Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zheon 07-27-06, 05:03 PM	im starting a level one sorcerer in a friends campaign. i was wondering about some useful spells to choose, as well as useful feats for a sorcerer. if you would also give reasons why, it'd be appreciated. thanks.
Immric 07-27-06, 05:40 PM	First you have to decide on how you want to play the character. For combat spell slingers you really can't beat Mage Armour and Magic Missile but it's kind of bland. I've had fun with this combo Expeditious Retreat: Feather Fall: Jump: put skill points into tumble and you could be John Woo with a crossbow. I also liked Mage Hand, Unseen Servant, Shield and or Floating Disk (telekinetic without Psionics) for the sage/investigator Comprehend Languages: Detect Secret Doors: Charm Person. I also made a Jedi inspired character Built around Mage Hand & Charm Person. I think spell selection should be based on what you want the character to be.
Kradlo 07-27-06, 05:52 PM	A lot of your choices will be made depending on what role you want to fill in the party. Your spell selection and the feats you choose can affect these. If you're human, you'll have two feats at the start. I rather like Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath, both from Complete Arcane. Draconic Heritage means you have a greater connection with your distant draconic bloodline. It gives you a choice of dragon types, and depending on your choice, you'll gain a new class skill and a bonus to your saving throws against a certain energy type. If you choose Brass Dragon, for example, you'll get Gather Information as a class skill, and a bonus on saves versus fire equal to the number of Draconic feats you have (including this one). This is the prerequisite feat for all other Draconic feats. Draconic Breath allows you to convert arcane spell energy into a breath weapon of your draconic heritage as a standard action. For example, the aforementioned Brass Dragon heritage would give you a 30-foot cone of fire that deals 2d6 points of damge per level of the spell that you expended to create the effect. Any creature caught in the area of effect can make a Reflex save (DC 10 + level of the spell used + your Cha modifier) for half damage. Draconic Breath is really nice because it's a supernatural ability, which means its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It also works if your character is in the area of a silence spell, is grappled, or is bound up (though not gagged). That's just one path you could take.
Vlatko 07-27-06, 05:55 PM	You could always take toughness as a feat, very helpful when you have little hitpoints.
Asciiman 07-27-06, 06:14 PM	You could always take toughness as a feat, very helpful when you have little hitpoints. Oh my god Vlatko, you just recommended toughness. Go over to the character optimization boards and beg for forgiveness. Your punishment will be severe but it is clearly well worth it. As to the OP, get sleep for sure. As a low level character it is great for thinning out the ranks of your enemies. Magic missle is not worth it simply because at level 1 you only get 1 missle. Mage armor can be of great help for defensive reasons and true strike will help to guarantee a hit with that crossbow if you really need one. As for feats, if you aren't building to a prestige class, which you should as the sorcerer has a life span of 5 levels no more since you gain absolutely nothing extra by staying with it, I'd grab a spell focus so that at levels 6 - 10, a lot of your damaging spells or enchanment spells or even illusions will be all that more potent.
Abulafia 07-27-06, 06:54 PM	A sorcerer is defined by his/her known spell selection. Check out the Definitive Sorcerer Spell List (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183763) for comprehensive discussion of the best sorcerer spells. As far as character options, the Bloodline feats from Dragon 311 are pretty cool. Check them out if you can. Also check out the Player's Handbook II for the Metamagic Specialist variant sorcerer. Incantatrix and Mage of the Arcane Order are both good PrC choices for the pure-caster sorcerer. Have fun!
DarkNick 07-27-06, 07:20 PM	I would get grease spell. It is a great tactical hazard, you can use it to slow people down or take them out of action for a few rounds, casting one on a ledge or narrow walkway makes for a good trap, cast it on your foes weapons, use it on a stuck door or to squeeze through narrow passages, great combination when used with set spears and charging enemies, grease up seige weapons to make them hard to operate, also handy to cast on corners when enemies are giving chase - they end up crashing into a wall. It remains an effective spell at any level (unlike sleep). It is really versitile both in and out of the bedroom.
Zheon 07-27-06, 07:28 PM	Update: im now making a level five sorc. didnt know, my dm just reminded me :banghead: soo, i'll be getting level 2 spells, as well as 3 feats (im human). my stats: 10 15 16 10 6 18(19, due to 4th level) one more thing, i only have access to the PHB 1. only feats and spells from there, please! thanks!
Vlatko 07-27-06, 07:28 PM	Oh my god Vlatko, you just recommended toughness. Go over to the character optimization boards and beg for forgiveness. Your punishment will be severe but it is clearly well worth it. I'm sorry dont hurt me. :(
Nom 07-27-06, 08:13 PM	The most important question a sorcerer can ask is "how often will I use this spell". A wizard is a jack of all trades (and master of most). The sorcerer gets a few more spells, but must specialise. Also, metamagic is a boon for sorcerers. Things to do: * pick spells that can do multiple things with a single spell: summons, illusions and shadow spells are good like this. * have a clear idea what each of your spells will do, each day * pick spells that you will use lots * pick one or two themes and milk them as far as you can Things not to do: * pick infrequent-use utility spells: erase probably isn't a good pick * pick too many 'personal' spells * pick multiple spells that do the same thing: you probably don't need both burning hands and magic missile, nor is there a lot of point in having summon monster at every level.
