Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Landman 09-27-05, 01:37 AM	My friends are long time players of D&D and are starting a new campaign to which they have invited me. It will be my first time playing, and Im really looking forward to it. On Saturday we are having a "character creation" day. I want to get some advice going into the session so I can make a good character. I've been flipping through a friend's Handbook and here are some of my general impressions: I really really want to make a Rogue character. He should be somewhat thief-like: very cunning, mysterious, opportunist and attracted to items! Would that be a neutral chaotic alignment? I would like to get lots of skills, so I was thinking of taking intelligence as my second highest attribute (After dexterity), having high charisma and leaving strength at basically a minimum. I'm not much interested in magic, but I guess some combat skills are necessary, though I would try to avoid combat whenever possible. Would using a ranged weapon be my best option? I really know nothing about D&D combat (other than having played KOTOR) Speaking of which, I do like sneak attack. Also, I was strongly considering being either Elven or Half-Elf. A weaker possibility is halfling. What would everyone recommend. Thanks in advance for any advice, guys!
Blazara 09-27-05, 02:56 AM	Most rogues i DM play the way that you are thinking so i can offer abit of advice. Make Dex your highest score, then INT so you can get the skills required to survive in the urban jungle. CHA is a good one to have as it boosts up some nessecary skills that you will need to use. Most of the rogues i have seen tend to have low WIS and mediocre STR and CON. I tend to use this against them by sometimes implementing mind controling spells. I would recemend using a heavy crossbow, as it doesn't require you to have a good strength to use it so if you are thinking about having a low str then ranged is the best bet. Also Remember to use your skills at the right time. I have seen too many rogues die because they have forgotten to use their skills or used them at the wrong time. Hope this has helped
Eaglos 09-27-05, 03:27 AM	You know rogues are not always about stealing and sneaking. Go for something not so common. Max out Strength and Charisma so as to intimidate/seduce people. Use your looks to acquire shinny objects ;) Also, put some points to Inteligence so that you could get some skills. After a while you could turn to "charming" magic and become a great manipulator :cool:
Tedly224 09-27-05, 03:45 AM	Dex and Intelligence are both very important for your character if you are the only rogue and Trapfinder for the party. Try to get a 14 or higher in Intelligence if you can at the start as later increases to Intelligence aren't retroactive in granting you more skill points for earlier levels. If you are the group's only trapfinder, Search, Open Locks, and Disarm Device should all be maxed as much as possible. I'm going to go out on a limb and strongly suggest you attempt to keep Use Magic Device maxed as well, even if your charisma is a meager 10. It is extremely useful in handling wands or scrolls even though you're not a caster. Hide and Move Silently go without question as being very useful, and finally, some Tumble goes a long ways in moving to position yourself in and out of danger in fights for lining up Sneak Attacks. Also, consider some ranks in Appraise if no one else in the party is taking it so you can be on better footing on determining what those gems and jewelry and the like are worth when you go to sell them. Sleight of Hand can only lead to heartbreak and trouble in the average group unless you really dedicate yourself to having it maxed for your level, and are careful in how you use it. Social Skills are great but honestly, if the group has a charismatic character already (bard, sorcerer, paladin) force them to take skills for diplomacy and the like and focus on other areas. A final word about combat for your rogue. With all of that dex and intelligence you focused on, chances are your strength may not be all that great. Seriously consider bumping up your constitution over strength or charisma as you can use the better hit points and very commonly checked Fortitude saves. If you go this route, two weapon fighting and weapon finesse are for you. Remember that Sneak Attacking can be done on any target that is Flat Footed, Flanked, or otherwise denied their dexterity to armor class. Aside from Plants, Undead, and Golems (usually just those) you can gain your sneak attack damage on most foes. Unless you are using a feat or special attack that states otherwise, you ALWAYS gain your Sneak Attack bonus dice on ALL attacks that you strike a vulnerable foe with. This is a key point - don't miss out on your fair hits or let your DM miss it. It counts for your off hand attack AND additional attacks you might get from a high Basic Attack Bonus. Setting up foes to be flanked is a big thing. It can be done easily with party clerics or druids summoning even one or more weak monsters to help in a fight with Flanking a foe. Remember - a foe is considered to be flanked whenever two subjects are focused and fighting the target from opposite sides of the victim. You do NOT have to be one of those people who are Flanking to get your Sneak Attack damage on the victim, although you can be if you want. There's more advice in the Character Optimization Board Stickie FAQ, but those are the basics. Have fun!
