Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BloodGod 12-20-04, 12:53 PM	What do I do, outfit my followers the way I want them to or outfit myself? See, I've got loot sitting around, and I could better mine own weapons and armor, or, I could set up all my followers with breastplates and sheilds and so on and so on, rather than having a rag tag army. Then again, it's an orcish horde. Should I just let them be their misfit selves of a horde or what? -BG
TelinArtho 12-20-04, 01:14 PM	I don't have much to offer, but the way I am thinking about it for my own group (when my character gets one...) is like this: 1. I hire/gather a group of relatively inexperienced people. I train them and equip them with the basics for foot soldiers (leather, sm. shield, sword, mace, dagger, and polearm of choice (probably glaive)). 2. After they've proven themselves, upgrade armor to medium (probably either scale, chainmail or breastplate - depending on my bankroll). 3. After they've proven themselves more, upgrade to full plate and masterwork items. Of course, I'm expecting to work with a relatively small set of people (10-30 maybe), so my money restrictions may not be as much of a factor. This also assumes that there are other unit types (as these are just my foot soldiers, I also plan on having a small unit of cavalry and a small unit of specials (spellcasters and siege weapons...) In general, I would choose to upgrade their equipment only after they've proven themselves in battle.
Board_Rider 12-20-04, 02:06 PM	Actually TelinArtho you should link him to your previous thread where you detailed your fututre army. That was laid out pretty well and may give BloodGod a start.
TelinArtho 12-20-04, 03:48 PM	Well, I didn't want to be so presumptuous (plus I'm still new so "advanced" things like posting links still elude me... but I'll try...): Here goes: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=341370 I feel bad for anyone wanting to slosh through my thought process there - because I'm so long-winded and while the content is solid - the mechanics are a little complex some days...
Lord Sinep 12-20-04, 04:25 PM	> I'd say let an Orc horde be an Orc horde, don't equip them better unless you want some elite Orcish bodyguard or something. Think story. Personally i prefer 2-4 followers for a special unit and would give them the appropriate gear. Bodyguards, Dragonslayers, Assassins, Wolf pack(RNG), etc.
CzarGarrett 12-21-04, 08:36 AM	I'd for for the 'elite' followers to get better stuff. If the others want better stuff, they have to earn it first.
TelinArtho 12-21-04, 11:45 AM	I feel that I've been remiss in responding to the original poster's questions: "What do I do, outfit my followers the way I want them to or outfit myself?" This is a tough question to answer - because, with a limited bankroll - you have to make sacrifices. Presumably, training and hiring new followers will be more expensive than a few heal potions for yourself - so it would seem reasonable to put the bulk of the improvements you make (through spending cash) into your personal army. That being said, if you continue to do so, your power level would shrink slightly because your equipment for your character is not up-to-snuff with the equipment of your fellow compatriots. This will have to do more with what you expect to do battle with than what you want to do. For instance (and this is the example I was working with in my thread), take two scenarios - you and your army versus either a) a hill giant and his merry band of ogres or b) a hill giant leader (with class levels presumably) and his tribe of hill giants. In situation A - the relative equipment of your army needs to be good enough that the average soldier can take more than one attack per round and that the average chance to hit the soldier will be 50% or less (above that or if your soldiers can't take more than one hit - you'll find yourself in a pyrrhic battle...). Moreover, your soldiers need to be able to take out a single opponent in about 3-4 attacks or better. In the case of ogres, with an AC of 15 and average HP at 26 - they would need a bonus to attack around +4 and an average damage around 13. As the bonus to hit gets higher, the avg. damage can decrease; likewise as the AC of the soldier gets higher, the less damage they need to do. In my opinion +4 hit with an avg. damage of 13 is possible pretty much only with a mounted knight (2nd lvl, heavy lance and +2 str bonus (2d8+4 = 9+4 = 13) and with spirited charge - 3d8+6 (17.5). 2nd lvl with a con of 12 - the avg. HP of the knights would be (10+5.5+2) 17.5 - the average damage of a hit from the ogre would be only 14 - which is clearly low. In situation B - the scenario is much worse. First, the giants have 2 attacks, a higher AC and a better average damage on a hit. Now the soldiers need an AC around 22 and HPs at 40+ to make it reasonable for survival; also they need to do much more damage - spirited charge followed by multiple significant damage attacks to take down the giant with average HP around 102. This means magical equipment (Full Plate +1, Lg. Shield +1, Masterwork Lance, Ring of Prot. +1, Amulet of Nat. Armor +1, etc). At this point, things become cost prohibitive as the number of soldiers increases. In addition, you need to be able to take on the leader single-handedly - which might be difficult depending on your relative power level and the leader's. So if you foresee your army assualting giants and such, your equipment will need to be proportionally better than if they were just taking care of a human army or a goblin army. Gauge your army's needs according to what you expect them to take care of on their own - gauge your own needs according to what you expect to take care of on your own. If you can find a balance between these two things - then you've found that magic spot I believe.