sanities_eclipse 07-27-06, 08:33 PM	The thing I do with a sorcerer is find spells that would be useful with multiple castings in one situation or is pretty universal over many different situations. As stated earlier, I then ask myself what sort of caster am I (i.e. a battle mage, an illusionist, an enchanter, an aide/helper, a loremaster, etc.) and try to take a majority of those type of spells. Any spell that seems too specific or you feel you will use only occasionally should be glossed over in creation and scrolls or wands should be purchased of them later (the scroll and wand is the sorcerer's best friends). As for feats, improved iniative is always nice, that way you can act quickly and get your spell off or be able to run like...well you know....before that creepy crawly can get to you and bite you. Also, I know that you said only PHB, but if you show your DM the energy substitution feat from Complete Arcane and convince him to allow you to have it, it is the sorcerer's best friend. That one feat can potentally double your spell list by allowing you to subsitute one energy for another in any energy spell. Works great for the times you come across energy resistance of your spell types. And since you can add it on the fly, you don't have to prepare it into a spell like a wizard. Really, most metamagic feats work better with sorcerers then wizards for that reason. From the dark side of the sane Sanities Eclipse
Zheon 07-27-06, 08:40 PM	ill probably want to play a battle mage/useful party member in general. four person party.. im the only arcane. i just need a few generally good spells, for artillery and other useful functions.
psionichamster 07-27-06, 09:01 PM	hmm 5th lvl, which means 4 1st lvl spells and 2 2nd? may i recommend: mage armor grease magic missile enlarge person scorching ray invisibility things to consider: widen spell is your friend. get that at 6th lvl, and you can drop 20' spread greased areas extend spell is your 2nd friend. 2nd lvl spell = 10 hours of mage armor. also means 10 minutes of enlarged fighter/barbarian of the party scorching ray is one of the best 2nd lvl spells in the game. get it. invisibility may not be what you're looking for at this lvl. especially if you aren't going the whole sneaky, hidey type of sorcerer. consider Web, Glitterdust, or See Invisibility. (see invis is GREAT for counter-sneaky fighting, but you may want to pick up some scrolls of it, as having it as one of your spells known may be a little iffy, at least until later, that is) feats-wise, you can't go wrong with spell focus spells. in this case, i would recommend Conjuration, and Greater Spell Focus conjuration at 1st lvl, with extend spell at 3rd. this nets you good protection, grease DC's of 17 (and only gonna get higher when you raise that cha up), and Glitterdust (if you go with that spell) DC of 18. you have a good ref. save spell, a good will save spell (and both are multipurpose), some of the best attack spells in the game, anti-invisibility (glitterdust), party support (enlarge person), and the ability to take "Augment Summoning" preferably at 9th lvl, so Summon Monster V (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterV.htm) can be REALLY effective when you hit 10th lvl. popping in 1d3 fiendish direwolves 3x a day (probably more like 4) is REALLY nice. plus, your extended 4th lvl spells can use up those 5th lvl slots you DON'T use to summon critters. but really, check out the comprehensive sorcerer spell list. it's good. namaste' the hamster
sanities_eclipse 07-27-06, 09:04 PM	If I was making a battle/aide sorcerer, I would probably chose four of these spells for 1st level: Grease Mage Armor Burning Hands Magic Missile ray of enfeeblement enlarge person (grease, I think, doesn't get enough credit. You can cast the spell on a wielded weapon and watch the GM pull his hair out over having to make a saving throw every round he attempts to pick up or use the weapon.) I would then have a list of basic spells on scrolls as a reserve: obscuring mist comprehend languages charm person tenser's floating disk (to haul around your petrified companions) expetious retreat feather fall magic weapon I'll let you choose your own second without my input. I mean this to be an aide. If you find a spell isn't usefull or you are missing a usefull spell, just remember you can swap out one spell every other level, so you are not permanently stuck with your choices.
Zheon 07-28-06, 12:03 AM	i think ive almost decided on spells. 0: arcane mark, detect magic, light, touch of fatigue, message, and either daze or flare. opinions? this one doesnt matter too much i guess. 1: grease (so many people reccomended it. i guess it "plays better than it reads".. although it doesnt seem TOO good, people seem to love this spell.) magic missle (mainly cause i get three) mage armor either charm person or sleep. what do you all think? 2: scorching ray mirror image. for feats: combat casting, scribe scroll spell penetration opinions, anyone? Edit** oh yeah. whats so great about enlarge person? they take a -2 penalty to AC, and do an extra 3 damage on average. they get +5 on grapple, and +1 on str checks. not what i'd call 2nd level spell material. maybe for a wizard..
Zheon 07-28-06, 12:51 AM	hmm.. forums stop working? didnt register my last post as new, and didnt bump the thread.. hate to be a pain, but, bump? heheh.
