Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lacloix 06-16-05, 02:00 PM	This isn't so much about optimizing, and more about learning about a particular class (therefore, this doesn't belong in the optimization forum). The class I'm trying to learn about is the Bard. I don't really play as spellcasters (for various reasons), but I'm thinking of making a foray into this class. Like all other characters I work with, the only sources allowed are the PHB. Also, our group plays reasonably moderate power campaigns, so getting a stat to 30 is highly unlikely. Obviously one of it's biggest strengths is its bard song, but all in all, it's not -that- big of a deal, IMO. I mean, it's a great bonus, but it doesn't just scream awesome. They also have spellcasting, decent saves (two strong, one weak), and average combat ability. The spellcasting is one area I'm trying to wrap my head around. Because almost all bard spells require will saves, the bard is going to have a hard time getting a spell off on a bard, cleric, druid, monk (though almost anyone would have a hard time getting a spell off on a monk), sorceror, wizard, or any of the creatures with high will saves. This seems to be a pretty sizeable vulnerability. How does a bard overcome this? What I would really like to know is how, in general, people who like to play bards make them work? I have been thinking about a build myself (gnome or halfling), but I'm having a hard time choosing between/balancing a bard's strength as a loremaster vs. a socialite. In our current party, we have a Rogue, Fighter, Cleric, and Sorcerer (a blaster-type), so the fifth is a pretty open slot. What I'm not aiming for is a bards are great vs. bards suck thread. In fact, I don't really care about the opinions of those who don't like bards. I'm really just looking for how others make them work. What spells do you like? What feats do you take? What role do they have in the party? And so on... Thanks. :)
Illion the Red 06-16-05, 02:06 PM	If your greatest concern is offensive power, then a Bard is not for you. Bards are best in a support role. The bardic music abilities are centered around supporting party members. Their spells are not strictly offensive, but they do have some minor firepower.
cambric 06-16-05, 02:16 PM	First, you got the right mentality for it. They are never going to be the "best" at anything...but they are a great help. I currently have a gnome bard, and I went with the "jack of all trades" route. I got lucky on my rolls and got a 17, into INT because I love playing smart PC's...and the extra skill points are helpful. The +2 to con assisted my poor roll for that and I'm doing ok. First, what type you want to play? I focused on wind instruments. My dm allows the splat books, so I carry a horn to use in battle: +2 to attack and damage, no bonus to charm saves...I use a harmonica for "social" settings. I wanted to help out the party, we 5 in our group, and so every "needed" class was taken, so I ventured out to the bard. Second, I took "Extra Music" as a feat, that gives me 4 more uses per day, and that is VERY helpful. Third, spells: I'm staying away from the healing ones, since we have 2 clerics in the group...we only have 2 spellcasters: Wizard and Sorcerer...so I don't have to worry or focus on a particular type of spells to offset not having a caster. So I've taken "Daze" and "Grease" to help in battles...I also have "Comprehend languages" and another spell I can't remember right now, those help outside of battles. Fourth: Languages!! Me personally, I love being able to speak like 8 languages at 2nd level. (3 for int...4 skills at first...1 more skill point at second). I plan on taking one every level...plus with the comprehend languages, there's no one that I can't have the opprotunity to speak too. Fifth: We have a rogue in our party, but he's multi-classed so I'm also taking skills in open locks, disable device, hide, etc...to help out. Sixth: Songs!! As you said, you can't just focus on them, but they really help out. As I get higher, the added ability for stronger songs will greatly aid the party. Hope this helps...and good luck!! I highly recommend a bard for a party that's larger than 4-5 players. Cam
Santrilla 06-16-05, 02:41 PM	Instrument choice has always somewhat confused me actually. Does it have to be an actual instrument, or can you use singing, oratory or dance to achieve the same effect?
cambric 06-16-05, 03:31 PM	Instrument choice has always somewhat confused me actually. Does it have to be an actual instrument, or can you use singing, oratory or dance to achieve the same effect? You can choose singing and oratory for sure...don't think dancing, but I'm not 100% sure on that one. But I guess you could for the charming part...but in battle, I don't see how that would work since the music, per instrument or oratory, is mind affecting. But you can take "dancing" as perform for an audience that you want to impress.
Jaime_Wolf 06-16-05, 06:26 PM	Dance can't be used unless something's been changed. I'm fairly certain oratory can't either, though singing can and is often used because it leaves your hands open for weapons. If you can convince your DM to allow you Complete Adventurer, I'd say it's the most useful to you. Great feats for bards, a few new bard spells (most not offensive, just nifty and/or useful), and it has the 3.5 equivalent of the instruments from the splat books. It's all very well balanced in my opinion, plus it has a very nice bardic PrC that DOES make bardic music awesome (virtuoso). As it's published by WotC there's no real reason not to use it, and I seriously think there's something in that book for everyone (fighters, spellcasters, rogues, bards, rangers, you name it). Overal, it's my certainly my favourate and most used book outside of the core books.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 06-16-05, 06:41 PM	Any time I play I high CHA character (like bard or soceror) I always end up being "the mouth" of the group...even if I'm not in charge, I'm the "emissary".
cambric 06-16-05, 06:42 PM	Dance can't be used unless something's been changed. I'm fairly certain oratory can't either, though singing can and is often used because it leaves your hands open for weapons. FYI: Actually, it states: Bard music can be used by song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him. (Players Handbook pg 29). So I guess it depends on what you really wanted to do...but you can use oratory. Cam
Always-Late 06-16-05, 06:51 PM	Quick question: From a strictly powergaming sense, why would anyone get an instrument instead of singing? I mean, the bard has to have some attack, right? And you can't exactly play a trumpet and hit things at the same time.
cambric 06-16-05, 06:55 PM	Quick question: From a strictly powergaming sense, why would anyone get an instrument instead of singing? I mean, the bard has to have some attack, right? And you can't exactly play a trumpet and hit things at the same time. Good question: You still have to "concentrate", so you can't sing and attack...but once you stop, you get x amount of rounds afterwards for the effects to continue. I believe it's 5 rounds after you're done, but it could be according to your level. After I wrote this, I found the information: Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action, which requires concentration and takes a standard action to concentrate on it. But bardic music that doesn't require concentration, a bard can't cast spells, activate magic items, read scrolls, etc...but they can whistle, sing, recite poetry, play an instrument, etc. So a bard could start the music, get the benefits going, stop and fire, or cast a spell, etc...for so many rounds after he stops, dependent on his level. Again, the bard is never meant to be "overpowering" in any way, shape, or form...they are "buffers"..."helpers"..."extra help" type of character. Cam
Lacloix 06-16-05, 07:30 PM	After I wrote this, I found the information... I think you misread it. Taken right from the SRD: Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). So you can attack while singing, depending on which kind of bardic music you are using. Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics all do not require concentration.
cambric 06-16-05, 08:04 PM	I think you misread it. Taken right from the SRD: So you can attack while singing, depending on which kind of bardic music you are using. Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics all do not require concentration. Actually, I read it fine, just didn't explain it properly. It's been a "discussion" before in our group. The question I took was if you wanted to "powergame" it. It's pretty tough to powergame a bard...not impossible, but tough. Thanks for the SRD explaination. Cam
Shaken, not Stunned 06-16-05, 08:22 PM	It's easy to powergame a bard. Max your diplomacy and initiative. By level three you can negate over half of your encounters against sentient life you can communicate with. Arcane disciple is a good feat for a bard, because it opens up some good offensive spells if you want to go that route. Basically you will wind up with a stealthy-healy battle sorcerer if you pick the right domain. Also remember you get free proficiency with some cool weapons, like the whip. You could take a bunch of those neat combat expertise tree feats and screw with people.
cambric 06-16-05, 08:39 PM	It's easy to powergame a bard. Max your diplomacy and initiative. By level three you can negate over half of your encounters against sentient life you can communicate with. In my campaign, I had a rogue/spy master that did that...in the new campaign, it's amazing how many NPC's we meet, important ones, who now have sense motive maxed...LOL. But that is a solid way if you wanted to powergame one...I just think that a powergame "PC" isn't a bard. :cool: Not that it can't be...but they just are not good enough in one area that makes it easy.
