Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maerdash 06-29-05, 01:15 AM	OK I was playing a 13th level fighter in one of my games, then I was captured by slavers when I held the entrance to an alley allowing my party to escape. Next thing I know I'm being transported cross country with my group in hot pursuit, The slavers get me to a city where gladiator matches are held my party is in town looking for me, but the locals are a frightened and closed mouthed lot. My party finds me as I step onto the sands of the arena, I'm facing off against a short, wiry human unarmored and armed only with a dagger. Obviously I know something is up, my group tries to charge the arena and get tangled up in a nasty fight. Meanwhile my fight in the arena is on, I land blow after blow, I trip, I disarm, I grapple. Ten rounds later I die and the guy starts eating my character! (no he didn't get to finish me but still!). The dm looked a little sheepish when he told me it was only an 10th level character, 6th level barabarian/4th level frenzied berserker. My question is this. Is there anyway I could have won this fight? Because I'm at a loss, my character was ressurected but if I have to face this guy very often I'll be back at 1st level quick,fast, and in a hurry. Edit: Yes I know that the Frenzied berserker is a little broken, but this guys gear consists of a long sword and its just a straight berserker without any of the normal kill legions cheese added in.
Kintara 06-29-05, 01:27 AM	The trick to surviving a Berserker is to wait until he goes limp after the Frenzy. Calm Emotions helps a lot, but you'd probably need to prep that before-hand. Since they're typically Barbarians, you'll probably want a way to slow them down, if you just want to run one out.
Maerdash 06-29-05, 01:35 AM	The trick to surviving a Berserker is to wait until he goes limp after the Frenzy. Calm Emotions helps a lot, but you'd probably need to prep that before-hand. Since they're typically Barbarians, you'll probably want a way to slow them down, if you just want to run one out. I can't I'm a fighter who lost all his gear when he was captured, the things faster than I am and can stay in a fight a LOT longer, without some support from the party I fear I'm toast and my party just got pretty beaten up.
moustache guy 06-29-05, 02:18 AM	Can you go total defense or avoid the berserker for 9 or so rounds? If so, then you may last long enough for his rage to end. Then he will be fatiuged for the rest of the combat and won't be able to rage any more. Also, can you use the arena to your advantage? Can you hide somewhere, or have him chase you whle using the arena to your advantage? While raging he can't use any charisma, dexterity, or intelligence-based skills. So you may be able to find a weakness there. Or, if you want to be even more sneaky, somehow get him to use his rage and frenzy abilities before the fight. Have someone throw a rock at him and watch him go. He only gets two rage attempts per day, so you could just anger him twice and he won't have any more rage to fight you with. Other strats really depend on the details of your char. ie Your feats, skills, resources, etc.
Maerdash 06-29-05, 02:36 AM	Or, if you want to be even more sneaky, somehow get him to use his rage and frenzy abilities before the fight. Have someone throw a rock at him and watch him go. He only gets two rage attempts per day, so you could just anger him twice and he won't have any more rage to fight you with. Other strats really depend on the details of your char. ie Your feats, skills, resources, etc. Muwahahahaha YES!!! I can do this, we are in cells that are across from each other, I have access to plenty of things to throw at him, spoons, plates, etc. thank you you just saved my character. :D
Kintara 06-29-05, 02:49 AM	Haha! Moustache guy gets a prize! :gift:
Ehlijen Iswa Tschingjo 06-29-05, 09:12 AM	Spring attacking trips would one of the best options here, don't know if you can do that though. If you can: As long as you end your move more than 10 feet from him after a successful trip, he can't hurt you. Also, he can't choose not to go frenzy if he is hurt. So if you can do the rock throw thing mentioned before, you could get a round or two into the frenzy without danger to you. Also, if your DM describes your opponent as wiry, he probably doesn't have too much con or strenght. Or he was actively misleading you. And make sure your DM knows you can't power attack or fight twohanded with a dagger. That's the FB's biggest advantages gone. Some things you probably don't want to hear: He does not have to rage and frenzy at the same time. He can stagger those two effects to increase his duration of boosts. Also, putting 4th level FB's into galdiator matches isn't really fair on you as YOU COULD NOT HAVE KILLED HIM. No matter how much damage he would have suffered, he would only die after his frenzy ran out. EDIT: corrected the distance in the first sentence
Phrennzy 06-29-05, 10:05 AM	You could just run from him. Run across the arena. Keep running. Every round, you run. That's 4x your move speed. He'll move to keep up. If he gets close, double move. That will prevent him from closing and attacking (watch out for charge). Let your endurance feat do the talking in this fight. Once the Frenzy Rage wears down, beat the crap out of him. What about grappling him? Wrestle around doing small amounts of damage as the rounds tick by... It should be an even match, since you have a higher BAB and once he rages your strengths may be the same. Grappling prevents him from using the longsword.