Vintar 07-28-06, 01:27 AM	Have you considered the battle sorceror - in my opinion it is very much more along the flavor lines of a sorceror. I mean - the fluff talks all about how sorcerors are more worldly-wise than their wizard counter-parts because they don't spend their days cloistered in towers. However all they get for this mechanically is proficiency with simple weapons and bluff. Oh boy! The battle sorceror can actually take a hit - fight somewhat and wear armor. :fight!: As well - the fact that they have another role - knowledge arcana, spellcraft, and concentration aren't all musts - so you actually have the option to have skill points for other things. Actually, I am seriously considering making the battle sorceror the only sorceror in my up-coming campaign (new school year = new campaign - old one was on the verge of dying - and after 3 months...) for these very reasons. However - I must admit that it doesn't fill the arcane caster role all that well - of course - relative to the wizard, neither does the standard sorceror. :rant: But that's already the topic of many a thread.
Nom 07-28-06, 01:39 AM	and either daze or flare. opinions? this one doesnt matter too much i guess.daze is an excellent spell at low levels vs humanoids. Losing a round can be quite a notable penalty. Though you've missed the most obvious uber-flexible spell: prestidigitation. either charm person or sleep. what do you all think?charm person. By the time you hit level 5, most opponents worth spending a spell on have more than 4 HD and are thus un-sleep-able. oh yeah. whats so great about enlarge person? they take a -2 penalty to AC, and do an extra 3 damage on average. they get +5 on grapple, and +1 on str checks. not what i'd call 2nd level spell material. maybe for a wizard..(1) It's a first level spell. (2) You missed the most important thing: natural reach. Natural reach alone makes it a very potent melee buff. Unless your target starts Small, in which case it's pretty useless.
Newpaintbrush 07-28-06, 07:40 AM	OK, let's see: First level spells: 1. Sleep (you can take out an OGRE) ALWAYS take Sleep, it's a no-brainer. Someone said that you're not gonna run into monsters with less than 4 HD. In my experience, that is not generally true. 2. Burning Hands (you take a 5-foot step back, and deal 5d4 area damage. Another no-brainer. It's fire damage (YAY), good against swarms and stuff (YAY) 3. Mage Armor (It lasts a long time, and gives you a real nice bonus) 4. Summon Monster I (You can summon a creature that lasts for five rounds; this is the easiest way to flank an enemy. You don't care if the summoned creature is cut off from the party and isolated), These are things that ONLY a sorc or wiz can use. Burning Hands and Mage Armor are basically your defensive spells. Summon Monster I is a flanking offensive / defensive spell, and Sleep is an offensive spell. Forget Magic Missile; if there are fighters in the party, they can fire arrows. Second level spells: I'm not sure I would go with Mirror Image. Useful, sure, but . . . you need to pick and choose. I would probably go with Scorching Ray. But my other spell would probably be Alter Self, Web, or Invisibility. Alter Self lets you fly or breathe underwater (I think). Web can be used for defense or offense. Invisibility the same. All of those are things that ONLY a sor or wiz can do. Mirror Image? HOPEFULLY you have some fighter and clerical backup.
Bart 07-28-06, 07:43 AM	nom is 100% correct about prestidigitation, charm person and enlarge person combat casting, scribe scroll spell penetrationI don't think those feats will be very useful. - A 5' step is usually much safer than defensive casting etc. - Scribe scroll can only give you more castings of the spells you already know so it's a wizard's friend but not so very useful to a sorcerer. - spell penetration probably won't be needed for another couple of levels when SR becomes more common. Rather, I think SF can be a good feat, but do think a litte about what types of spell you're likely to want. Imo all schools except divination and abjuration are good candidates so it depends on what you like and what the campaign will be like (enchantment and illusion are not very useful against undead etc.) If you don't know what it will be like, you rarely go totally wrong with conjuration, evocation or transmutation.
Merestil Haye 07-28-06, 08:20 AM	i think ive almost decided on spells. 0: arcane mark, detect magic, light, touch of fatigue, message, and either daze or flare. opinions? this one doesnt matter too much i guess.Read Magic. Drop Touch of Fatigue. It's a touch spell that allows a save. 1: grease (so many people reccomended it. i guess it "plays better than it reads".. although it doesnt seem TOO good, people seem to love this spell.) magic missle (mainly cause i get three) mage armor either charm person or sleep. what do you all think?Neither. Sleep is useful at low levels, but should be swapped out at 6th, probably for Magic Missile. Take something else. I'd think about Identify, if you're the only arcanist. 2: scorching ray mirror image.Pretty good. Think about See Invisibility though. And Rope Trick. for feats: combat casting, scribe scroll spell penetrationDrop Scribe Scroll, now. Sorcerers should never take item creation feats. you should be thinking of a metamagic feat or a general feat. I'd go with either Extend or, if planning extensive use of ray spells Point-Blank Shot, taking Precise Shot asap. Also consider Skill Focus (Concentration) over Combat Casting; the bonus is one less, but applies to all Concentration checks. opinions, anyone? Edit** oh yeah. whats so great about enlarge person? they take a -2 penalty to AC, and do an extra 3 damage on average. they get +5 on grapple, and +1 on str checks. not what i'd call 2nd level spell material. maybe for a wizard..It's a first level spell. They also get 10' reach - which is a bigtime benefit except in cramped quarters, especially for characters with Combat Reflexes. I'm also not sure whether you are reckoning the increased damage dice into the benefits.
