Flying Diving Charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Flying Diving Charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tn320
03-24-05, 01:50 PM I have a character on a flying mount. According to the article rules of the game: On Movement, if you charge from a certain distance in the air you character does 2x damage. Now if my character use a lance would he then add another multplier to that charge for a total of x3 since the lance does double damage on the charge. Then adding the feat Spirited Charge the mulitplier should increase to x4. Please advise if the diving charge from the air would stack with the charge multiplier from the lance.

Assuming that the the dive multplier stacks with the lance multiper would the a critical hit look like this:

X3 multplier for critical hit with lance
another multplier for charging with the lance
another multplier for charging from the air
and a final multplier for spirited charge for a total of x6
TheChilliGod
03-24-05, 08:00 PM Hold up, correct me if I'm wrong (and believe me, I usually am) but I was under the impression that multipliers multiply previous multipliers, not add to them. What I mean is, two x2 multipliers would mean x4 altogether.
This means that...
x3 crit, x2 lance, x2 feat, x2 flying charge
3x2x2x2=24 times more damage!?!

Would any of these modifiers cancel each other out, by any chance? I mean, all the x2 modifiers come from charging with something, so would it?
:twocents:
tn320
03-24-05, 08:34 PM That is incorrect. When you add the multipliers your start with he highest and then every other condition that would add a multiplier would increase that multiplier by one.
fallabel
03-24-05, 09:45 PM That may be how DnD rules work, but mathmatically, they should multiply each other.
tn320
03-26-05, 09:00 AM Does anyone else have any insight in to this or does any know of another forum I should post this under that might be more appropriate.

Thanks
gavalicks
03-26-05, 11:25 AM I ussually play flyers, the way we resolved is
first to do a dive(charge) while flying you need to move at least 30feet and must have at least a 10' drop during that movement. Otherwise it acts just like a charge.

Now as for multipler you first do your damage as a charge then multiply your total damage by 2. Cause dive says to it deal double damage not multiply damage by two.

---
Rules of the game
Charge

Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed).

If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage.
---

Mistake in your reading
You read spirited charge wrong it says you may do double damage with a melee or triple with a lance. Not x3 cause of lance increase +X1 cause of spirit charge. It already increased from x2 to x3 by spirited charge you don't add it twice.
---

Answers with option and explination.

So lets say you dive, I am reading your logic right.
Option 1
First you do any critical, then triple it cause of lance with spirited charge, Then you double it with cause of dive + add any bonus that does not get stacked with (sneak attack, favored enemy ect..)

ex.
Damage dealt with mundane lance no strength bonus (1d8 average roll 4)
Add critical 4 x 3= 12
Add Charge with lance 12 x 3 = 36
add Dive = 36 x 2 = 72
add misc bonus (SA, Fire, ect...) 72 + 0= 72

---
However a dive attack is a charge attack so you only get to add your lance with spirited charge.

Option 2
First you do any critical, then triple it cause of lance with spirited charge+ add any bonus that does not get stacked with (sneak attack, favored enemy ect..)

ex.
Damage dealt with mundane lance no strength bonus (1d8 average roll 4)
Add critical 4 x 3= 12
Add Charge with lance 12 x 3 = 36
add misc bonus (SA, Fire, ect...) 36 + 0= 36

You don't double your triple damage from spirited charge. Becasue dive is a charge and you can't stack charge with charge. Even if one is specificly designed for flyers.
---

However if your Dm says you do stack I would make them stack like this so you get the bonus of dive by increasing your charage with lance by 1.

option 3
ex.
Damage dealt with mundane lance no strength bonus (1d8 average roll 4)
Add critical 4 x 3= 12
Add Charge with lance 12 x 4 = 48
add misc bonus (SA, Fire, ect...) 48 + 0= 48

This is a DM's call. Although I would and I believe most DM's would go with the option 3 only because it gives you the benifit of dive and charge that does not produce a power house.

The actual ruling for the DND book is option 2 because a dive is a charge so basicly you gain the benifit of spirited charge or dive but not both.
---

Side note:
Beside the manuverbility for a dive is the same as charge straight line and it is very difficult to accomplish since it can be easly defeated by a person with reach 15 or greater and trip, stunning fist, or sunder, since he can waste an AOO to trip or stun a flyer and knock you down in which case not only do you lose your attack for the round, but also recieve damage from the fall or sunder your weapon in which case you do no damage and provoke another attack of opportunity by flying thorugh his threat.

Boy do I talk alot. or write alot rather.
Anthus_Longblade
03-26-05, 03:32 PM That may be how DnD rules work, but mathmatically, they should multiply each other.

Why? The multiplier includes the base damage, so a crit multiplier of x3 is really x1 + x2. When adding more multipliers, you include the extra damage, not the base damage. The base damage only happens once, which makes sense.

By the rules, the formula for damage looks like this:
base damage + extra damage + extra damage = total damage

example:
For an attack with a lance...h
1d8(base)+1d8(from charge)+2d8(from crit)=4d8

For the charge multiplier to multiply the crit multiplier (that's a mouthful!) You'd have to deal the crit damage before you dealt the charge damage, or vice versa.

Basically this is a repeat of the section in the back of the PH.

Think of it this way. I have an apple. This apple represents the base damage. I multiply it by two. This represents the charge multiplier. I now have two apples. I want to add a crit multiplier, so I take the same one apple and multiply it by three. I now have a grand total of four apples. The crit modifier multiplies the base damage only, not the extra charge damage.

