Post/Author/DateTime	Post
annalivvie 01-31-05, 12:42 AM	I also posted this under monsters, but I thought for player help this might be better. Four party members kill or rather entrap the red ancient great wyrm in their area, and four remain. Now the other four dragons are hunting the party and ready to come to one another's aid to destroy the enemies that could destroy them all in individual encounters. Dragons remaining: Blue, Black, Green, and White Party members: Druid Variant (UA) Level 21 -- Favored Soul 17/Fighter 4 --Barbarian 14/Sorcerer 2/ Dragon Disciple 2/Human Paragon 3 -- Cleric 7/Human Paragon 3/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 Now, here's the sticky situation, the party takes off to the white dragon's lair. Once there, the dragon spots them and flees, and they go deeper into the lair. The Druid realizes, "Oh, great, the dragon isnt making itself stronger with spells, (which I intend to tell the players at the beginning of next session), the dragon is calling the other ancients to its side. The ancients have dragon orbs with which they can speak to one another at any time. So there the party is, all sitting ducks. Now they can word of recall out or the cleric can miracle them out... still the dragons will search for them and hunt them together. Here's an idea -- certainty of death, high, but no higher than fighting all of them at once which is what the DM would like to see happen. What if all the player seperated and each quickly amassed their own army, gained their own magic for protection from breath weapons, and sent one another messages through animal messengers or the like. They plan one date to strike, and all do so simultaneously so each dragon will have to fight his own battle against each PCs army, so they cannot call one another to help. The downside: in this time the dragons could go after each player member individually while unprepared. But really, what are the other options? So given the idea that each of the four will amass their own army and each go after one dragon... Which player and their army should go for each dragon? Strategy for fighting, strategy for getting things together as one PC and not four? If this is a totally crazy idea, and granted, it's not that keen, what other strategies could be used?
angryman 01-31-05, 02:06 AM	As fun as it sounds, raising an army does not work against dragons. Lots of low level characters will just die, simple as that. And you're right, they dragons will take out each PC piecemeal if you separate. I'd recommend traveling to another plane for some down time...but they could follow you, so go to somewhere good, where they'll be more reluctant to go, such as Elysium...
penchant 01-31-05, 02:24 AM	Yeah, breathweapons are designed to take out armies. It sounds like you need to stage a rogue mission to steal the orbs and replace them with fake ones. Then when the party attacks one he will try to call for help and just actvate a necklace of fireballs instead. This would work with one or two of them then you can try something else for the rest. Looking at the character list, I see that you have a totally whoopass party lined out. That's perhaps why this has not occurred to them. Let them contract out to a high level group of rogues (which you will let them roll up and run for a change of pace game) and then proceed with that asswhoopin'. Just make sure that the rogues get a fair price for the job. This wouldn't be a 50gp raid. The high levels should be paying top dollar for such a thing. This is the reason you need a good rogue in a group.
annalivvie 01-31-05, 03:45 AM	It is not a good idea to seperate, but what to do? They can take the item they placed the red dragon in to the Fae World, which would bring them back a couple of years later with a gem dragon... They Sanctified him. However they cant really afford to leave for a long time right now because of all the other enemies looking forward to ruining the world. You know the way of evil NPCs. Plus everytime we leave for that long... to the Fae World, all the NPCs level a zillion times and the PCs dont, because it's been two days to them and three years to the NPCs. Additionally, you have to pass through the Fae World to go to anywhere else... However, I dont think it would be a problem with spells. We'll see. Now, stealing the orbs, that is an idea... How to find high level rogues. I believe the party now knows of or knows three. Are they the kind of rogues to steal dragon orbs from the ancients, maybe one that they only know of... **sighs** This is a tough one.
penchant 01-31-05, 04:29 AM	Even if they can diffuse one, facing three is better than four. Perhaps once (if ) they use that tactic to defeat one, then they challenge another. When he shows up with two other dragons in tow, the party isn't there any more. They are at one of the other dragon's lairs laying an ambush. When the dragons give up and go home, they waylay the one as soon as he gets home. By then they've disabled his traps and laid their own including (gasp) an adamantine net that keeps him from flying out. By the time they take out two more dragons, they should have enough loot and XP to take out the other two together. Unless, I was running them, of course! :D Just a suggestion though. That's how I would try to handle it if I was a savvy party leader. If I was a savvy party rogue, I would be wondering what was going on in greyhawk.
