Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arameas 03-27-07, 07:04 PM	Ok I am pretty sure that this is wrong, but then again I might be. We have a new DM in our group and he has this rule that says that in a normal combat (IE both parties are aware of each other, no surprise round) that everyone is flat footed until they have acted. An example: Our party opens a big pair of double doors and behind them is a large Skelington. We attempt to sneak into the room but fail (dam those natural ones!) The skeli beats us on init and charges at us, and all of us end up being flat footed until the skeli has either bashed us or we have acted. Is this normal, because no other Dm (including myself) that I have played with has done this.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-27-07, 07:08 PM	No, that's only true if there's a suprise round. See, the funny thing about combat is that everyone is moving and acting during the same 6-second period of time. For that to work, if you were to do combat in real-time, you wouldn't have the monsters and players acting in turns so much as acting all at once. Keeping that in mind, since everyone is TECHNICALLY already moving, does it makes sense to treat them as flat-footed?
Merestil Haye 03-27-07, 07:13 PM	The basic rule.Flat-Footed At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.Quite frankly, based on what you say he appears to be doing it right. The encounter may start when the door is opened, but initiative was not rolled until the monster became aware of the party because the party decided to try and sneak past, leaving the monster unaware of their presence. From the moment hostilities commence (in this case with the DM calling for initiative) every creature in the combat is flat-footed until their turn in the initiative order is announced.
Tonil 03-27-07, 07:35 PM	Merestil Haye has it correct. The point of debate is really when you should have rolled initiative. Some DMs would roll initiative as soon as you saw the monster, others wait until an attack is begun. This is often a judgment call. By my reading you got a surprise round, and used it to try and sneak in. You might have rolled initiative right then. If you had attacked right away I would have given you surprise in your attack. The related question, which I do not know the answer to, is this: If you had rolled initiative in the suprise round, would that initiative roll continue until the next round; i.e., would you then not be flat-footed at the start of the first regular round? I think many DMs would say you are not flat-footed in the regular round if you rolled initiative in the surprise round. And if it seems strange to be flat-footed when you saw the monster first, imagine it this way: You think the monster does not see you, so you are not ready to defend yourself. He sees you, and got the jump on you because you were focussed on sneaking past, not defense.
Aeromus 03-27-07, 08:54 PM	Everyone is flat-footed, until their first initiative. Even during surprise rounds. Flat-Footed At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order) you are flat-footed. By this quote bold is mine, it can be seen that you are even flat footed, until the first round's initiative, excluding actions taken during the surprise round.
DarkRhystar 03-27-07, 09:41 PM	An example: Our party opens a big pair of double doors and behind them is a large Skelington. Strange that you saw it but it didn't see you (Hide checks?); still acceptable though. We attempt to sneak into the room but fail (dam those natural ones!) Both combatants are now aware of one another. Initiative should be rolled at this point. The skeli beats us on init and charges at us, and all of us end up being flat footed until the skeli has either bashed us or we have acted. Actually, you're flat-footed even after being attack until your initiative comes up. Remember, flat-footed doesn't mean you don't know the other guy is there (that's what surprise rounds are for); winning initiative just means he acted faster than you could react to. Is this normal, because no other Dm (including myself) that I have played with has done this. Them's the rules.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-27-07, 09:48 PM	Wow, really? Damn, I've been doing this wrong for YEARS... and I still insist that my explanation of events makes perfect sense!
_SIN_ 03-28-07, 03:21 AM	Wow, really? Damn, I've been doing this wrong for YEARS... and I still insist that my explanation of events makes perfect sense! It does make perfect sense. Prefectly wrong sense, but perfect all the same... :D
Arameas 03-28-07, 01:37 PM	Right ok.. I have to agree with Prator_the_Legendary, I have been playing it that you aren't flat footed since I have been playing, and this is my first DM who does it this way... Amazing what you can learn on the forums.
