Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 03-21-05, 04:15 PM	More of a venting than anything else: Online games, I've had a character idea I've been wanting to play for a while now. Thing is, its Gestalt, and set in Eberron, so the oppertunities to play it are rather slim pickings. Concept is a Lawful Good Monk/Warlock gestalt. Page long description, two page long background for him. DM I pitched it to liked the character, but pointed out that, by the books, you can't have a Lawful Good Warlock. Well, I made my pitch as to why I thought it was justified to wave it for the character, which essentially came down to "The default fluff assumes you made demonic pacts, so you're either evil for it, or you're Chaotic for breaking that pact. My concept has nothing to do with demonic taints. The combinition works perfectly fine as long as you want to be Lawful Evil, but I prefer playing a good guy." The responce I got was that normally, he'd allow it. However, I seem to have made one little mistake. I mentioned that the basic idea for the character was a Dragonball Z-ish fighter. Which, it is, lots of hand to hand damage, with long range energy blasts. I won't deny it, that is where I got the idea to make him from. To which I got the responce of "I don't like that anime, so I'm not allowing that character." Not because he didn't like the character itself, he said it was a great character. Not because it was unbalancing, unrealistic, or anything else. He denied the character purely because I made the comparison to a TV show he didn't like. Went from thinking it was a great character to thinking it was pure crap because of that one little thing. Rather glad that I found this out BEFORE I got into the game, because if he's got preconcieved notions that he allows to have that big of an impact on the game, its probably a good idea to avoid that train wreck before it happens. Not to mention he was starting an Eberron campaign at lvl 4 gestalt, and just put a post that he was going to let in up to SEVEN people. For those not familiar with Eberron, the setting is designed to start at lvl 1, with almost no NPCs that are even middle levels (one of the biggest threats in the campaign is a lvl 12). I hope the players he does get enjoy themselves though, for their sakes.
Nidair 03-21-05, 04:37 PM	Unless that DM has 2 pages full of house rules, I think he's going to disallow a lot more characters. A 4th-level gestalt game is like inviting abusive combinations right into your game. Not 'xactly something for Eberron, methinks.
Edymnion 03-21-05, 05:03 PM	Unless that DM has 2 pages full of house rules, I think he's going to disallow a lot more characters. A 4th-level gestalt game is like inviting abusive combinations right into your game. Not 'xactly something for Eberron, methinks.Nope, it really isn't. But, the character race rather needs to be a Shifter for that conditional power boost. Which essentially means an Eberron game. Normally, I consider the Warlock to be horribly balanced and not fit for play. But, its the only "official" class that can replicate the energy blasts. And hell, its a gestalt game anyway. The very definition of gestalt is "Screw balance, lets do lots of overpowered crazy crap just for the hell of it!" Methinks I need to just make up a base class with Monk AC and Unarmed Damage progression, and the Warlock eldritch blasts and be done with it...
Gemstone 03-21-05, 05:34 PM	More of a venting than anything else: Online games, I've had a character idea I've been wanting to play for a while now. Thing is, its Gestalt, and set in Eberron, so the oppertunities to play it are rather slim pickings. Concept is a Lawful Good Monk/Warlock gestalt. Page long description, two page long background for him. DM I pitched it to liked the character, but pointed out that, by the books, you can't have a Lawful Good Warlock. Well, I made my pitch as to why I thought it was justified to wave it for the character, which essentially came down to "The default fluff assumes you made demonic pacts, so you're either evil for it, or you're Chaotic for breaking that pact. My concept has nothing to do with demonic taints. The combinition works perfectly fine as long as you want to be Lawful Evil, but I prefer playing a good guy." The responce I got was that normally, he'd allow it. However, I seem to have made one little mistake. I mentioned that the basic idea for the character was a Dragonball Z-ish fighter. Which, it is, lots of hand to hand damage, with long range energy blasts. I won't deny it, that is where I got the idea to make him from. To which I got the responce of "I don't like that anime, so I'm not allowing that character." Not because he didn't like the character itself, he said it was a great character. Not because it was unbalancing, unrealistic, or anything else. He denied the character purely because I made the comparison to a TV show he didn't like. Went from thinking it was a great character to thinking it was pure crap because of that one little thing. Rather glad that I found this out BEFORE I got into the game, because if he's got preconcieved notions that he allows to have that big of an impact on the game, its probably a good idea to avoid that train wreck before it happens. Not to mention he was starting an Eberron campaign at lvl 4 gestalt, and just put a post that he was going to let in up to SEVEN people. For those not familiar with Eberron, the setting is designed to start at lvl 1, with almost no NPCs that are even middle levels (one of the biggest threats in the campaign is a lvl 12). I hope the players he does get enjoy themselves though, for their sakes. It could be possible that he disallowed the character because he felt that it would be to much of a DBZ character, running around screaming and firing energybolts. I would've disallowed the character if there was to much reference to DBZ, since I favor original character concepts and ideas. But as far as I see, there's nothing wrong with this
Helmed Horror 03-21-05, 05:47 PM	well edymnion... I must say, that ruling of I don't like DBZ so I wont let you play shinanigans are just absurd. I don't know how old you, or your dm is, but that is totally childish. In defense of the DM though, if you go on saying "SUPER SAYIN PUNCH WHAAMMY!" or whatever they say, (sorry i'm not up with the anime trend, just seen the commercials) then I would be concerned. If he went through the hours of thinking and delicate planning and if he knew the unsatiable desire to play a character you spent that long on and he comes up and says "I don't like DBZ..." I donno..