Kintara 06-16-05, 09:10 PM	Hmm, many of the things my Bard did used other supplements, but core only Bards can work fine. One thing that many people overlook is that Bards get an interesting selection of weapon proficiencies. In particular, they get proficiency with a whip. Clearly, whips won't be doing much damage. Where they shine is in tripping and disarming from afar. A Bard with Inspire Courage and Haste on with Improved Disarm has a pretty good chance to disarm someone with a whip. Go for a straight enhancement bonus to improve your opposed attack rolls. Alternatively, many Bards become archers, perhaps even splashing some levels in Fighter to pick up the requisite feats. Since you're going Core only, I don't think that will be necessary, as your feat selection is more limited. For spells, I tend to favor buffs and misdirection spells. Bards also get a fair number of communication and anti-divinatory spells. It's worth taking a couple of direct attack spells for when you can't do anything else helpful, but you want to try to give yourself versatility. Defensive spells are always handy, and Bards get some great ones. Alter Self, Disguise Self, Grease, Blink, Displacement, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Cure spells, Illusions, Glibness (lie with impunity!), Haste (always good), Good Hope, Shout, Dimension Door, all are useful spells (though pick and choose between categories). Pay attention to the types of spells that your party members like to prepare, and what they might not be able to prepare (as, say, a specialist wizard), and try to pick up stuff that might be overlooked. For Bardic Music, take a look at Fascinate and Suggestion. Fascinate is incredibly useful for setting up encounters, and the only trick to doing it is catching the opponent before the fight actually starts. The DC for Fascination is usually out of the park. If you can get an enemy Fascinated, your party members can leave the area, prep their spells, and even get into position (though this provokes another save). Suggestion is also a powerful ability which is essentially free. It costs no Bardic Music uses to activate, and doesn't interfere with Fascinate.
Nom 06-16-05, 09:37 PM	Like any support class, the bard's role is to make things easier for the main combatants, typically the fighters. In return, they keep you safe. In terms of direct attack spells, there are some great ones at levels 0 and 1. daze is a personal favourite - it removes an opponent (typically a grunt) from combat for a round. tasha's hideous laughter is a souped-up version. grease is fun, and targets Ref rather than Will. Often the best way to attack opposition casters is to nullify their meat-shields. You might not be able to attack the wizard, but when the guy who is supposed to be protecting him goes down in a fit of giggles you can bet he'll start worrying about your fighter's charge (especially since your fighter is buffed with bard song too). And I haven't started on uses for non-attack spells.
OpheliaWhispers 06-17-05, 02:59 AM	For Bardic Music, take a look at Fascinate and Suggestion. Fascinate is incredibly useful for setting up encounters, and the only trick to doing it is catching the opponent before the fight actually starts. The DC for Fascination is usually out of the park. If you can get an enemy Fascinated, your party members can leave the area, prep their spells, and even get into position (though this provokes another save). Suggestion is also a powerful ability which is essentially free. It costs no Bardic Music uses to activate, and doesn't interfere with Fascinate. The way I have recently used Fascinate and Suggestion was to walk up to a bunch of Ogres and one Skull Crusher Ogre, with no weapons drawn (and my party invisible right near me and the Cleric who made them Silent after I made them Invisible), it's just me, not a big threat, eh? Then I start singing and using fascinate on them... It worked! Then I used Suggestion and told them "You would be more comfortable if you stood still." And it worked on some of the Fascinated ones. Then my party, Silent and Invisable had a MUCH easier time dispatching of them. *note that when they attacked the ogres the fascinate and invisibility was broken, but man did we get the drop on them!* That is the only way I have been able to use Fascinate and Suggestion Bardic Abilities in combat, because it was BEFORE the combat. No threat seen. Just a girl walking up to a bunch of hulking Ogres.
Lord Gwydion 06-17-05, 03:17 AM	What I would really like to know is how, in general, people who like to play bards make them work? I have been thinking about a build myself (gnome or halfling), but I'm having a hard time choosing between/balancing a bard's strength as a loremaster vs. a socialite. In our current party, we have a Rogue, Fighter, Cleric, and Sorcerer (a blaster-type), so the fifth is a pretty open slot. What I'm not aiming for is a bards are great vs. bards suck thread. In fact, I don't really care about the opinions of those who don't like bards. I'm really just looking for how others make them work. What spells do you like? What feats do you take? What role do they have in the party? And so on... Thanks. :) Well, it sounds like you're on the right path already, and there's a lot of good advice in this thread. As for balancing the loremaster vs. socialite, the thing is the class already does this. Bardic Knowledge is automatic (no skill points necessary), so if you don't spend all your skill points on knowledge skills, you'll still have that. Also, you don't need to keep every Knowledge skills maxed to find them useful, but you may want one field to remain an expert in... With Bards, they have enough skill points to at least take the 5 ranks in each Knowledge to get the basics (and the synergy bonuses) out of them over the course of their careers, and still have lots of points to spend on the social skills, the subterfuge skills, or extra languages. Just don't expect to be able to know everything at first level. Finally, with a party of Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, (blaster) Sorcerer, the Bard is a good choice for the 5th character. You'll help the Fighter, Rogue and to a lesser extent Cleric in melee/ranged combat, and your spell list will fill in a lot of the gaps in the Sorcerer's repetoir. Your high level of skills will take some pressure of the Rogue (if creating characters together, try to avoid a lot of overlap), and using a ranged weapon or whip when not using bardic music or spells will help the Fighter. If you go Gnome or Halfling, you're gonna have a low strength and lower weapon damage than the bigger folk, so focusing on a whip (or other tactical weapon) would be a good idea, as would focusing on the magical and skillful areas of the class rather than trying to pump up the fighting ability. For combat feats, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm would be good. For magical feats, item creation feats aren't a bad choice for Bards IMO. Crafting is more expensive for a Bard, but they have a nice selection of spells for making stuff. Also, with lower total spell levels than full casters, I find Metamagics less useful for them. If optional books become available, there are feats to improve bardic music. Basically, try to design your character to take a little pressure off of each of the other characters. You can use healing magic (wands are nice), so the Cleric can use some of their other spells instead of always converting them to healing. You can take enchantments and illusions and divinations while the Sorcerer focuses on the evocations and conjurations and necromancy. You can take tactical combat feats so the Fighter can focus on dishing out more damage. You can take social and knowledge skills so the Rogue can focus on the stealth and detection/protection skills. And with bardic music, you can help everybody in a way no one else can. Plus, you'll be the cool guy with the high Cha that gets all the chicks. ;)
Maerdash 06-17-05, 04:21 AM	People's advice on the bard has always been the same, if you want to powergame a bard the Character opt boards have all the info you need I promise. As to the bard being a support character that is true in the generic case, but when you play the bard like the 2nd edition elven fighter/wizard you can come out with some amazing offensive and defensive abilities. Think blur, mirror image,etc for combat spells yes bards have alot more options but its hard to go wrong with a strong defense. As to the will save issue dont worry to much,use your charm type spells against fighter/rogue types, buff yourself with a defensive spell or two then take your new friend along with you as you cut the cleric/wizard/monk into iddy bitty pieces. The bard can be the nastiest class in the game when played right, and by played right I don't mean maxed to the hilt, bards are like wizards they just require a little forethought to make them dangerous. Oh almost forgot, bardic music is useful but its not something you should spend feats to improve imo you can use your spells to better effect in most situations, don't get me wrong though when you buff yourself, then start singing to give everyone including you a nice little boost before wading into combat it makes a big difference. Grrr I've got to stop rambling when I post. Edit: One last thing try playing your bard as a melee character, you might be surprised how effective they are with the right spell selection. Of course you might die screaming to but hey whats life without a little risk? :D
Lacloix 06-17-05, 02:34 PM	I've been reading the books and pouring over the spell selection working out an effective build for a bard. Once again, I'm not looking to min/max or powergame, just be effective. To the people who suggested the whip...that's pretty brilliant. I didn't even think of that. I've been planning out a bard and will have to see if I can work that in. However, being a gnome, I don't think I'll have much luck with trip attacks. Disarms would be nice though. On a side note, what is countersong good for? I looked through the PHB to find all the sonic or language-dependent spells and all I found were the shout-type spells, one charm/suggestion-type spell, and lesser geas. Now what board would I post on for a full character critique? I'll not only be posting stats, but also a detailed backstory. I would be looking for some "mechanical" advice, but only so far as it fits into the character concept.
