Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JarionSilverblades 12-06-07, 07:30 AM	In an upcoming campaign, my DM has told his player that they HAVE TO play a home-brewed human sub-race they created. These sub-races are unplaytested, unbalanced, and just unplayable. Also he has created several base classes using some 250 point system he found somewhere online. Again all are Un-playtested, unbalanced, and kinda limited in there scope. How can I get through to the DM that forcing people a sub-race and/or class, is only going to ruin the player's fun?
DyloniusFunk 12-06-07, 07:51 AM	Step 1: Sit your DM down before the game. Tell him/her that while you appreciate thier creativity, you don't wish to be told what kind of character you have to play and don't feel like the races they amde fit your character idea. Remind them that your character is the only part of the game world you get to control while the DM controls everything else so you should get full say in what kind of character you make, as long as it falls with the DMs guidelines. DM's can limit splatbooks, they can't force you to choose a certain race or class. Step 2: If this dosen't work, talk to the other players. See if they have an issue with it. if they do see if one of them wants to run a game or play in a game you would be willing to run Step 3: if they don't care and the DM dosen't change his ways, quit. Honestly it's hard to tell without mroe info, but just this scream control freak DM to me. Just remember, no D&D> Bad D&D
serow_#R 12-06-07, 10:11 AM	Have you actually tried all that stuff out? Maybe it might play better than it reads. Maybe the others might like it too. Otherwise, they would join you in protesting.
Belkar 12-06-07, 10:23 AM	Give us some detail here. What are the features of the race? And the classes? Aside from those restrictions, do you have any others? What published materials are available for use (for feats and such...)? I say - let us help you find a way to make you a broken build with this new classes/race. Thus breaking your DM. Thus teaching him never to do something so stupid ever again! :D
Krusk 12-06-07, 10:49 AM	Tell the DM, "hey as long as i have to be these things im probably going to sit this game out, it dosn't sound very fun." If it is as bad as you say the game wont even start. Perhapse you could suggest that he offer his races/classes as options not mandates? This does sound like a railroad type DM, of the type "all orcs are smelly, all elves are hot chicks or gay". I probably wouldn't play in it. Question though, is the DM attempting to playtest his houserules with your group?
Man in the Funny Hat 12-07-07, 02:24 AM	In an upcoming campaign, my DM has told his player that they HAVE TO play a home-brewed human sub-race they created. These sub-races are unplaytested, unbalanced, and just unplayable. Also he has created several base classes using some 250 point system he found somewhere online. Again all are Un-playtested, unbalanced, and kinda limited in there scope. How can I get through to the DM that forcing people a sub-race and/or class, is only going to ruin the player's fun?Unless he's holding a gun at your head, a knife to your throat, or incriminating photographs you're not being forced to do a bloody thing. You are AGREEING to the silly restrictions and open playtest format he is setting for participation in the game he's going to run. Or not. It's your choice to play. Voice your objections and whatever you convince him to do or not, you choose to either participate or find something else to do. Once you agree you lose most of the right to complain about what you agreed to - unless he's going to turn over the negatives when the campaign is done.
eamon 12-07-07, 06:16 AM	Sometimes DM-s want to try something different. Tell him you're worried that the game will be less fun if the races are too limiting or too unbalanced. If you're willing to play and give constructive criticism, he'll probably be willing to have a reevaluation point after a few sessions. Ideally, you'd agree when beforehand, and then fix things in stone. If you don't want to explore this concept, maybe it's because you're worried that the DM has expansive ideas about his world - ideas in which PC's don't necessarily fit well. The core concept that you're running a role-playing adventure shouldn't be changed, and that means your characters should have a clear role to fill. Ask him what that is. If heroes are heroes, monsters are monsters, and quests are quests - then why not try something new? If you really don't want to, then don't play, or only play a guest NPC role to try it out (if the DM is willing). It's not necessarily a problem that his races aren't playtested - everything new isn't, and it's certainly possible to make reasonable judgements beforehand. Playtesting is just a good sanity check, a finishing touch, not a starting point.
JarionSilverblades 12-07-07, 08:09 AM	I've offered to help him playtest his sub-races. He feels that they are fine and don't need to be playtested. Examples. Human sub-race *+1 Str, Dex, Con, and Cha *+4 skill points first level. * Bonus feat (must be from fighter bonus feats) * +2 any 5 skills * languages: Common and any 2 other, bonus languages any. Class: Assassin HD: 10 Base Attack: Good Base Saves: (Fort and Reflex) good Skill points: 8+Int mod 1) Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, +10 movement 2) Sudden Strike, Trap finding +1 3) Bonus Feat, Evasion 4) Sneak attack, Insightful strike 5) Sudden Strike, Trap finding +2 6) Bonus Feat, AC bonus +1 and it just keeps going like this.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-07-07, 09:47 AM	While that subrace and that class would be wonky in a regular game, this obviously isn't a regular game. Most gamers can't help but feel suspicious of house rules, but it is possible that this guy actually knows what he is doing and these homebrew races and classes will work great with each other. I'm not saying that you shouldn't take his word without a grain of salt, but what could it hurt to try a session with his homebrew stuff? Is your time really that precious to you? Even if he claims that his rules don't need playtesting, that is effectively what you would be doing if you played in this game.