Gedrin 09-27-05, 04:00 AM	If you're having a "character creation day", you're probably in good hands. The only thing I'm gonna say is... DO NOT STEAL FROM THE PARTY ...but I'm guessing you knew that already. :)
braindead345 09-27-05, 04:16 AM	I agree that INT should be high, sometimes even higher than your DEX score. It really depends on the type of rogue you want to play. Also don't skimp on you CON score, especially if you play an Elf. The advantage to playing an Elf Rogue are the bonuses to Listen, Search, and Spot Checks; the extended weapon proficiencies; and ths Saves vs. enchantment bonuses. Use these bonuses to your advantage. A longbow might not do the damage of a heavy crossbow, but the rate of fire makes up for it. As for starting skills, I recommend quite a few ranks in Disable Device, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), and Survival along with those normally selected for rogue characters (Move Silently, Hide, Spot, etc). The Gather Information is often under-used and for good reason; so skip it at first level. A Craft, Profession, or Pereformance skill would help make an excellent disguise; but avoid those skills that are labor based (carpentry or stone mason, for example). Instead go with something such as Scribe or Accountant. Equipment for rogues is tricky because most people fail to realize what they get in the Thieves' Tools Kit. The other important items are Silk Rope, boots with a concealed sheath for a dagger, a crowbar, and suitable clothing. These items are not absolutely vital, but they can be of great use.
Bopple 09-27-05, 04:31 AM	1. I recommend human. And Int as the highest stat. Then Dex next. If you are going to be a melee type, get Weapon Finesse(but you can't get this at 1st lvl). And you need high Con for melee type. 2. Most valuable skills: Listen, Search, Spot, Disable Device, Diplomacy, Gather Information(listed in no specific order). Max them out. 3. Take Two-Weapon Fighting route to maximize your sneak-attack. 4. If you don't go TWF route, aim for Shadowdancer for your first(and only) prestige class. 1 or 2 lvl is good enough. No more. 5. Don't screw others' fun by playing a sociopath, in the name of chaotic neutral.
malrick 09-27-05, 07:41 AM	best advise, no stealing from party, divide the loot from a fight somewhat fairly. truth be told pick pocket is a pain in the ***** for dm most the time. ecspecialy if your new to the game and the rouge. I've seen a lot of players try to get rich in one night using pickpocket, one, it consumes game time, two, most DMs won't let you be to greedy as wealth is balancing factor in the game, rest assured bail and fines will be likely more than you made stealing. a lot of first time rouges think stealing from the party is a great idea, 1 it's somewhat likely to get you thrown out of group (depending on group) 2(and more likely) it will get you PKed. an unfair you'd be likely to win, a fair and your making your 2nd character. I'm not saying this will happen, I'm not saying don't play a rouge. I'm saying it supposed to be a team effort, don't annoy the DM or anybody else til they give you a reason. as for race, elf or dwarf. elf spot secret doors easy, dwarfs spot everything as long as it is in a cave. your new I'd pick one these races you don't have remember to actively search at least not as often. a crossbow will be your best friend at level one, TWF is OK but rouges in melee die fairly easy, and when it hit the fan, the wizard will likely be the first rescued provided he/she is still alive. that said, own a melee weapon just don't rely on it til it takes more than 2 hits to knock you down. your new ask questions, note you cant fire a ranged weapon while engaged in melee without somebody getting a free swing at you. there are a lot of rules i can't list all of them. try to learn a few rules at a time, your party and dm should be helpful, note should be.
