Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darnet 12-08-03, 03:06 PM	Situation I was playing my rogue, and stuck in a room with NPC who wanted to kill me. A. We were 20ft apart and he turned his back to me to shut the door. B. My surprise round, as he turend to face towards the door I stuck a dart into his back. (sneak attack). C. Initiative was rolled, and I won. D. He was still facing away from me 180degrees when my turn came, I through another dart and "supposedly" it wasn't a sneak attack. Was or wasn't it a sneak attack?
Rhygent Qualell 12-08-03, 03:08 PM	It was -- he was denied his dex bonus, therefore it is a "sneak" attack.
Inigo Carmine 12-08-03, 03:46 PM	It is a sneak attack, but only because the opponent was denied his dex bonus to AC (because he was flat footed). in combat, you are never actually "behind" someone. Everyone faces 360 degrees all the time.
KShaver 12-08-03, 03:46 PM	Originally posted by Darnet C. Initiative was rolled, and I won. He would still be flat footed until his initiative came around.
Darnet 12-08-03, 03:55 PM	They argo he gets to "react" on the surprise round, even though he cant act and that is why I didn't get the sneak attack.
primemover003 12-08-03, 05:05 PM	He wanted to kill you eh? Well if you were both in the room and you weren't hiding behind anything, you could not possibly have gotten a Surprise Round. You were both aware of each other meaning you just roll initiative. Because you beat him in the initiative roll your first attack IS a sneak attack because the enemy had not yet acted in combat and is therefore flat-footed (loss of Dex bonus to AC). After that you'd need to feint in order to get anymore sneak attacks (if you are alone vs. the bad guy that is).
KShaver 12-08-03, 05:08 PM	Originally posted by Darnet They argo he gets to "react" on the surprise round, even though he cant act and that is why I didn't get the sneak attack. If it was truly a surprise round then you got 1 free partial action and then the two of you rolled initiative. If you acted in the full round before his initiative then he would still be flat footed while you got a full action. Rogues are very dangerous when they sneak up on you, particularly if they have improved intiative and multiple weapons or multiple attacks. Those are the standard rules of course, you DM could have decided the situation simply didn't warrant him being flat footed for another round, perhaps this is because he knew how much you hated him and was prepared to be attacked.
Unda Harvum 12-08-03, 05:15 PM	It's quite possible there shouldn't have been a surprise round. But as the DM ruled there was a surprise round, the other posters are correct - your opponent was flat-footed in the surprise round, and in the first regular round, when he hadn't yet had an opportunity to take any actions. See the wording in the parenthesis on page 137 in the 3.5 PHB: specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order.
Edymnion 12-09-03, 12:30 AM	Even if it isn't a surprise round, when combat starts, everybody is flatfooted until their initiative comes around. So the guy would be denied his dex bonus until he acted, and EVERY attack until he acted is a sneak attack. Yes, this means you could do two complete rounds of full attacks (potentially 4 base and 4 offhand with enough BAB and TWF feats) for 8 sneak attacks per round, for a potential 16 sneak attacks. Point that out to your DM and see how he likes a TWF 19th level Rogue potentially getting 160d6 points of sneak attack damage (10d6 sneak attack, 4 base attacks, 4 from maxed out TWF, 2 rounds of it) before the badguy even gets a chance to react. Rogues are supposed to be death on wheels when they get a surprise round and win init, mainly because of the fact they're that close and usually die or are completely incapacitated when the bad guy does HIS full attack option on the poor rogue.
Unda Harvum 12-09-03, 03:21 AM	Now I'm confused, Edymnion. How do you get 4 attacks from BAB and max out SA damage at the same time (a pure Rogue will at most get 3 attacks from BAB at 20th level). And perhaps more importantly, how do get two rounds with Full Attack before the opponent gets a chance to react?
KShaver 12-09-03, 09:25 AM	Originally posted by Unda Harvum Now I'm confused, Edymnion. How do you get 4 attacks from BAB and max out SA damage at the same time (a pure Rogue will at most get 3 attacks from BAB at 20th level). And perhaps more importantly, how do get two rounds with Full Attack before the opponent gets a chance to react? I have the same questions. A full rogue with maxed out two weapon skills will only have 7 attacks at most if you count in haste or a weapon of speed (unless a creature with multiple natural attacks, in which case it likely has an LA). Alteratively a multi classed rogue could have more attacks, but he would not have a full +10d6 sneak attack bonus. Secondly if attacking before your opponent rolls initiative you only get a surprise round, which is only a partial action. You should never get two full rounds on an opponent before they have a chance to react.
Twisted Puppy 12-09-03, 09:36 AM	Well, another case in which you would not get any sneak attacks would be if the NPC was a rogue of high enough level that he's never flat-footed - unless you have 4 more levels of rogue than he does. In that case, you would not even have been able to get SA damage on your surprise round.
Unda Harvum 12-09-03, 10:10 AM	Twisted Puppy, the four levels of rogue only applies to the flanking part of Uncanny Dodge. If you have Uncanny Dodge you are never denied Dex Bonus to AC when flat-footed, period.