Hvitar-Hrafnar 06-29-05, 10:50 AM	You could just run from him. Run across the arena. Keep running. Every round, you run. That's 4x your move speed. He'll move to keep up. If he gets close, double move. That will prevent him from closing and attacking (watch out for charge). Let your endurance feat do the talking in this fight. Once the Frenzy Rage wears down, beat the crap out of him. What about grappling him? Wrestle around doing small amounts of damage as the rounds tick by... It should be an even match, since you have a higher BAB and once he rages your strengths may be the same. Grappling prevents him from using the longsword. It seems as though this problem was solved, but trying to outrun a Barbarian is not easy. Remember, they have 40 speed instead of the average 30 for a medium creature, so 40x4= 160 while 30x4=120. And being a barbarian, Constitution and Strength are his highest stats; the barbarian could easily outrun you.
Phrennzy 06-29-05, 11:36 AM	It seems as though this problem was solved, but trying to outrun a Barbarian is not easy. Remember, they have 40 speed instead of the average 30 for a medium creature, so 40x4= 160 while 30x4=120. And being a barbarian, Constitution and Strength are his highest stats; the barbarian could easily outrun you. Fighter only needs to stick and move until the rage wears down...Maybe 8 rounds... He can attack once to start the rage, and then fight with Full Defense and withdraw (to avoid AoO) for that long. The Barb/Frenzy will be denied his full number of attacks because he'll have to move to keep up. Another option is to Sunder his weapon. You said it was a dagger or longsword. Without a weapon, he'll have to resort to unarmed attacks, which draw AoO from you. What feats do you have? Improved Trip and or Improved Sunder would be nice around now.
KoboldSlayer 06-29-05, 04:51 PM	It seems as though this problem was solved, but trying to outrun a Barbarian is not easy. Remember, they have 40 speed instead of the average 30 for a medium creature, so 40x4= 160 while 30x4=120. And being a barbarian, Constitution and Strength are his highest stats; the barbarian could easily outrun you. Running is still a good tactic. If you stand and fight, the barbarian gets multiple attacks on you with a full attack action. If you run, even if he catches up, he can't do anything once he gets there but one attack. (No attacks if you make him do a double move, unless he charges. No attacks if you make him more than double move at all...run 4x if the arena is big enough.) If you happen to meet this guy again and he is with friends, just be sure his friends are nearby when you fight (unless they are also pounding on you). He has to make a Will save to avoid hitting a random target instead of you if he's mad enough, and barbarians are usually not so great on the Will.
Lord Schpungus 06-29-05, 05:09 PM	FBs fight enemies until there are none left, so hitting him with a rock in the midst of his friends won't work: he'll just charge after you and won't attack his party until you're well and dead.
Merestil Haye 06-29-05, 06:52 PM	Running is still a good tactic. If you stand and fight, the barbarian gets multiple attacks on you with a full attack action. If you run, even if he catches up, he can't do anything once he gets there but one attack. (No attacks if you make him do a double move, unless he charges. No attacks if you make him more than double move at all...run 4x if the arena is big enough.)There's also a problem with this. If you run, as distinct from withdraw, your opponent gets an AoO. And you have denied yourself your Dex bonus to AC by running (unless you have the Run fet). So you have to choose based on whether you get more protection from keeping Dex than he gets bonuses for charging, and factoring in whether he has any sneak attack.
was_fired 06-29-05, 07:44 PM	If you had spring attack and combat expertise this would be easy, but without either your in trouble. With them you just combat expertise for max, fight defensively, and spring attack him when he gets up to you allow you to move 30ft away without provoking an AoO. Using this trick you would up your AC by 7 points and reduce him to one attack a round. Since you have no ranks in tumble your best option is using withdraw actions to reduce him to 1 attack a round. If we knew your feats it would help.
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-29-05, 09:14 PM	Could you give us your feats? With those, we could help you out a bit more. I don't have anything to say, the previous posters have covered very good options.