Edymnion 03-21-05, 06:48 PM	It could be possible that he disallowed the character because he felt that it would be to much of a DBZ character, running around screaming and firing energybolts. I would've disallowed the character if there was to much reference to DBZ, since I favor original character concepts and ideas. But as far as I see, there's nothing wrong with thisNope, he went through the entire background and character sheet, and approved it. Shifter that grew up amongst a sect of goblins (who in Eberron are an ancient culture with monastic warriors) who essentially taught him martial arts and how to direct his chi outwards into blasts (instead of just into fists for stunning attacks and the like). Character doesn't even have big hair. :P Only mention of DBZ was later on, at which point he immediantly snubbed it. No running around calling out attack names, no long winded speaches about who was going to destroy who, just a normal character that used DBZ as an inspiration for fighting style.
Capt. Pixel 03-21-05, 07:15 PM	I wouldn't have a problem with a DBZ-style PC. As long as he doesn't spend all his time grunting like he has terminal constipation. (I, too, dislike DBZ as an animated cartoon.) :rolleyes: If you did that with your PC in my game, I'd kill him out of principal. :cool:
Tharivol 03-21-05, 07:22 PM	Hmm... Edymnion, I found this post on rpol.net, it sounds similar to your story: Add that to the fact his background wasn't even that good (didn't even make reference as to were his powers originated from, which would have been nice, even if the character himself knows the source or not). When I objected, he started bringing out all this anti-alignment restriction arguments, none of which I wanted to hear because I’ve already made my DM-granted decision to include such things. When I told him this, he then threw a hissy fit and then called me a bigot. It was one of the strangest thing I’ve never been involved with One of you is blatantly lying. Now, for some strange reason, I doubt you would have made this thread if you were lying...
Veton 03-21-05, 07:29 PM	Hmm... Edymnion, I found this post on rpol.net, it sounds similar to your story: Could you post a link to it? We could probably see if it's close to Edymnion's story if we get the full post.
Tharivol 03-21-05, 07:41 PM	Well, Edymnion did say it was an online campaign. That is the whole post, but it's a response to another post, there's a few about it. I can't get a link to it to work.
Veton 03-21-05, 07:50 PM	Thread does not exist for . Looks like it's not working for some reason :rolleyes: But I do have to support Edymnion so far. It seems kind of stupid to me to allow a character at first, and then completly reject it when a comparison is made to show the DM doesn't like.
Edymnion 03-21-05, 08:10 PM	Well, I was going to go in and get a copy/paste of the entire discussion and put it up for y'all to read, and decide for yourselves. However, he seems to have banned me from the game so I can't even log in and get a copy of the posts. When he said no the first time, he said it was a great charachter, but because of the alignment conflict he wasn't going to do it. I asked him to reconsider, and gave him the reasons why I thought he should reconsider. He came back with, to paraphrase, "I would have allowed it, but I despise that horrible excuse for an anime, so no. Either make something else, or leave." At that point, I told him that I thought he was a bad DM for refusing the character not because of build, background, compatibility, but because the inspiration for it wasn't his cup of tea. Told him that I hoped his players didn't quote the wrong thing to get him mad at them because he didn't like where the quote came from, and told him that maybe in a few years he'd mature enough as a gamer to put the player's enjoyment of their characters ahead of his own notions of what sources were acceptable for drawing characters from and what wasn't. Yeah, I was a bit snippy with him at the end, but I made sure to stay nice and polite with him (remember, I wanted to get into the game, not tick him off) up until he said "No, I think Dragonball is stupid so anything connected to it isn't going to even be considered". As for the "no idea where his power comes from", that one is just weird. I thought it was explained rather bluntly, but maybe not. Here's the background on him (only differance is that I pitched him with the name of Kencaide, not Darrius), I'll let you judge for yourselves: The Eldeen Reaches is a primordial place, with groves of trees that have seen the rise and fall of Galifar, some dating back to the days when the orcs themselves roamed the wood. Today, the Reaches are as they have always been, a wilderness that rewards the strong, and seperates out the weak like chaff from the wheat. Especially in the south, where the Reaches meet Droaam, where most believe that civilization ends. And in many ways, they're right. Sylbaran sits nearly on the border, between the ancient forest and the monsterous realms. Even it's proximity to Breland does little to tame the land here. But, for those that live here, and know where to look, the old ways still survive. When the goblin empires fell, much was lost to the mists of time, never to be regained. But some small sects preserve what they can. Goblins, Hobgoblins, and even a few Orcs that have kept alive their martial arts, the ways of the warrior. Ways that said that after centuries of war, the only thing you could rely on in combat was yourself. Weapons and armors could fail you, but as long as you could stand, each and every individual could be a weapon until the very end. It was one such sect which was encountered by a pack of nomadic Shifter hunters, following their prey. The goblins refused to give ground, and the Shifters refused to back down to such seemingly weak opponents. The battle was