Fort save from damage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fort save from damage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wamagni
07-30-04, 03:30 AM Is there some sort of save you have to do if you take X damage from one hit? Because i've read a few threads that've said, oo, i do so much damage, NOW YOU HAVE TO MAKE A SAVE, and i haven't the slightest what they're talking about. Can anyone help me out here?
Blood Bath
07-30-04, 03:41 AM From my knowledge of D&D, the only time you make a Fort save against damage from a normal ranged/melee attack is when they deal 50 or more damage in one hit (not all of their attacks combined). And with that, the Fort save is to stop you from dieing automatically due to taking a large amount of damage.

The only other saves against taking damage, that I know of, is when trying to save for half damage against a spell such as fireball.

There could be more but that is all that I am aware of.
wamagni
07-30-04, 03:46 AM What's the save DC for the 50 or more damage thing? And what if you do one-hundred? Do you then double the DC?
Blood Bath
07-30-04, 03:51 AM The DC is 15 (page 140 something of the players handbook) and no, it doesn't increase due to more damage.
Faragdar the Wise
07-30-04, 11:30 AM The rule is "death from massive damage". I'm pretty sure it's an optional rule, in the DMG. I don't use it. If you still haven't located it, I'll look tonight and give you a page reference.

This from the 3.0 SRD:

Massive Damage
If a character ever sustains damage so massive that 50 points of damage or more are inflicted in one deduction, and the character isn't killed outright, the character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). If this saving throw fails, the character dies regardless of current hit points.
Arrowhen
07-30-04, 11:51 AM In the 3.5 SRD, anyway, it's not optional:

Massive Damage: If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply.

Or at least it's not any more optional than any other rule. ;)
Faragdar the Wise
07-30-04, 10:07 PM Right. It's in the PHB on page 145 and the variant rule is in the DMG on page 27. It's not supposed to be optional. The variant is that you can adjust the massive damage rule by a creature's size.

We don't use it, though, because it's just another way to give high level PCs another way to save or die. It doesn't make any sense to us, anyway, since we look at high hit points as, not the ability to absorb more and more damage, but the ability to turn a blow that would have killed someone with less skill into a glancing blow. In that sense, it doesn't make sense that 50 hp should be "massive damage" for anyone, regardless of their max hit points. But hey, that's just the way I see it.
wamagni
07-30-04, 11:42 PM Eh, we usually forget to play half our stuff and forget most of the rules. Oh well.
trapspringer
07-31-04, 12:14 PM Still fits, even with the logical, and book-backed, assumption that HP represensts your ability to turn a battle-axe to the face into a shaving cut. It was sooo good a hit that you couldn't get out of the way.
Faragdar the Wise
07-31-04, 01:35 PM Maybe it fits if you have 60 hps, but I have a 17th level character who has over 210 hp when he's raging. A 50 hp strike is less than 1/4 of his hit points. That's about as serious as a 4-5 hp strike to a 1st level barbarian. I don't call that "massive damage". And while his Fort save is +19 (+21 when raging), I'm just as glad I never have to make that save. My character has died twice to Bodaks, whose death gaze has the same DC. I'm not trying to argue you into using the same house rule as me, but that's how I've been playing it for 3 years and I don't plan to change. Just explaining my point of view.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-31-04, 07:19 PM Seriously, with a +5 1d10 weapon, even a x2 critical hit and Str 20, you still won't reach 50 points of damage in one hit.
Egres
07-31-04, 11:00 PM There's another situation in which you need to make a Fort save against a melee(or ranged if used adjacent) attack:

Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Lhiannon Sidhe
08-01-04, 05:00 AM My group's house rule regarding massive damage makes combat much, much deadlier. If you take damage from a single hit that is greater than your constitution score, you make a fortitude save equal to the differance or die. For example, a character with a Con of 10 takes 20 points of damage from a single attack, he then has to make a Fort save of 10 or die. This represents the attack damaging a vital area, such as piercing the heart or lungs, or slashing the throat.
MarkB
08-01-04, 05:24 AM Originally posted by Lhiannon Sidhe
My group's house rule regarding massive damage makes combat much, much deadlier. If you take damage from a single hit that is greater than your constitution score, you make a fortitude save equal to the differance or die. For example, a character with a Con of 10 takes 20 points of damage from a single attack, he then has to make a Fort save of 10 or die. This represents the attack damaging a vital area, such as piercing the heart or lungs, or slashing the throat. I guess, if you like your combat that deadly it's fine, but it scales even more poorly than the existing rule. For high-level characters, practically every melee attack would be save-or-die. Wouldn't it be more sensible to include some kind of scaling - for instance, make it your CON score multiplied by half your character level?
UZI
08-01-04, 08:00 AM A large enough creature with a damage or 2d8+9 can deal 4d8+18 on a critical, which maxes at 50. Damage of 2d6+13 does the same thing.
Faragdar the Wise
08-01-04, 10:31 PM It's true that you don't often take 50+ damage with one hit, but it happens, and my PC does it fairly often. As a 17th level character (fighter/barbarian/holy liberator), he wields a +3 keen, holy greatsword. With rage, bull's strength, weapon specialization, and improved critical, he usually does at least one crit per battle which can do 6d6 + 34 hp damage vs. evil creatures, even without power attack. On average, that's 55 hp damage. And my DM isn't soft on us. If a player can do something like that, we can expect to face enemies that do it, too.
Mitchell
08-02-04, 03:04 AM We houseruled it out too. By the time you start meeting things that can do 50 damage in one shot, you've got hit points, and depending on your class you've probably got a pretty good fortitude modifier as well. No thank you on the one-in-twenty chance of dying, but kind of you to offer.
By the same token, we won't do it to the monsters either. What works for us works for them. We also voted down the instant kill optional rule. If we ever get to that high a level, I'm just not interested in luck playing a bigger part than it already will. Save or die spells are bad enough.
Sphyre
08-03-04, 03:21 AM I agree with mitchell. It's a pretty moot rule. If you want to add some realism into the game you can switch to the hp/wound system...
nick012000
08-03-04, 04:54 AM To those that have removed massive damage:

So you think that a high level character should not only survive, but be in working condition following a fall from low orbit? It's only 20d6 damage by the rules (averages at 70 damage). Easily survivable by level 20 characters. With massive damage, there's at least a chance he'll die, even if not a high one.
starfire311
08-03-04, 09:06 AM Originally posted by nick012000
To those that have removed massive damage:

So you think that a high level character should not only survive, but be in working condition following a fall from low orbit? It's only 20d6 damage by the rules (averages at 70 damage). Easily survivable by level 20 characters. With massive damage, there's at least a chance he'll die, even if not a high one.

lol this is D&D after all... but you mus remember that fall would be 20D6 from the impact you will still suffocate at that high of an altitude and you will take much more fire damage during re-entry.... but not counting that just looking at the fall, seeing as how a commoner has what 4 hp and to survive this fall you need say 80... well I guess someone that is 20 times tougher than the average person.. then maybe they could survive. to gurantee survival from the fall the person would need 121 HP this person is over 30 times tougher than the average person... then yeah why cant they suvive.

BTW we dont use the death from massavie damage in my game... then again we also use WP/VP a person in my game taking this fall would take 20D6 with the 1st point fo each die coming from WP and the rest being VP first then WP if any is left.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wamagni 07-30-04, 03:30 AM	Is there some sort of save you have to do if you take X damage from one hit? Because i've read a few threads that've said, oo, i do so much damage, NOW YOU HAVE TO MAKE A SAVE, and i haven't the slightest what they're talking about. Can anyone help me out here?
Blood Bath 07-30-04, 03:41 AM	From my knowledge of D&D, the only time you make a Fort save against damage from a normal ranged/melee attack is when they deal 50 or more damage in one hit (not all of their attacks combined). And with that, the Fort save is to stop you from dieing automatically due to taking a large amount of damage. The only other saves against taking damage, that I know of, is when trying to save for half damage against a spell such as fireball. There could be more but that is all that I am aware of.
wamagni 07-30-04, 03:46 AM	What's the save DC for the 50 or more damage thing? And what if you do one-hundred? Do you then double the DC?
Blood Bath 07-30-04, 03:51 AM	The DC is 15 (page 140 something of the players handbook) and no, it doesn't increase due to more damage.
Faragdar the Wise 07-30-04, 11:30 AM	The rule is "death from massive damage". I'm pretty sure it's an optional rule, in the DMG. I don't use it. If you still haven't located it, I'll look tonight and give you a page reference. This from the 3.0 SRD: Massive Damage If a character ever sustains damage so massive that 50 points of damage or more are inflicted in one deduction, and the character isn't killed outright, the character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). If this saving throw fails, the character dies regardless of current hit points.
Arrowhen 07-30-04, 11:51 AM	In the 3.5 SRD, anyway, it's not optional: Massive Damage: If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply. Or at least it's not any more optional than any other rule. ;)
Faragdar the Wise 07-30-04, 10:07 PM	Right. It's in the PHB on page 145 and the variant rule is in the DMG on page 27. It's not supposed to be optional. The variant is that you can adjust the massive damage rule by a creature's size. We don't use it, though, because it's just another way to give high level PCs another way to save or die. It doesn't make any sense to us, anyway, since we look at high hit points as, not the ability to absorb more and more damage, but the ability to turn a blow that would have killed someone with less skill into a glancing blow. In that sense, it doesn't make sense that 50 hp should be "massive damage" for anyone, regardless of their max hit points. But hey, that's just the way I see it.
wamagni 07-30-04, 11:42 PM	Eh, we usually forget to play half our stuff and forget most of the rules. Oh well.
trapspringer 07-31-04, 12:14 PM	Still fits, even with the logical, and book-backed, assumption that HP represensts your ability to turn a battle-axe to the face into a shaving cut. It was sooo good a hit that you couldn't get out of the way.
Faragdar the Wise 07-31-04, 01:35 PM	Maybe it fits if you have 60 hps, but I have a 17th level character who has over 210 hp when he's raging. A 50 hp strike is less than 1/4 of his hit points. That's about as serious as a 4-5 hp strike to a 1st level barbarian. I don't call that "massive damage". And while his Fort save is +19 (+21 when raging), I'm just as glad I never have to make that save. My character has died twice to Bodaks, whose death gaze has the same DC. I'm not trying to argue you into using the same house rule as me, but that's how I've been playing it for 3 years and I don't plan to change. Just explaining my point of view.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-31-04, 07:19 PM	Seriously, with a +5 1d10 weapon, even a x2 critical hit and Str 20, you still won't reach 50 points of damage in one hit.