Maerdash 06-29-05, 09:38 PM	Alright my feats 1:Blind fight 2:combat expertise 3:improved disarm 4:improved trip 5:improved unarmed 6:improved grapple 7:power attack 8:improved sunder 9:improved crittical:Falchion 10:improved buckler defense (complete warrior) 11:mage slayer (complete arcane) 12:pierce magical concealment (complete arcane) 13:earths embrace (complete warrior)
Encard 06-29-05, 09:56 PM	I think your best bet would have been to trip/disarm as you did, picked up his dagger, and then have stayed out of reach until Frenzy wore off. Then hit him to make sure he doesn't have more Frenzies left and go for the hacking him to bits/grappling him to death.
was_fired 06-29-05, 10:02 PM	In that case I say go with grappling. You should have a higher modifier than him thanks to your level and improved grapple's bonus canceling out the strength boost rage gives, and his touch AC will be a joke so the grab won't be an issue. Then try to pin him. You have 3 grapple attempts a round at +20/+15/+10 (if you have a strength of 16 or 17) while he should only have a +18/+18/+13 (if his base is 16 or 17 including rage and frenzy). If you can pull off a pin your in great shape since that +2 bonus on him means that there is only a 37.5% chance he can beat you in order to deal damage or break out of the pin with his two best attacks. Of course with two attempts a round he does have a 61% chance of breaking free of beating you once, but you have to take what you can get. Your other best bet is to combat expertise for 5 and try to disarm him. You have a +12 bonus (using the sword in two hands) thanks to the feat and weapon size so the -5 from expertise shouldn't make things too bad for you as you would still have a +20 bonus compared to his +15 (without either of your strength mods). I would advise against tripping since with his rages up his strength jumps 10 points and improved trip only grants you a +4 (meaning he should be one higher than you unless your stronger to start with).
Vaelan 06-29-05, 10:09 PM	There's also a problem with this. If you run, as distinct from withdraw, your opponent gets an AoO. And you have denied yourself your Dex bonus to AC by running (unless you have the Run fet). So you have to choose based on whether you get more protection from keeping Dex than he gets bonuses for charging, and factoring in whether he has any sneak attack. You're still only taking two attacks instead of three, although Power Attack can be used more effectively. My advice? Trip him, then use your free attack to disarm him. Then pick up his weapon. He shouldn't have much luck disarming you bare-handed, nor should he have much luck grappling you. He doesn't get to apply his Strength or Power Attack as though he were using a two-handed weapon either.
Maerdash 06-29-05, 10:28 PM	I think the trip/disarm advice is best if I cant get his frenzy taken care of ahead of time. I can't out run him the arena is to small, it has spiked walls that I've thought of climbing but i figure I would be shot down by the arena gaurds. Grapple isn't a very good option because he has the Close qaureters fighting feat which allow him to make an AoO against me even though I have Improved grapple and whatever damage he does is added to his grapple check to resist being grappled.
Dunelord 06-29-05, 10:41 PM	Fight Defensivly and max out your expertice if it comes up that you can't move out of his reach. Keep moving till he is out of Frenzy RUN if you can. Prey. If your runner will let you throw sand in his eyes to blind him. Use any AoO you get to trip him. RUN if you can.
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-29-05, 10:42 PM	Double post, my mistake.
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-29-05, 10:43 PM	What kind of a weapon do you get? If it's a... 1. Longsword, or something like that: grapple the Berserker and Sunder his weapon. 2. Whiplike weapon: Disarm and trip. Either way, disarming him is the way to go. Once that's done, simply avoid his frenzy (Running is your friend, as well as double moving), and Power Attack him while he's fatigued or on the ground (Tripped).
Maerdash 06-29-05, 10:51 PM	I get a Falchion, well I get to choose what weapon I want before the matches. I can't grapple him, not effectively, he rages and frenzies at the same time for +10 str, he has imp grapple (im guessing since he has close qaurters fighting), and he has close qaurters fighting, my ac in the arena is 17 (chain mail and dex+2) so he has no trouble hitting me and that adds his damage (seems to average only about 16 points with the longsword) to the grapple check for him to resist being grappled.
Demonfey 06-29-05, 11:07 PM	I had a half orc barbarian frenzied berserker who killed an adult white dragon virtually alone and was kept from slaughtering the rest of the group only by a psion character with 3.0 rules and mind blast. I just said I willingly failed each time. He then went on to destroy either a clay or stone golem alone, and then after that, killed a dragon god that was the BBEG, due to one fact: rage and frenzy stack.