short, shifter ferocity was no match for the highly disciplined arts of the goblins. The shifter hunting pack was destroyed, down to the last man and woman. The children were spared, and adopted into the sect, to be raised in the old ways. Many of the older children rebelled, unable to stomach strict discipline, and escaped back into the woods under the cover of night. Some became withdrawn, and refused to eat, wasting away. Only one stayed with the goblins, a child barely old enough to talk, who insisted his name was Darrius, and stubbornly refused to be called anything else. Over the years, his memories of the hunting pack faded into mear stories his goblin masters told to him. He knew he was differant from the goblins, and the hobgoblins, and the half-orcs, but it didn't matter, they were his order, they were his family. Years came, and years passed, and Darrius trained. Under the tutilage of his goblin master, Sharrask, whom he thought of as a father, Darrius learned the secrets of the ancient goblin fighting techniques, and the pride of the disciplined warrior. As Darrius aged, and became a young man, Sharrask aged as well, the short lives of goblins weighing down upon him. Seeing his time was short, and that Darrius held great potential, he finally decided to impart the ultimate pinnacle of goblin martial arts to his adopted son. The ability to focus the inner spirit into an external blast of mystical power, an ability that would take many years for any goblin to master. It was to be his final gift to his son. After seeing the sparring dummy explode in a spray of straw and cloth from across the grounds, Darrius immediantly took it upon himself to learn this new technique. What should have taken him years to learn, he learned in weeks. Several years later, Sharrask died, his age finally overcoming the old warrior. After his period of mourning, Darrius realized that he had surpassed the skill of everyone else in the sect now that his father was gone, but he still yearned to learn more, to perfect his skills and make his father proud of him. One week later, Darrius said his goodbyes, took what meager belongings he posessed, and struck out into the world. The outside world proved to be far more chaotic than he had ever imagined. No order, no fairness. The strong lorded over the weak, taking what they wanted and giving nothing in return. He had been raised to not take sides in matters of good and evil, that neutrality allowed one to see the world as a whole. But how could he hold to this when innocents suffered through no fault of their own, simply because they could not defend themselves? What he found was not balance, but darkness. The only way to restore that balance was to take action, to be pro-active. Darrius became a defender in his wanderings, helping those that could not help themselves. By the time he had reached what most citizens of Khovaire would consider civilization, his mind was set. Two goals went hand in hand, to become the greatest fighter in the land to honor his father's memory, and to use that power to protect those that could not protect themselves.
green_yawgmoth 03-21-05, 08:38 PM	Wow, Edy. I dislike DBZ as well, and to be honest I'd be wary of anything derived from that slag of a show, but with that kind of a backstory I'd let you play black mage if you wanted. :mymy: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Tharivol 03-21-05, 08:43 PM	Well, I was going to go in and get a copy/paste of the entire discussion and put it up for y'all to read, and decide for yourselves. However, he seems to have banned me from the game so I can't even log in and get a copy of the posts. I can still get in (obviously). Here's the part of the conversation that seems to have to do with this: DM: Okay everyone let me just go ahead and give this warning: do not poke the bear! This is my game, and I have set up the rules as I want them. Do not request to play or plan a character which utilizes something absolutely contrary to what has been written. I am not afraid to excise my game-based power as a DM (example, I've already banned one users for calling me a bigot over something so silly as not allowing him to play a Lawful Good Warlock, for, as the house rules clearly state, alignment restrictions will be in place). Now, I don't want trouble (nor do I want to cause trouble) so please, please read the bloody character creation guidelines and if you need any clarification on something don't be afraid to ask (just don't ask for me to change anything, I've already done that once and I don't want to do it again). Player1: ....Lawful Good Warlock? WTF? Is that guy on crack? The book says Any Chaotic or Any Evil; doesn't that go totally against the book? Now I admit, onetime I did try and submit a gestalt Monk/Barbarian, but I had a good backstory and reason to explain it! And I wasn't upset when it was turned down, I knew it was a longshot. Player2: The Alignment thing would be why I wound up with two warlock 'concepts' - one evil, one good. *shaking head* Anyway - um. Where /are/ we? Assuming that question hasn't been answered already, in which case you can bonk me over the head with a clue bat and point me at it .. o.O DM: Add that to the fact his background wasn't even that good (didn't even make reference as to were his powers originated from, which would have been nice, even if the character himself knows the source or not). When I objected, he started bringing out all this anti-alignment restriction arguments, none of which I wanted to hear because I’ve already made my DM-granted decision to include such things. When I told him this, he then threw a hissy fit and then called me a bigot. It was one of the strangest thing I’ve never been involved with O_O… Doesn't the warlock description actually mention the possibility of characters of other alignments getting their powers from other sources?