Zheon 07-28-06, 12:52 PM	Read Magic. Drop Touch of Fatigue. It's a touch spell that allows a save. best point anyone has made all day. quite true, merestil haye. i will be taking read magic instead of touch of fatigue. anyone want to give an example or two of what useful things prestidigitation can do? ive no doubts about its uses, but as of now im not too convinced to take it. im also concidering charm person, as it isnt affected by hit dice, only by the opponents will save. for me, a fifth level fighter is still going to have to make a 12 or 13 on his roll or be charmed. not too bad. plus, it'll only get better as i go up the levels. (cha bonus. bam.) ive concidered enlarge person, but im not too convinced. our last barbarian has a nice philosophy. knock one down, and another one fills in the space. why reach over to attack? just knock down the guy in front of him. heh. although, i WILL take it at higher levels. its just, for lack of a better saying, more trouble than its worth when i only get 4 spells. im also now deciding between identify and charm person. as for mirror image, which was questioned somewhat, keep in mind that i am a battle sorcerer, primarily. im the artillery. when an enemy jumps past the meatshiled, i cast this spell. if the meatshield falls, this spell. its better than invisibility, because, i can attack and retain its benefits. coupled with invisibility at later levels, this could be useful. for now however, i regard this as much more of a defensive spell. on a note, i did concider web and invisibility. i may pick them up at later levels. for feats: im kinda new at the whole arcane thing. this is the first one ive played. as such, i dont know what feats are useful. feats i would love to have include craft wand, and maximize spell. beyond that, im a little fuzzy. i dont want either YET, however, because i cant use them. any suggestions for useful feats for me to take, while being, essentially, the *artillery* of the party? Edit** took an in depth look at Web. im starting to see why its so useful. maybe ill take mirror image later instead of web later. web is my 2nd level for now.
sanities_eclipse 07-28-06, 12:57 PM	mirror image seems OK for your own defense, but the problem with taking too many defense spells is that unless you have ALOT of scenarios with the time to cast spells before battle, you have the problem of spending half the battle prepping for it (which always ticks off the party mates), or have wasted spells sitting in your list. I would suggest a different style of defensive spell then the personal kind. The party kind, that all can benefit from. Like web (stick them in place then burn the web for extra damage) or glitterdust (blinds the coated creature making it harder to hit you and has more then one use of showing you invisible things). Personally I like web for the burn for extra damage effect, but it is useless out in the open plains. I guess every spell will have its downfall. for zero levels, I would go with prestidigitation instead of touch of fatigue and daze over flare any day. Charm person is ten times better then sleep. And I would try to get a set of Bracers of AC of 3 or higher so I could switch out mage arwor when I do, preferibly for burning hands if you take the web spell (burn web burn! for an extra 2d4 none the less) As for feats, scribe scroll is bad for a sorcerer. Buy them, don't make them (or you won't be able to expand your list of available spells on scrolls). Spell penetration is really a higher character feat (for when monsters start having high SR). And improved initiative is better then combat casting (that way you can tie them up with spells before they get to you. And like it was said earlier, a five foot step is just as effective a good 70%, or more, of the time. Go for metamagic feats that complement your spell choices (extend, widen are good. So is still and eschew materials for when you get grappled. Later(1-3 spell levels later), empower, maximize, and quicken become very usefeul.) Also if you are using rays alot (scorching ray and such) Precise and point blank shots are very handy for this (its not for just bowmen any more) personally I would go for mainly metamagic feats. It gives your limited spell list alot more versitility. From the dark side of the sane Sanities Eclipse
sanities_eclipse 07-28-06, 01:05 PM	The 10 foot reach makes it so approaching causes an attack of opportunity for the big guy. Prestidigation is a bunch of spells in one. Light a fire (small flame from fingertip). Clean yourself off from a stinky sewer excursion (clean part). lift a light item. Personally I use it all the time, but mostly for humerous moments or to better the roleplaying experiance. I forgot about identify. That is a BIG help spell. Load up on pearls thou when you take it.
Nom 07-29-06, 12:19 AM	Oh, and take Skill Focus (Concentration) over Combat Casting. +3 on all Concentration checks is a lot better than +4 on checks to cast defensively only.