JD 09-27-05, 07:45 AM	Don't forget that rogues benefit from the balance / jump / tumble SYNERGY MAYHEM, so it's often a good idea to put plenty of ranks in those, especially if your DM enjoys making you leap across rooftops like mine.
Landman 09-28-05, 12:29 AM	Hmm thanks for the advice... Im still not quite sure what weapons i should focus on. It seems like these are my options 2 handed melee - Can get in the most damage from sneak attack. No sneak attack = mediocre. Also tends to make you die right away. I will probably steer clear of this since I don't want to die to easily. Crossbow - Ignores bad strength score and uses high dex score. Long bow/ other bow - takes a penalty compared to crossbow for low str, but shoots faster so may be able to get in more damage from sneak attack? Is this basically right? Also, I was looking through the handbook and didnt see all that many interesting feats. Any recommmendations on those??
TheDarknessWithin 09-28-05, 12:51 AM	Well for feats it really depends on the type of rogue you want to play. I personally suggest getting Improved Initiative as it will increase for initiative modifier and allow you to catch more opponents flat footed (thereby allowing you to sneak attack them). and third level pick up weapon finesse so that you can use your dex modifier to attack rolls instead of strength when using light weapons. From there I would go up the archery line of feats point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot etc. My personal recommendation for a race would have to be halfling. They get bonuses to lots of skills that rogues typically use. Well hope you give my recommendations some thought, good luck and happy playing!!
Lurk3r 09-28-05, 12:55 AM	Long bow/ other bow - takes a penalty compared to crossbow for low str, but shoots faster so may be able to get in more damage from sneak attack? I'm also a somewhat new player going the rogue route, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's possible to get sneak attack damage from a ranged attack, at least not under normal circumstances. That's why I personally would not want to take the ranged route, but that's just me. I've heard of something called a spring attack build around here as a melee alternative to two-weapon fighting. As the name suggests, it's based around the spring attack feat, which (I think) allows you to move around both before and after you make an attack, and thus, can increase your life expectancy in melee. I don't particularly like this idea either, since the spring attack feat has a bunch of prerequisites, but it's your choice, really.
Tedly224 09-28-05, 01:05 AM	Yes, you can get sneak attack damage on ranged attacks and it's pretty simple to pull off. A monster (say a Troll) has a Fighter fighting on one side of it and another character (say a Druid who is Wildshaped) fighting on the other side of it. The Troll is Flanked. End of line. The Rogue doesn't have to be one of the people Flanking the target at all and can sneak attack away. Using melee attacks the Rogue can be on any side he feels like around the troll while stabbing away. Or optionally the Rogue can be using a bow, crossbow, or throwing something at the Troll and gain the sneak attack bonus damage as long as he's within 30 feet of the Flanked target. Likewise, if the target is NOT flanked but IS caught Flat Footed, such as from being surprised, all you need is the ranged attacks to come in from 30 feet or closer and they all Sneak Attack on their hits. Now, using ranged attacks on a foe enganged in melee is a heartbreaker. Firing on a foe fighting something else nets you an automatic -4 to your Attack to strike, even if the target is Flanked. To get around this you need both the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats. Point Blank Shot gives you a +1 to hit on any ranged attack you make on something within 30 feet (which is handy by itself) and is the prerequisite for Precise Shot. Precise Shot cancels out the shooting into melee penalty of -4, so you're good to go to use ranged combat to help support the melee members of your party. It's completely valid to initially skip two weapon fighting and weapon finesse at first and grab Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot right away, especially if you are a Human rogue and get both at level 1. The problem will be getting your party members to always help and flank things for you, although the pair of feats will help you do normal ranged damage on engaged things regardless. Remember, ranged attacks do NOT help in Flanking something. If a Warrior is facing off a Troll in a fight and you happen to be 30 feet directly behind the Troll and on the opposite side from the Warrior, you don't gain a Sneak Attack damage adjustment if the Troll knows you're around. It takes 2 Melee combatants on opposite sides of a foe to flank something - ranged attackers don't count. Since you asked about feats, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Spring Attack and Double Strike (from complete warrior) are all great for a rogue. Some players will make a good case for Iron Will to improve your will saves, as those are pretty common things to fend off in adventures and rogues don't get a great save there, and will probably have a crappy wisdom. Improved Feint and Flick of the Wrist are also good feats from complete adventurer and complete warrior, but read up on them both first to make sure they will work best for your character. Likewise, Spring Attack doesn't mesh well with Two Weapon Fighting usually, unless you have Double Strike to go with it. Good luck with the rogue, and don't make a sociopath or a kleptomaniac character that shorts the party on earned wealth. If you're caught even once, even Out of Character, the Cleric and his heals will no longer be your friend and the Warriors might just trip fall and stab your sleeping character during their watch at night. I've seen it happen.
