Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JamesDruidDM 12-04-05, 03:32 PM	I was going to join a game a friend of mine is running, ll geared up for it, any race you wanted (I have the planar handbook so I was excited) and then I hear this, EVERYONE must play a CLERIC.....I hate clerics, so any rac but you must play a PHB cleric 4 people (PCs) all clerics. I asked him, why dont you let me play a pally, almost the smae thing (....shush....) and he says "No, I am playing the pally, a dragon disciple pally (radiant light dragon)... Anyway I guess my question is - would you join that game?
Gailbraithe 12-04-05, 03:44 PM	I was going to join a game a friend of mine is running, ll geared up for it, any race you wanted (I have the planar handbook so I was excited) and then I hear this, EVERYONE must play a CLERIC.....I hate clerics, so any rac but you must play a PHB cleric 4 people (PCs) all clerics. I asked him, why dont you let me play a pally, almost the smae thing (....shush....) and he says "No, I am playing the pally, a dragon disciple pally (radiant light dragon)... Anyway I guess my question is - would you join that game? The DM has a PC, and his PC is a Paladin, and the four PCs are clerics that I'm guessing play a support role to this paladin? First impression: That is not a camapign. That is a guy tricking his friends into playing out his own little power fantasy.
loaba 12-04-05, 03:47 PM	The DM has a PC, and his PC is a Paladin, and the four PCs are clerics that I'm guessing play a support role to this paladin? First impression: That is not a camapign. That is a guy tricking his friends into playing out his own little power fantasy. Aren't you the same guy who just got through saying that it's problem players who don't go along with the DM's campaign requirements? :rolleyes:
JamesDruidDM 12-04-05, 04:02 PM	Aren't you the same guy who just got through saying that it's problem players who don't go along with the DM's campaign requirements? :rolleyes: I may have (please post the thread) but I have never told my players EVER that they must play a class, especially a support class for the DMPC.
WayneTheGame 12-04-05, 04:11 PM	I may have (please post the thread) but I have never told my players EVER that they must play a class, especially a support class for the DMPC. *psst* loaba is talking to Gailbraithe, JamesDruidDM, not you See thread entitled "DM-Giving you your pc" :)
loaba 12-04-05, 04:16 PM	*psst* loaba is talking to Gailbraithe, JamesDruidDM, not you See thread entitled "DM-Giving you your pc" :) ^Bingo! JamesDruidDM - talk to your DM, see what he's trying to do. Also, ask him about the role of the DMPC Paladin in the party.
Appollyon 12-04-05, 04:53 PM	I was just going to say that sounds interesting, and yeah I would do it, then you told me about the DMPC. That was when I agreed with gailbraithe, dump this campaign. IMHO, all cleric campaign could be okay, you could have a cleric/thief , a cleric/fighter, a cleric/mage, etc. But i agree that it sounds like a personal powertrip.
loaba 12-04-05, 04:58 PM	For me, cardinal rule is, ask your players first! They're the ones who have to 'check off' on the setting, or there is no point in playing the game.
BoringInfoGuy 12-04-05, 05:15 PM	Honestly, I don't like sitting down at the table to begin to begin a new game, just to hear the DM start with "You all must play x class, x race, x alignments etc." Am I completely against specific games like the all cleric idea? No (ignoring the powertripping DMPC). But I don't like having them sprung on me when I get to the table. Like every player, I suspect, I have one or more character concepts that I've been wanting to try. These specific class games almost always automaticly make any concepts the players may have invalidated. It can also force players to play a character that doesn't really interest them. Again using this all cleric example, if you were the party cleric in the last game, then you would have been looking forward to playing a different class. Before coming up with a campaign like this, the DM really should talk the idea over with his players. Explain the concept, why he thinks it would be fun, how long the campaign could last, what type of encounters you'll face, and so on. It's the difference between hearing "How do you like the idea of. . . ," versus "You must play. . ." My advice is to skip this game. It sounds like a DM power trip.
Black Kitten 12-04-05, 05:37 PM	Well, Somehow this does has a certain appeal to me, since faith-motivated characters are always interesting. Our group also often comes together and decide the spectrum of alignment we play, for example (to avoid a CN Rogue and a LG Paladin, etc, etc). However, I doubt this will be the end of it, since a Paladin is NEVER just a front-liner... It's always more, solution is to beat the Pally at what he does... but seeing he's the DMPC...