psionichamster 07-29-06, 12:50 AM	for feats: pick what you'd rather be good at: shooting people with rays (always a good choice) or upping your DC's against your spells. you should really consider dropping your 1st lvl and human feat into either Spell Focus (whichever school you really like) and Greater Spell Focus (that school), OR Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. cuz, even with a touch attack, shooting into Melee, when they have cover, gives them a whopping +8 AC against your shot. you want them to hit, you need to focus on them feats. (or plan on NOT using rays against the people in direct combat against you/ your enemies) sleep is good, don't get me wrong, but it's gonna lose its effectiveness soon. unless you plan on mugging commoners or baseline goblins/kobolds. consider keeping it, and switching out for magic missile, enlarge person, or another 1st lvl spell (ray of enfeeblement is a good choice, since at 6th lvl, it's going to do 1d6+3 str penalty). now: notes on why multi-use spells are key for a sorcerer. spells like prestidigitation, grease, and the like are your bread and butter magic, since you have such limited spells known. grease can do a number of things: slow a charge, force balance checks (and therefore losing dex if the target has < 5 rks of balance), get you or a party member out of a grapple (+10 to grapple check/escape artist to escape), disarm people (and then require further saves to re-wield that weapon), not to mention the "out of combat" fun you can have with it. multiuse spells are THAT important. you can't have a spell for every contingency. that's the focus of the wizard. you CAN have more spells than you'll need for a given day, and having spells with flexibility allows YOU to be more flexible. that being said, this IS your character, and you seem to have a decent grasp of how to make up your characters. although, for 3rd lvl, i HIGHLY recommend Extend Spell. slap that on Mage Armor (2nd lvl slot, when you wake up) and you're protected for 10 hours. more time than you'll be adventuring, probably. you can ALSO use it for Web, Grease, Summon Monster Spells (if you take them), Enlarge, Charm, in just 1 more lvl (in the case of Web). for 6th lvl, consider Spell Focus: Evocation and Fireball. nothing says "artillery" like 4 x DC 19 reflex saves, at long range, for 6d6 fire. namaste' the hamster
Zheon 07-29-06, 03:21 AM	ive settled on some spells. any other ones you have reccomended will probably be taken at later levels. 0: arcane mark read magic, detect magic, light, daze, message 1: magic missile grease mage armor enlarge person 2: scorching ray web feats: spell focus (evocation) greater " " " extend spell soo.. im still open to advice, of which i'll add to the character rather than put on him right now. thanks for all the help. PS: it'll be a DC 20 reflex save on my fireball. :P
King_Bulba 07-29-06, 04:25 AM	Yeah get GREASE! It is usable from level 1 to level 20. I am serious. Have a 20 HD frenzied bezerker coming at you? Why waste higher level spells when you can disable him with a first level spell. The frenzied beserker has to make a relflex check or fall, which he auto fails. Then to move he has to make a balance check which he auto fails. The nasty FB is now traped on the floor. Anything that doesn't have a good reflex save will have a large chance at failing and even if they have a good reflex they still need to make a DC 10 balance check. DC 10 is not high but most mobs and people dont have ranks in balance, probally a 50% to 25% chance someone will fall. Reason 2 to have grease is because if you are on grease you need to balance, unless you are prone. If you do not have 5 ranks in balance then you are considered flatfooted. This allows rogues to make sneak attacks without flanking. Some may disagree with this because of the wording but that is why you have DMs. Some say when you stand on grease you dont balance but logic says differently. Reason 3 it just can be used in many little tricks. Grease on the floor + battery ram = auto side off the grease and if you do it next to a cliff... /bye bye monster. Going against a charging build then grease the ground in front of the party so if it charges over the grease it auto falls the grease. Also I recommend PH2 veriant sorcerer where you do not get a familure but you can use metamagic without increased time. This let you do some cool things. With energy substitution you can change a fireball to a coldball at will. See a plant creature it is a good bet to switch your ice spells to fire. This gives a sorcerer the ability to take one spell instead of many to get around energy resistance. As for feats I recommend getting, eschew materials at 1 and energy substitution at 3. My DM gives sorcerers eschew materials for free seeing that it makes sense with the flavor of a sorcerer. Can always ask your DM if he does that, cant hurt to ask hehe.
Merestil Haye 07-29-06, 05:31 AM	iPS: it'll be a DC 20 reflex save on my fireball. :PThis is why I think you should not consider crafting wands. Your Fireball has a good DC. If you make a wand of Fireball, though, the saving throw against spells from the wand is 14. Bit of a difference. Item creation is better handled by clerics and wizards, who can learn the wide variety of spells necessary to be good at it.
psionichamster 07-29-06, 08:44 AM	looks good keep in mind, your Spell Focus Evocation and GSF Evoc. will not apply to any of your spells yet. i know you're banking on fireball (as would i), but they are technically "wasted" for right now. unless you have a specific 6th lvl feat in mind (widen spell, imp. init, Point Blank Shot are all good choices), consider SF: Conjuration for now, and get GSF:Evoc. at 6th, when it counts. at least that way, your Web and Grease (spells you will be using ALL the time) spells will benefit from the feat. it also opens up "Augment Summoning", which is one of my FAVORITE feats...just too cool to have +4 str/con on every summoned critter forever! also consider picking up Burning Hands at 7th lvl. especially if you plan on getting Widen Spell later on. setting that much stuff on fire is just so much fun...you're kinda like a dragon, all by yourself! namaste' the hamster
sanities_eclipse 07-29-06, 10:42 PM	ditto on burning hands. I usually take it as my primary 1st level attack spell and magic missile as the secondary instead of the stereotypical other way around.
Feriin 07-30-06, 10:18 AM	This is why I think you should not consider crafting wands. Your Fireball has a good DC. If you make a wand of Fireball, though, the saving throw against spells from the wand is 14. Bit of a difference. Item creation is better handled by clerics and wizards, who can learn the wide variety of spells necessary to be good at it. I might be wrong here, but we have played it that if a player makes a scroll,wand,what have you. Then that item casts its spells just as powerful as the caster who created it. (yes it costs a little for the creation when we do it this way) The reason why wand of fireballs has a dc 14 is because they aer made as cheaply and at as low of a level as possible.