Edymnion 03-21-05, 08:54 PM	DM: Okay everyone let me just go ahead and give this warning: do not poke the bear! This is my game, and I have set up the rules as I want them. Do not request to play or plan a character which utilizes something absolutely contrary to what has been written. I am not afraid to excise my game-based power as a DM (example, I've already banned one users for calling me a bigot over something so silly as not allowing him to play a Lawful Good Warlock, for, as the house rules clearly state, alignment restrictions will be in place). Now, I don't want trouble (nor do I want to cause trouble) so please, please read the bloody character creation guidelines and if you need any clarification on something don't be afraid to ask (just don't ask for me to change anything, I've already done that once and I don't want to do it again). Player1: ....Lawful Good Warlock? WTF? Is that guy on crack? The book says Any Chaotic or Any Evil; doesn't that go totally against the book? Now I admit, onetime I did try and submit a gestalt Monk/Barbarian, but I had a good backstory and reason to explain it! And I wasn't upset when it was turned down, I knew it was a longshot. Player2: The Alignment thing would be why I wound up with two warlock 'concepts' - one evil, one good. *shaking head* Anyway - um. Where /are/ we? Assuming that question hasn't been answered already, in which case you can bonk me over the head with a clue bat and point me at it .. o.O DM: Add that to the fact his background wasn't even that good (didn't even make reference as to were his powers originated from, which would have been nice, even if the character himself knows the source or not). When I objected, he started bringing out all this anti-alignment restriction arguments, none of which I wanted to hear because I’ve already made my DM-granted decision to include such things. When I told him this, he then threw a hissy fit and then called me a bigot. It was one of the strangest thing I’ve never been involved with O_O…Heh, I see he made some changes to it. Before all he had was "I do use alignments, so don't bother requesting things like Paladin/Druids or anything else that simply don't work together". Thing is, Monk and Warlock do work together. You can be Lawful Evil and be a Warlock/Monk quite easily. I just don't play Evil characters. I only play heroes, the good guys. So, I asked to have alignment restriction lifted for just the Warlock half. Said he liked the character, but the alignment restriction was in the way. So, I pitched why I thought it could be waved this time. I didn't say anything negative until I got the "Anything having to do with DBZ is stupid!" treatment. With the obviously implication that I wasn't worth bothering with if I had ever voluntarily watched it. Doesn't the warlock description actually mention the possibility of characters of other alignments getting their powers from other sources?Yes, it does. It says the source of the power is inborn, not taught. Which I thought I reflected in that he learned to use the Eldritch Blast in almost no time at all, because he could always do it, just that he had trained to use his body, not mystical blasts for most of his life.
Jason_Vorhees 13 03-21-05, 09:11 PM	Wow, from my stand point this guy is a major @ss. To not allow a PC for something as stupid as "I don't like where the original idea originated from" is a clear sign that this guy is a bad DM. Now I don't know much about a warlock (I use V. 3.5 and if it is in a 3.5. supplememt I haven't read it) but a simple alignment change should always be allowed, I myself would allow a paliden to be LN (as long as he/she had a reason such as deity), and when it says the powers can come from else where then it should be completly acceptable.
Tharivol 03-21-05, 09:42 PM	Heh, I see he made some changes to it. Actually, that would be the thread were he talked about you third-person after the fact. It just occurred to me that when you said you wanted to post a transcript, you meant your private message conversation, which of course I can't see :doh: (I feel stupid). Heh, sorry.
Skyblade 03-21-05, 09:52 PM	Obviously, you two would've never gotten along anyways... With such a well written backstory, I don't see how the DM could still say your background was 'not that good'. It seemed pretty clear to me where you got the powers from. And focusing Ki outwards is not entirely from DBZ at all - the Chinese call it Chi, and as you would see in many martial arts movies, people with this ability could fly/snuff out candles from far away/push enemies away with this force. Using a Warlock to portray this, all tied together nicely with a well written story is what I'd call creativity - something I often found lacking in many campaigns.
