Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mhutchins 07-09-07, 07:51 PM	Sorry, I just don't know what to post as a title. Basically, we are running a campaign, and have gone from level 1 to 3, having done a few adventures. Today things fell apart, and I litterally was so infuriated that I had to physically leave the house. Basically one of our players was unhappy with the class he had chosen and wished to change it entirely. His complaint was with the cleric class not having enough damage spells. Coincidentally, he had just done something completely wrong in the eyes of his church, and was facing punishment. We tried to reassure him that their strength lies elsewhere, but he refused to hear it and to keep up the character dispite the fact that he was in trouble; Clausality. The DM decided to let him simply let his other character disappear and made a fighter. Another player, in response, asked since the other player was given the chance, could he mess around with his clerical domains and change them around. The DM agreed. After changing them around, he still wasn't happy, and decided to remake the entire character into a druid. The DM agreed. I then asked about the rest of us, who had wanted small things changed in our characters. The DM denied us the oppurtunity. He based it on the fact that they weren't happy (granted the rest of us were unhappy with a few things, but we would grin and bear it.) and that it would make things run smoother. The FORMER cleric player also tried to argue that it would make the party 'stronger'. Am I out of line for asking for a balance here? What's good for the goose is good for the gander? I am ticked off, mainly because of my sense of what's fair and what's unfair. And this ain't fair. Any advice or anything?
Salla 07-09-07, 07:52 PM	What your group needs is the PHB2 Retraining rules. But yes, if the DM gives some people a rewrite, he should give EVERYBODY a rewrite.
Magnus029 07-09-07, 09:23 PM	As a DM I would basically sit down with the party as a whole and find out WTF is going on. I agree if he offers one person to make changes the rest of the group should be allowed as well.
Mock26 07-09-07, 09:28 PM	Buy some cheese for the two players who complained. Tell them it goes well with their whine.
Caelic 07-09-07, 09:54 PM	There's practical reason for this, apart from simple fairness. If the group was reasonably well-balanced, and two players drastically change their characters, it may well be that changes are in order in the rest of the party to keep things balanced. Suddenly having two clerics become non-clerics is a significant hit to the party's recuperative capabilities; it may be that another player will want to take up the slack.
Fatalis_902 07-09-07, 10:35 PM	As Salla mentioned, the PHB2 retraining rules would be very useful here. And as you say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." Or at least it should be. If the DM is willing to let people who have gripes about their characters make drastic changes out of the blue like that, he should be willing to let you make small changes that will make you happier. If he isn't, because you are percieved as being willing to "grin and bear it", then change his perception. Make it seem like these are serious issues you have with the character, and he should be willing to let you make the changes. Afterall, it's for the good of the game, right? And if he still won't let you make the changes, then he's playing favorites, and you should call him on it.
DarkNick 07-09-07, 11:13 PM	Depends. Sounds to me like you over reacted. If it was small then who cares? What small things did you and the other players want changed about your characters?
pmurray@bigpond.com 07-10-07, 04:27 AM	Tough call for the DM. I have decided, if I ever DM or run a campaign, to insitute a rule: "Any player may kill off a character and run a new one at any time. However, that character will have the usual penalty for resurrection. It will start one level lower and with half the experience needed to level up." I'd say to the DM: look, D&D is not about the integrity of your campaign. It's about a group of friends (or acquaintances, at least), having fun on a Friday night. For the gods'es sake - let 'em make their new characters. I'd say to the player's - the game is not about "winning". You don't have to do more damage and kill more monsters than everyone else. Having said that, problem 1 is that this player is not experienced and doesn't know what to do with a spellcaster. Problem 2 is that spellcasters are not a lot of fun at low levels. A way to address this is with items. (have the DM) Give the character a couple of scrolls as treasure, or simply as supplies from his church. Give him a wand of cure mod so he doesnt have to use all his slots to play healbot. Pearls of Power are also gratefully received - let's you be a bit more daring with daily spell picks.