spectralphoenix 09-28-05, 01:12 AM	I would recommend Two Weapon Fighting (TWF) and ALWAYS flank your opponent with the party's tank. Skills are important too, but consider where your likely to go. You won't have much use for Sleight of Hand or social skills in a dungeon crawl. I would definitely take Hide, Move Silently, Search, Open Lock, and Disable device.
Nom 09-28-05, 02:56 AM	Yes, you can get sneak attack damage on ranged attacks and it's pretty simple to pull off. A monster (say a Troll) has a Fighter fighting on one side of it and another character (say a Druid who is Wildshaped) fighting on the other side of it. The Troll is Flanked. End of line. The Rogue doesn't have to be one of the people Flanking the target at all and can sneak attack away. Using melee attacks the Rogue can be on any side he feels like around the troll while stabbing awayThis is totally incorrect. Sneak attack applies "... when the rogue flanks her target" (PH pg 50). And "flanked" isn't a state in D&D 3rd, it's a situational modifier. You gain a "flanking bonus" (ie you flank your target) when you make a melee attack and have an ally opposite you who threatens your target. The only way (core rules) to get sneak attack with a ranged weapon is to deny the target its Dex bonus to AC (flat footed, attack from hiding, attack from invisible, target stunned, ...). Enough of rules debates. I'm also not going to talk about "you need this feat / ability / item", and especially not feats from non-core (ie not PH or DMG) products. Instead, let's look at the principles of rogue-building... The rogue is one of the most flexible D&D classes, and can fill several roles: - skirmisher (ranged or melee) - skulker - locksmith - diplomat - scout You have enough skills and abilities to fill 2-3 of these roles at once, but will spread yourself too thin if you try for more than that. Let's examine them quickly. skirmisher: This is a combat role, and generally tries to exploit the rogue's high Dex (you do have high Dex, don't you?) and sneak attack ability. The ranged skirmisher is typically a skulker as well, sneak attacking from the shadows. If he can't hide, he settles for just shooting normally into melee. Even without sneak attack, rogues make pretty good archers, although they lack the full BAB and extra feats of a fighter or ranger. Speed is the melee skirmisher's friend. There are two divergent paths for the melee skirmisher: Spring Attack or Two-weapon Fighting. The Spring Attacker relies on skipping in, striking (with flanking), and skipping away before the enemy can retaliate. The two-weapon fighter needs to be braver and have a good sense of timing; he can deal a lot of damage if he gets to deliver a full attack with flanking, but is also pretty vulnerable if the foe gets a chance to counter-attack. In any case, your skill of choice is Tumble. Skirmishers of any breed often benefit from a couple of levels of ranger or fighter. skulker: The skulker specialises in not being seen. Hide and Move Silently are your skills of choice. It synergises well with skirmisher and scout. locksmith: No trap or lock can stop you. Maximise Open Lock and Disable Device. Search and Spot are also near essential. This is the traditional D&D "thief", but can work for a law abiding character (think Indiana Jones style "explorer") as well as a crook. diplomat: Should you so choose, the rogue can excel at social skills. Diplomacy, Bluff and Gather Information are the focus here, possibly with a healthy dose of Knowledge (local) and the like. Maximise Sense Motive so that you don't get a taste of your own medicine. The more nefarious diplomat should also consider Disguise and Forgery. A few levels in Bard can be a big boost, especially if you want to learn some languages. scout: Find it before it finds you! This catch-all category makes heavy use of Search, Spot and Listen, and generally ties into either skulking or locksmithing. The mobility-based skills (Climb, Jump, Swim, Ride, Use Rope, Escape Artist) can also be very handy. You'll notice that even this somewhat limited list has way more than 11 skills, which is about the most you can keep at maximum even under very favourable conditions (14 Int, human). Feats are even rarer. Thus, you'll need to pick 2 or 3 areas and focus on them. Avoid the