DarkRhystar 03-28-07, 03:18 PM	The problems with playing it that was is that it really shafts Sneak Attack-based characters and triple shafts Sudden Strike characters and Ranged Sneak Attack-based characters. The latter especially since they rely on the flatfooted condition/denied dex condition since they don't have the benefit of flanking to get their damage. Sometimes their first shot in a battle is their best. Easiest way to think about initiative is like one of those showdowns you see in old westerns. Two guys stand a distance apart staring at each other, someone screams "draw," and that's when initiative is rolled. The first guy wins initiative, draws his gun, and shoots the other guy. The other guy isn't on the defensive or offensive yet, he's still working on drawing his gun or aiming it.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-28-07, 04:11 PM	Ok I am pretty sure that this is wrong, but then again I might be. We have a new DM in our group and he has this rule that says that in a normal combat (IE both parties are aware of each other, no surprise round) that everyone is flat footed until they have acted. An example: Our party opens a big pair of double doors and behind them is a large Skelington. We attempt to sneak into the room but fail (dam those natural ones!) The skeli beats us on init and charges at us, and all of us end up being flat footed until the skeli has either bashed us or we have acted. Is this normal, because no other Dm (including myself) that I have played with has done this. The DM is correct. Until you act in combat, surprise round or not, you are flat-footed. What I don't understand is how one can be aware and ready enough at the start of combat to apply your DEX bonus to init but not aware and ready enough to use said DEX bonus to dodge an incoming attack. ;)
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-28-07, 04:15 PM	The problems with playing it that was is that it really shafts Sneak Attack-based characters and triple shafts Sudden Strike characters and Ranged Sneak Attack-based characters. No it doesn't, it rewards them. Provided, of course, that you have pumped up your perception skills and init bonuses. Any rogue worth his daggers should be able to get a surprise round to move into position and then get the init top-spot to lay the sneam-attack hurt while the enemy is still flat-footed.
Tonio 03-28-07, 04:31 PM	The DM is correct. Until you act in combat, surprise round or not, you are flat-footed. What I don't understand is how one can be aware and ready enough at the start of combat to apply your DEX bonus to init but not aware and ready enough to use said DEX bonus to dodge an incoming attack. ;) Well, before you've acted, you're still not fully "in combat mode", which explains why when flat-footed you don't get your DEX modifier to AC. DEX also lets you get to that point (where you act) faster, hence it modifies initiative. You're not "ready enough" to apply your DEX to init... that bonus determines how able you are to GET ready enough.
DarkRhystar 03-28-07, 04:35 PM	No it doesn't, it rewards them. Provided, of course, that you have pumped up your perception skills and init bonuses. Any rogue worth his daggers should be able to get a surprise round to move into position and then get the init top-spot to lay the sneam-attack hurt while the enemy is still flat-footed. I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying. If no one is flatfooted at the beginning of the battle, you don't get sneak attacks or sudden strikes when going first. That is why the aforementioned get hurt by this house rule.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-28-07, 05:03 PM	I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying. If no one is flatfooted at the beginning of the battle, you don't get sneak attacks or sudden strikes when going first. That is why the aforementioned get hurt by this house rule. You are correct, I did indeed misunderstand. I thought you were arguing that the RAW punsihed those PCs. Mea culpa. Nothing to see here. Move along…move along… ;)
Umag 04-01-07, 11:21 AM	Ok I am pretty sure that this is wrong, but then again I might be. We have a new DM in our group and he has this rule that says that in a normal combat (IE both parties are aware of each other, no surprise round) that everyone is flat footed until they have acted. An example: Our party opens a big pair of double doors and behind them is a large Skelington. We attempt to sneak into the room but fail (dam those natural ones!) The skeli beats us on init and charges at us, and all of us end up being flat footed until the skeli has either bashed us or we have acted. Is this normal, because no other Dm (including myself) that I have played with has done this. Well I have read all the posts to your question and I saw two things that were overlooked, First a surprise round ensues only if some but not all combatants are surprised, which is determined when the Dm calls for a spotcheck. Anyone failing the spotcheck (usually DC15) is surprised, those that make the spotcheck are not. those characters and only those characters roll initiative for the surprise round and may make 1 standard action during the surprise round. Even those that make the spotcheck are flatfooted during the surprise round until they take an action in the surprise round. The characters that fail the spot check are flatfooted for the entire surprise round, they then roll initiative the following round and are still considered flatfooted until until their action in the round. Best case scenario for a rogue: He makes his spot check and is not surprised, he rolls initiative and goes 1st in the surprise round, he is only 30 feet from the nearest enemy, This enables him to charge the nearest enemy granting him a +2 bonus to attack on an enemy who is flatfooted thus denying dex bonus to AC, granting the rogue sneak damage on a successful hit. If the enemy survives the attack, he is still flatfooted next round til he he takes an action, possibly giving the rogue a full round attacks worth of sneaks before he ever gets to act.
DarkRhystar 04-01-07, 01:17 PM	First a surprise round ensues only if some but not all combatants are surprised, which is determined when the Dm calls for a spotcheck. Anyone failing the spotcheck (usually DC15) is surprised, those that make the spotcheck are not. those characters and only those characters roll initiative for the surprise round and may make 1 standard action during the surprise round. There is no rule that mandates a DC 15 Spot check or any other before a surprise round. The DMG (Page 137) does say that "[The DM] may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks to see how aware the adventurers are of their opponents." It then provides a good example where a Spot check wouldn't matter but Listen solves the problem. This sounds like a nitpick but your post almost reads as if your DM calls for DC 15 Spot checks at the beginning of every battle for surprise rounds which would be a house rule.