Merestil Haye 07-30-06, 10:34 AM	I might be wrong here, but we have played it that if a player makes a scroll,wand,what have you. Then that item casts its spells just as powerful as the caster who created it. (yes it costs a little for the creation when we do it this way)I'm afraid that the rules do not support this; they explicitly state that the saving throw from an item is Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.There is no allowance for the ability score of the creator, or the character activating the item, being used to determine the saving throw DC. (Staves are an exception to the latter). You can houserule otherwise, but then face the problem of determining the price - since if you have two identical-effect spells but one is harder to save against than the other, the one with the higher save DC will be more sought after and therefore become worth more.
taradusis 07-30-06, 10:38 AM	Consider what it takes for the dragon disciple prc.You may want to add fluff to your character by asking your Gm if you can create the dragon you descended from and if they're still around do they take an interest in their offspring?Some dragons might oversee networks of half-dragons and dragon disciples that they use as pawns.Just some "fluffy" thoughts :)
Kradlo 07-30-06, 12:45 PM	Oh, and take Skill Focus (Concentration) over Combat Casting. +3 on all Concentration checks is a lot better than +4 on checks to cast defensively only. I'm in agreement with this one.
psionichamster 08-02-06, 07:32 PM	on the wands/scrolls issue i believe this is taken into consideration with the Artificer class (and therefore may be an Eberron exception) but, pray tell, WHY would a wand, created by an 18 int caster, have a save dc of LESS than 4+spell level? there is a provision for making a meta-magicked version of the same fireball (albeit at a higher spell level, and likely caster lvl, therefore increasing the price), so why not for higher-statted wizards/sorcerers/bards/artificers? the purchaseable wands and scrolls are listed as the minimum caster lvl and casting stat modifier because that keeps the cost down. (ie, the less smart wizards are better off making wands of fireball and selling them, rather than going out and failing to do damage WITH their little DC 14 fireballs) of course, there's no way to actually MAKE money making magic items, if you're a PC (what with the whole ".5 cost/sell ratio", so, you need not worry about them "ruining" the magical economies, anyways... namaste' the hamster
Zheon 08-02-06, 08:55 PM	on the wands/scrolls issue i believe this is taken into consideration with the Artificer class (and therefore may be an Eberron exception) but, pray tell, WHY would a wand, created by an 18 int caster, have a save dc of LESS than 4+spell level? there is a provision for making a meta-magicked version of the same fireball (albeit at a higher spell level, and likely caster lvl, therefore increasing the price), so why not for higher-statted wizards/sorcerers/bards/artificers? the purchaseable wands and scrolls are listed as the minimum caster lvl and casting stat modifier because that keeps the cost down. (ie, the less smart wizards are better off making wands of fireball and selling them, rather than going out and failing to do damage WITH their little DC 14 fireballs) of course, there's no way to actually MAKE money making magic items, if you're a PC (what with the whole ".5 cost/sell ratio", so, you need not worry about them "ruining" the magical economies, anyways... namaste' the hamster so you mean.. why would an 18 int wizards wand of fireball be DC 14? well.. his normal fireball is 10+int mod+spell level = 17. however, the wands use the (int mod) of the lowest possible stat to use for casting that level spell, ie. for a 3rd level spell, int 13. so if the wand uses an assumed int 13 for a fireball, then the DC = 10+1+3 = 14. see?
Elizar 08-02-06, 09:52 PM	Since I'm currently playing my first Sorcerer character, and I've taken him from 1st to 8th level (so far), I thought I'd offer up my approach so far to the class. I wanted to take advantage of the more martial aspect of Sorcerers over Wizards (simple weapon proficiency and lots of flexiblity with spells), so I decided I'd be a warrior/mage type, specialized in the best of the Sorcerer weapons, the spear. I chose "shortspear", so that I could use my fairly decent STR (16) and my more than decent DEX (18) to maximum advantage. Also, not being allowed armor and having next to no hitpoints, I wanted to stay out of melee if at all possible. :) I chose almost all martial feats for the beginning, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Far Shot..later adding Dodge to keep myself out of melee and alive long enough to do some good. With a party of 4 others (Fighter, Ranger, Thief, and Cleric), I found that a support position was ideal for my Sorcerer. I was even able to draw the fire of the few magic-using enemies we've come across long enough to let the more physical team members close. (usually the evil spellcasters will target the winged guy shooting at them, it seems) All the while adding my occasional d8 spear damage and Magic Missle without worrying about hitting my teammates. For the spells, I did cop out and choose Mage Armor and Magic Missile-cliche though they may be. I found that they were perfect for my character concept, and since for some reason we kept being harrassed by ethereal/semi-ethereal creatures, the force nature of both attack and defense saved my life several times over. Once I gained a few more spells, I added Shield to the mix, giving me a really decent AC (which is good, because if I get hit, it's probably all over!). I've also worked my way up to Lightning Bolt for my 3rd level blast spell (enemies might not cluster, but they will have a hard time not configuring to some sort of line within 100' !), Alter Self to enhance my mobility and add water breathing (the more versatile a spell, the better it is for Sorcerers, I'd say), Web for slowing down pursuit/preventing the party from being surrounded, ...Ghost Sound has proven to be a very effective decoy to lure monsters to an ambush, and even Prestidigitation has proven most useful (I once used it to clean a section of muddied water to give us a chance to see a creature lurking there, saved us a surprise attack!). Most recently, I've taken Polymorph Self-like I mentioned before, versatility is the key to Sorcerer spell choice. Now if only my DM and I could agree on exactly how it works... :rolleyes:
trapspringer 08-02-06, 10:03 PM	You really, really should take prestidigitation. Like, if you don't, you should have your sorcerer's license revoked. I mean, we're talkin' world-ending catastrophe here if you don't. It has been described as limited, limited wish on these boards. You can use it to change the color of things, clean things, mage-hand things, create things, flavor things, and that is purely core rule off the top of my head. This thing pwns. I also have to advise that you pick a theme, like the guy who talked about the whole jedi thing did. If you do this, your DM shouldn't mind you shuffling the flavor text around to make it fit, and you will be much mroe satisfied with the results. Also, you will find that you wind up taking a full compliment of spell types just because there are so many spells that fit into any one concept that you can pull it off.