JarionSilverblades 12-07-07, 10:05 AM	This is his first time as DM, and has only been playing for about 8 months. I've been DMing for sometime and have offered to help him out, he just doesn't want any help. He created these Classes and Races using a point system he found on another site. I've tried to explain to him that for his first time he should stick to the basics. PHB, DMG, and MM, but he wants to use anything and everything he can.
UAMDB 12-07-07, 10:06 AM	Look at it as more of you are play testing things for him. Also as stated before you are not being forced to play. If you decide to play you just have to follow the rules set down by the DM. You can veto his rules by not playing. I have sat out several games, because I did not like the house rules that I would have had to play by. The person running had no hard feelings, and we still are good friends.
UAMDB 12-07-07, 10:14 AM	This is his first time as DM, and has only been playing for about 8 months. I've been DMing for sometime and have offered to help him out, he just doesn't want any help. He created these Classes and Races using a point system he found on another site. I've tried to explain to him that for his first time he should stick to the basics. PHB, DMG, and MM, but he wants to use anything and everything he can. Sometimes people learn best by failure. Did your first time DM work smoothly? IF not, did you learn what not to do and what to do? Let him go through with this idea of his. One of two things will happen. 1) It will be a broken game and he will either adjust things and start over/cancel the idea, OR 2) It will be a lot of fun. Either way the DM will learn something and hopefully it will help him to become a better DM for future games. Also please don't fall into the trap of a first time DM should only use core. A DM should only allow what they feel they are capable of handling. There are many factors that deterimine this. Age of the DM, how long they have been a player, how long the players have been playing, and the intelligence of the DM. I have seen first time DM's use core only and screw it up very badly. I also have seen first time DM's allow everything under the sun it have no problems what so ever.
JarionSilverblades 12-07-07, 10:20 AM	The DM is 22 yo. and has been playing D&D for about 8 months. The thing is I've been DMing for almost 2 years non-stop, this is the first chance I've gotten to play a regular PC in that time if I sit out then I miss out on a chance to play, I don't have the benefit of having several gaming groups to choose from. And this DM would take it personally, and act like a spoiled child. Oh and I keep forgetting to mention it, He's basing the Campaign on Assassin's Creed.
Belkar 12-07-07, 11:51 AM	And this DM would take it personally, and act like a spoiled child. Oh and I keep forgetting to mention it, He's basing the Campaign on Assassin's Creed. Lord. [sigh] Dude, looking at this "race" and "class" he created - um... you'll pretty much be making a munchkin character no matter what. One of Two things will happen. 1. You all will pwn the game horribly - because he's too inexperienced to realize what he's doing - and he'll get pissy and act like a spoiled child for having his game wrecked. He'll probably follow that up with some reactionary power-DMing that enforces strange house rules that previously were not mentioned, which now gimp you horribly - or he'll throw things at you that you really can't handle. OR... 2. He will compensate for your "power" and throw impossible encounters/monsters at you - which you can keep pace with, damage-wise, but not on HP, DR, SR, or the special attacks/spells it will have. The party will get pwned, and then get pissy and upset. The DM will either respond like a spoiled child in retaliation, and end the game - or, he'll get upset with himself (and frustrated with you all) and try to salvage his mess of a game by bringing up strange house rules that previously were not mentioned, which now boost you (or gimp him) horribly - or he'll throw pidly things at you that you can slaughter with ease. Meh. This is a bad idea... :tantrum:
RobbyPants 12-07-07, 12:31 PM	This is his first time as DM, and has only been playing for about 8 months. I've been DMing for sometime and have offered to help him out, he just doesn't want any help. He created these Classes and Races using a point system he found on another site. I've tried to explain to him that for his first time he should stick to the basics. PHB, DMG, and MM, but he wants to use anything and everything he can. Agreed. I think far too many people feel they have a grasp on things when they don't. I used to house-rule the hell out of 2nd edition. When 3E came out, I vowed to run the first campaign strictly RAW, no house-rules whatsoever. I wanted to get a good idea for what worked and what didn't, with the rules as sort of a "control group". If you run an experiement, you can't change several variables between each itteration. If you do, then you have no way to tell which one(s) caused the change. If your DM refuses to run things as normal, then either leave the game, or play in it. Sometimes, the best way to show someone that there rules are broken is to abuse the hell out of them. This is often how I approach things on the Unearthed Arcana boards when someone proposes a new house-rule. Two important questions to ask yourself up front before creating a new rule: Is it necessary? Will it fix a problem? Will it cause more problems than it solved? Can it be abused? Okay, that was four questions, but still, the first three are kind of lumped together. I'm assuming your DM thinks that he needs to make these rules to have a better game. Now the question is, are they abusable? That's usually the first thing I look at when someone tells me about their new rules.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-07-07, 02:35 PM	The thing is I've been DMing for almost 2 years non-stop, this is the first chance I've gotten to play a regular PC in that time if I sit out then I miss out on a chance to play, I don't have the benefit of having several gaming groups to choose from. Well this game's life expectancy is getting shorter by the post. It looks like you have a hard decision to make; do you vote with your feet and find another hobby until this guy's game in all likelihood collapses or do you jump off the cliff so that you can help him pick up the pieces when the game shatters on the rocks below? As has been mentioned, many people learn best by experience and everyone learns something from falling flat on their face. The question is when this game is over do you want to ask this guy "So how did your game go?" or do you want to say "Good first try, dude, you'll get better with practice."?