Maerdash 06-17-05, 04:56 PM	Counter song is good for countering sonic based abilities ie:harpies.
eudas 06-17-05, 05:26 PM	Quick question: From a strictly powergaming sense, why would anyone get an instrument instead of singing? I mean, the bard has to have some attack, right? And you can't exactly play a trumpet and hit things at the same time. Singing: Pro: You always have your instrument. Singing: Con: You can never have a masterwork instrument, so no cheap +2 bonus for you. Singing: Pro: You can fight and sing at the same time. that's about it, really. certain instruments can help with various things. eudas
tiercel 06-17-05, 09:22 PM	Bardsong flavors: pure Core rules, singing/oratory is probably stronger. Yeah, you can't get the easy +2 from a masterwork, or a higher bonus from a magical-competence-bonus instrument, but generally your Perform skill is going to be pretty high anyway. It's when you add something like Complete Adventurer that playing an instrument becomes a pretty good option, when the instrument you play (even nonmagical) modifies the effects of your bardsong, and there are more nifty magical instruments that only do their cool stuff if you have X ranks in Perform (instrument type). lyre of building and the various magical pipes, most of which are fairly minor; there are magical drums and horns but they don't require Perform ranks.] ---------- If you're worried about being Will-save heavy, don't forget that you have access to two of the best anti-mage low-level spells in the game: blindness and silence. Blindness has a Fort save, is Permanent, and a blind mage is one who can't throw targetted spells without a miraculous (for a mage) Listen check. Silence is the "automatic counterspell" for most spells (since you can ready an action to cast silence centered just in front of the enemy caster for when they begin casting), not to mention you can cast it on your party's tank or grappler (or a tanglefoot bag) to go after enemy casters. (Also remember, should you decide on dispel magic or its greater variant, that your dispels are no less potent than your party cleric's or sorcerer's.) Other creatures who would be resistant to your Will save spells are still vulnerable to your buffed-up pals, including any charmed minions (you can pick up charm monster at 7th level, which unlike charm person lasts for 1 day/level). ---------- Definitely pump up your Use Magic Device skill -- heck, as a bard you should have a pretty high Charisma anyway, you get more use this way. At low levels it won't do much for you, because the DCs are pretty high. But it doesn't take too long. Example: a 8th level bard could easily have a Charisma of 20 (starting at 16, bumped at 4th and 8th level, and a +2 Charisma item), a +3 bonus from the circlet of persuasion (DMG) and 11 ranks, for a total of +19. Already, at 8th level, this bard can use any wand or staff in the game (DC 20) with zero chance of failure, and that's without going to great lengths (having really high stats, playing a +Cha starting race, burning feats on Skill Focus or similar, getting a magical item that gives you a competence bonus on UMD checks). If your DM would allow a slotted, custom item that gives a +5 competence bonus to UMD checks, the same way eyes of the eagle (DMG) give a +5 competence bonus to Spot checks (for only 2500 gp), then you could pull this off even sooner. Remember you can already use wands, staves, or arcane scrolls of spells on your spell list, so you can be backup healer with a wand of cure light wounds, arrange an escape with a wand or few scrolls of invisibility, or call in some help with a scroll of summon monster, without having to know any of these spells. The reason I emphasize this is that I see this playing into the bard's strength -- being able to do bit of anything. Starting at the mid-levels, if you have a pile of unique-use scrolls and low level wands, and a handy haversack so you can always get the one you want, your bard starts enjoying the "Batman effect" -- always have the right gadget for the trouble at hand. ---------- What I like best about bards is that they are relatively unconstrained. Most character types have a heavy set of expectations -- mages almost have to have fireball, teleport, etc, clerics need to heal and generally to be a melee fighter, rogues need to scout, find & disarm traps, and sneak attack, fighters have to hit stuff a lot, but bards are pretty much free to do whatever. Yeah, there are a couple of expectations: you'll probably need to sing inspiring bardsong for at least the first round of combat, and you should probably be good at being the "face of the party" (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, even Gather Info). As a pleasant side effect, you generally don't draw lots of targetted attacks -- they are too busy aiming at the guy throwing fireballs or the one pushing a sword in their face. For the most part, the joy of bards is that you'll be able to help out with whatever the party really could use at the moment -- one more offensive spell, one more healing, one extra disarm, that +1 or +2 bonus that makes an all-important attack or skill check succeed, one more utility spell that no one else is carrying because they can't spend a round casting it when they are too busy healing/blasting. Not only do you make everyone else in the party better, but you are in a unique position to have lots of chances to "save the day." Make the most of them!
Thorak 06-18-05, 12:50 AM	Ahh, bards. The misunderstood class. Before I go any further; bards are not a "support class". Bards are not mediocre. Bards are not underpowered. They sure can support their allies, but they can be grossly powerful all on their lonesome. Kintara hit my favourite point. Fascinate's DC is gross. So gross that, by level 16 or so, it will on average be higher than anything in the MM's Will save. The highest Will save modifier in the MM, so far as I know, is a +33 from the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. So, with a 19 (because a 20 automatically saves regardless), it's best Will save that isn't automatically a save is 52. A 17th level Bard can have 20 ranks in Perform, +3 bonus from Skill Focus, an 18 Charisma they've boosted 4 times through levels, a +5 to Perform instrument (which is masterwork for an extra +2 that does indeed stack), a +6 Charisma cloak, and let's say +4 worth of an inherent Charisma bonus. Add that up, and you've got a Charisma of 32, which means a modifier of +11, 20 ranks, and +10 worth of extra bonuses. That's a +41. And, given an average roll of 10 on the Perform, the DC is 51. So there you go. For a maxxed out (when considering only the PHB and DMG) Bard, they can get a Fascinate the toughest creature in the MM for Will saves can only beat on an 18+. A creature that, for the record, has a CR of 27; 10 over the Bard's level. That's grossly good. The DC for Suggestion isn't nearly so good, but you get to make as many of them as you have Bard levels. Chances of them failing at least one is pretty darn good, regardless of their save. And besides, the DC for Suggestion uses half the Bard's level instead of spell level; that beats out the best DC for most casters. The two weaknesses to this are non-sentients, and spell resistance. The former generally more so than the latter. Another one, nearly as good, is Bluff. Combined with Glibness. The DC for a "really out there, almost too incredible to consider" bluff is a +20 to the target's Sense Motive. Glibness is a +30 bonus. Given that Charisma's your best ability, and Bluff is a class skill, you can have your Bluff so ridiculously high that you can convince the King you're his long-dead mother brought back from the dead. Even if you're a guy. And this is just little tidbits. The Bard is the absolute master of manipulation, looking at the core classes. No class can meddle with the minds of others, magically or not, than the Bard.