Zheon 08-02-06, 10:14 PM	can alter or polymorph self be permanencied? just wondering. anyone? the theme idea is good. as for prestidigi, ill take it next time i have the opp. ive also concidered shield. with mage armor my AC is around 20.. shield would give me one whopper of a number at level 5, especially for a sorc, no?
King_Bulba 08-02-06, 11:46 PM	Maybe it is a houserule but anything the PCs make are at the DCs the PCs make them at. Only items you didnt make yourself are automaticlly at the lowest possible DC.
Merestil Haye 08-03-06, 04:36 AM	Maybe it is a houserule but anything the PCs make are at the DCs the PCs make them at. Only items you didnt make yourself are automaticlly at the lowest possible DC.That is most definitely a houserule. The issue is this - base price reflects (more accurately, is supposed to reflect) power. A Fireball wand is a good example. A wand crafted at 5th level is priced at 11,250gp. A wand crafted at 10th level is priced at 22,500gp. It does roughly twice the average damage. How would you price a wand of Fireball crafted at 5d6 but with a save DC of 18 compared to the standard wand? It delivers a higher damage output than the standard wand - more creatures fail the saving throw. Why should it be the same price? There is no simple mechanism for pricing a saving throw DC increase thus the designers decided to make all items with the same save DC to keep it simple. I would tend to agree with that.
Wuggadad 08-03-06, 04:38 AM	Dragon 330 had a section for sorcerers on Spheres. See also: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf Basically, a certain sphere of spells will have +1 caster level, and its opposite set will have -2 caster level. That could make a Summon Monster last 2 rounds at level 1, or make a burning hands do decent damage.
King_Bulba 08-03-06, 04:55 AM	That is most definitely a houserule. The issue is this - base price reflects (more accurately, is supposed to reflect) power. A Fireball wand is a good example. A wand crafted at 5th level is priced at 11,250gp. A wand crafted at 10th level is priced at 22,500gp. It does roughly twice the average damage. How would you price a wand of Fireball crafted at 5d6 but with a save DC of 18 compared to the standard wand? It delivers a higher damage output than the standard wand - more creatures fail the saving throw. Why should it be the same price? There is no simple mechanism for pricing a saving throw DC increase thus the designers decided to make all items with the same save DC to keep it simple. I would tend to agree with that. Ummm rereard what I said, DCs not caster level... They are two different things. Yeah if you want to pay more by adding more caster levels you can. I am not saying you get more CLs for free. I am saying that you add your int mod to a wand for DCs if you make it. Random wands automaticly uses the base int to be able to cast the spell. This promotes people to make their own gear and gives them an incentive... Like I said its a houserule but It makes sense that objects creator can use it more effeciently... than random people.
gos_jim 08-03-06, 05:02 PM	I definitely recommend taking Enlarge Person. One of the most powerful characters I ever ran was a half-orc barbarian/sorcerer who would Enlarge himself when we got into fights. He was about 5th level himself, a nice thing about Enlarge is yeah, it gives you some bonuses to whatever, but some people overlook the fact that it increases your actual weapon damage as well. Rage and Enlarge attribute bonuses combine, so that's a +6 boost to Strength. We were eventually killed when the DM sent two hill giants at us (I think we were like 6 or 7 maybe). I was fighting one while the rest of the party held off the other, I dropped mine (not without difficulty, mind you. If I had 2 attacks a round instead of 1 from my sorcerer level, he would have been toast *shakes fist*), turned around to help the rest of the party, but we eventually dropped. I would have died at the end of the combat anyways, I was almost dead and when rage dropped it would have been all over. Your party barbarian will change his mind when it gets cast on him. Not to mention that if he has cleave, all of a sudden he can reach a lot farther to cleave things. Edit: I see most of this was already mentioned, _and_ you already decided to take it. So oh well. But another thing I wanted to bring up was Enlarge makes grappling a whole heck of a lot easier, as not only do you get the boost to strength, but being large gives you a size bonus. Need to pin that nasty monster down? Enlarge gives you a nice advantage.