Gailbraithe 12-04-05, 05:56 PM	Aren't you the same guy who just got through saying that it's problem players who don't go along with the DM's campaign requirements? :rolleyes: No, I said it's problem player who throw hissy fits when they find out that a DM has campaign requirements. But this is consistent with your pattern of twisting other's words. It all comes down to WHY a DM has set up a campaign a certain way. The way this guy has set this campaign, it sounds like he's railroading the PCs to make his DMPC the primary or spotlighted character. That's obnoxious. it's one thing to say "I, as DM, want to explore these kinds of story through the game." and saying "", as DM, want to star in these kinds of story through the game."
loaba 12-04-05, 06:06 PM	No, I said it's problem player who throw hissy fits when they find out that a DM has campaign requirements. And how is this any different? Are you not the penultimate proponent for the DM's will? I mean, this is his setting right? He's worked hard on this campaign. It all comes down to WHY a DM has set up a campaign a certain way. And honestly, what do either of us know about the how or the why of this campaign? The way this guy has set this campaign, it sounds like he's railroading the PCs to make his DMPC the primary or spotlighted character. Yeah, how do you come to that conclussion? I mean, I tend to agree that Paly's are not background characters usually, but really, where is your evidence? What has clued you in? it's one thing to say "I, as DM, want to explore these kinds of story through the game." and saying "", as DM, want to star in these kinds of story through the game." What's the difference, if the DM doesn't listen to his players (and take into account what they might like) in the first place?
Feor 12-04-05, 10:33 PM	First thing: Pick up "Complete Divine" and ask him if he'll let you go with Favoured Soul. It's like a Divine Sorcerer. Cast without preparation, and automatically get proficiency with diety's weapon (plus focus & specialization at higher levels) but no domain spells, knows a limited number of spells, & can't turn undead. Second thing: Give the campaign a try, If it's a serious campaign, it might be fun. If you start getting the impression it realy is a power trip for the GM, conspire with your fellow players to concentrate on something other than helping the Pally next fight (or better yet, turn on the Pally during said fight) and see what happens. You are clerics, worst comes to worse you can always revive him after. And if it turns out you don't like the game, just stop going. It's just a game, you're not signing a contract that says you'll play till the DM says otherwise. :P
Gailbraithe 12-04-05, 11:05 PM	And how is this any different? Are you not the penultimate proponent for the DM's will? I mean, this is his setting right? He's worked hard on this campaign. I don't know what issues you're working through, but stop attacking me. You're acting like an immature jerk. When you decide to stop twisting everything I say into something completely indefensible, then I will deign to speak to you again. Until then, consider yourself ignored.
Wizards_White_Knight 12-04-05, 11:25 PM	I don't know what issues you're working through, but stop attacking me. You're acting like an immature jerk. When you decide to stop twisting everything I say into something completely indefensible, then I will deign to speak to you again. Until then, consider yourself ignored. Just...off topic for a second. And this isn't a personal attack, because I agree with you totally. He is being childish. But doesn't it defeat the purpose when you have to tell someone that you are going to ignore them? Just an observation that has been nettling me on these boards. WWK
epifreak 12-05-05, 12:10 AM	I notice that clericdom is required, but he neglected to mention anything about alignment. If you're starting at a high enough level to afford an amulet of undetectible alignment/misdirection (better choice), play a cleric of some opposing deity who's along to foil the PCs' plans, play along until that critical moment, then turn on them. Great way to throw a wrench in such a DM's proverbial works. Just make sure to leave the alignment and deity section blank on your char. sheet b/c people tend to peek.
IceFractal 12-05-05, 01:08 AM	Heh - if you really want to play, but are ticked off by this guy's power trip - then make a Cleric, and make it a better Paladin than his Paladin. Paladins do both combat and spellcasting, but a Cleric can potential be better than them at both of those. So do so, and then see how he likes being just another team member instead of the star of the show. Warning: He may just blatantly cheat to reestablish his Paladin's superiority.
DrMorganes 12-05-05, 01:26 AM	I was thinking, "hm. Interesting campaign concept. Could be fun," right up to the bit where we get to the DMPC. Would I join? No. Not even if he paid me.