Maerdash 06-18-05, 01:38 AM	Ahh, bards. The misunderstood class. Before I go any further; bards are not a "support class". Bards are not mediocre. Bards are not underpowered. They sure can support their allies, but they can be grossly powerful all on their lonesome. Kintara hit my favourite point. Fascinate's DC is gross. So gross that, by level 16 or so, it will on average be higher than anything in the MM's Will save. The highest Will save modifier in the MM, so far as I know, is a +33 from the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. So, with a 19 (because a 20 automatically saves regardless), it's best Will save that isn't automatically a save is 52. A 17th level Bard can have 20 ranks in Perform, +3 bonus from Skill Focus, an 18 Charisma they've boosted 4 times through levels, a +5 to Perform instrument (which is masterwork for an extra +2 that does indeed stack), a +6 Charisma cloak, and let's say +4 worth of an inherent Charisma bonus. Add that up, and you've got a Charisma of 32, which means a modifier of +11, 20 ranks, and +10 worth of extra bonuses. That's a +41. And, given an average roll of 10 on the Perform, the DC is 51. So there you go. For a maxxed out (when considering only the PHB and DMG) Bard, they can get a Fascinate the toughest creature in the MM for Will saves can only beat on an 18+. A creature that, for the record, has a CR of 27; 10 over the Bard's level. That's grossly good. The DC for Suggestion isn't nearly so good, but you get to make as many of them as you have Bard levels. Chances of them failing at least one is pretty darn good, regardless of their save. And besides, the DC for Suggestion uses half the Bard's level instead of spell level; that beats out the best DC for most casters. The two weaknesses to this are non-sentients, and spell resistance. The former generally more so than the latter. Another one, nearly as good, is Bluff. Combined with Glibness. The DC for a "really out there, almost too incredible to consider" bluff is a +20 to the target's Sense Motive. Glibness is a +30 bonus. Given that Charisma's your best ability, and Bluff is a class skill, you can have your Bluff so ridiculously high that you can convince the King you're his long-dead mother brought back from the dead. Even if you're a guy. And this is just little tidbits. The Bard is the absolute master of manipulation, looking at the core classes. No class can meddle with the minds of others, magically or not, than the Bard. I think...yes yes I did, I just got a tear in my eye. Bravo! :D
cambric 06-18-05, 08:00 AM	Ahh, bards. The misunderstood class. Before I go any further; bards are not a "support class". Bards are not mediocre. Bards are not underpowered. They sure can support their allies, but they can be grossly powerful all on their lonesome. Kintara hit my favourite point. Fascinate's DC is gross. So gross that, by level 16 or so, it will on average be higher than anything in the MM's Will save. The highest Will save modifier in the MM, so far as I know, is a +33 from the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. So, with a 19 (because a 20 automatically saves regardless), it's best Will save that isn't automatically a save is 52. A 17th level Bard can have 20 ranks in Perform, +3 bonus from Skill Focus, an 18 Charisma they've boosted 4 times through levels, a +5 to Perform instrument (which is masterwork for an extra +2 that does indeed stack), a +6 Charisma cloak, and let's say +4 worth of an inherent Charisma bonus. Add that up, and you've got a Charisma of 32, which means a modifier of +11, 20 ranks, and +10 worth of extra bonuses. That's a +41. And, given an average roll of 10 on the Perform, the DC is 51. So there you go. For a maxxed out (when considering only the PHB and DMG) Bard, they can get a Fascinate the toughest creature in the MM for Will saves can only beat on an 18+. A creature that, for the record, has a CR of 27; 10 over the Bard's level. That's grossly good. The DC for Suggestion isn't nearly so good, but you get to make as many of them as you have Bard levels. Chances of them failing at least one is pretty darn good, regardless of their save. And besides, the DC for Suggestion uses half the Bard's level instead of spell level; that beats out the best DC for most casters. The two weaknesses to this are non-sentients, and spell resistance. The former generally more so than the latter. Another one, nearly as good, is Bluff. Combined with Glibness. The DC for a "really out there, almost too incredible to consider" bluff is a +20 to the target's Sense Motive. Glibness is a +30 bonus. Given that Charisma's your best ability, and Bluff is a class skill, you can have your Bluff so ridiculously high that you can convince the King you're his long-dead mother brought back from the dead. Even if you're a guy. And this is just little tidbits. The Bard is the absolute master of manipulation, looking at the core classes. No class can meddle with the minds of others, magically or not, than the Bard. :clap: Now this is supposing you have a dm that lets you level that high...my current dm doesn't, so we get to about 12-14th level and we start over...though, we're gently "pushing" him to let us go higher and he said he would...so this gives me a LOT of hope to see my bard getting the kind of power you just described.
Lacloix 06-18-05, 10:33 AM	Tiercel and Thorak...absolutely brilliant. This is exactly what I was looking for by way of information. A :cookie: to both of you... It's when you add something like Complete Adventurer... I wish... The ironic thing is that, in my group, I have the strongest anti-OGL attitude. But it would be nice if we could use some of the splatbooks and such produced by WoTC. Blindness...Silence... I didn't even think about Blindness. I pretty much overlooked that spell. I was definitely planning on silence, but casting it on a tanglefoot bag is just brilliant. I was thinking of casting it on a crossbow bolt and shooting my target, but your idea would work much better. Definitely pump up your Use Magic Device skill... Originally, I was going to ignore it, as I figured I could already use a lot of magic devices. I changed my mind once I took Craft Wondrous Item for a feat (with my bard spells alone, I can craft 40+ of the items). With UMD, I can create all sorts of magic devices, using scrolls. Not to mention the fun I can have with the magic items I couldn't use otherwise. :D Fascinate's DC is gross. Definitely. That, with the Suggestion song, is a respectable combo. The two weaknesses to this are non-sentients, and spell resistance. The former generally more so than the latter. Well, undead aren't too much of the problem. Between the holy water and alchemist's fire that I will carry, the cleric (who is pretty good with the turning), and the sorceror with the fire spells, undead aren't going to be much of a problem. Spell resistance does worry me, though. I was thinking of taking Spell Penetration around mid-level or so, though I'm not sure if my feats are better spent elsewhere. I've pretty much compiled my intended bard build. I'll pull it up and post it here and you all can tell me what you think. Thanks again for all the help, this is exactly what I'm looking for.
Lacloix 06-18-05, 10:57 AM	This bit is a short backstory I wrote for the character. It's how I would like the DM to introduce him into the campaign. It also gives a bit of insight into the character. Some things to note: 1) His name is Fubernacky Indarglimmer Glammercloak. Keep that in mind when he picks up the cloak. 2) The hat is an intelligent Hat of Disguise, though it's only intelligent enough to communicate by empathy. It also has the lesser power of Minor Image once a day. Sometimes the hat uses its power to Disguise Self (usually without the gnome realizing it) in order to help protect his identity. Also, it occasionally uses it's Minor Image ability to help kickstart the gnome's memory (though never to any avail). At best, the gnome would assume that he's hallucinating. His Wisdom is 8, to reflect his tendency to be a little dense. Presumably he's on the run from something, and though he doesn't know it, the hat does. 3) The rucksack is obviously a Heward's Handy Haversack. 4) After character creation and item purchases, he only had nine silver left. So here it is...let me know what you think. :) The gnome awoke in an unfamiliar place. His eyes opened to see a wooden ceiling, featureless save for the thin crevices between planks and an occasional knot in the wood. Roused from his slumber, he looked to his right and was greeted by an open window, pouring in sunlight and the sounds of a bustling town. A simple outfit, cloak, and hat rested on a chair underneath the window. On the floor next to the garments, lay a chain shirt, morningstar, crossbow, and a rucksack. Now thoroughly confused, the gnome sat up and evaluated his surroundings. The room was small, the only furnishings being the bed and the chair, and not much room otherwise. The gnome sniffed. He sensed an odor of unwashed linens and began to wonder whose bed he was in, and more importantly, when he or she would be returning. Not feeling particularly curious, the gnome rolled out of bed and began to dress. After donning the outfit and armor, the gnome decided to investigate the rucksack. His stomach growled as he picked it up. “I could certainly appreciate a hearty breakfast right about now,” the gnome muttered. As he spoke something began to shift in the rucksack and make its way to the top. The startled gnome dropped the pack and jumped back. To his left was the morningstar, which he picked up as he cautiously advanced towards the rucksack. The gnome poked it a couple of times with the morningstar, but the peculiar sack did not move again. He picked up the