MJ the Prophet 06-29-05, 11:15 PM	The idea to make him waste his frenzies earlier in the day is probably the best. Yes, he just attacks whatever's around him until his frenzy is over, but if he's in a cell and can't get to you, you're fine. Any damage may provoke a frenzy, so keep a nice supply of rocks in your cell, and you should be fine. Of course, if he bends the bars of his cell with his enhanced Strength, does the same to your cell, and then gets to you after he's killed everyone else nearer to him and the officials aren't around...Ouch. Okay, maybe its not a perfect plan, but if the cells are good and strong, go for it.
was_fired 06-30-05, 11:03 AM	If your base AC is 17 you have a better chance than I thought. First sunder his weapon and move alway from him. This reduces him to his unarmed damage of 1d3 + Str and causes him to provoke an AoO each time he attacks you. Once his weapon is destroyed combat expertise for max, fight defensively, smack him and walk away from him. Without a weapon he doesn't threaten the area around him (unless he has improved unarmed strike). He should have trouble hitting your boosted AC of 24 if he power attacks.
Ithamar 06-30-05, 07:41 PM	Not that it helps the situation really, but how do you have so many feats when you are only level 13? :confused:
was_fired 06-30-05, 07:50 PM	He's a human fighter. Fighters have 1 + Level / 2 feats, humans have 1 extra feat, and you always have 1 + level / 3 feats. So we have 7 fighter, 1 human, 5 normal. 7 + 1 + 5 = 13.
Zalak 06-30-05, 08:14 PM	sunder his weapon. If he has a spare weapon, use expertise until his rage and frenzy are over. Damage dealt while he's frenzied over his maximum hp is pretty much wasted, so don't worry about dealing a lot. Unarmed damage Shouldn't be able to stop you in time. After his frenzy is over, he'll have signifigant penalties and won't be able to run away. Use power attack and full attack to get any extra damage in, if necessary, but he should collapse as soon as he loses the all his frenzy bonuses to hp. Angering him before a atch is a good idea, but make sure you deal damage to him and the guards don't see it. In all likelihood your DM won't force you to go through another fight with him. You should be more worried about getting out of the cell in time to avoid the next fight. If your party can help get away in time, that's the best plan. Otherwise, see if they can help you cheat.
Vaelan 07-01-05, 12:47 AM	Grapple isn't a very good option because he has the Close qaureters fighting feat which allow him to make an AoO against me even though I have Improved grapple and whatever damage he does is added to his grapple check to resist being grappled. Close-Quarters Fighting does not grant you an AoO if you couldn't make one normally, such as in the case of a Frenzied Berserker who has been disarmed and doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike. I would find it extremely hard to believe that this Frenzied Berserker would actually have it, considering that he's only level 10 and already has five feats as it stands (four pre-req, Close Quarters Fighting), which is the maximum he could possibly have.
Maerdash 07-01-05, 12:54 AM	Close-Quarters Fighting does not grant you an AoO if you couldn't make one normally, such as in the case of a Frenzied Berserker who has been disarmed and doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike. I would find it extremely hard to believe that this Frenzied Berserker would actually have it, considering that he's only level 10 and already has five feats as it stands (four pre-req, Close Quarters Fighting), which is the maximum he could possibly have. I think your right, I assumed he had it because I assumed he had improved grapple, but that was because his grapple checks were fairly high, but he was armed and smacking me while I tried to grapple so that explains that............. :banghead:
Vaelan 07-01-05, 01:06 AM	Don't bother with the grapple. He'll probably still beat you since he has +10 to Strength. Trip him, disarm him, and throw his sword into the stands. He can't grapple you well enough to end the fight before his Frenzy ends, and he can't do enough damage with his fists to end the fight that soon either, especially if you keep tripping him. Any attempt to disarm you would be futile, considering the substantial penalties he would take. Once his Frenzy ends, he is exhausted and can only move at half speed, along with taking -6 to Strength and Dexterity. You should have the battle won shortly after.
Maerdash 07-01-05, 01:27 AM	Thanks for all the helpful advice eveybody, tommorrow is game day so We'll see how it turns out. I plan on trying a combination of disarm and trip and I'll be taking Phrennzy's advice to stick and move. Wish me Luck! :D
cvazi 07-01-05, 11:32 AM	The idea to make him waste his frenzies earlier in the day is probably the best. Yes, he just attacks whatever's around him until his frenzy is over, but if he's in a cell and can't get to you, you're fine. Any damage may provoke a frenzy, so keep a nice supply of rocks in your cell, and you should be fine. Of course, if he bends the bars of his cell with his enhanced Strength, does the same to your cell, and then gets to you after he's killed everyone else nearer to him and the officials aren't around...Ouch. Okay, maybe its not a perfect plan, but if the cells are good and strong, go for it. eep! destructive rage is a pre-req for FB!
Vaelan 07-02-05, 08:01 AM	eep! destructive rage is a pre-req for FB! That could definitely be a problem with the "waste his frenzies before the fight" tactic. That's +13 to his Strength check to break down anything between him and you just between that feat, Rage, and Frenzy. Brutal.