temptation to put a few points in every skill you can; that just results in you being no better than anyone else at everything. The rogue offers enormous flexibility, but you have to sacrifice some of that flexibility and choose a few options to specialise in. Three important notes: (1) Is combat a primary goal? The feat trees for archery, Spring Attack or Two-Weapon Fighting all reward the expenditure of a lot of feats (and require it for the latter two). Either commit to being good in combat, or view it as something you'll do if the need arises. Don't choose to be a skill monkey and continually wish you were in the thick of melee - you'll just die quickly. (2) Consider what the other party members are doing. Rangers tend to be scouts. Bards tend to be diplomats. You get to choose your niche, so find it and exploit it. This is especially important for skill monkeys, as you're not going to be able to brag about your combat effectiveness (except to low-level wizards). Make sure you talk to the DM too - being a diplomat in a "kick in the door" dungeon crawl is probably a waste, as is being a locksmith in the wilderness. (3) Focus. I've said it before, but it's important. Many skills reward heavy skill point investment. Opposed skills (Hide / Spot, Listen / Move Silently, Bluff / Sense Motive, Use Rope / Escape Artist, ...) result in a competition as to who can get the biggest bonus, while skills like Tumble and Use Magic Device are only really valuable when you have a lot of ranks in them.
spoogemonkey 10-07-05, 05:19 PM	With a Rogue's hp.... I think the crossbow is better (light crossbow). Staying out of melee fighting is MUCH safer... Hide, move silently, sneak attack, hide again.... Put skill points in Use Magic Devise Take Improved Init.... you want to be hidden already when the arrows start whizzing... Take Point Blank Shot... and the Shooting into combat feat Skill points in Tumble can get you out of tight spots.
wonlee76 10-07-05, 05:56 PM	STATS: Depending on starting stats, I sometimes rank Int higher then Dex (Especially if the two highest stats are 16, 15 or 18, 17). Later on you can improve the odd numbered stat in dex to slowly get better. Int doesn't work retroactively for skill points so if the stats are that close, may as well take advantage of the skill points first, then get dex later. FEATS: Lots of ways to play a rogue in combat. Improved Initiative is a must have since it will increase your chances of getting sneak attack opportunities. Also it is recommended to sticking to one type of combat role due to lack of feats. If you try to do more then 1 role (Hit and Run + Archery), levels in fighter is recommended to get you some precious feats to pull off the combination. Archer (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot or Rapid Reload if you're going with crossbow). Hit and Run (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse) Hitter (TWF feats + Weapon Finesse) The "safest" fighting style would be archery followed by the hit and run tactic. Sticking it out for TWF fighting is one of the most dangerous tactics to take since if you don't kill the monster in the first round, you can expect to be whacked hard in retaliation. With the rogue HP and the Medium BAB, Rogues will not hit every single attack against a monster increasing the odds the monster will survive the attack. SKILLS: With the class skill list of a rogue, so many ways to play one. Choose a "style" you like and work with it. Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Disable Device, Tumble and Use Magical Device are probably the most standard rogue skills taken or kept at maximum. Search is a decent part time skill to keep up since you can "take 20" on the search check. So putting a few points in it every once in a while should be sufficient. Open Locks may not be worth too much since magic can be used to deal with that obstacle (Wand or Scroll of Knock + Use Magic Device can emulate Open Locks well enough for you). And with 8 + Int in skill points per level, you got room to play with other skills that might fit your character concept. If he's going to be a pick pocket, Sleight of Hand and Bluff are good skills. If he's going to be a charlatan/fast talker type of PC, Sense Motive, Diplomacy and Bluff are good skills to invest in.