rucksack, and holding it away from his body (as far as a gnome can), he lifted the top flap. Gingerly, the gnome peeked into the sack. He was greeted, not by some vicious beast, but a small pouch. He sniffed and distinguished the aroma of nuts and fruit. No longer worried for his safety, he took the pouch from the bag and opened it. Sure enough, it was filled with a variety of nuts and dried fruit. “Wonderful!” The gnome exclaimed as he engorged on the magically conjured cuisine. After finishing his meal, he was a little parched. “Oh generous Magic Bag, I ask that you provide me with a beverage.” The bag shunted again. Inside, the gnome found a full waterskin at the top of the pack. He took a few swigs from the waterskin, and when his whistle was sufficiently wetted, he turned back to the rucksack. “Now, oh Magic Bag,” the gnome invoked dramatically, “I beseech you to provide me with all the riches this world has to offer!” The back responded with a jolt, and the excited gnome yanked open the flap. On top of the sack was a leather pouch, not much bigger than the one in which his breakfast was delivered. Confused, the gnome lifted the pouch from the bag. It was rather light, considering it contained all the wealth in the world. He emptied the meager purse into his hand and discovered only nine silver pieces. He frowned and wondered as to what dire straits the world has found itself. Before the gnome could investigate the oddity any further, he heard a noise outside the door, as if someone had walked by. He quietly returned the rest of the food, water, and his wealth to the bag. When silence returned, he proceeded to gather the rest of his belongings. As he picked up the cloak, he noticed a pattern embroidered on the inside of the top of the hood. Almost blending in with the cloak itself, he could see a monogram in the Draconic alphabet. “F-I-G,” the gnome deciphered from the monogram. “Who is Fig?” The gnome was confused, even more so by his next realization. “Who am I?” The gnome began to reel from the shock. Try as he might, he could not recall a single memory prior to his discovery of the wooden ceiling with the knots in the planks, nor could he recall his own identity. “A strange predicament indeed,” he mused as he began to calm down, “but there must be logical explanation.” He checked his head for knots of its own, and found none. He noticed he was a little achy, but that could easily have been from the shoddy bed he had slept in. “Well, these are obviously my belongings, as they fit me so well. I guess that means this is my cloak. Therefore, I am Fig,” he said triumphantly and then stopped. “Fig? What kind of name is that for a gnome? No matter, there are more pressing issues at hand,” and he threw the cloak over his shoulders. Fig gathered the rucksack and weapons, and peeked out the window to see if anything looked familiar. Sadly, the locale revealed nothing by way of memories. The despondent gnome frowned. “All in due time, I suppose,” he sighed. Fig did notice that he was in some kind of business district. There were many storefronts along the road, attended by vendors peddling their wares. The streets were swarming with commoners, engaged in all manner of business. The building Fig occupied was two stories tall, and spanned much too far to be a home. To either side he saw another three windows, much like his own. Clearly he was in some kind of inn or border house. Satisfied with his reconnaissance, he donned his hat and turned towards the door. Fig was gripped by fear as the door, along with the rest of the wall, slowly began to fade away. Or perhaps it was the hewn stone wall underneath that began to fade in. He turned back to the window to find that it had also disappeared. His cozy inn room had turned into a dank, shady cavern. An alchemist’s bench shimmered into existence where his bed had been. Hunched over the workbench was a gnome that Fig recognized as himself, though not so smartly dressed. The Fig at the workbench was clothed in tattered rags, stained with dirt, blood, and other unidentifiable substances. He anxiously toiled over the beakers of various concoctions, with his quivering hands barely able to measure the ingredients. The sound of bubbling and clanking glass was interrupted by a clomping noise, as if someone was approaching. The clomping grew louder. “Go away!” The not-so-unkempt Fig screamed, his voice quivering. From the darkness that previously harbored his window, an imposing figure emerged, clad in plate mail. Its face was concealed by a helm crafted to resemble a demonic figure. Its tall frame loomed over Fig, and the gnome could not say whether it was a human or a hill giant. In its hand was a scourge, the barbs dripping blood. The other Fig also turned to face the figure, obviously terror stricken. The bedraggled Fig seemed to say something, but the only noise to emerge from his lips was a desperate squeaking. The figure snarled and raised the scourge for a strike. In unison, both Figs covered their face with their hands and let out a whine… There was a pounding at the door. Fig slowly lowered his hands and was back in his room. There was no trace of the cavern, his other self, or the terrifying creature with the scourge. Fig realized he was sweating and short of breath. “What’s with all the racket in there!?” A voice boomed from the other side of the door. Fig collected himself as best as he could. “Racket? I am sorry, my good man, but I do not know to what you are referring,” Fig replied with a hint of a quiver. A muffled grumbling permeated through the door. “Just keep it down, you're not the only ‘guest’ here,” the voice snapped back, and the person on the other side of the door walked away. After a few minutes, Fig had fully collected himself. He adjusted his rucksack, belt, then hat. Satisfied with his appearance, he opened the door and prepared to face a new day. As he stepped out into the hall, he accidentally bumped into a human who was passing by. “Watch your path, halfling,” the burly human grumbled and continued on his way. “Halfling!? What kind of an intelligent being, presuming you can be described as such, cannot distinguish a halfling from a gnome!?” He retorted, but the human was already gone. “Magic bags that think the entire world can survive on nine silver, inns with rooms that turn into nightmares, and humans who cannot tell a halfling from a gnome,” the gnome muttered, “I have certainly stumbled into a sour pickle today.” “Now where did I leave my hat?”
Lacloix 06-18-05, 11:25 AM	Here's the basic sheet for "Fig". He's starting at level 4, but I'm including his spell/feat picks at later levels for critique. "Fig" Fubarnacky Indarglimmer Glammercloak CN Gnome Bard 5 Age: 60 Height: 3'5" Weight: 45lbs. Hair: Black Eyes: Blue Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 17 HP 32 Languages: Common, Gnome, Dwarven, Draconic SKILLS (Rank): *Bluff (8) *Concentration (8) Craft (Alchemy) (5) *Diplomacy (6) Gather Information (1) Knowledge (arcana) (5) Knowledge (history) (5) Knowledge (local) (5) *Perform (oratory) (8) *Sense Motive (5) Spellcraft (1) Sleight of Hand (1) *Use Magic Device (8) -(*)Skill that gets boosted every level -The remaining 2 sp/level will go to Spellcraft (to 5 ranks). -After spellcraft is at 5 ranks, I'll do 1 sp/level into Gather Information and Decipher Script. -After Decipher Script is at 5 ranks, I'll catch up Sense Motive and Diplomacy, and then start boosting Sleight of Hand. FEATS (1) Point Blank Shot (3) Craft Wondrous Item (6) Precise Shot (9) Leadership (12) Spell Penetration or ??? (15) ??? or Spell Penetration (18) Greater Spell Penetration The reason why I took Craft Wondrous Item at such a low level is based not on tactics, but the character. The cloak mentioned above is a Cloak of Resistance +1 that he had crafted himself (though he doesn't know it). The Leadership feat is pretty much just to help him set up his own alchemy shop later on. SPELL PICKS 0 (1)Detect Magic (1)Light (1)Read Magic (1)Mage Hand (2)Message (3)Resistance 1 (2)Charm Person (2)Silent Image -> Expeditious Retreat (8) (3)Identify (5)Comprehend Languages (16)Unseen Servant 2 (4)Invisibility (4)Detect Thoughts (4)Suggestion (7)Silence (17)??? (maybe Eagle's Splendor, Cat's Grace, or Tongues) 3 (7)Blink (7)Major Image (8)Charm Monster (10)Glibness (18)Clairvoyance/Clairaudience 4 (10)Dominate Person (10)Shadow Conjuration (11)Invisibility, Greater (13)Modify Memory (19)Dimension Door 5 (14)Dispel Magic, Greater (14)Suggestion, Mass (14)Shadow Evocation (16)Persistent Image (20)Shadow Walk 6 (17)Analyze Dweomer (17)Charm Monster, Mass (17)Otto's Dance (19)Shout, Greater I'm definitely open to suggestions here. In terms of character, enchantment and illusion is very valuable to him, as it was a huge help in letting him escape whatever he's running from. It was very hard to pick my fifth spell at levels 1-3 as I had trouble figuring what lower levels spells I would want to wait for until I reached a high level. MAGICAL GEAR Intelligent Hat of Disguise I still haven't figured out a name for it yet... AL CN; Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10 Empathy, 30ft. vision and hearing, Ego 4 Minor Image 1/day Disguise Self/unlimited Chain Shirt +1 Heward's Handy Haversack Embrodiered Cloak of Resistance +1 A few minor potions I'm open to suggestions anywhere, as long as it fits with the character concept. Please, tell me what you think. Thanks. :)
Nom 06-18-05, 03:00 PM	Quick ability score question: Are you doing a 25 point buy? Because assuming the level 4 increase went into Cha I get 26 points. Str 12->10 (4), Dex 14 (6), Con 10->12 (2), Int 14 (6), Wis 8 (0), Cha 16->17 (10) You've also got the "caster's dilemma". Is the extra +1 to save DCs worth losing +2 off other ability scores?