Man in the Funny Hat 12-10-07, 01:17 AM	The DM is 22 yo. and has been playing D&D for about 8 months. The thing is I've been DMing for almost 2 years non-stop, this is the first chance I've gotten to play a regular PC in that time if I sit out then I miss out on a chance to play, I don't have the benefit of having several gaming groups to choose from.One of the things I often harp on - I mean REALLY get angry about - is DM's who try to run their players characters for them. DM's just don't have that privilege, much less a right to do so. The reverse is also true. Players don't run the game. DM's do. You've offered to provide help and advice and your offer has been politely declined. So do the right thing and with a last polite warning that there is a potential for undesired things to happen, shut up and play. Yes, it's unfortunate that your first playing opportunity after a long spell has to be with a DM who seems bent on engineering a train wreck. I would be just as frustrated. Who wouldn't? But since you KNOW you don't have other options the best course of action open to you is to make the best of it. And making the best of it is NOT done by grabbing the throttle and TRYING to wreck the train. Take it as a roleplaying challenge to use what influence you DO have through the roleplaying of your character to help the game flourish. And this DM would take it personally, and act like a spoiled child.It's HIS campaign and you're trying to tell him that he MUST run his game according to YOUR rules, not his. While a mature DM shouldn't take that personally or act spoiled he WOULD have every reason to be upset with you - if you keep pushing. You've fought the good fight and you're probably feeling disrespected for not having your greater experience given what you think would be proper consideration. But there comes a time when PLAYERS need to shut up and just play. Oh and I keep forgetting to mention it, He's basing the Campaign on Assassin's Creed.Means nothing to me. Is that a book? Video game? Did YOU enjoy it? If not, well then you should be telling the DM that the basis for his campaign is already NOT enjoyable. If so, then as an experienced gamer you should not have that much difficulty finding something you like about the campaign that you can hang your hat on.
CCS 12-10-07, 05:47 PM	This is his first time as DM, and has only been playing for about 8 months. I've been DMing for sometime and have offered to help him out, he just doesn't want any help. He created these Classes and Races using a point system he found on another site. I've tried to explain to him that for his first time he should stick to the basics. PHB, DMG, and MM, but he wants to use anything and everything he can. So he's a brand new DM. So he's refused your offer of help. So he's got some strange ideas he wants to try out.... So what? The worst thing that'll happen is you play this stuff for a few weeks/levels, find it doesn't suit the group, and start a new campaign. With a different DM. Oh, and you complain about it not being playtested. Well, who exactly would you want it playtested by? Since you seem so sure of everything, why aren't you answering that question with "Myself"? Afterall, who knows what'll suit you better than yourself? The way I see it, you really only have two choices concerning the coming game; 1) View yourself as the play-test guine pig, play & try & make the best of it, possibly using your greater experience to affect some positive changes. Or 2) Don't play & find something else to do for a few weeks.
CCS 12-10-07, 05:56 PM	DM's can limit splatbooks, they can't force you to choose a certain race or class. The hell I can't.... I can limit you to using only the PHB, then ban/limit various races & classes found within it. Pretty soon I can have a system where there's no 1/2breeds, all gnomes are barbarians, there's no such thing as sorcerers, etc etc etc. And if you agree to play, you'll be following those restrictions.
Mock26 12-10-07, 06:34 PM	How do you know it is unbalanced if it hasn't been playtested? Unclose your mind and do yourself and your DM a favor and be his guinea pigs for his world and such. Give it your best go and then give him creative criticism in your most polite manner. Help him out! Just be sure to have an open mind about it. If you prejudge it then chances are you won't have any fun, but in that case one can never truly know if the lack of fun was because of the DM's changes or the player's refusual to be open minded about it. "Argue for your limitations and sure enough they will be yours." And, how do you know you won't enjoy his game if you haven't played in it? Open your mind and give it a whirl!
deathbane 12-10-07, 06:42 PM	I've offered to help him playtest his sub-races. He feels that they are fine and don't need to be playtested. Examples. Human sub-race *+1 Str, Dex, Con, and Cha *+4 skill points first level. * Bonus feat (must be from fighter bonus feats) * +2 any 5 skills * languages: Common and any 2 other, bonus languages any. Class: Assassin HD: 10 Base Attack: Good Base Saves: (Fort and Reflex) good Skill points: 8+Int mod 1) Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, +10 movement 2) Sudden Strike, Trap finding +1 3) Bonus Feat, Evasion 4) Sneak attack, Insightful strike 5) Sudden Strike, Trap finding +2 6) Bonus Feat, AC bonus +1 and it just keeps going like this. You can sit out, or take this over powered character and lay the smacketh down. Some people have to learn the hard way. Maybe he is one of those people. I don't know him personally, so I don't know if the will say you took advantage of him, or take it as a learning experience, and stick to the basics until he is ready for more.