DragonDeadite 10-07-05, 06:34 PM	Having just gotten my Rogue character killed, I suggest the Light Crossbow and take the Rapid Reload feat. That way when you get to level 8 you can actualy get two attacks in one round, and go with the Rapid Fire feat as well, the more you fire the better off you are. Also, keep in mind that you are more than likely going to be the scout for the party, so get Dash out of the... CAd?? or the CW??? it adds another 5 ft to your movement, and that can add up FAST!! My rogue ended up being able to cast Expiditious Retreat on himself (don't ask) and that saved his butt more than once!! Speed for a rogue is fairly key as it will let you move in and out of combat, using the sneak attack a bit more. Now, if you want a combat oriented rogue and like the sneak attack, then can I advise the Scout from the CAdventurer. The Skirmish ability is much easier than Sneak Attack, as you only have to move ten feat and you get the bonus damage, even on ranged within 30ft. It just advances slower, but it also gives bonuses to AC at later levels, all because you move ten feat, and if you use a bow it's basicaly free damage for nothing. Same Skill points, more HP and just a neat lil class all in all. Check it out if you get a chance! Oh, and as I commented on another thread, if you're playing a thief, GET A PARTNER!!! The more you steal and not tell the other characters, the easier it is for the DM to set you up to fall HARD!! My rogue got possessed, abused, raped and a few other things I'm not going to talk about. :D Let someone else pick up the neat things and give them to you, much easier that way!
prozacman 10-09-05, 07:04 AM	DO NOT STEAL FROM THE PARTY this is good advice, usually... however on rare occasions.. inner party theft falls under the "he had it coming" category. In these cases *good* RPers will put aside their ooc angst and deal with the fact that their character was being a jerk, and got what was coming to him/her. Reminds me of a story of a certain bard, who crossed a rogue and ended up w/ life in prison. But i digress: UMD is great.. but the single most useful item a rogue can own is not magical in nature.. **!** an Adamantine dagger is the most useful tool any rogue can have.. and if you can find someone to tatoo it onto you w/ the Item Image feat.. all the better. Bars? cut through them.. inpassable security? get a scroll of silence and cut through the wall... annoying bard? stab him.. best 3000 GP you'll ever spend stonebreaker acid is also EXTREMELY useful... and more cost effective than the adamantine if you can find it.. lockbreaker acid is nice to have around. a belt of many pockets is swell to keep all these acids from breaking and dissolving your leg (my rogue has a mundane "utility" belt designed to carry vials) Craft: Alchemy is invaluable if your DM will allow a non-caster to take it note: YAY alchemist fire subnote: :censored: alchemist fire! Um.. halflings and human are the best rogues IMHO human = extra skill points, halfling= +1 to hit and ac.. bonus to fear.. AND if you have a str of 10 or more... a bonus to thrown weapons is nice.... i'm big on daggers (sneak sneak sneak, stab guard A (surpise round) win init, throw dagger at guard B.. call in meatshields for guards C D E & F) do i need to mention boots and cloaks of elvenkind?? Oh.. smugglers boots = awesome General advice: IF your gonna steal from town, ALWAYS check out the prison FIRST! (this will, besides giving you time to plan your escape in advance, also give you an idea of how badly your DM will punish your theft.. if there is no prison.. and no holding cells at the guard station... look for people missing hands) Really.. dont steal from the party... and if you just cant help it... steal from the people who