kelvinaw273 07-10-07, 09:37 AM	I'm guessing that you have a lot of new players ... well, my advice is this: never treat your first campaign too seriously. Everybody will make mistakes, people will discover that what they have isn't quite what they want, the grass is always greener in the next field etc. Yes, your DM has made some errors. I for one do not like the retraining rules, they are just an excuse to pander to optimizing your character for new levels in my view, and hardly essential to the game or even vaguely realistic (yeah, I know it's fantasy and D&D, and doesn't have to be real, but I like my choices to mean something). But basically, at the end of a first campaign you normally set aside with nostalgia the character you have used for this game and will take up the character who you now know you truly WANT to play! (and trust me, 50% of the time you will change your mind about them, too). When you are all new to the game, I suggest that you each take a turn at DMing, each running a separate campaign (usually just a module long). By the end of everyone taking their turn, you will know the best DMs and what you want to play. Then you can start it in earnest.
DarkflameX 07-10-07, 11:47 AM	i saw stop complaining and play the damn game. thats what separates good players and annoying players. even if things are not fair, big deal, deal with it and play. there is no reason to be mad about this. it IS a game and thats it. obey the DM and what he has to say.
Phrennzy 07-10-07, 01:03 PM	I've been playing for a long time. Mostly - like 95% of the time - I'm the DM. We've always played with the rule of "one level lower" for any new characters. With this new campaign, I am a player. I made a half-orc barbarian. It was fun, but overshadowed the monk, and was not much fun to roleplay. So I asked the DM - a new DM - about making a Sorcerer and just swapping out characters when we got back to town. I expected him to be one level lower. The DM said I could be the same level as everyone else because he thought the 'one level lower' rule was lame. This has made me reconsider why we play. Its for fun. If someone isn't happy with their character, or their character dies, why come in at a lower level? Why a penalty? Granted, I could see instituting a penalty if someone is constantly wanting to change characters, but otherwise, why sweat it? D&D isn't Monopoly - there is no 'winner', no 'loser'. But you can't let one guy change and not another. That isn't right. The DM needs to sit down with everyone and discuss character changes so everyone is happy. As was said earlier, don't sweat it too much during your first campaign. Out first campaign, way back when, was against dwarves and had over a dozen people in the party, with only 2 players. The others were NPCs with names like "V" (The wizard) and "Q" (The Druid). Pretty lame. But it was fun. And Mike got eaten by a troll.
wonlee76 07-10-07, 02:45 PM	Prior to the handy PHB II retraining rules and allowing psionics in my game (which has a nifty power for fixing up things like powers/spells known and feats), as a DM I used to follow a -1 level rule for re-creating a PC. The justification for the -1 rule is the main reason why a new PC is created is usually because an old PC died (or is as just as good be dead due to certain situations similar to your cleric PC described by the OP). Sometimes its because some player goofed up in creating his PC in some manner or a new supplement came out. If a PC dies, they would normally be raised (presuming they even have the gold for it) and lose a level in the process. Instead of paying, a new PC can be introduced with only the level penalty in place. So my suggestion is to demand that you be allowed to retrain (I'm presuming the players who got new PCs basically got new PCs with no penalties attached). In the alternative, suggest a -1 level rule to the DM with the reasons justifying why there is a -1 level rule.
Bozwevial 07-10-07, 05:12 PM	Okay...from his point of view, here's what happened: One player wanted to make a major change. Then because of that, another player wanted to make a minor change, which became a total character revamp. Then you ask if the rest of your characters can change one or two things. He's probably thinking, "Great. Now they'll want new characters too." Seriously, everyone building new characters all of a sudden is a really good way to slow the game to a crawl. Plus, your PCs were already being integrated into the campaign. How's he supposed to spontaneously come up with new connections, backstory, and other sorts of campaign grease at the drop of hat? Just stay calm for now, and if you ever want to make a major change to your character, bring this up later on and remind him that it's your turn for a rebuild.