Egres 07-31-04, 11:00 PM	There's another situation in which you need to make a Fort save against a melee(or ranged if used adjacent) attack: Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Lhiannon Sidhe 08-01-04, 05:00 AM	My group's house rule regarding massive damage makes combat much, much deadlier. If you take damage from a single hit that is greater than your constitution score, you make a fortitude save equal to the differance or die. For example, a character with a Con of 10 takes 20 points of damage from a single attack, he then has to make a Fort save of 10 or die. This represents the attack damaging a vital area, such as piercing the heart or lungs, or slashing the throat.
MarkB 08-01-04, 05:24 AM	Originally posted by Lhiannon Sidhe My group's house rule regarding massive damage makes combat much, much deadlier. If you take damage from a single hit that is greater than your constitution score, you make a fortitude save equal to the differance or die. For example, a character with a Con of 10 takes 20 points of damage from a single attack, he then has to make a Fort save of 10 or die. This represents the attack damaging a vital area, such as piercing the heart or lungs, or slashing the throat. I guess, if you like your combat that deadly it's fine, but it scales even more poorly than the existing rule. For high-level characters, practically every melee attack would be save-or-die. Wouldn't it be more sensible to include some kind of scaling - for instance, make it your CON score multiplied by half your character level?
UZI 08-01-04, 08:00 AM	A large enough creature with a damage or 2d8+9 can deal 4d8+18 on a critical, which maxes at 50. Damage of 2d6+13 does the same thing.
Faragdar the Wise 08-01-04, 10:31 PM	It's true that you don't often take 50+ damage with one hit, but it happens, and my PC does it fairly often. As a 17th level character (fighter/barbarian/holy liberator), he wields a +3 keen, holy greatsword. With rage, bull's strength, weapon specialization, and improved critical, he usually does at least one crit per battle which can do 6d6 + 34 hp damage vs. evil creatures, even without power attack. On average, that's 55 hp damage. And my DM isn't soft on us. If a player can do something like that, we can expect to face enemies that do it, too.
Mitchell 08-02-04, 03:04 AM	We houseruled it out too. By the time you start meeting things that can do 50 damage in one shot, you've got hit points, and depending on your class you've probably got a pretty good fortitude modifier as well. No thank you on the one-in-twenty chance of dying, but kind of you to offer. By the same token, we won't do it to the monsters either. What works for us works for them. We also voted down the instant kill optional rule. If we ever get to that high a level, I'm just not interested in luck playing a bigger part than it already will. Save or die spells are bad enough.
Sphyre 08-03-04, 03:21 AM	I agree with mitchell. It's a pretty moot rule. If you want to add some realism into the game you can switch to the hp/wound system...
nick012000 08-03-04, 04:54 AM	To those that have removed massive damage: So you think that a high level character should not only survive, but be in working condition following a fall from low orbit? It's only 20d6 damage by the rules (averages at 70 damage). Easily survivable by level 20 characters. With massive damage, there's at least a chance he'll die, even if not a high one.
starfire311 08-03-04, 09:06 AM	Originally posted by nick012000 To those that have removed massive damage: So you think that a high level character should not only survive, but be in working condition following a fall from low orbit? It's only 20d6 damage by the rules (averages at 70 damage). Easily survivable by level 20 characters. With massive damage, there's at least a chance he'll die, even if not a high one. lol this is D&D after all... but you mus remember that fall would be 20D6 from the impact you will still suffocate at that high of an altitude and you will take much more fire damage during re-entry.... but not counting that just looking at the fall, seeing as how a commoner has what 4 hp and to survive this fall you need say 80... well I guess someone that is 20 times tougher than the average person.. then maybe they could survive. to gurantee survival from the fall the person would need 121 HP this person is over 30 times tougher than the average person... then yeah why cant they suvive. BTW we dont use the death from massavie damage in my game... then again we also use WP/VP a person in my game taking this fall would take 20D6 with the 1st point fo each die coming from WP and the rest being VP first then WP if any is left.