BloodGod 12-21-04, 12:40 PM	Thanks guys for all the help so far. My character's pretty beefed up as is, but is still falling a little short (or so it seems to me) behind the rest of the group. We've got two armor/weapon smiths in the group, but there's no way they could make enough armor or weapons for my army (numbering 700+). So, I think I'll end up outfitting my army. Our group may soon enough be facing down a Frost Giant tribe, a family of White Dragons, and an entire nation, so preparing to be besieged may not be such a bad idea. -BG
TelinArtho 12-21-04, 02:01 PM	If you don't mind - can you include the specifics of your army? The reason I ask is I think that your army will be in dire straights in the first two cases (giant tribe and family of dragons) but might be suited perfectly for the "entire nation." This goes back to my thoughts in my previous post. Chance of victory is a function of the soldiers' AC, hp, + to hit, Avg Dmg vs opponents AC, hp, + to hit, Avg Dmg. At some point the numbers come into play - but it is not linear (if you increase the opponents' number by 1 and they are more powerful than your avg. trooper - then you need 1*x extra soldiers - but if you add 2, you need 4*x extra soldiers - stuff like that. My own army is on hold at the moment - but I still dream...
BloodGod 12-21-04, 04:21 PM	The DM has my list of exact followers, or I lost it. But, here's a rough version of it. 1st: 500 orcs. 240 hobgoblins. 2nd:30 bugbears. 30 goatfolk. 10 orcs (1st fighter). 4 hobgoblins. (1st ranger) 3rd: 4 hobgoblins (2nd ranger). 33 ogres 4th: 18 ogres (1st barbarian). 1 hobgoblin (3rd ranger) 5th: 10 trolls. 6th: 5 wyverns. 7th: 3 Hill Giants 8th: 2 Ogre magi 9th: (It was either a SkullCrusher Ogre or an Ogre Magi with ranks in Fighter) Plus 4 Ballistas. Sorry about everything being so iffy. And the various Hobgobs with levels is just to represent a little hierarchy in the Hobgoblin ranks. -BG
TelinArtho 12-22-04, 10:36 AM	Let me just say - WOW! Every once in a while, someone gets an army like that and makes my character's dream come to shame. He dreams of leading an army - but I think that dream is still limited to 100 or so people - and they would mostly be composed of regular humans... That's a fantastic army - and I think the frost giant tribe will be an interesting fight (depends on just how many there are). I'm working up some numbers on people in my army - I've even got a calculator for it. I'll plug in some numbers and see what falls... The dragon family of course I think is still beyond the army - but that just because your capabilities against flying opponents (especially ones with high SR and saves) are minimal. /d
CzarGarrett 12-22-04, 10:38 AM	Spend money to outfit the Ogre Magi and Skullcrusher/Fighting Ogre Magi, the Hill Giants, the Hobgoblin rangers, and the Trolls with good stuff. Most of them are large so it will be somewhat expensive, but a Troll with a Ring of Fire Resistance is brutal. These are your Elite guys, treat them as such. The regular Ogres, Goatfolk, Bugbears, and 1st Level Fighter Orcs should have either good armor or good weaponry, with moderate of the other. These seem to be the Lieutenants of your army. They should have some advantage. The rest of the 1000 or so Orcs and Hobgoblins should have standard fare- Leather Armor, Spear or Axe, some with Short bows. Nothing spectacular.