Lacloix 06-18-05, 04:07 PM	Are you doing a 25 point buy? For this campaign, it's a 28 point buy. And that's what's there: 4+6+2+6+10=28 I kinda got my hopes up for a minute there...I was thinking I'd be getting another 2 Con. :) As for the 10 points spend on Cha, it's more of a character thing than anything. He is not meant to be particularly strong or resilient, but a kind of bumbling, unimposing, reasonably intelligent and friendly guy. Had he more physical prowress and willpower, Fig would have been able to do more to that figure in the plate mail than just run away. On a mechanical level, that +1 from Charisma is good for much more than save DCs. It also affects the bard songs, many of my skills (including UMD), and other Charisma-based tests (which are likely with Charm Person). Not to say that I boosted Charisma for this purpose, but it certainly has its uses.
Kintara 06-19-05, 01:21 AM	Remember to take advantage of your ability to switch out spells every three levels, once you reach level 5. I would skip Suggestion and Mass Suggestion, as you get them as Bardic Music abilities. Yes, they require some set up to use, but you don't have the luxury of a lot of spells known. You need to make each spell count. Also, take GLIBNESS. If there was one iconic spell for Bards, it's that one. I'd take it over an Enchantment of an equivalent level any day. I'm assuming that you're working with your Sorcerer friend to cover eachother's bases. Personally, I think Haste is a better spell for a Bard to take. Sorcerers can cast it, but they tend to want to do other things. Just make sure that he'll actually bother to cast it. Though I mentioned it, I'm not personally a big fan of Good Hope, but that's partially because I take advantage of some tricks to make Inspire Courage even better. Try not to double up on things that would have a similar end effect. Dominate and Hold are rather similar in use, when you think about it. Consider Mirror Image as a defensive spell, perhaps instead of something like Blink. I think it's often underrated as one of the better defenses in the game. Consider taking something like Shout. Bards don't get many damaging attack spells, but sometimes you need something like that. Shadow Conjuration and Evocation are great, and I've used them, but your spell list is already rife with Will save effects. Heck, Sound Burst would probably be enough for those situations when Will save/Mind Affecting spells won't cut it. Alter Self is a great spell, especially if you take some time to find good forms for your type. Swim, Fly, and Climb on the cheap, and get Natural Armor while doing it.
Nom 06-19-05, 07:18 AM	For this campaign, it's a 28 point buy. And that's what's there: 4+6+2+6+10=28 I kinda got my hopes up for a minute there...I was thinking I'd be getting another 2 Con. :)Serves me right for trying to do simple maths at 5am in the morning. :|
Lacloix 06-19-05, 09:16 AM	Before I start, a little more reading has led me to alter my spell list a little. At this point, I know some might say that I'm better off posting on the char. op. board, but (from what I've read), advice on that board doesn't really take character concept into consideration. 0 (1)Detect Magic (1)Light (1)Read Magic (1)Mage Hand (2)Message (3)Resistance 1 (2)Charm Person (2)Silent Image -> Expeditious Retreat (8) (3)Identify (5)Comprehend Languages (16)Unseen Servant 2 (4)Invisibility (4)Detect Thoughts (4)Suggestion (7)Silence (17)??? (maybe Eagle's Splendor, Cat's Grace, or Tongues) 3 (7)Blink (7)Major Image (8)Charm Monster (10)Glibness (18)Clairvoyance/Clairaudience 4 (10)Dominate Person (10)Shadow Conjuration (11)Invisibility, Greater (13)Modify Memory (19)Dimension Door 5 (14)Dispel Magic, Greater (14)Suggestion, Mass (14)Shadow Evocation (16)Persistent Image (20)Shadow Walk 6 (17)Analyze Dweomer (17)Charm Monster, Mass (17)Otto's Dance (19)Shout, Greater Remember to take advantage of your ability to switch out spells every three levels, once you reach level 5. Originally I kind of ignored that. I figured, if I'm just going to switch to Spell X later on, then I might as well pick Spell X now. However, I did find a few instances where I would want to change this, particularly in trading up my Image spells. I would skip Suggestion and Mass Suggestion, as you get them as Bardic Music abilities. The problem is in the combat application. I can't use a Fascinate song in combat (and I party with players that have a tendency to lack patience). At one point, I was going to switch out Suggestion for Blindness/Deafness, but Suggestion has many more practical uses (in combat). Also, take GLIBNESS. I actually had taken a pass on that figuring that my Bluff skill is high enough. Besides, it only works on that one skill, and (essentially) only in conversation. Not to mention that there are quite a few good 3rd level spells. But come to think of it, it does fit the character concept much better than some of the divination spells that I have. *edits spell picks* Personally, I think Haste is a better spell for a Bard to take. The Sorc already took it. Besides, Expeditious Retreat is likely to work much better for my purposes. Furthermore, the Sorceror is not much of a team player. Actually most of the players are not really team players. Ironically enough, the Rogue is the biggest team player. When things go down, folks tend to head in twenty different directions. One of the benefits to playing a "support" character is that I can complement many of the other characters, while being a jack-of-trades, I can take care of myself (even if it involves retreating :)) Though I mentioned it, I'm not personally a big fan of Good Hope, but that's partially because I take advantage of some tricks to make Inspire Courage even better. Yeah, I had already snipped it when I found out it didn't stack with the bard's song. And what tricks do you do to make Inspire Courage better? I thought all the bard songs were as is. Dominate and Hold are rather similar in use, when you think about it. I have to say, the Hold spells have been severely nerfed. I can cast a 3rd level Charm Monster, and make friends with the thing (in which case, maybe it will fight for me). Or I can cast a 4th level Hold Monster and it just can't move, though it gets a save -every- round to break free. Hold Monster is definitely off the list. Consider taking something like Shout. I opted for Greater Shout. Shout is not effective enough (only 5d6, save for half) to spend a third level slot. Besides, this character is more of an artificer/enchanter type (hence Craft Wondrous Item). On that note, I wish I could get bestow curse. This character would have a field day creating cursed items and then giving them to his enemies. :D Alter Self is a great spell, especially if you take some time to find good forms for your type. I did have that at one point. The problem was with the forms I could take. As a gnome, I could only take the form of a humanoid, which leaves me with pretty much only the standard races, goblinoids, lizardmen (and those fish people), and gnolls. At best, the spell would give me +1 natural armor (lizardmen) or the ability to swim really well (fish-people). I didn't think it was worth the spell slot. Thanks for the advice. I didn't even notice that bit about the charm/hold spells until you pointed it out. I appreciate all the advice so far. This character is already 200% closer to what I was aiming for since I started working on it. Speaking of, I changed the feats around a bit. I got rid of Rapid Reload mainly because I don't want to spend so many feats on combat (as he's not really a Skald-type bard). However, this does leave me with a bit of a gap in my Feat selection. FEATS (1) Point Blank Shot (3) Craft Wondrous Item (6) Precise Shot (9) Leadership (12) Spell Penetration or ??? (15) ??? or Spell Penetration (18) Greater Spell Penetration As you can see, I'm taking Leadership sooner. I didn't want to wait until 12th level to set up my store. I still have a gap in the 12th or 15th level spot though. Considering I am only using the PHB for feats, I don't have a lot of options. I had thought of taking another Craft Feat (probably Forge Ring), but I don't really plan to do so much crafting as an adventurer (the Craft Wondrous item is likely to play more of a part in my history, though I still plan to make a few things here and there). I'm particularly cautious about crafting items, mainly due to the XP cost, and I don't want to fall behind in levels. Brew Potion might be a possibility, as the cost is low, and it can help diversify my shop, but I'm really not certain...