weretouched 02-02-05, 05:48 PM	heres an idea about that army normaly dragons are petty overconfident and just plain rude so.... use that get an army of wizards lvl1 will even do, 400 or so bluff a dragon into lowering its sr for you and suprise 400 spells hit it 1d4 only but thatll hurt it even if they all roll 1's its gonn nearly kill it ;) if your bluff doesnt work youll always have 400 play things infront of you b4 the dragon gets there :D
mbfu3k 02-02-05, 07:38 PM	I don't think the guy playing the pickle stands a chance against the dragons. I didn't think pickle was a valid PC race, anyway? :rolleyes: --- Anyway, I've always thought Trap the Soul seems to be the most effective way of taking out a dragon or two. It's pretty easy to appeal to a dragon's greed and hubris. Just make sure you use a magic item (magic sword, wand, whatever) as the trigger item, in case the dragon has Detect Magic up. No save, no SR. If you have the money and know or can find out the dragons' names, this is definitely the way to go. Note: To pull this off, you'd best get all four trigger objects ready at one time, then have each member go to a different dragon's lair. It would be best if they could then send in some lacky with the instructions, "Deliver this as an offering of peace" or some such. Since the lacky thinks it's actually a peace offering, the dragon can't Sense Motive him. :) And since you execute this for all four dragons at once, there won't be any around afterwards to realize that it was a trap. (Unless, of course, this was how you managed to trap the red dragon in the first place. In which case, nevermind, they'll never fall for it twice. Although, perhaps you could still just sneak in and place it near / amongst the dragon's hoard. Then just leave and hope the dragon picks it up some time wondering what it is.)
Saurenda 02-02-05, 09:00 PM	Dragons remaining: Blue, Black, Green, and White Party members: Druid Variant (UA) Level 21 -- Favored Soul 17/Fighter 4 --Barbarian 14/Sorcerer 2/ Dragon Disciple 2/Human Paragon 3 -- Cleric 7/Human Paragon 3/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 Your cleric will be your salvation. I hope he does indeed have the Sun and Healing domains necessary to take radiant servant PrC. First have the cleric cast commune. You'll get 17 yes or nos. Find out the buffs, most of all ask for a planar entity to be called to your side. Have The Cleric Cast Miracle. Ask Pelor to have the ability to sponatneously cast Flamestrike for the day, and use spell slots higher than five to prepare it. Ask for a Golden dragon to come to your side that is friendly to Pelor if he is on really good terms with the Sun God. It is much worse to be outguned than to be be outmatached. You say they have the orbs of dragon kind? They are truly dead. Call to your side a Cleric of Io. These dragons have endangered all of dragon kind using the orbs and have earned enmity of all dragon kind for thier actions. All dragons already know they have the orbs automatically. Have the Druid prepare to summon storm elementals. Lots of them. Have planar ally/ storm elementals all attack the White Wyrm. Flame Strike White Wyrm, use dispel magics a plenty if you Favored Soul choose that spell. You need to be able to take out at least one. If your truly not under the impression you'll win ask pelor a yes or no can we leave without detect and use miracle to get away for the moment. Confront Bahamut's Palace in Celestia. Tiamat's clerics will even be willing to help you considering what these chromatics have done to defile themselves by using the orbs of dragon kind. Raising an army is not the answer. Chances are if what you said about the orbs is true, then there are two BIG armies mobilized waiting. they will all know the location of the dragons as they are dragons and users of the orbs are revealed to all of dragon kind despite magical prevention. The orbs are artifacts it takes an artifact to cancel out thier pentrating natures. Hope it helps you.
angryman 02-02-05, 09:50 PM	bluff a dragon into lowering its sr for you and suprise 400 spells hit it Bluff the dragon into lowering its magical defences in front of an army of wizards? I'd say DC 70. Good luck with that.
Rallaster 02-02-05, 10:01 PM	bluff a dragon into lowering its sr for you and suprise 400 spells hit it Well, I suppose that if you could find a mid epic rogue with a very good charisma... However, the actual practicality of this "solution" is very low. That's like me saying to you, "Hey, don't you think it would be a great idea, you know, me being your enemy and all, if you were to strip down naked? You know, lowering your chances of, oh say... I don't know... me thrusting a dagger inbetween your third and fourth rib... or something like that..."