KillerVole 12-10-07, 07:17 PM	Also he has created several base classes using some 250 point system he found somewhere online. Again all are Un-playtested, unbalanced, and kinda limited in there scope. I know the system referenced; it actually works pretty well. That said, it relies on a lot of DM judgment calls, and your DM apparently didn't do too well with them. The basis, "Assassin's Creed", is a video game. My brother freaked out about it, and fell in love with it. I've never played it (I'm not a video gamer of any sort), but, in my experience, video game mechanics don't mix with D&D. Your best bet is to talk with him, and explain your concerns. Then, give the game a try. Who knows. Everyone could be surprised. If it doesn't work, tell the DM, and see if you can fix things. If not, you'll have to decide whether to keep playing, or quit his group.
JarionSilverblades 12-10-07, 08:45 PM	I know the system referenced; it actually works pretty well. That said, it relies on a lot of DM judgment calls, and your DM apparently didn't do too well with them. The basis, "Assassin's Creed", is a video game. My brother freaked out about it, and fell in love with it. I've never played it (I'm not a video gamer of any sort), but, in my experience, video game mechanics don't mix with D&D. Your best bet is to talk with him, and explain your concerns. Then, give the game a try. Who knows. Everyone could be surprised. If it doesn't work, tell the DM, and see if you can fix things. If not, you'll have to decide whether to keep playing, or quit his group. I have talked to him, and I told him that most DMs have trouble turning Video games into D&D campaigns. I also told him that the basic stroyline of Assassin's Creed would make a good starting point for a campaign.
Sinfire Titan 12-10-07, 09:58 PM	I have talked to him, and I told him that most DMs have trouble turning Video games into D&D campaigns. I also told him that the basic stroyline of Assassin's Creed would make a good starting point for a campaign. I don't, mofo! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=951512)
pmurray@bigpond.com 12-10-07, 10:05 PM	FWIW, I'll second everyone else's answer. Just play the game, dammit - I rather suspect you would prefer not to walk. Why not - I dunno - roleplay? If everyone has to play the same race, why not roll up some personality quirks from Unearthed Arcana, and play them - even without the mechanical adjustments? Have a beer! Chill! Have another beer, if the first one didn't work. Go with the flow. PS: someone whose sig has about a dozen hombrewed races, classes, etc etc has no business whinging about someone else inflicting the same sort of nonsense on them.
JarionSilverblades 12-10-07, 10:16 PM	Have a beer! Chill! Have another beer, if the first one didn't work. Go with the flow. PS: someone whose sig has about a dozen hombrewed races, classes, etc etc has no business whinging about someone else inflicting the same sort of nonsense on them. First: I don't drink, I'm to ****ed up sober. Second: Ya, I have a lot of Home-brewed stuff, but I've playtested all of it and posted it to get help balancing, the New DM hasn't done any of that.
KillerVole 12-10-07, 10:18 PM	I would assume that this is your DM: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=964285 I would try the game once, and then see if he'll let you play a non-homebrewed class, if you really want it. Of course, from what I've heard about the class in question, you will be WAY underpowered playing anything else, but if you really want to, he should try to accommodate you, if you've given his system a try.
Totentanz 12-10-07, 10:42 PM	See, I love these threads. Jarion, it sounds to me like you came to this board looking to be made unhappy. You have a DM that you don't respect. Anyone can tell that by reading your posts. Whenever someone suggests that you just give it a try, even to break his game, you just throw out more negatives. So that doesn't work for you. However, you want to play because you don't often get to play. But, you don't want to play in the game the DM is running. Yes, that's right, the DM does indeed determine the game. The problem here is regardless you are going to end up being unhappy. YOU, not the DM, has left you with no options. You have already talked to your DM, and he has said he wants to run this campaign his way. Odd that rather than the campaign you want, he is running the one he wants. If you want to be a player, then either play in his game or start looking online and at game shops for more groups. You can also just wait around for the game to crumble; sounds like it won't take long. Oh, and you don't help your case calling him a "spoiled child" when you are the one wanting him to change his game.