Edymnion 03-21-05, 09:52 PM	Actually, that would be the thread were he talked about you third-person after the fact. It just occurred to me that when you said you wanted to post a transcript, you meant your private message conversation, which of course I can't see :doh: (I feel stupid). Heh, sorry.Yeah, that looks like his character creation guidelines after some modifications. I was going to copy paste the private message thread, since even the DMs can't edit those, and post them up. But, he locked me out of the game. Not sure why, I told him I wouldn't be coming back.
devinmdp 03-21-05, 10:58 PM	Well, allow me to jump in on the other side. The DM it seems clearly said he was enforcing alignment restrictions, so why, knowing that going in, do you even bother to submit and argue for a character that is blatantly in contravention of the alignment restrictions? I'm sorry, but as a DM one thing that really annoys me is when I clearly tell my players my rules, and then they basically ignore them and try to start harping at me to bend them. It's annoying, I have better things to attend to, and it should NEVER be done. So sorry Edy, I put the blame squarely on you here, even if I agree the DM probably should have handled it better. But keep in mind he doesn't know you and communication can be easily misinterpreted over the net. He probably thought "Oh God, here's some immature little brat already trying to break my rules and shove some whacky alignment-restricted gestalt power character down my throat!". With the literally millions of possible character combinations that are allowable under his house rules, why did you even have to go there? Devin
green_yawgmoth 03-21-05, 11:03 PM	Devin, did you read the whole thread? Because Edy already said that he's since changed his character creation "guidelines". When he first pitched the idea, the only thing that was in the way was what the book said, and as we all know, DM > book. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Edymnion 03-21-05, 11:16 PM	Devin, did you read the whole thread? Because Edy already said that he's since changed his character creation "guidelines". When he first pitched the idea, the only thing that was in the way was what the book said, and as we all know, DM > book. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gifYes, when I submitted the character, it just said not to use contradicting classes. He was using alignments, which in Eberron basically says "Alignment might be blurred, but you still gotta be Lawful Good to be a Paladin" and the like. Then not to make contradicting class combinations. A monk/warlock is not a conflicting combination, its perfectly acceptable within the rules, as long as you don't mind being Lawful Evil. And its not like its an Assassin that has to kill random people for no reason just because somebody else said so. The ONLY reason in the book for the Chaotic or Evil alingment is because it only describes making deals with demons to get the power. But really, if he had said no because of the alignment, listened to my request to wave the restriction, and still said he'd rather not, that would have been fine. I can respect a DM that is willing to give something a fair chance, and still end up sticking to his guns, thats great. More DMs need to be able to do that. But the DM didn't bounce the character because of alignment. He even said that he would have allowed the character in, except that it was based off an anime he didn't like. Wanting to stick to his guns for rules reason, that I can accept. But as is, I don't see it as being any differant than saying "I really hated those Conan movies with Arnold in them, so nobody can play a Barbarian in any game I run!" Not wanting Barbarians because they don't fit with the setting, or because you theink they're overpowered is one thing. Not wanting them because you don't like a movie or TV show that had one in it is just being silly.
Maniacal_Cackle 03-21-05, 11:20 PM	To be fair, I think I see where the DM was coming from about being confused (though I also say that it looks like he was looking for excuses at that point). You never really explain why you were able to learn so fast (either that or I missed it). Perhaps adding a sentence "His mentor could think of no explanation other than he was naturally gifted, somewhat akin to a sorcerer." Other than that, I like it quite a bit!
Arcen 03-21-05, 11:57 PM	How are you getting a LG monk/warlock? Warlocks have to be either Chaotic or Evil.
Edymnion 03-21-05, 11:59 PM	How are you getting a LG monk/warlock? Warlocks have to be either Chaotic or Evil.I believe that was covered at length in the post already.
Salla 03-22-05, 12:41 AM	To not allow a PC for something as stupid as "I don't like where the original idea originated from" is a clear sign that this guy is a bad DM. Yeah ... if I did that, nobody could play most of the PHB races because I hate Tolkien. :) (Actually, I *have* run a game like that ... but everybody knew beforehand that I wasn't using the standard PHB races, so there was no confusion.) And, actually, in Eberron, you can be an 'evil good guy', since alignments are significantly 'hazier' than in regular D&D. To follow up on the DBZ analogy, think later Vegeta; he was on the side of Goku and pals, although he wasn't an angel by any stretch of the imagination. Eberron's the only setting where I've considered relaxing my 'no evil PCs' rule. (Random side note, I don't get the alignment restrictions on either the Warlock *or* the Monk, but that's yet another rant.) Anyway, you weren't doing a clone, you were doing an inspiration, but even beyond that ... sometimes DMs forget that it's COOPERATIVE roleplay. There has to be give and take, compromises made. If it's not disruptive or unbalanced (ignoring the fact that we're talking gestalts here!), let it slide.