TelinArtho 12-22-04, 11:40 AM	Okay - this would be assuming you go up against the Frost Giant tribe: 1. 500 Orcs (Greataxe, Scale Mail, S 15 D 10 C 11; hp 4.5) vs. AC 21 would do 1.568 damage per attack (not per hit, but per attack - this takes into account misses and criticals). All 500 would do about 783.8 damage/round. 2. 240 Hobgoblins (Long Sword, Studded Leather, Sm. Shield, S 11 D 13 C 13; hp 5.5) vs AC 21 would do 0.236 damage per attack - or 56.7 damage/round. 3. 30 Bugbears (Morningstar, Leather, Sm. Shield, (+3 nat AC); S 15 D 12 C 13; hp 16.5) vs AC 21 would do 1.365 damage per attack - or 41 damage/round 4. 10 1st lvl Orc Fighters (Greataxe, Breastplate, WF-Greataxe, S 15 D 12 C 14; hp 12) vs AC 21 would do 2.09 damage per attack - or 20.9 damage/round. 5. 4 1st lvl Ranger Hobgoblins (Long Sword, Short Sword, Studded Leather, Dodge, S 13 D 15 C 14; hp 12) vs AC 21 would do 0.473 damage per attack (0.289 from Long Sword, 0.184 from Short Sword) - or 1.9 damage/round 6. 4 2nd lvl Ranger Hobgoblins (MW Long Sword, MW Short Sword, Chain Shirt, Dodge, S 13 D 15 C 14; hp 19.5) vs AC 21 would do 1.1 damage per attack (0.605 from Long Sword, 0.495 from Short Sword) - or 4.4 damage/round. 7. 33 Ogres (Greatclub, Hide, (+5 nat, -1 size), S 21 D 8 C 15; hp 26) vs AC 21 would do 5.88 damage/attack or 194 damage/round. 8. 18 1st lvl Barbarian Ogres (Greatclub, Chain shirt, (+5 nat, -1 size), S 23 D 8 C 17; hp 45) vs AC 21 would do 8.4 damage/attack or 151.2 damage/round. 9. 1 3rd lvl Ranger Hobgoblin (Long Sword +1, Short Sword +1, Chain Shirt +1, Dodge, Mobility; S 13 D 15 C 14; hp 27) vs AC 21 would do 1.073 damage/attack with the long sword and 0.743 damage/attack with the short sword. 10. 10 Trolls (2 claws, 1 bite, (-1 size, +7 nat), S 23 D 14 C 23; hp 63) vs AC 21 would do 4.489/claw/attack and 1.365/bite/attack and 3.36/attack from successful rends. Each troll does 13.7 damage/round and all trolls do 137 damage/round. 11. 5 Wyverns (Sting, Bite, 2 Wings, (-2 size, +8 nat), S 19 D 12 C 15; hp 59.5) vs AC 21 would do 3.544 damage with the sting (plus poison), 2.31 damage with the bite, and 1.365 damage with each wing. Total damage for one wyvern is 8.584 damage/round and for all wyverns is 42.9. 12. 3 Hill Giants (Greatclub, Hide, (-1 size, +9 nat), S 25 D 8 C 19; hp 102) vs AC 21 would do 14.28 damage on its first attack and 9.818 damage on its second attack. Hill Giants can cleave as well (which is not taken into account here - as the scenario is against Frost Giants - cleave should be minimal). They do a total of 72.29 damage/round. 13. 2 Ogre Magi (Huge Greatsword, Chain Shirt, (-1 size, +5 nat), S 21 D 10 C 17; hp 37.5) vs AC 21 would do 6.16 damage/attack and 12.32 damage/round. Obviously the ogre mage has greater flexibility with spells - but this was to examine melee effectiveness. 14, Without knowing the stats on the Ogre Magi with levels (or what a skull crusher ogre is) or the goatfolk (which I presume are probably somewhere between the bugbear and hobgoblin) I can't draw up the stats for them. All of this works out to be 1520 damage/round. Assuming regular frost giants - the army would be able to take out 10-12 frost giants/round if the army didn't lose strength. Frost giants are difficult to count because of their great to-hits (they wouldn't likely use power attack on the orcs - the orcs die too easily) and great cleave - they could wade through large numbers of the smaller creatures pretty easily - especially with a reach of 