JarionSilverblades 12-11-07, 07:02 AM	See, I love these threads. Jarion, it sounds to me like you came to this board looking to be made unhappy. You have a DM that you don't respect. Anyone can tell that by reading your posts. Whenever someone suggests that you just give it a try, even to break his game, you just throw out more negatives. So that doesn't work for you. However, you want to play because you don't often get to play. But, you don't want to play in the game the DM is running. Yes, that's right, the DM does indeed determine the game. The problem here is regardless you are going to end up being unhappy. YOU, not the DM, has left you with no options. You have already talked to your DM, and he has said he wants to run this campaign his way. Odd that rather than the campaign you want, he is running the one he wants. If you want to be a player, then either play in his game or start looking online and at game shops for more groups. You can also just wait around for the game to crumble; sounds like it won't take long. Oh, and you don't help your case calling him a "spoiled child" when you are the one wanting him to change his game. I'm not the only one that doesn't want to play his class and races, no one in are group wants to play his race and of 5 people only one wants to play his class. I don't want to see his game crumble, I want to help him run a good game, both for me, and because I don't want him having a really bad experience his first time Dming and lose interest. As for calling him a"Spoiled child", I say this because he once had a Warmage that failed to break through a creatures SR, did he say "oh well" "Maybe next time", no he pushed his books off the table, knocking over his soda. He then started to yell at me and told me that I had to buy him a new soda. When I told him to grow up he stormed out, and then 3 days later came to me and cried (and I mean cried, tears and all) about how he wanted to play again, I gave him a break because he was new. He still get's angry, pushes stuff around, crosses his arms, and curses when things don't go his way. And as far as Finding another game group if I find one then they lose out on a place to play, we play at my house.
deathbane 12-11-07, 07:26 AM	I'm not the only one that doesn't want to play his class and races, no one in are group wants to play his race and of 5 people only one wants to play his class. I don't want to see his game crumble, I want to help him run a good game, both for me, and because I don't want him having a really bad experience his first time Dming and lose interest. As for calling him a"Spoiled child", I say this because he once had a Warmage that failed to break through a creatures SR, did he say "oh well" "Maybe next time", no he pushed his books off the table, knocking over his soda. He then started to yell at me and told me that I had to buy him a new soda. When I told him to grow up he stormed out, and then 3 days later came to me and cried (and I mean cried, tears and all) about how he wanted to play again, I gave him a break because he was new. He still get's angry, pushes stuff around, crosses his arms, and curses when things don't go his way. And as far as Finding another game group if I find one then they lose out on a place to play, we play at my house. This guy, friend or not, does not seem fit to DM. What happens when he sends you up against a mini-boss, or the BBEG itself, and a player uses creativity to wipe the floor with it? The players could hold back, and not be creative(this does mean use cheese), but being creative is part of what makes the game fun. If a DM hands my character his *** I don't like, but it is part of the game, and that character not including the backstory probably was made in less than an hour. When I make campaigns, it normally take days, or even weeks, and when someone jumps over a plot point, or in some other way negates a part of the campaign you spent considerable time on it is a lot more irritating. These are things that may happen, and he should be warned before hand to have a way to deal with such things.
katarl 12-11-07, 09:51 AM	I wanna play a race i homebrewed called the s'namuh, they get bonuses to skill points, an extra feat and can choose any favoured class. They're super-powerful, so i'll give them a +4 LA.
Krusk 12-11-07, 01:08 PM	I'm not the only one that doesn't want to play his class and races, no one in are group wants to play his race and of 5 people only one wants to play his class. Why dont the five of you start your own game with one of you as dm, and then tell him you are going to give him time to playtest his material and work on his session. Then invite him to join you. your problems- No one wants to play DND with this guy this guy is a bad dm your solution- play dnd with him? ....... wait why?
Mock26 12-11-07, 04:15 PM	I'm not the only one that doesn't want to play his class and races, no one in are group wants to play his race and of 5 people only one wants to play his class. Instead of prejudging everything why not open up your mind and give it a chance? Despite what you may think you cannot truly know whether or not you like it unless you actually try it. That is, of course, only if you go in with an open mind. I'm just curious as to why you are being so close-minded and judgemental about his game when you haven't even played it. Yes, I understand that you've read the class and race info. But, so what? You still don't know exactly how they will play out. So, why not give it a try? You have nothing to lose except a few hours of your time.
JarionSilverblades 12-17-07, 08:06 PM	Well That had to be the shortest D&D game in history. The New DM wouldn't give on anything, told all the players that we were members of an Assassin's guild, well that instantly made two of the players happy, and they choose to changed their alignment to evil, this upset the DM who told them, "Assassins can't be evil, you have to obey the rules.", I asked “What Rules.”, they told him they were, as the Assassin Prestige Class requires you to be evil, the rest of use became Chaotic Neutral. Then the tells us, "You start at mansion.", he doesn't tell us why we're there or what the objective is. So we wing it, so we sneak in, having to kill a guard to do so, well he went nuts, yelling "You can't kill the guard, he's not dead he's only hurt.", even though between the five of use we dealt 62 points of damage to a 3 level warrior. While trying to get into the mansion, I check the window for traps, rolled a 18, +6 ranks in search, +3 ability mod, total 27, “You find no trap.”, open the widow, and get hit by a poison dart trap, he said it had a search DC of 28. Already I’m having so much fun. We get inside and start stealing anything we think is valuable, he goes ape-***, telling us “Your ****ing assassins not thieves.” Later on, while sneaking around, we hear a cry for help, we all hide, and are told that the daughter of this guy was kidnaped, we choose not to save her and he went ballistic, yelling, throwing stuff, telling use that we're playing assassins wrong. I asked how we should be playing, he said like the guy in Assassin's Creed, we’re suppose to kill only bad-guys, and save people, I chimed in " You don’t even know the guy’s name. Why would assassins help someone, are we suppose to kill her?", that was it he yelled "You're all a bunch of ****ing ***holes, you just ****ing ruined my game, why the **** can’t you follow my story." It went on like that for about 12 more f-bombs, finally he grabbed his stuff and left. All in all the game lasted about 45 minutes.