The_Dark_One 03-22-05, 12:46 AM	Edymnion: I have to say that I've never encountered this DM, but I've read numerous posts by you. In my experience, I have never known you to be anything but reasonable, intelligent, and the sort of player I would be glad to have in any game I'd care to run. Looking at the posts by both you and him, and keeping in mind that I know next to nothing about him, I have to call this in your favor. The_Dark_One has spoken. Edymnion is declared to be the winner. :cheer: :dancin: :w00t: :cheer:
Tharivol 03-22-05, 01:32 AM	Edymnion: I have to say that I've never encountered this DM, but I've read numerous posts by you. In my experience, I have never known you to be anything but reasonable, intelligent, and the sort of player I would be glad to have in any game I'd care to run. Looking at the posts by both you and him, and keepimg in mind that I know next to nothing about him, I have to call this in your favor. The_Dark_One has spoken. Edymnion is declared to be the winner. :cheer: :dancin: :w00t: :cheer: Yeah, that's pretty much why, if I know one of them has to be lying, than I'm pretty sure it's the DM.
PhaedrusXY 03-22-05, 02:15 AM	Well, I can see where the DM is coming from, also. He uses alignment restrictions, and you ask him to bend the rules. He's considering it, but it's not like he has to. Then you drop the "inspired by Dragonball Z" bomb. He doesn't know you, and probably figured you were some immature brat who was going to be disrupting his game with silly antics by a DBZ screaming maniac character. I might have said No at that point, also. (I detest that show.) The people on this board know you're a pretty reasonable and mature person. This heavily biases our opinion in your favor. If you look at it from the DMs perspective, it changes things a bit.
weasel fierce 03-22-05, 03:28 AM	some would argue that 3.5 IS anime as it is ;) While the DM has final say, I think its a pretty shallow way of viewing things, especially as you say he actually liked the rest of the concept.
PhaedrusXY 03-22-05, 03:34 AM	some would argue that 3.5 IS anime as it is ;)You misunderstand. I like Anime. I just hate DBZ. :D
weasel fierce 03-22-05, 03:36 AM	Cant argue with that :)
green_yawgmoth 03-22-05, 04:20 AM	You misunderstand. I like Anime. I just hate DBZ. :D The fact that you consider DBZ to be anime in the first place suggests you don't utterly despise it like most. ;) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
devinmdp 03-22-05, 12:53 PM	Well, I can see where the DM is coming from, also. He uses alignment restrictions, and you ask him to bend the rules. He's considering it, but it's not like he has to. Then you drop the "inspired by Dragonball Z" bomb. He doesn't know you, and probably figured you were some immature brat who was going to be disrupting his game with silly antics by a DBZ screaming maniac character. I might have said No at that point, also. (I detest that show.) The people on this board know you're a pretty reasonable and mature person. This heavily biases our opinion in your favor. If you look at it from the DMs perspective, it changes things a bit. Exactly. I know Edy from these boards too and I know he's a good guy and a mature poster. But if I were Joe DM and didn't know Edy from shinola, and I got some guy trying to toss a Lawful Good Gestalt Monk/Warlock and he started tossing Dragonball Z around, I'd be VERY worried and the first thing that'd come to mind is MUNCHKIN. So, my view is not an attack on Edy, but rather a recognition that perceptions are difficult when communicating online, and the DM likely had a very different picture of Edy than we do. Devin
Doctor_Jello 03-22-05, 04:59 PM	Me I don't mind characters that act are based off of anime. What i can't stand is a human walking around with a huge katana. That is a no go. Most characters in my campaign are unique, but have small similarities to video games and yadda yadda, but i require them to play them as a different character. **it doesn't state in warlock they need to be chaotic, or evil. It says Usually which contains th 1% rule of being any other alignment.
Edymnion 03-22-05, 05:31 PM	**it doesn't state in warlock they need to be chaotic, or evil. It says Usually which contains th 1% rule of being any other alignment.Actually, Complete Arcane, page 7:Alignment: Any evil or chaotic
Vadth 03-22-05, 05:48 PM	I can see where the DM is coming from and would probably do the same. I wouldn't want to run a game with a character very similar and inspire by DBZ. Nothing against the player but DBZ annoys me too much for me to effectively run and enjoy the game. I think the DM could have been a little nicer and maybe explain himself better. I can see why would be mad but understand DBZ has a weird affect on some people.