deserve it... and warn them first (IC) "you do that one more time :censored: you better :censored: learn to sleep with one :censored: eye open :censored:" <--- muttered under breath of course :angel: ^side note: the party my rogue is in could totally kill him easily.. but they're all afraid of him.. cause he's smart.. and tends to get people who cross him killed, or imprisoned for life (we had a short sprint with a few really bad RPers.. who despite the alignment on their sheet.. were playing evil.. as DM assistant.. i took it upon myself to get rid of them) Dont steal from mages! or clerics! If its shiny, take it. If its palm sized.. pocket it.. usually the party wont beat your sleight of hand.. and if they do, grin sheepishly and hand it off A lot of Rogues don't like having a paladin in the party.. i LOVE it.. there is one person in the party who is guarenteed NOT to rip you off.. even if he has a strong inclination that you might be ripping him off If it moves.. hide from it, if it doesn't see you... stab it If it talks.. question it.. or at least listen to it (unless its an object.. then be afraid) IF there is another rogue... make a deal... or at least be better at it (perhaps w/ a different specialty) PS For my money Imp. Sneak attack is THE BEST rogue feat d8 sneak atk damage dice? yes please.. but its not core so some DMs will disallow it... DO discuss the nature of good and evil with your DM BEFORE you start playing. Find out what degree of theft he finds to be evil.. if you can rob the wealthy merchant but not the poor guard... or if you can rob the church but not the priest.. or if ANY stealing is evil in his book I could probably come up with more.. but i have a feeling i've degenerated into rambling
Landman 10-09-05, 02:10 PM	Well, here is what ended up happening. Our DM gave us 13 levels to start with, form any of the following books: PHB, DMG, Path of Shadow, Magic or Sword, Complete Divine, COmplete Arcane and Complete adventurer. Here is what I ended up with: Human 6 levels in Rogue (PHB) 5 levels in Packrat (Path of Shadow) (+3 effective lvls in Rogue) 2 levels in Arsenalist (Path of Magic) That gives me: A bunch of sneak attack A bunch of cool rogue abilities 198 skill points! Lvl 0 and 1 spells A rat familiar Picking up items as free actions Uber-escape artistry Crazy packing and item carrying abilities Repeating crossbow proficiency (which I took with Improved Rapid shot. +2 crossbow. Sneak attack :) ) The ability to use gunpowder
JD 10-09-05, 04:10 PM	Picking up items as free actions Sorry to interrupt, but that sounds like a ridiculously useful ability. Among other things, you can switch between weapons in the blink of an eye (as long as you don't mind dropping them and picking them up). Why am I reminded of Ocelot juggling revolvers in MGS3? :D
Draco Strang 10-09-05, 08:54 PM	In combat situations, Sneak Attack is your best friend. Team up with another secondary combatant (ranger, monk, whatever) and just tag-team the hell out of the opposition. Each of you get a +2 to hit, you get to add in your SA, and you'll be setting up your buddy for any special tactics he can bring to the table. It's just a win-win situation. Outside of combat, figure out what niche you need/want to fill, and fill it. Do you want to be Locky McLockpicker? Bone up on Search, Spot, Disable Device and Open Lock. Do you want to be Rico Suave? Be sure to get your Cha-based skills up and running. You could fill the scout/stealth role, translator, or whatever the hell you want. Rogues get a sick amount of skill points. Be sure to have a half-decent Int. so you get more skill points, too. Everyone on this thread is giving good advice, for the most part. Just read through our suggestions and see what sparks your interest.