10ft. Each frost giant would be able to do 22.99 damage on its first attack vs AC 20 (which most of the units have less than or equal to this) and 16.94 damage on its second attack vs AC 20. Provided that the giants kept the army in front of them, it is not unreasonable to believe they'd be able to take out 6 creatures with 15 hp or less per round. If the orcs swarm around them - the numbers go up quite a bit (the giant takes up four squares - there are 12 adjacent 5' squares and 20 at 10'. Judging from this, I'd suspect that your army would become ineffectual once the opposing force approaches 100 units. Also, note that this does not take into account ranged weapons (your ballista don't add much, but other ranged weapons might), magic (on either side) or special tactics (thrown boulders to take out swaths of orcs for instance...). (I again apply my template: Long Winded - to this post...)
BloodGod 12-23-04, 12:00 AM	Actually, things have turned out better than I thought. Because, it seems now that I've got enough to outfit completely my current army, and then outfit myself with some spiffy items. Also, this shalln't be the problem in the future. As I'll have to pay minimal fees for magic items since another fight in the group is amassing his own army, and will have an artificer working on items for himself and me (him and I recently formed a pact). And, he's gathering more Warforged and Dwarves. This adds up to a crap-load of smithies. He's willing to have his people make armor for my people. We've got a weird relationship. I back him up in whatever he does, while he supplies me and my troopers. Weird. I guess. Anyway. Bugbears are rockin' Half Plate and Greatswords. Imagine a SkullCrusher Ogre a step above your average ogre. Then 5 ranks of fighter and mad feats. Goatfolk are pretty much like Bugbears. 600 Orcs in BreastPlates and Heavy Steel Sheilds. 140 HobGobs with bows. 9 Trolls. 17 Ogre Barbs. 30 Ogres. I agree that I am ill-suited for facing off against the dragons. I plan to work on that. Now, going back to the stuff I said earlier. I won't have to face down all these giants and dragons and whatnot on my own. I'll have my Warforged friend, with his personally army numbering little over 300. He'll possibly have access to cannons. Yay. There will also be our group's cleric, who has a little over 100 followers of elves and humans. The group's cleric has crap spells for combat. But, she provides the generals (ie me, mainly) with healing. And lots of it. Our rogue is useless. Seriously. Our Sorcerer is turning into a Fire Elemental and loves his fire-based spells. Fireball is his friend. Which is good for the Frost Giants. And my cohort is a cleric of Gruumsh, who takes careful selection of combat spells. Including EarthShaker, in case of beseigment. Thought I'd update you guys on that stuff. -BG
TelinArtho 12-23-04, 09:28 AM	Well obviously things would fare better with better equipment and better numbers - though until the average AC gets above 21 - you won't see any benefit against the frost giants (or at least much benefit - I see them using great cleave with their first attack to great advantage against you). By the way - I would strongly advise you to get a better ranged contingent in your army - preferably with spells. This will help immensely against the giants and, more importantly, against the dragons. As it is 140 hobgoblins won't even scratch the surface - whether with bows or with standard fare. Good luck with your conquests... /d