psionichamster 08-03-06, 07:11 PM	That is most definitely a houserule. The issue is this - base price reflects (more accurately, is supposed to reflect) power. A Fireball wand is a good example. A wand crafted at 5th level is priced at 11,250gp. A wand crafted at 10th level is priced at 22,500gp. It does roughly twice the average damage. How would you price a wand of Fireball crafted at 5d6 but with a save DC of 18 compared to the standard wand? It delivers a higher damage output than the standard wand - more creatures fail the saving throw. Why should it be the same price? There is no simple mechanism for pricing a saving throw DC increase thus the designers decided to make all items with the same save DC to keep it simple. I would tend to agree with that. Craft Wand:Craft Wand [Item Creation] Prerequisite Caster level 5th. Benefit You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level × the spell level × 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges. Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost. Magic Items: WandsA wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. Each wand has 50 charges when created, and each charge expended allows the user to use the wand’s spell one time. A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick. Physical Description A typical wand is 6 inches to 12 inches long and about ¼ inch thick, and often weighs no more than 1 ounce. Most wands are wood, but some are bone. A rare few are metal, glass, or even ceramic, but these are quite exotic. Occasionally, a wand has a gem or some device at its tip, and most are decorated with carvings or runes. A typical wand has AC 7, 5 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 16. Activation Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole. Special Qualities Roll d%. A 01-30 result indicates that something (a design, inscription, or the like) provides some clue to the wand’s function, and 31-100 indicates no special qualities. Wand Descriptions All wands are simply storage devices for spells and thus have no special descriptions. Refer to the spell descriptions for all pertinent details. upon close re-reading of both the Craft Wand feat and the description of Wands in general (under Magic Items), i have found NOTHING that would suggest that the "lowest possible int mod" factored into the DMG "for sale" wands are anything but a convention of the DMG. that being said, it falls into the purview of "DM discretion" regarding all final pricing of magic items (as CLEARLY stated in the DMG), so MUST be relegated to a judgement call no matter what. HOWEVER, when it comes to creating a wand for (and by) personal use, it is inane to suggest that a LOWER prime casting stat MUST be used in place of the actual stat of the Caster/Creator. in fact, it clearly states that to CREATE a wand is to effectively cast the spell (see bolded text at the bottom of the "wand description" Sblock). so, your 18 int wizard (or 18 cha sorc or 18 wis cleric) makes a wand. he casts the spell in the process of creating the wand. Normally, that spell has a DC (if applicable) of 14+spell level. Since he has cast this spell into a wand (thereby expending GP, XP, and Time), the DC now gets lowered to NO MORE THAN 16 (int 14 + 4th lvl spells, max capacity for a wand) the question of simplicity here is immaterial. we are not talking about the DMG-listed "wands for sale". instead, the topic of discussion is the creation of wands by a PC with a (presumably) higher than necessary casting stat to cast those spells. namaste' the hamster
Merestil Haye 08-04-06, 05:07 AM	upon close re-reading of both the Craft Wand feat and the description of Wands in general (under Magic Items), i have found NOTHING that would suggest that the "lowest possible int mod" factored into the DMG "for sale" wands are anything but a convention of the DMG.There is a rule to set saving throw DCs, for all items, not just wands. The rule does not say "the saving throw DC is 10 + spell level + the makers relevant spellcasting modifier. For simplicity assume it is the lowest when items are found as treasure." The rule - not a convention. the clearly stated rule - readsSaving Throws Against Magic Item Powers Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC. Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly). If you want to say otherwise you are houseruling.
InterSilva 08-04-06, 03:36 PM	Update: im now making a level five sorc. didnt know, my dm just reminded me :banghead: soo, i'll be getting level 2 spells, as well as 3 feats (im human). my stats: 10 15 16 10 6 18(19, due to 4th level) one more thing, i only have access to the PHB 1. only feats and spells from there, please! thanks! Ouch, I'd switch that 6 Wis with your 10 Str. That's just me, though.
psionichamster 08-06-06, 04:46 PM	There is a rule to set saving throw DCs, for all items, not just wands. The rule does not say "the saving throw DC is 10 + spell level + the makers relevant spellcasting modifier. For simplicity assume it is the lowest when items are found as treasure." The rule - not a convention. the clearly stated rule - readsIf you want to say otherwise you are houseruling. fair enough, although i don't agree, nor see the logic inherent in that rule, and will not be using it. guess that's another "assumed" houserule in my games oh well namaste' the hamster
Zheon 08-06-06, 05:28 PM	Ouch, I'd switch that 6 Wis with your 10 Str. That's just me, though. hm.. nah. im getting a good will save anyways, and i dont plan on making a whole lot. the dm is semi-new. ..not to mention im CN and i wanna be the "irrational magic user" guy :P
psionichamster 08-06-06, 06:09 PM	so, Zheon....has your sorc. seen the light of day yet? got any war stories to share? namaste' the hamster
Zheon 08-06-06, 07:50 PM	ahh, im afraid not. my DM is being lazy. should some time soon though, hopefully. ill post when that happens :)
Puca 08-07-06, 10:16 AM	Merestil Haye is correct on wand DCs. Even if that were not the case, most creation feats, wand and scroll certainly included, are poor choices for spontaneous casters. As a general rule, you need access to a spell to craft the item. If a sorcerer has a spell on his list of spells-known, why make a wand of it? You can likely cast it multiple times a day already at full caster-level. Doesnt make sense to then have a wand to poorly duplicate what you can already do better for free. You can get someone else to cast the spell or use scrolls. But, especially as you get to items with greater costs, the necessary spells really start to eat into your profit margin. With your limited spells known, you need to invest your money into buying wands and scrolls of the spells you dont have to make up for your gaps and not waste your resources on making items of spells you already have access to. You also have a very limited number of feats, which are more precious than gold. Sorcerers just arent crafters.