PrinceOfTheVoid 12-17-07, 08:24 PM	.....Does he have some debilitating mental affliction? Spoiled Child doesn't begin to describe that. I've only had someone walk out on me in one game, only through the disruptive behaviour of another player, and we all pretty much handled like mature adults (and we were only 15ish at the time); this guy you describe honestly sounds like he needs some mediaction. (he CRIED to you? At 22 years old? Over a stupid game of Dungeons and Dragons that he only played once?)
Man in the Funny Hat 12-17-07, 09:34 PM	Well, that was hardly a surprising outcome - everyone but the DM saw it coming. Sounds to me like you did exactly what you needed to do - play the game straight up after making good-faith attempts to guide the DM and warn him, and simply let the inevitable take its course. Sad to see that happen but at that point your only other option was to simply NOT PLAY. While the DM in question (as you describe him and his outbursts) does not seem... cut out for the position it's not at all unusual for new DM's to be laboring under the misapprehension that the job gives them the right and ability to not just present the game but DICTATE it right down to the actions of the PC's. Maybe, just maybe that was simply something that he had to experience. Of course it's LIKELY that, as I said, he just isn't cut out for it - certainly not yet. If the situation comes up again your options are still no different. You voice your opinions and concerns, offer your help if you think it's needed, and then whatever else happens either AGREE to play or not. Here's to better gaming, dude.
KillerVole 12-18-07, 12:20 AM	Wow, sorry to hear that. Oh well. At least you all learned a lesson (that he's not ready to DM). I've noticed that many new DMs love the idea of DMing, but they expect their players to magically know how things should be. I ended up cleaning up after a similar incident (I inherited a bunch of players) and it was not pretty... Good luck with future games. Hopefully, you'll never have to deal with this again.
Krusk 12-18-07, 12:30 AM	Well That had to be the shortest D&D game in history. The New DM wouldn't give on anything, told all the players that we were members of an Assassin's guild, well that instantly made two of the players happy, and they choose to changed their alignment to evil, this upset the DM who told them, "Assassins can't be evil, you have to obey the rules.", I asked “What Rules.”, they told him they were, as the Assassin Prestige Class requires you to be evil, the rest of use became Chaotic Neutral. Then the tells us, "You start at mansion.", he doesn't tell us why we're there or what the objective is. So we wing it, so we sneak in, having to kill a guard to do so, well he went nuts, yelling "You can't kill the guard, he's not dead he's only hurt.", even though between the five of use we dealt 62 points of damage to a 3 level warrior. While trying to get into the mansion, I check the window for traps, rolled a 18, +6 ranks in search, +3 ability mod, total 27, “You find no trap.”, open the widow, and get hit by a poison dart trap, he said it had a search DC of 28. Already I’m having so much fun. We get inside and start stealing anything we think is valuable, he goes ape-***, telling us “Your ****ing assassins not thieves.” Later on, while sneaking around, we hear a cry for help, we all hide, and are told that the daughter of this guy was kidnaped, we choose not to save her and he went ballistic, yelling, throwing stuff, telling use that we're playing assassins wrong. I asked how we should be playing, he said like the guy in Assassin's Creed, we’re suppose to kill only bad-guys, and save people, I chimed in " You don’t even know the guy’s name. Why would assassins help someone, are we suppose to kill her?", that was it he yelled "You're all a bunch of ****ing ***holes, you just ****ing ruined my game, why the **** can’t you follow my story." It went on like that for about 12 more f-bombs, finally he grabbed his stuff and left. All in all the game lasted about 45 minutes. Sucks for you, but i got a good laugh out of it. THat guys ridicilus, and if for some reason you are considering talking to him still I would suggest you stop.
Etarnon 12-18-07, 09:11 AM	While trying to get into the mansion, I check the window for traps, rolled a 18, +6 ranks in search, +3 ability mod, total 27, “You find no trap.”, open the widow, and get hit by a poison dart trap, he said it had a search DC of 28. Already I’m having so much fun. Okay let me make one thing PERFECTLY CLEAR. Jarion Silverblades, Welcome to my sig. If you are ever in West Ohio, you are welcome as hell to join my game group of 14 years. I haven't laughed so hard since the cat got her head stuck in the jar of Jif peanut butter 6 months ago. I had a DM like that once. ONCE. You should DM. Freaking hilarious. ZOMG, still chuckling.
Mock26 12-18-07, 04:33 PM	Given the outcome of the first session, and given the age of the DM, you should most definitely leave the group. But, when you do, don't walk away, RUN AWAY! Run far and run fast and when it feels like your legs have turned to lead and the pain in your lungs and chest is unbearable, just run faster! At least you've got a great story that you'll be telling for the rest of your life! Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
DyloniusFunk 12-18-07, 09:17 PM	The hell I can't.... I can limit you to using only the PHB, then ban/limit various races & classes found within it. Pretty soon I can have a system where there's no 1/2breeds, all gnomes are barbarians, there's no such thing as sorcerers, etc etc etc. And if you agree to play, you'll be following those restrictions. And if you have players patient enough to play under those draconian restrictions then more power to you.