Miah 03-22-05, 05:58 PM	From a totally unbiased, outside opinion going purely off all information gathered from reading this entire thread, I have to say the solution to this quandry can be solved with 2 letters: DM. He is the Dungeon Master, what he says goes and as we all know the DM supercedes the rule books. It might be childish but if he wished to disqualify the character because of its inspirational source then he can.
wolf_mage 03-22-05, 06:16 PM	From a totally unbiased, outside opinion going purely off all information gathered from reading this entire thread, I have to say the solution to this quandry can be solved with 2 letters: DM. He is the Dungeon Master, what he says goes and as we all know the DM supercedes the rule books. It might be childish but if he wished to disqualify the character because of its inspirational source then he can. The issue isn't whether the DM can do this. The issue is whether doing this is justified (and whether he is a bad DM.)
Edymnion 03-22-05, 07:02 PM	The issue isn't whether the DM can do this. The issue is whether doing this is justified (and whether he is a bad DM.)Yes, the DM is capable of saying that any PC that says a word containing the letter 'E' will have a hole in space open above his head as a celestrial cow falls on him and kills him instantly. No save, no hp damage, you just drop dead. And the DM can do that. Doesn't mean he should, or that it is socially acceptable to do it.
Moon-Lancer 03-22-05, 07:13 PM	I as well do not understand why the monk is lawful. I know its about discipline, but that has nothing to do with following societies rules. I think the warlock is chaotic because if they go against there evil nature in their blood, they begin to create internal strife. This though, is quickly shot down by a whole paragraph saying there power doesn’t need to come from demons or dark blood, so that throws that idea out the window. One could look at it that there are about one hundred billion classes and prestige classes for lawful characters, but around five or so for the chaotic character. Chaos really needed the warlock.
Edymnion 03-22-05, 08:15 PM	I as well do not understand why the monk is lawful. I know its about discipline, but that has nothing to do with following societies rules.Being lawful does not just mean you follow society's rules. Lawful also means that you have a code of personal honor, that you believe that a structured, orderly life is a goal to be achieved, and all that rot. Chaotic isn't about just not following the rules, its about believing that rules themselves are a stranglehold on the freedom of the individual, and that what is right for one person may not be right for another, so everybody should be free to do whatever they think is best for themselves. A monk is a very structured class built around an ordered mind and body. It has a good reason to require you to be lawful, as you must be incredibly disciplined to follow that path. Unlike the Warlock, that basically says "You were born with freaky powers, so you are Evil and/or have no respect for society". I mean, the same could be said about Sorcerers.
Skyblade 03-22-05, 08:18 PM	You know, I think it's also a matter of versatility; if the warlock is disallowed, you could've probably have found another class that would live up to the backstory. There's bound to be disagreements - and compromises would have to be made; can't get really far if you storm out everytime a DM doesn't like your concepts. I think Warmage would've done just as well - and may have even been more realistic, as any ki channeller would eventually run out of energy. And, in reference to DBZ... Here's a pic for you to consider: http://img164.exs.cx/img164/465/kamehameha7vf.jpg Who needs a warlock? :D
Abulafia 03-23-05, 11:50 AM	As much as I sympathize with you, and as sure I am that I would have acted differently if similarly situated, I cannot categorically condemn the DM. If it were me, I *think* I would have tried to work something out if I liked the concept and the player seemed reasonable. After all, you were being honest and upfront -- you could've just said nothing, wrote down LE as your alignment, and acted against your alignment for the entire game. That said, your online DM doesn't know anything about you. His first impression of you is that you seem to be trying to bend the rules, and that you want to make a character inspired by a show he really dislikes. If a player came to me with a good concept, but the build was a twf barbarian-monk gestalt, and he said he was "inspired" by Salvatore's crappy books, it would give me pause. Is he going to play the concept, or the clone? Does he want the alignment restriction lifted to capture his concept, or to more perfectly imitate his inspiration? If you gave me a sworn statement that you would never spend 30 minutes of game time grunting and screaming, I probably would have allowed it. But I can understand your DM's trepidation.
Edymnion 03-23-05, 12:56 PM	I think Warmage would've done just as well - and may have even been more realistic, as any ki channeller would eventually run out of energy.Yeah, but it misses out on some key things, IMO. One of which would be flying pretty much at will. Fell Flight gives you that ability. And there's Escape the Scene, which does a Dimension Door to shunt you off to another location, while leaving a Mirror Image in your place, which was done a lot on the show, and could easily be explained as being a form of extreme speed.