RaspK FOG 07-02-05, 08:15 AM	I still fail to understand something: don't people know that a straight one-on-one fight between characters of nearly equal level are always lethal?
Vaelan 07-02-05, 07:37 PM	I still fail to understand something: don't people know that a straight one-on-one fight between characters of nearly equal level are always lethal? Sure we do. Where was it stated or implied that we did not?
Shimmer01 07-03-05, 01:24 AM	This advice is coming from someone who at this moment is having problems in his party because of a Frenzy Beserker. First of all, his base atk is about +13 right? (I can't remember the lvs again while I'm posting). Now, lets say your DM gave him an 18 str and since he pretty much got 2 more points to spend, he put them in Str to give him 20 (+5). Rage and frenzy stack, give him a +10 to Str, thus making it 30 (+10). So, to hit you with a dagger, his attacks arre: +18, +13, +8, +16 (Rage /frenzy bonus atk, -2 from the highest atk value correct?). Even with combat expertise, he has to roll a 7 or higher to hit. And lets not forget about HIS power atk and Imporved power atk. Not to mention Deathless frenzy, so you won't be able to kill him until the frenzy is over. And if you hit him once he goes out of it, he goes right back into it again unless he makes the Will save (DC 20). What should you do? Since I can't control myself when I am in a frenzy (I've killed two party members so far), everyone runs or leaves bad guys in the room. Since this isn't an option, I say, try to just run. A full retreat of 60 ft is okay, with no AoO. But since his charge would be 60 ft, its almost pointless. So, take two free actions of 5 ft step backs (no AoO) and then full retreat. Thus, he can't hit you. I would try to stay away from close combat as much as possible. The power atks hurt because of his high str. Try the trip, but be weary of it. Beserkers are an almost busted class. Their weakness is the Will saves, but you don't have spells. BTW, my beserker is a Kobold :D
Vaelan 07-04-05, 01:58 AM	(Rage /frenzy bonus atk, -2 from the highest atk value correct?). Nope. You don't take any penalty on your additional attack. Even with combat expertise, he has to roll a 7 or higher to hit. Can't use combat expertise while Frenzying. So, take two free actions of 5 ft step backs (no AoO) and then full retreat. Thus, he can't hit you. If you take a 5' step, you cannot use any of your other actions to move that round. No withdrawing, no running, and definitely no taking another 5' step.
Silent Poet 07-04-05, 02:25 AM	Actually Shimmer, you cant rage or frenzy if you are fatigued...so the second frenzy is not important to the combat.
amethal 07-04-05, 07:47 AM	Once you've won, I'd follow the berserker's example and eat the body. Don't want him getting raised for another re-match.
Maerdash 07-04-05, 10:26 PM	MUWAHAHAHHA! Pounded the guy into the ground. Tactics? Improved disarm, threw his weapon at a gaurd that it killed :D , imroved trip from there on out, took my free hit, then got the hell outta dodge. Once his first frenzy was over I smashed him to the groung over and over and just beat him to a pulp, the party managed to save me from the arena the next day too! Thanks for all the help folks it made a world of difference. :D
Sparahawk 07-07-05, 12:31 PM	Know what else stacks with Rage and Frenzy ..... Berserk from the Berserker class in deities and demi-gods book :D it makes for a VERY destructive char :) Then of course when he goes epic wowoohoo Juggernaut MUHAHAHAHAHA gotta love the unstoppable ability ( +20 str ) :D
Mandarbgrim 07-07-05, 12:41 PM	Has someone mentioned bullrushing him into the spiked walls yet? It seems like it what spiked walls are intended for in such arena's.
Sparahawk 07-07-05, 01:14 PM	Know what else stacks with Rage and Frenzy ..... Berserk from the Berserker class in deities and demi-gods book :D it makes for a VERY destructive char :) Then of course when he goes epic wowoohoo Juggernaut MUHAHAHAHAHA gotta love the unstoppable ability ( +20 str ) :D I also forgot to mention this all also stacks with bear warrior's bear forms Imagine Half-orc Barbarian 6 Frenzied Berserker 9 Berserker 3 Bear Warrior 8 Juggernaut 1 (gotta have 23 BAB to go juggernaut i.e. lvl 25) UBER str bonuses rage = +4 Frenzy = +6 Berserk = +4 or +6 (dun remember off top of my head) Dire Bear form (bear warrior) = +16 unstoppable = +20 (for one shot) total of +50 str or +52 str BEFORE ability scores and racial adjustments :D :)