The Man from Uncle 06-19-05, 09:50 AM	In the past we'd (the guys at my table) always considered the bard to be a kind of comic relief character more than a serious player. But I've just created a bard for the first time (lvl 8) and he's a surprisingly handy character. The wip idea mentioned above is great, particularly trip. Combine it with a throwing weapon like a dagger or dart and you can hurt them while they are on the floor and trying to get up while still keeping your distance. My favourite, and I think very undervalued spell, is Major Image. It's the absolute bollox. Sure, the will save to disbelieve it won't challenge a good number of opponents, but then it doesn't really have to. They only get a saving throw if they interact with the illusion. If you cast the image of an ancient dragon above someones head, with full sound, smell and heat, they ain't going to attack it (and thus get their save). They will run. If you play the spell right you can make even very high challenge rating opponents shat themselves and do legs. In fact even a level 1 spell like Ghost sound at the right time can put the frighteners on enemys without giving them a saving throw. The trick to using the bards spells is to use things that won't give your enemies saving throws. You do need a DM who is prepared to roleplay the enemies a bit and not metagame their tacitcs, but as long as he plays fair you'll be away like Flynn.
Nom 06-19-05, 10:22 AM	I have to say, the Hold spells have been severely nerfed. I can cast a 3rd level Charm Monster, and make friends with the thing (in which case, maybe it will fight for me). Or I can cast a 4th level Hold Monster and it just can't move, though it gets a save -every- round to break free.Off topic, but make sure you understand the difference between being notably friendly to you (but not necessarily your allies), otherwise retaining full capacity for action and self defense, and being completely helpless, having 0 Dex and being a valid target for a coup de grace. There are still many situations where charm is preferable to hold, but in the heat of battle the latter all but eliminates an opponent while the former struggles to even work (+5 to save).
Lacloix 06-19-05, 10:40 AM	The whip idea mentioned above is great, particularly trip. With my mediocre strength, and small stature, I would think that would be a waste, no? My favourite, and I think very undervalued spell, is Major Image. I agree completely. There are still many situations where charm is preferable to hold, but in the heat of battle the latter all but eliminates an opponent while the former struggles to even work (+5 to save). Granted, but with the free save every round, Hold spells aren't likely to last their full duration (especially with higher CR targets), unless the target has really lousy Will saves. As for Charm Person, I wouldn't use it for most combat situations, the only exception being a single hostile where I have the opportunity to talk first. In most cases, I'd use a tactfully worded Suggestion to recruit opponents to my aid. You definitely have a good point, and I am starting to reconsider Charm Monster for that third level slot. Though if I snip that, I'm not sure what I would put in its place. I'd like to go with a good enchantment or illusion spell (fits with the concept), but I already have all the good ones... As always, I appreciate the advice.
Kintara 06-19-05, 03:08 PM	I'd switch out Invisibility once you get Greater Invisibility, or just stay with Invisibility. I've found that having both doesn't make up for the opportunity to take something else. In fact, I'm not much of a fan of Invisibility at high levels. It tends to work less and less frequently as the monsters and enemies become more powerful. Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, True Seeing, See Invisibility, it seems like someone always has something to counter it. Speaking of, did your Sorcerer pick up Glitterdust or something to counter Invisibility? It can be nice to have a Cure spell, by the way. Sometimes the Cleric just can't help. Sometimes he's the one that needs healing. But you could always just buy a wand. I'm a little worried that your spells won't be useful at low levels, and you'll be stuck firing your bow for much of the combat. That wouldn't be so bad, but you don't get Precise Shot until level 6. Are you starting at level 1? If so, take Precise Shot at level 3. You could continue taking archery feats, like Rapid Shot. You'll find that sometimes you'll be relying on it anyway. I suppose you could take Craft Wand. Wands are a nice way to pad out your abilities. Improved Initiative always helps. Lizardfolk grant +5 Natural Armor. Does your DM limit himself to only the Monster Manual?
Sargon 06-19-05, 06:41 PM	Awsome Bard concept !!! The only Bard i ever made was a monk/bard (studied in a monostary but found singing was her fasiniation so she left the monostary and traveld around singing her sound. which just happens to be "With Karate I'll Kick your A$S" One simple thing no one else mentioned that is good about bards (assuming FIG can get his head straight) Bards don't have to pay for lodging... Simply walk into an Inn speak to the bar keep.. Tell him that you are a singer of songs (or whatever) and you'de like to sing in his bar, if only he's let you stay the night. :cookie: :cookie:'s for your Bard
Lacloix 06-19-05, 09:11 PM	Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, True Seeing, See Invisibility... Good point. I wasn't even planning to use it all that much. Actually, I only took it as an Oh-sh*t spell, so I'd be likely to just cast it and run. Speaking of, did your Sorcerer pick up Glitterdust or something to counter Invisibility? Nope...he's a total blaster mage. Mostly evocation spells, with a couple utility spells thrown in. He's likely to pick up True Seeing when it becomes available, but that's not for a while. I was considering Glitterdust at one point. Not just for the seeing invisible creatures, but for the blindness (good against fighters). However, it's AoE is a little small (20 ft. radius) which means in a fair number of cases, I might have to fire off quite a few. Considering the limited # of spells/day I have, it's quite possible a single invisible attacker could eat away all my level 2 spells for the day. I figure I might be better off with a wand. Sometimes he's the one that needs healing. But you could always just buy a wand. Yeah, I was planning on a wand, too. Being the crafty/magic-oriented type, UMD is a major focus for him. He'll be able to use wands reliably in no time... I'm a little worried that your spells won't be useful at low levels, and you'll be stuck firing your bow for much of the combat. I'm starting at level 5. I have to take Craft Wondrous at level 3. It's how he got the cloak. As for combat spells, I plan to make use of Charm Person (against single opponents) and Suggestions (in battles with multiple opponents). Also, I plan to pursuade the sorceror to craft a wand of grease for me. You could continue taking archery feats, like Rapid Shot. You'll find that sometimes you'll be relying on it anyway. That's the problem I'm having with the character. Those feats will come in handy, but it doesn't mesh too well with the concept. While the DM is going to be developing his past (I want to be surprised, as a player, when Fig discovers who he is), there is definitely going to be more of a craftsman/alchemist/artificer twist to it, than a swashbuckling bard angle. As a result, I want the feats (which, to me, represent a part of the things that make a character extraordinary) to reflect this. Even though he's not going to be a powerful caster, per se, he's going to be able to use a -lot- of items with spell-like abilities...not to mention the things he'll be able to craft. Rapid Shot sounds like a good idea, though. However, I'm not likely to take it before 12th level. 9th level seems to be about a good place to set up that shop (which may garner some interesting gear) I suppose you could take Craft Wand. I was thinking of Forge Ring, only because it fits the gnome aspect better. However, Craft Wondrous is likely to drain a fair bit of xp from me as it is, so it might be better to limit myself to a single Craft feat. Lizardfolk grant +5 Natural Armor. Does your DM limit himself to only the Monster Manual? Well, he has a few custom creatures up his sleeve, but we are essentially limited to the MM. Lizardfolk get a +5? I thought it was only +1...that changes some things... I've made a lot of changes since I've gotten so much advice. I'll have to post the new profile up sometime soon...