Man in the Funny Hat 12-19-07, 02:06 AM	And if you have players patient enough to play under those draconian restrictions then more power to you.Who would suggest otherwise? It's just that if you do set those conditions players will either agree to play or not. If they buy tickets on a ship named Titanic it won't do much good to try to rearrange the deck chairs after it hits the iceberg.
Eater_Of_Souls 12-19-07, 03:19 AM	Well just play the game after a few sessions he gets bored and you can start a new campaign. Thats what happened to my first campaign allthough it wasn't D&D but Cyberpunk. I had all these cool ideas of which none worked as planned in the end and everything pretty much sucked. My next D&D campaign after that was a lot better when I started actually planning on how to bring my 'cool things' in the game so that they made sense. And your DM sounds a lot like a guy who hasn't had enough bad experiencies in life yet, i'd say needs his game to be majorly ****ed up just to learn that life allways brings failures along with successes and it doesn't treat kindly to milk sops.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-19-07, 03:28 AM	So who's going to run the next game?
Mock26 12-19-07, 04:01 AM	And if you have players patient enough to play under those draconian restrictions then more power to you. Why do you automatically assume that such restrictions are draconian in nature? Just because you think they are draconian doesn't in fact mean that they actually are draconian. I once played in a campaign for almost a year using the old 2nd edition Viking Campaign Setting sourcebook. It took place on Earth, had an extremely limited number of monster races, even fewer class options, virtually no magic weapons, and everyone in the group had to be human. If one were to simply state, "I'm running a virtually non-magic campaign, you have to be human and you can only be one of four classes," then it is easy to make the DM sound like a restrictive jerk. But with the "proper" phrasing anything can be made to sound negative. But, when put in the proper context then it might not seem so bad. My human viking character, Orm Bengtsson, was one of my favorites, ever, and I can still close my eyes and vividly recall many of the groups exploits. And that campaign was over 15 years ago. It isn't the classes and races and level of magic that make a game enjoyable. It's the imagination of the players combined with the imagination and skill of the DM. With the right DM and the proper outlook anyone can enjoy running a human fighter in a non-magical campaign. Anyone who tells you that they cannot enjoy playing such a character simply lacks an imagination.
JarionSilverblades 12-19-07, 07:24 AM	So who's going to run the next game? Me, Though I think I might run a Darksun Campaign, just to change things up. Oh and incase you were wondering the poison dart that hit me, was tipped with Drow poison.
1red13 12-20-07, 09:23 PM	I think it's an understatement to say that the dm was enamored with the game and envisioned himself as the central character. Unless the PCs ran down the path he saw he obviously was unprepared for the results and a littel bitter that they didn't buy into his vision. I can understand the dms perspective but he forgot a pretty important rule of dming. The PCs are the players. Whatever the dm thinks is cool doesn't mean spit to the players. Each player is different and will find different things of interest It seems like its and immutable rule of law that if the dm thinks something is cool and is eager to unveil some plot or something new the players will shrug and and say whatever. On top of that players will usually fixate on some off the cuff remark and run off in search of some obscure reference Although the dm had a hissy fit, One can only hope everyone chalks it up to a learning experience.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-21-07, 12:10 AM	Me, Though I think I might run a Darksun Campaign, just to change things up. I've never played in Athas, but it apparently has quite a few avid fans. Sounds fun.
Killdur 12-22-07, 11:37 AM	Sometimes people learn best by failure. Did your first time DM work smoothly? Agreed, and my players still will not let me forget their first adventure which was a giant maze kinda like a "gold box game." Up until then my only experience with DnD was one game with my brother (which was a minotaur maze adventure) and the computer gold box games. Don't be afraid to tell him it sucks if it sucks because otherwise he will not get better. After "the maze of junk" debacle I spent time playing one on one with my brother and I eventually got better. As a matter of fact I just completed an epic level campaign, and I had nothing but complements.
Wheldrake 12-22-07, 12:29 PM	The "special" races and classes don't seem to me to present a major problem. After all, there are many different ways to create a character, some which give you lower stats, some higher. Regardless of your characters' stats, you'll play them the way you want to play them. The sample "assassin" class looks odd - it seems to have all the advantages of a fighter and a rogue, and none of the drawbacks. But what the h@ll, even if you *all* play this assassin class or some similarly "unbalanced" class, what's the problem? The classes are simply a system to adjudicate success or failure at various in-game tasks. Why not just go with the flow? Even the standard classes from the PHB are not "balanced" strictly speaking, and the some of many classes proposed in the many extra books throw any semblance of "balance" out the window. The real test for this DM will be when he is running adventures - do you have fun, or not? And if it all doesn't work in the end, perhaps someone else will DM, or this DM will decide to go back to basics. Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Exposed_Wires 12-22-07, 06:44 PM	I love it when people respond to a 2 page long thread after reading only the 1st post. It's up there with times when the first person to reply to a thread quotes the OP.
