this adds up fast. Even if you aren't, at higher levels you'll be hitting two or three times for SA damage while the soulknife can only use his PS once per round. But the Soulknife can use it on opponents with Uncanny Dodge, or on single enemies without trying to work into a flanking position with someone, or at range, 150 feet away rather than SA's limit of 30. I freely admit that sneak attack is loads better if you can get more than one a round, but that requires either invisibility of some kind that the opponent can't get around or detect, or flanking. Psychic Strike is more often useable, and you can always get it on your first strike in combat, so long as you charge your blade after each fight. Throwing- Ok, but again not stellar. Note that my rogue will just be using a +10 shortbow instead of daggers. Cheaper and more efficient (if not as useful in melee). But chances are my character will either be optimized for melee (TWF) -OR- ranged combat, not both. C'est la vie. Cheaper and more efficient than throwing magical daggers, yes. Cheaper and more efficient than throwing an unloseable magic weapon? Not exactly. And PS is useable at 5 times the range of any sneak attack you might have, so at mid-range the Soulknife's damage is likely much better than yours, even before he gets the ability to throw more than one Mind Blade a round, just from the one hit with Psychic Strike he'll get. Soulknives would similarly be optimized for either ranged or melee combat, but they're probably at least as capable at what they specialize at as the rogue, and more so at whichever they didn't specialize. Mindblade inflexibility- A fighter can get a +1 weapon with +9 worth of any special abilities he wants. The soulknife doesn't have this option. For a hefty price. The Soulknife gets his +9 weapon, free of charge, forever, without losing it. And, as someone noted, by level 5 it can be reformed as a free action. Meaning it by that point effectively has the Returning feature as well, pushing it's bonuses even higher than they seem. And if he likes, he can change his weapon's stats relatively easily, and entirely free. Meanwhile, the fighter's going the be shelling out the 100k+ gold for each weapon he wants. And, of course, the soulknife's spending that same share on other items at the same time, boosting his power in other ways the fighter can't yet afford. As I was saying, many of the soulknife's powers are neat and cool, but balance wise they come out weaker than any other melee class, and laughable for damage at range when compared to archer clerics or rogue ranged attackers. Laughable compared to archer clerics and combat classes, perhaps. But certainly not to any rogue who's more than 30 feet away from his opponent, especially since that rogue is going to have a hard time getting Sneak Attacks without flanking his opponent. Especially past level 17, when they get multiple throws of the Mindblade. Sure, they're not as good at toe-to-toe fighting as a Barbarian. And they're not as good at ranged combat as a dedicated archer. Nor are they as good at backstabbing as a rogue. But I'd say they've got about 3/4 of the power of each, all wrapped into one package. Add in the cost-free mindblade, and the possibilities inherent in sneaking a weapon into a guarded area or dungeon with you, and the class is hardly 'bad'. It's like the monk; a good tactical fighter. Pyro- As everyone else has said, you're just making up crap now. Class levels refers to the levels of ONE SPECIFIC CLASS. In this case, Pyro. Character levels are what refers to any level. This is a standard for all class/power descriptions. Okay, so I looked up 'class level' in the Glossary, and it does say 'level in a single class'. I admit error. But I still think 10d6 damage, once a round, at up to 60 feet distance, with no saving throw and only a melee touch attack, and unlimited times a day, is pretty darn good. Especially since you can get that by level 15.
Vaettyr 06-01-04, 05:06 PM	I'm gonna have to weigh in on the side of the Soulknife being a viable class. Originally posted by Dauntless SA vs PS- And when flanking, the rogue gets his SA damage on EVERY ATTACK. If you're a dual wielder, this adds up fast. Even if you aren't, at higher levels you'll be hitting two or three times for SA damage while the soulknife can only use his PS once per round. Two things Thorak didn't touch on. One, to flank a rogue has to be in melee range. With a d6 hit die, while it's effective, it's a risky proposition. By comparison, Soulknife gets a d10. Two, you have to qualify for SA. Opponents, if they're clever, can see to it that qualifying for that is difficult at best. Only thing your opponents can do to keep you from using PA is to be mindless... Originally posted by Dauntless Throwing- Ok, but again not stellar. Note that my rogue will just be using a +10 shortbow instead of daggers. Cheaper and more efficient (if not as useful in melee). +10 shortbow is nice, but your chances for getting SA with it are much more limited than with daggers. You can throw daggers to begin with and then close in for melee. Originaally posted by Dauntless Mindblade inflexibility- A fighter can get a +1 weapon with +9 worth of any special abilities he wants. The soulknife doesn't have this option. Actually, a Soulknife does have that option. He can buy one if he really wants to, but he's really got no reason to. He's already got a weapon that he can change to fit any situation. That's something the fighter doesn't have. Mindblade is extremely, extremely flexible. Plus, the money he saves, as Thorak pointed out, can go for a myriad of other things that a fighter could never afford if he wanted a comparable weapon. Me, I'd put that extra cash into AC. I think toe to toe the Mindblade may lose out a bit, but like the rogue, they're more flexible than other classes. Plus, they're a little more reliable than rogues seeing as they don't have to qualify for SA, and nearly always have the right weapon for the job. All that with a d10 hit die makes for a pretty viable option in my book.
Kilsek of Sheverash 06-01-04, 07:08 PM	Could someone answer my last question please? In Nihilism's Psychic Warrior plan, it has the PsW taking Weapon Specialization. According to the Expanded (3.5) Psionics HB, only a fighter can take that feat. I believe it's a change from 3.0. Am I correct here? And, if a PsW *can't* take WS, what other feats make a good option for a two-handed weapon wielding PsW? Thank you!
Vaettyr 06-01-04, 09:30 PM	No, a Psychic Warrior cannot take Weapon Specialization and yes, it is a change from 3.0. As for what feats to go with, I really don't know what to tell you. Cleave could be an option. Improved Overrun might be fun with the Expansion power. Your call really, that build pretty much has your bases covered.
Chasmodai 06-02-04, 01:42 AM	Actually, level 15 is about the perfect time to get Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis). Metamorphose into a Sun Giant, which is Huge, then double Expansion yourself to become Colossal. Nothing like swinging around an 12d6 fullblade to make your day :).