tiercel 06-22-05, 06:17 PM	Before I start, a little more reading has led me to alter my spell list a little. At this point, I know some might say that I'm better off posting on the char. op. board, but (from what I've read), advice on that board doesn't really take character concept into consideration. 0 (1)Detect Magic (1)Light (1)Read Magic (1)Mage Hand (2)Message (3)Resistance 1 (2)Charm Person (2)Silent Image -> Expeditious Retreat (8) (3)Identify (5)Comprehend Languages (16)Unseen Servant 2 (4)Invisibility (4)Detect Thoughts (4)Suggestion (7)Silence (17)??? (maybe Eagle's Splendor, Cat's Grace, or Tongues) 3 (7)Blink (7)Major Image (8)Charm Monster (10)Glibness (18)Clairvoyance/Clairaudience 4 (10)Dominate Person (10)Shadow Conjuration (11)Invisibility, Greater (13)Modify Memory (19)Dimension Door I see it's been a few days and you said you'd made some changes but I finally caught back up with this this thread and figured I'd make few of quick comments about some of the spells. The canonical Core form for alter self is the troglodyte. It gives +6 natural armor, as well as the claw/claw/bite routine, Multiattack (as a bonus feat), and a +4 bonus to Hide checks (+8 in rocky/underground settings) -- a racial skill bonus. Sing with me: "We represent the Lollipop Guild, the Lollipop Guild, the Lollipop Guild..." Though the temptation may be to "trade up" silent image to major image, you don't get THAT many spells per day. Sometimes you just want to do something quick and simple (silent image is great for illusions of incorporeal creatures, or static barriers: the "hiding behind an illusion" trick). The silent image gives you a lot of bang for your 1st level buck. If your sorcerer refuses to take identify, I guess you're stuck with it. Eh. It's not a terrible thing to take cure light wounds as a bard spell -- if nothing else, if you have any unused spell slots at the end of the day, you can burn them all as healing. Suggestion is a tough choice for bards -- on the one hand, you can already do it with bardsong, on the other hand, as you've pointed out, you can't really bardsong suggest during combat. Detect thoughts sounds awesome, and is a nice spell, but it's not trivial to use -- you have to cast it (which means you have to be careful if you want to use it in a social situation), maintain concentration for three rounds to get up to the mind-reading stage, and then your targets get Will saves. Don't get me wrong - if it really fits your character, and it sounds like it may well do, have fun with it. I suggested blindness and glitterdust for their generic ease of use in gameplay. I like confusion as a 3rd level bard spell because it is a pretty awesome spell, and it is also a useful in-combat spell... many of the other spells you have there are less so. (OK, blink, but that helps you but not the rest of your party.) I like the idea of shadow conjuration but I've never been able to sell myself on using it, if nothing else because of the extra Will save. If you'd really like to use this spell, I'd sit down with the PHB and make a list of conjurations you think you'd use with it (and wouldn't mind the extra shadow-Will save for). If you are about self-preservation (as evidenced by your choices of expeditious retreat, invisibility, blink) I would take dimension door a LOT earlier - probably as one of your first 4th level spells.
Super Guy 06-22-05, 11:53 PM	Want to know how to play a bard? His strength is in roleplaying! Take everyone else's advice on stats and whatever you want, but to use your bardic goodies to the max, you must roleplay. The wizard's strength is his magic, the fighter's is his sword. The bard's is the horde of followers that he has accumulated through deception or friendliness. Why not use diplomacy all the time? Chat up with locals, find city problems, put them to rest. Talk to the townsfolk and learn that the prices for grain are getting too high. Find out why! All kinds of things like this gain you fame and the love/admiration of people throughout the city. Your Diplomacy, Gather Info, Bluff, Sense Motive and perhaps one or two other skills are extremely useful, here. If you find it neccesary, sow discord in the townsfolk with rumors or lies about your enemy. They'll be sure to believe you, afterall. A great trick is Use Magic Device. What! Zombies are attacking the city, you say?! No problem, as you run out and quickly 'vanquish' the 'zombies'. That's right, illusory zombies. You're a hero for saving the lives of those threatened! No! You say bandits are attacking people in the woods! Whatever shall we do? Well, you, the bard, say "I'll take care of it" and immediately stop your raids in the woods. AND you return the stolen goods to those who lost them. The ladies will be swooning over your bravery for stopping the thieves. Only the Rogue can come close to rivaling the Bard in this area. But Rogues typically don't focus on purely being people friendly so Charisma isn't their highest score. They may not have all the skills, either. And they're obviously not going to be good at entertaining people like you are. A bard by himself is not powerful at all- nor is a wizard who can't cast spells or a fighter without a weapon. But, play a bard to his full potential, and he can easily become the force to be reckoned with. Oh, by the way... I would recommend Human for a bard. Most city inhabitants tend to be human, anyways. Also, more races find a human to be handsome than a halfling to be handsome. You're not going to get the ladies swooning and the men clapping and cheering for you if you're 3 feet tall.
Lacloix 06-23-05, 10:09 AM	Want to know how to play a bard? His strength is in roleplaying! Those are some pretty funny ideas. I will have to use them. I am sticking with a gnome, though. I've always liked halflings and gnomes (thanks to Dragonlance). Besides, Charisma isn't just about looks... The canonical Core form for alter self is the troglodyte. But I'll lose my armor bonus (as it becomes non-functional in the new form). With a Chain Shirt +1, I would be trading a +5 armor bonus for a +6 natural armor bonus. Detect thoughts sounds awesome, and is a nice spell, but it's not trivial to use... Even though my DM is all about PHB only, I'm pretty confident I can talk him into letting me take Disguise Spell from the complete adventurer. That will let me cast spells all the time and almost nobody would realize it. I'd sit down with the PHB and make a list of conjurations you think you'd use with it Already did. It's a pretty swiss army knife type of spell. However, I went through the spells again, and I realized the only ones I'd make much use out of would be Grease, Glitterdust, and a couple of combat spells. I think I would be better swapping it for Dimension Door and putting something else in that last slot...though I'm not sure what. If you are about self-preservation ... Very much so... Two of the members in the party are these really pushy jerks. If you don't do things their way, they don't help you out. Considering that one of them is a cleric, that can be a problem. The character I have now, which I'm trying to phase out (in the "Trying to Die" thread), was nearly killed in the last fight, and the cleric has done nothing to help heal him up. Not that I would care if the character died (as I'm trying to phase him out), but the character would mind. I'll be discussing them more in the "What we've got here is a failure to communicate..." thread. But yeah, this character is all about saving his own ass, especially considering he's the only person looking out for it.
cambric 06-23-05, 11:10 AM	Those are some pretty funny ideas. I will have to use them. I am sticking with a gnome, though. I've always liked halflings and gnomes (thanks to Dragonlance). Besides, Charisma isn't just about looks... :clap: Bravo! I love gnomes, as my sig says, I'm a member of the Gnome Foundation. I was disappointed that "bard" is the gnomes favorite class, but I'm having a great time playing a gnome bard now. There have been some great suggestions on this board that I'll be using. Good luck with your character and please keep us updated on how it goes. I feel bad for you with your group chemistry, that sucks they don't look out for you. I'm blessed, we have a great group, 6-7 of us that have been together for many years, and we work well together. Cam
devinmdp 06-23-05, 08:40 PM	I play a bard in Living Kalamar. We usually play at tables of 6 PCs. With 6 PCs a bard is an excellent part of the group, because you have all of the core bases covered and are now looking for a nice support person. What I like about my bard is that I can fill in the gaps in all situations. If the party is in a knock down melee, my 4th level bard with an AC of 22 and Dodge feat can come into the combat with a decent chance of surviving. I may be only +5 attack with my sword, but I help provide flanking for the rogues and fighters and can still hit a thing or two at CR 4-6. And I do this while giving my party the constant benefits of a Bless spell and a +1 to damage! On the other hand, if spell support is needed, I can be there too. A PC bleeding out and the party cleric too far away? No problem. I have a Cure Light Wounds spell ready to go at a moment's notice! Getting flanked by orcs? Try a little grease. Some big bad burly Ogre going to smash a PC? Uncontrollable Laughter will usually get the low Will types. That plus I am the group's spokesman and have enough skill points to handle the role of a secondary rogue. I LOVE playing a bard in this manner. I think bards are not useful or desirable for a 4 person party. But once you get to 5 or 6 people, they become really nice. Devin