Gailbraithe 12-05-05, 03:13 AM	Just...off topic for a second....doesn't it defeat the purpose when you have to tell someone that you are going to ignore them? When I said that, I forgot that this forum has an ignore feature. I'm new. When I said I was going to ignore him, I meant I was going to ignore him the old fashioned, non-technological way.
Millennium 12-05-05, 06:52 AM	Ordinarily, I would say to go along with it anyway. Hating an entire class isn't reasonable, even if you don't like to fulfill certain party roles: There are many ways to play clerics other than the stereotypes. However, the bit about the DM getting a dragon-disciple paladin gives me pause. As others have mentioned, this sounds like less of a campaign and more of a personal DM fantasy that he wants a few other thinly-veiled assistants in, despite the fact that he railroads everything to fulfill his own wishes. Get out of this while you still can, or at least insist that the DM follow his own character restrictions.
mcmurphy510 12-05-05, 07:13 AM	I'm not really sure why everyone is so down on this poor DM. It may be very true that he is power-tripping here, but really there is no evidence of that. The OP really has not given any details about the DMPC other than race and class. From those two pieces of info it's a big jump to say that the DMs gonna railroad. Weather or not to join the game depends on the DM. Do you trust him to not railroad you and to not steal the thunder of the party? Or is he the kind of guy who always has to be the center of attention? And does this DM (in your estimation) have a good chance of making the game (as described to you) fun for you and the other players (and himself)?
Kalrin 12-05-05, 08:26 AM	I was thinking, "hm. Interesting campaign concept. Could be fun," right up to the bit where we get to the DMPC. Would I join? No. Not even if he paid me. FWIW I agree with the Good Doctor
Millennium 12-05-05, 11:12 AM	I'm not really sure why everyone is so down on this poor DM. It may be very true that he is power-tripping here, but really there is no evidence of that. The OP really has not given any details about the DMPC other than race and class. From those two pieces of info it's a big jump to say that the DMs gonna railroad. The DM is allowing himself a race and class which he's not allowing to the players. Furthermore, this race/class combination is going to be significantly more powerful than the PCs at the same level, and it's a cliched "paladin descended from the powers of Light" concept. Furthermore, he doesn't even have the basic requirements of his PrC right; Dragon Disciples require the ability to cast arcane spells without preparation, and paladins do neither. What hallmarks of a bad, railroad-laden DM's-personal-fantasy campaign aren't there? If I were to hand you a description of a fanfiction laced with spelling and grammatical errors, an "original character" who happens to have the same name as the author, and the title "My Adventures with the Cast", would you go on and read the story? This campaign setup is the D&D equivalent of such a description.
simon_tage 12-05-05, 01:42 PM	Would I play in this? I guess it depends on if I thought that the group would be fun. If it was my regualr group then yes I would, despite the obvious potential issues. If it was a group I had never played with then probably not.
Twisted Puppy 12-05-05, 04:35 PM	For me, cardinal rule is, ask your players first! They're the ones who have to 'check off' on the setting, or there is no point in playing the game. I'm just curious... how many times have you followed this "cardinal rule?"
Twisted Puppy 12-05-05, 04:48 PM	If the paladin is hanging around with the PCs on a regular basis, I'd be leary of joining the campaign. The info in the OP is limited, though. It may be that the Pal/DD is merely the head of whatever order or alliance the clerics are members of and assigns them missions. Not enough info to say yea or nay. Nor in this case do we know much about the players. Is it a group where no one ever plays a cleric, and the DM is doing this to get them all to at least give it a try? As usual on the boards, there really isn't enough info to base a decision on. While I think an ally (NPC more or less permanently attached to the party, as per the DMG - I dislike the term DMPC) can be played well, I have to agree with Galbraithe that this one doesn't look good. If the DM is going to have a long term NPC hanging around, he should be under the same restrictions as the PCs, unless he is going to be a lower-level spear carrier/cabana boy. The objective is not to show up the PCs.
loaba 12-05-05, 05:00 PM	I'm just curious... how many times have you followed this "cardinal rule?" Each and every time we start a new party or campaign. I always ask the players what they want to do, the game is about them after all.
Xanthia 12-05-05, 05:19 PM	Make a Cleric of Hextor. Pretend to be a Cleric of Hieronius. Betray the Paladin (killing him if possible) and laugh at the DM.