Gurthoron 02-07-05, 05:12 PM	The best solution for at least the White Dragon - Alchemists fire. Its great advantage is that it only allows a reflex save to put out, not to avoid initial damage. And if you fill a bag of holding IV with alchemists fire thats 1500 D6 fire damage on a hit. With a White, increase that by 50%. It should be able to kill any of those dragons, even with splash damage. It'll cost several thousand gold, but at that level it should be relatively cheap. BTW, you can do the same thing with acid for less, but it won't work against the green or black. Also, doesn't this place have dragonslayers, a dragonhunters guild, or a large contingent of Paladins. With paladins, point and say "Evil" and you have a complete army raring to go.
fallabel 02-07-05, 05:31 PM	If there's a way to (easily) slay that Red Dragon that you have trapped, I'd recommend that your Favored Soul/Fighter does it singlehandedly. That way, he can level up to and multiclass again as a Vassal of Bahamut. If you can buy enough time to level him up a few times, the Vassal can be an amazing dragonslayer.
Loren Pechtel 02-08-05, 01:03 AM	The best solution for at least the White Dragon - Alchemists fire. Its great advantage is that it only allows a reflex save to put out, not to avoid initial damage. And if you fill a bag of holding IV with alchemists fire thats 1500 D6 fire damage on a hit. With a White, increase that by 50%. It should be able to kill any of those dragons, even with splash damage. It'll cost several thousand gold, but at that level it should be relatively cheap. BTW, you can do the same thing with acid for less, but it won't work against the green or black. There's no way I would permit it to stack like that. There's a limit to how much can burn at once--once all the oxygen next to the target gets burned it won't get any hotter no matter how much you dump on.
Loren Pechtel 02-08-05, 01:04 AM	If there's a way to (easily) slay that Red Dragon that you have trapped, I'd recommend that your Favored Soul/Fighter does it singlehandedly. That way, he can level up to and multiclass again as a Vassal of Bahamut. If you can buy enough time to level him up a few times, the Vassal can be an amazing dragonslayer. XP for killiing a captive?????
Loren Pechtel 02-08-05, 01:08 AM	How I would deal with this: For now the party has to evade. If they see the dragons, teleport away immediately. If they see the dragons it means the dragons aren't in their lairs. It's time for a quick raid, the objective being to get orbs. Summon some stuff to lead the way and spring the traps. A secondary objective of such raids should be to steal treasure and in general inflict damage. Make the dragons regret not being home. The end objective is to get them home and without the ability to immediately summon the others.
Ashtar 02-08-05, 06:52 AM	Dragons are Evil. Some even are chaotic (Black and White). Evil turns upon itself. The exceptional situation which you forced upon them (disposing of the ancient red) will cause a power vacuum. The Chaotic ones will not collaborate for long, prefering to turn to their own affairs. The Lawful ones will see the vacuum as a way of advancing their power. You might even convince one to turn against it's allies for the spoils of the fight. The best way to fight is to find their differences and split them up.
fallabel 02-08-05, 06:56 AM	XP for killiing a captive????? Well, even if you didn't get XP from killing the captive, that's not critical. A prereq for becoming a Vassal of Bahamut is slaying a red dragon, so that's why they'd have to kill the one they've got in custody. If you want the XP, just release it and then kill it.
Heironymus_Vann 02-08-05, 08:41 AM	First, these dragons are all gargantuan, so they can all be forcecaged (no SR, use the 20ft cage with bars)... your favored soul can forcecage the dragons so they can be taken care of one at a time and have the other caster hold actions with greater dispelling to counterspell any disintegrates they might try to cast; your caster level is a lot better, so it should be doable. This controls the battlefield a bit. Too bad you don't have arcane support, though. The druid can make a few fireseeds to take care of the white dragon (again, no SR, and if you use a rod of greater empower you'll get 20d6 x 1.5 x 1.5 damage per seed) and maybe a well-placed meteor from the favored soul. I'd summon elemental swarms of types to oppose each remaining dragon, maybe augment with elemental monoliths if you have enough 9th level spells. The key here really is battlefield control... keep the dragons apart and on the ground. it might be worth a casting of miracle to cast Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion in the battle area, which is great for you to run in periodically to heal or re-buff, and its not easy for them to dispel because all your caster levels are higher. Your real problem though is their spellcasting... you have 2 17th and 2 15th level sorcerers to deal with as well as dragons. You certainly want to be as magic-resistant as possible (precast magic resistance on each player) and make sure everyone has a rod of negation or multiple rods of cancellation (each of these dragons can cast forcecage multiple times, and will... they like the barred ones where they can just use breath weapons on the hapless occupants). The green and blue can potentially cast time stop, of course, so you should consider yourself forcecaged - I cannot emphasize enough the need for ways to deal with force effects! Freedom of Movement is good to in case you have Evards to deal with, or solid or acid fog when the time stop ends. Just a few considerations. HV