Dauntless 03-23-05, 05:58 PM	I heart Edy. I stalk him throughout the forums, but have been posting much less ever since my Eberron campaign died off. With the exception of his INSANE stance on Favored Souls (;)) I've seen him to be a completely reasonable person and would love to play alongside him. I have a hard time thinking he's at fault here (though I admit by the RAW his character would be illegal, simply asking for an exception isn't necessarily a bad thing).
sorvikcorsair 03-23-05, 06:22 PM	Well shoot, don't know why many players don't come up with stuff like this, least none I have ran into. I don't play online as I don't have a camera and many people require one. The character concept is great, I don't really care where ideas come from, as long as it isn't a clone. I would tell the player they can play their character, but the moment it does become a clone to expect (as a previous DM of mine would say), "Rock of Doom" to fall on them. Don't happen to live in NW indiana do you? Wouldn't mind seeing this type of character in action.
PurdueDave 03-23-05, 07:29 PM	If I was DM I'd be ecstatic it wasn't another uber-powerful gestalt build. I don't think I could look my DM in the eye while taking levels of warshaper and druid simultaneously.
Lord Dracos 03-23-05, 07:40 PM	I Dm, and have a player that is somewhat like that. He wants to introduce a namekian race into my campaign. They just don't fit in, and the hordes of DBZ jokes/references/reaccountings may just drive me to insanity. Or worse. I don't like anime, but I would never do something like that to my players. If my previously mentioned friend was to come up with a DBZ like class, vaguely simalar to what you suggested, I would allow it. Essentialy what I am trying to say, is, if it interferes with his campaign, I can understand. but it dosen;t sem yto.
ThexGodfather 03-23-05, 11:47 PM	I don't understand how anybody can justify getting upset with a player just cause he asks for permission to do something that breaks the rules. A DM who gets mad at me for ever asking to do something unique is going to lose me as a player real quick, and I won't be too open to allowing someone that inflexable and antagonistic into any game I'm running.
Demon Lightfoot 03-24-05, 12:12 AM	:thinks: Maybe it's because as a DM I can be as easy as a blonde after a Roofie Margurita, but I don't see the problem with the character, especially if the DM said he'd have allowed it but for it being inspired by DBZ. Hell, it shows a level of creativity that the usual templatex3/racex2/classx5/PrCx3/homebrewedPrC mishmash doesn't. His reason for disallowing the PC, if accurately related, is worse than dumb. Now I'm going to have to pester my DM to let me play one.
Max Overload 03-24-05, 04:43 AM	I'm siding with the DM here. This guys doesn't know you from Adam, and you open by presenting something that is flatly disallowed. Okay, so you were just asking, I'm okay with that. But, it should have stopped there. The conversation shouldn't have still been going, as you tried to get the LG Warlock/Monk past him long enough for you to have mentioned DBZ. "So, I'm building Warlock/Monk, but I'd like to be Lawful Good." "Sorry, alignment restrictions stand." "Okay, I'll a)take the Lawful Evil b)work on something else." The build, combined with a request for a non-allowed alignment, plus grinding on him for awhile after he said no the first time...honestly, I've no doubt the testimonials that you are a good and reasonable guy are true, but really, man, can't you see how this looks to him, especially after mentioning DBZ? A good munchkin can pull descriptions and backgrounds out of their sitting end, anything to get a character allowed. This DM had no reason to suspect you weren't a Munchkin with a DBZ trip who was planning to use the Lawful Good alignment to pull off some god-forsaken stunt in two levels, especially as a gestalt character.
Edymnion 03-24-05, 03:16 PM	The build, combined with a request for a non-allowed alignment, plus grinding on him for awhile after he said no the first time...honestly, I've no doubt the testimonials that you are a good and reasonable guy are true, but really, man, can't you see how this looks to him, especially after mentioning DBZ? A good munchkin can pull descriptions and backgrounds out of their sitting end, anything to get a character allowed.The Build: Don't know if you've ever played Gestalt, but the build is actually quite weak for the type of game where you can get a Wizard/Cleric that can cast every spell in the game. The build was not an issue. Request for non-allowed alignment: Yeah, that parts right. Grinding on him: I don't know where you're getting this from. He said he liked the character, but the alignment thing was a problem. I gave him my reasons why I thought it was justified to make an acception. I didn't grind on anybody, it was one post in responce to what essentially came down to "I like it, but I don't wanna make exceptions for everybody, so give me a good reason for this one". You make it sound like I stood there and hammered on the guy for an hour or two, when the entire conversation was only 5-6 posts long. 1: Character Sheet 2: Great character, alignment is a problem though 3: Can't we wave it this time? 4: Wait, did you say DBZ? Forget about it! 5: Screw you then.
feartheinvinceblehamster 03-24-05, 06:27 PM	How are you getting a LG monk/warlock? Warlocks have to be either Chaotic or Evil. read before you post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! plus, the way you do it is that you aren't a mindless slave of WoTC