I'd like to see the reason why "mathmatically" these multipliers should stack in the first place.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tn320 03-24-05, 01:50 PM	I have a character on a flying mount. According to the article rules of the game: On Movement, if you charge from a certain distance in the air you character does 2x damage. Now if my character use a lance would he then add another multplier to that charge for a total of x3 since the lance does double damage on the charge. Then adding the feat Spirited Charge the mulitplier should increase to x4. Please advise if the diving charge from the air would stack with the charge multiplier from the lance. Assuming that the the dive multplier stacks with the lance multiper would the a critical hit look like this: X3 multplier for critical hit with lance another multplier for charging with the lance another multplier for charging from the air and a final multplier for spirited charge for a total of x6
TheChilliGod 03-24-05, 08:00 PM	Hold up, correct me if I'm wrong (and believe me, I usually am) but I was under the impression that multipliers multiply previous multipliers, not add to them. What I mean is, two x2 multipliers would mean x4 altogether. This means that... x3 crit, x2 lance, x2 feat, x2 flying charge 3x2x2x2=24 times more damage!?! Would any of these modifiers cancel each other out, by any chance? I mean, all the x2 modifiers come from charging with something, so would it? :twocents:
tn320 03-24-05, 08:34 PM	That is incorrect. When you add the multipliers your start with he highest and then every other condition that would add a multiplier would increase that multiplier by one.
fallabel 03-24-05, 09:45 PM	That may be how DnD rules work, but mathmatically, they should multiply each other.
tn320 03-26-05, 09:00 AM	Does anyone else have any insight in to this or does any know of another forum I should post this under that might be more appropriate. Thanks
gavalicks 03-26-05, 11:25 AM	I ussually play flyers, the way we resolved is first to do a dive(charge) while flying you need to move at least 30feet and must have at least a 10' drop during that movement. Otherwise it acts just like a charge. Now as for multipler you first do your damage as a charge then multiply your total damage by 2. Cause dive says to it deal double damage not multiply damage by two. --- Rules of the game Charge Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed). If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage. --- Mistake in your reading You read spirited charge wrong it says you may do double damage with a melee or triple with a lance. Not x3 cause of lance increase +X1 cause of spirit charge. It already increased from x2 to x3 by spirited charge you don't add it twice. --- Answers with option and explination. So lets say you dive, I am reading your logic right. Option 1 First you do any critical, then triple it cause of lance with spirited charge, Then you double it with cause of dive + add any bonus that does not get stacked with (sneak attack, favored enemy ect..) ex. Damage dealt with mundane lance no strength bonus (1d8 average roll 4) Add critical 4 x 3= 12 Add Charge with lance 12 x 3 = 36 add Dive = 36 x 2 = 72 add misc bonus (SA, Fire, ect...) 72 + 0= 72 --- However a dive attack is a charge attack so you only get to add your lance with spirited charge. Option 2 First you do any critical, then triple it cause of lance with spirited charge+ add any bonus that does not get stacked with (sneak attack, favored enemy ect..) ex. Damage dealt with mundane lance no strength bonus (1d8 average roll 4) Add critical 4 x 3= 12 Add Charge with lance 12 x 3 = 36 add misc bonus (SA, Fire, ect...) 36 + 0= 36 You don't double your triple damage from spirited charge. Becasue dive is a charge and you can't stack charge with charge. Even if one is specificly designed for flyers. --- However if your Dm says you do stack I would make them stack like this so you get the bonus of dive by increasing your charage with lance by 1. option 3 ex. Damage dealt with mundane lance no strength bonus (1d8 average roll 4) Add critical 4 x 3= 12 Add Charge with lance 12 x 4 = 48 add misc bonus (SA, Fire, ect...) 48 + 0= 48 This is a DM's call. Although I would and I believe most DM's would go with the option 3 only because it gives you the benifit of dive and charge that does not produce a power house. The actual ruling for the DND book is option 2 because a dive is a charge so basicly you gain the benifit of spirited charge or dive but not both. --- Side note: Beside the manuverbility for a dive is the same as charge straight line and it is very difficult to accomplish since it can be easly defeated by a person with reach 15 or greater and trip, stunning fist, or sunder, since he can waste an AOO to trip or stun a flyer and knock you down in which case not only do you lose your attack for the round, but also recieve damage from the fall or sunder your weapon in which case you do no damage and provoke another attack of opportunity by flying thorugh his threat. Boy do I talk alot. or write alot rather.
Anthus_Longblade 03-26-05, 03:32 PM	That may be how DnD rules work, but mathmatically, they should multiply each other. Why? The multiplier includes the base damage, so a crit multiplier of x3 is really x1 + x2. When adding more multipliers, you include the extra damage, not the base damage. The base damage only happens once, which makes sense. By the rules, the formula for damage looks like this: base damage + extra damage + extra damage = total damage example: For an attack with a lance...h 1d8(base)+1d8(from charge)+2d8(from crit)=4d8 For the charge multiplier to multiply the crit multiplier (that's a mouthful!) You'd have to deal the crit damage before you dealt the charge damage, or vice versa. Basically this is a repeat of the section in the back of the PH. Think of it this way. I have an apple. This apple represents the base damage. I multiply it by two. This represents the charge multiplier. I now have two apples. I want to add a crit multiplier, so I take the same one apple and multiply it by three. I now have a grand total of four apples. The crit modifier multiplies the base damage only, not the extra charge damage. I'd like to see the reason why "mathmatically" these multipliers should stack in the first place.