pigknight 12-24-07, 04:50 PM	Well That had to be the shortest D&D game in history. The New DM wouldn't give on anything, told all the players that we were members of an Assassin's guild, well that instantly made two of the players happy, and they choose to changed their alignment to evil, this upset the DM who told them, "Assassins can't be evil, you have to obey the rules.", I asked “What Rules.”, they told him they were, as the Assassin Prestige Class requires you to be evil, the rest of use became Chaotic Neutral. Then the tells us, "You start at mansion.", he doesn't tell us why we're there or what the objective is. So we wing it, so we sneak in, having to kill a guard to do so, well he went nuts, yelling "You can't kill the guard, he's not dead he's only hurt.", even though between the five of use we dealt 62 points of damage to a 3 level warrior. While trying to get into the mansion, I check the window for traps, rolled a 18, +6 ranks in search, +3 ability mod, total 27, “You find no trap.”, open the widow, and get hit by a poison dart trap, he said it had a search DC of 28. Already I’m having so much fun. We get inside and start stealing anything we think is valuable, he goes ape-***, telling us “Your ****ing assassins not thieves.” Later on, while sneaking around, we hear a cry for help, we all hide, and are told that the daughter of this guy was kidnaped, we choose not to save her and he went ballistic, yelling, throwing stuff, telling use that we're playing assassins wrong. I asked how we should be playing, he said like the guy in Assassin's Creed, we’re suppose to kill only bad-guys, and save people, I chimed in " You don’t even know the guy’s name. Why would assassins help someone, are we suppose to kill her?", that was it he yelled "You're all a bunch of ****ing ***holes, you just ****ing ruined my game, why the **** can’t you follow my story." It went on like that for about 12 more f-bombs, finally he grabbed his stuff and left. All in all the game lasted about 45 minutes. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Seriously, your DM has an int score of 3. An assassin is a LE/NE/CE thief that doesn't give a hoot about whats not in the contract. The Assassin's Creed assassin is a NG ranger. And that warrior was on drugs or something. But seriously, why are you at the mansion if not to kill someone and steal valuables.
Ziggaraut 12-25-07, 12:15 AM	I say this only because pissy and/or unreasonable DM's are pretty much all I've got that can play at the times I can play. I'm very busy. He fell into the newbie DM trap of setting the story that only functions if they respond in only a certain way. Assassins Creed is probably his only exposure to assassins, so he has a different view on how an 'assassin' should act. So, when most people thinks 'assassin', they think of an evil mofo that loves killing anyone he's paid to kill, while he is thinking of... well, I haven't played Assassin's Creed, so I don't really know what he's thinking, but you get my point. He planned poorly, and reacted terribly. He needs to mature as a DM (and maybe a person).
Sinfire Titan 12-26-07, 01:31 AM	First of all, I just got Assassin's Creed today, and after reading your DM's reaction again, he's off his rocker. The main character is an arrogant, heartless, POS straight up assassin. You and your friends were actually portraying the guy to a tee, even if you didn't know it. He does kill the guards, though it may be needless to do so. The guy has noticeable authority issues and likes to do what most Barbarians do best: Charge in, smash face. The only thing you did that he doesn't do is kill the chick, but that is how you wanted to play an assassin, so it was your choice. You did the right thing by leaving the game. Kudos to being more of an adult than your DM.
Mulkr 12-26-07, 07:21 PM	I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that story, but i do know this... That DM has never heard the Mulkr definition of Adventurer: Adventurer [ad-ven-tu-rer]:{1} A person/ creature more powerful than an average member of society that can complete three primary functions; 1) Kill things and loot there bodies. 2) Steal crap from sentient beings, then turn around and spend this loot on ways to annihilate other sentient beings. 3) Do the things midevil people do every day (Not bathe, Eat moldy bread, get drunk, etc. etc.) {2} A Character made for a roleplaying/ rollplaying game made specifically for example one and two of the first definition of Adventurer. {3} The person who finally manages to come up with a third definition for adventurer, and/ or the person who tells me and forgets so i can put a copyright on the third and final definition, then posts it, gets sued, ad hands over money so i can annihilate them, in correlation with the second definition of Adventurer. See also Hobo,Murderer,and Murdering hobo. If i had come up with this awhile ago, and he had read it a little while after that, he would have known that he was basically turning this game into anti- adventurer barney and sesame street love fest happy go lucky assassins are nice ask Ronald McDonald hour instead of a cool adventure. Also, there is an extremely important Disclaimer in the Quote box. Please highlight the Quote box to see it. These are my Opinions, and most if not all people on these boards will probably disagree with these opinions. If you start a flame war, this disclaimer specifically states for your veiwing pleasure that the Poster hearby reffered to as Mulkr had nothing to do with the Flame War, even if otherwise this would be entirely his fault by the WoTC message board laws. Anyone disagreeing with Mulkr or this Disclaimer is fully and utterly fair game for legal actions t save Mulkr's ass. Kobolds for core. That is all.