Light of Day 10-10-05, 05:31 PM	I see lots of advice on skills and feats, but not too much on weapon choices. I know you've said you've already made your character, but it won't hurt to post a little advise, will it? As a rogue, your main source of damage is sneak attack. This means sneak attack is generally a lot more important to you than, say, a high strength bonus and a two-handed weapon. That said, there are basically three options open to you as a rogue: 1: Bow or crossbow. Crossbows mean you don't have to worry about a strength penalty to damage. Yay! But crossbows fire slower than bows, so you'll get sneak attacks less often. Boo! You can fire a light or hand crossbow just as fast as a bow with the rapid reload feat, though. Yay! But that's possibly a waste of a feat that could be better used elsewhere. Boo! In general, if your strength is 10 or above, or even as low as 8 if you have something good to spend the feat on, get a crossbow. Otherwise, get a shortbow (or longbow if you're an elf). For feats, you'll want point blank shot and precise shot so you can shoot into a melee. Rapid shot is handy for getting extra attacks, and rapid bridges the speed gap between bows and crossbows. Weapon focus is also nice to get that extra boost on your attack rolls. The main advantage of ranged combat is you're at far less risk of the monsters bashing your brains out. The disadvantage is it's a lot harder to sneak attack as you can't flank. Hiding and catching your foes flat-footed generally only work once per combat, so you'll need help to get the sneak attack in. Getting your wizard to use spells such as daze and glitterdust at low levels, and the fantastic greater invisibility at higher levels can really help here, though. 2: Melee combat. Unless you want I shield for extra protection (I recommend masterwork bucklers, as they have no armor check penalty so you don't even need to be proficient with them), you're gonna want to dual-wield here. Sure, that big greatsword does huge damage in the barbarian's hands, but you just don't have the strength to pull it off yourself. Plus, double the weapons equals double the sneak attack! You'll also want to stick to light weapons so you can use weapon finesse. A rapier plus a light weapon may seem like a good idea, but if you're going to take the weapon focus feat then two of the same weapon is better because you only need to take it once. For feats, two weapon fighting is a no-brainer here, as are improved two-weapon fighting and greater two-weapon fighting. Weapon finesse is handy for boosting your attack rolls, as is weapon focus. Two-weapon defence gives a very handy boost to your armor class, as do dodge and mobility. Obviously, that's a lot of feats, so at low levels you'll need to choose between focusing your feats on offence, defence, or a bit of both. The main advantages of this route is you'll find sneak attacking a lot easier because you can flank. You'll also have more attacks per round that a bow-using rogue after you pick up improved two-weapon fighting. Unfortuantly, there's nothing to get between you and the monsters, so you'll be an easy target. Also, your attacks will be slightly less accurate, as you'll have to wait a level or two to pick up weapon finesse, and melee fighting has no equivalent to point blank shot. 3. Thrown weapons. Why do these deserve a catagory of their own instead of getting lumped in with bows and crossbows? Because unlike with the projectile weapons, you can dual-wield throwing weapons. Imagine, not only do you get extra attacks from wielding two weapons at once, but you can use the rapid shot feat on top of that! And to top it off, if you're feeling a little munchkinny you can throw in a level of monk and use shuriken. Two-weapon fighting + rapid shot + flurry of blows = a LOT of sneak attack, if you can catch your foe off-guard :plotting:. It all sounds too good to be true, and obviously it is. You'll have all the drawbacks of ranged combat anyway, plus a frightingly short range increment, you'll need LOADS of feats to carry it off (might be an idea to multiclass to fighter), and it'll cost you a small fortune in throwing weapons to boot (unlike arrows for your bow, throwing weapons cost a LOT to buy in bulk). It's a difficult build, but the damage you can deal with it is phenominal if you can pull it off, especially if you combine with complete warrior's Master Thrower prestige class. Good feats here would be quick draw, all the two-weapon fighting ones featured above, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, and far shot (unlike bows your range increment here is gonna be short enough to make it worth it). Like I said above, you have all the disadvantages of ranged combat and then some, and between two-weapon fighting and rapid shotting you'll be taking a big penalty on attack rolls (halflings and their racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons are a good choice here). However, this is a unique build that can throw out a LOT of hurt if you can accomplish it right. Ultimately, whatever you do is your choice. No one choice is any better than the others, and always remember the cardinal rule of DnD: It's a game, so HAVE FUN!!! :D
KismetRose 10-11-05, 04:39 PM	Although I agree that Dex and Int are important to a rogue, I wouldn't disregard Wisdom. There are some important class skill that are based on Wisdom, like Listen and Spot.