Wizards_White_Knight 12-05-05, 07:03 PM	When I said that, I forgot that this forum has an ignore feature. I'm new. When I said I was going to ignore him, I meant I was going to ignore him the old fashioned, non-technological way. Im not refering to the ignore feature though. It's like a children's playground. Teh little girl runs up to the little boy "I don't like you anymore and I am not talking to you". Defeats teh whole purpose doesn't it? If you are going to ignore someone, you pointedly refuse to acknowledge them.
Tiran 12-05-05, 11:36 PM	If it was a friend, I'd probably give it a shot. If it was say, an online campaign I was looking to join, I'd skip it.
Ekranoplan 12-05-05, 11:57 PM	Im not refering to the ignore feature though. It's like a children's playground. Teh little girl runs up to the little boy "I don't like you anymore and I am not talking to you". Defeats teh whole purpose doesn't it? If you are going to ignore someone, you pointedly refuse to acknowledge them. Many people feel the need to inform the person though. If someone informs you they are going to ignore you, its really just a last ditch attempt to try and "win" in this series of debates.
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-06-05, 12:18 AM	If you are going to ignore someone, you pointedly refuse to acknowledge them. It never hurts to point out that you're ignoring a stalking poster. It may not be allowed by the CoC, but it does give the other posters a heads up that someon'e s a problem. As to the OP: It isn't uncommon for DMs to run an all 'x' campaign; all elves, all monks, whatever. It is a red flag, however that his DMPC (not the fact he has one, that's fine as long as he plays it right) is clearly not being built according to the rules the other players have to build with. Further, doesn't the DD require arcane casting?
JamesDruidDM 12-07-05, 04:29 PM	I'm not really sure why everyone is so down on this poor DM. It may be very true that he is power-tripping here, but really there is no evidence of that. The OP really has not given any details about the DMPC other than race and class. From those two pieces of info it's a big jump to say that the DMs gonna railroad. Weather or not to join the game depends on the DM. Do you trust him to not railroad you and to not steal the thunder of the party? Or is he the kind of guy who always has to be the center of attention? And does this DM (in your estimation) have a good chance of making the game (as described to you) fun for you and the other players (and himself)? I appologize I should have spelled this out ALL PCs, level 1 cleric any race (that cleric from the PHB) The DMPC is a 6th level Radiantdragon Disciple Pally I dont know the premis of the campaign I oppted not to play
ZybthRanger314 12-07-05, 05:16 PM	I oppted not to play Sounds like the safest choice you could make. I hope for the sake of the other players that when he says DMPC he means NPC, which is somewhat understandable. In the last campaign I DMed, I had a neat NPC that I really liked, and everyone said that it was my character in the campaign.
Feor 12-07-05, 08:13 PM	Like I said before, I would have gone at least a couple times. It is a game, if you weren't having fun you coulda just stopped going.
surlykke 12-15-05, 02:22 PM	I am actually facing the same problems myself. After some downtime with our campaign, our DM wanted to start up with a new adventure and he then decided that we couldn't choose our classes our selves. He then asked me if i wanted to become a sorcerer, i kinda agreed, convinced him that i could build my PC to become a arcane archer. I then wanted to multiclass a Sor/fighter, taking fighter at 1st, to get the hp, but ohh no, it didn't fit into his plans! His reasons for obtaining total control is that he has planned a great story and such, which just worries me even more. Is there any freedom in this campaign or is it just his desire to tell a great story to his friends ? I am still thinking about quiting and start my own campaign, just to show him!!
Millennium 12-15-05, 02:26 PM	ALL PCs, level 1 cleric any race (that cleric from the PHB) The DMPC is a 6th level Radiantdragon Disciple Pally I dont know the premis of the campaign I oppted not to play Ah; if that's it, then the premise of the campaign is easy to figure out: a power-tripping DM fantasy, just like most of the people here predicted. You dodged a bullet -or at least an arrow of slaying- by staying out of this one. Good move.
shmeck 12-15-05, 03:20 PM	EVERYONE must play a CLERIC that's bull :twocents:
Shirosai 12-15-05, 04:20 PM	Hm... Any race? Paragon Beholder Cleric of Destruction... Hehehe.
Senevri 12-15-05, 05:16 PM	Go, Team Cleric! ^___^ Actually, not a bad idea, everyone playing Strongest Base Class... However, DMPC == Bad.
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-15-05, 08:18 PM	DMPC == Bad. Not true.
Gailbraithe 12-15-05, 09:49 PM	His reasons for obtaining total control is that he has planned a great story and such, which just worries me even more. Is there any freedom in this campaign or is it just his desire to tell a great story to his friends? Is this an open-ended campaign, or a mini-campaign, or a one-shot? It can be very fun to play a full or partially pregenerated PC in a plot-driven mini-campaign or one-shot. Playing a full or partially pregenerated PC in a plot-driven open-ended campaign is rarely fun. Generally that indicates a wanna-be novelist, and can be very frustrating. If the DM believes there is a script, or demands the character have certain personality traits (beyond alignment restrictions), then this can become incredibly frustrating. Because you aren't playing your character, your playing the DM's character - and you're probably playing it "wrong". In an open-ended campaign, the DM should not be placing requirements on the PC's class, race, alignment, personality, and most importantly goals. Open-ended campaigns are powered by the player's pursuit of their goals. Open-ended campaigns It is acceptable for a DM to place restrictions on the players, to limit them to a range of classes and races that are setting and genre appropriate, but not requirements. Generally, the rule of thumb is the longer the campaign intends to run, the less restrictions there should be. It's perfectly fine for a DM to say "Create a 2nd level human or half-elf sorceror of lawful good alignment. He must have at least 2 ranks in Religion." if the campaign is a one-shot. In such a case, then generally the whole campaign is one short story (the example character might be for a story involving a coven of adepts who must uncover the mystery of their master's dissapearance). Even then though, the DM needs to provide mutliple avenues to resolve the story. Likewise, it's okay for a DM to have a specific story in mind, and run a plot-driven mini-campaign. I once ran a great campaign that required all the PCs to be adventurers from a small isolated kingdom. Every adventure was a differently themed dungeon created by the wild magic of an insane archmage who had set his sights on destroying the country. The players were limited in their goals - the only goal was to destroy the dungeons, uncover the archmage, and kill him. There wasn't any real place for exploring character goals. But the campaign was also quite short, and the players were allowed to create more or less any type of character they wanted (everything that was core 2nd Ed. at least). But DMs who want players to play specific characters in a specific storylineare wanna-be novelists, and should be avoided til they realize that writing stories for gaming is entirely different than writing stories for novels. Stories for gaming have to be event and site oriented, not plot or character driven. Open ended campaigns have no "plot", and the players determine the character-driven stories by playing their characters. I am still thinking about quiting and start my own campaign, just to show him!! Do it! DMing, when you have good players and know what you're doing, is one of the most enjoyable experiences there is.
ranger danger 12-15-05, 10:24 PM	go evil cleric. ^_^
imperialjunkie 12-15-05, 10:37 PM	Not true. True if the situation clearly reveals a DM who wants to upstage the players as this case seems to be. True if the DM is inexperienced. Not true if you have an experienced DM who has the players' best interests at heart and in mind.
Gailbraithe 12-15-05, 10:54 PM	Not true. True. The DM has plenty of characters already. He has NPCs - good, bad, somewhere in-between - and he has monsters. The DM does not need a PC under any circumstances. If the party is understrengthed, the DM can add (and play) a subordinate NPC, but the DM should never play a PC that the other PCs must treat as an equal. It presents a clear conflict of interest, and pointlessly steals thunder from the PCs. The DM is incapable of really challenging himself as a player, and thus simply should not play.
amethal 12-16-05, 05:28 AM	In an ideal world, the DM says "I have had a really good idea for an all-cleric campaign. Are you guys interested?" This may be what has happened here - enough players were interested, so the campaign went ahead. Some people weren't interested, so gave it a miss. I don't have a problem with this, and I like the idea of trying an all-cleric campaign. What I don't like is that the DM is going to play a paladin. Ideally, he should explained that his idea also requires a paladin in the party, so could one of the players please play one. What I really don't like is this paladin is apparently significantly higher level than the rest of the party. I'd have declined to play at that point, regardless of whether he was played by a player or the DM. If I'm going to play as someone's cohort, its going to be because it fits in with an interesting character concept I've come up with, not because the DM wants me to.
Good Agnostic 12-16-05, 02:00 PM	6th level DMPC and four 1st level PC's? I concur with the general consensus that this is a DM powertrip. Overall, I wouldn't refuse to play just because of a class restriction. But the uber DMPC here is a huge red flag. Ask the other three players what kind of campaign they would like to play in. Then set up your DM screen and have at it.