Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuruk 07-26-06, 03:44 PM	My group ended its last D&D session almost right after we level'd up. We were discussing what classes and stuff we were going to be focusing on since we are now at the point where we are thinking of prestiging/cross classing(party is lvl 7-8). It's a small party, myself and two other people. I'm playing a Wizard who is going to be taking a few levels of Mindbender, mostly as fluff, he specializes in Enchantment spells already. The Ninja has cross classed as a Cleric (Odd, I knowf). And the Barbarian has decided to take levels in Frenzied Berserker... The other player and I talked to the Barbarian player out of game, saying he should definitely look over the class, it could become a real pain for us as well as associated NPCs, etc. The player was adamant about taking the class, even though the DM was a bit skeptical on it. As a low hit point Wizard this is making me a bit nervous. At the end of a tough fight, if he is still frenzied, my character could easily be taken out. What makes me even more worried, is the fact that I have absolutely nothing that can stop the Berserker if he starts to attack us. The DM and the Barbarian player both play a LARP, one of the classes from the LARP is Celt. They decided to bring the class into the DM's world. The advantage of the Celt race is they are immune to all Arcane magic (Divine still affects them). My enchantment spells will have no affect on the character, he's immune to my damage spells as well. The only possible thing he may fall prey to are illusions. What I'm looking for are ways that we might be able to contain the character if he is still frenzied after combat or basically whenever he turns on the party. I really don't want to turn this into Party vs. Berserker. Also, I've known the DM and the Ninja/Cleric player for a long time, so I really don't want to get suggestions to leave the group, its only the one character thats the real problem.
Kapalen 07-26-06, 03:50 PM	DOn't leave the group but you could have your character leave the party. Try to convince the ninja to follow suit. Why would you guys adventure with someone who could kill you at the drop of the hat?
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-26-06, 04:00 PM	Immune to all arcane magic.... riiiiight. :rolleye2: So, the guy playing a busted race wants to play a frenzied berserker. Well, what with his race he can afford to delay a bit, he's in little danger. He can wait for frenzied berserker a bit -- long enough to pick up Endurance if he doesn't already have it, and then Steadfast Determination to use his Con mod on Will saves instead of his Wis mod. If he refuses to be responsible like that, you're going to need to use something to stay out of his reach - Levitate or Fly for example. If he's going off too easily, each day you take to the air where you can't reach you, then hit him with a ranged weapon until he goes off, exhaust all his frenzies for the day before he can come up with one unexpectedly. If he wises up and agrees to get his Will saves under control, you only need to do this till he makes it happen. If he doesn't agree to get himself under control, you'll just need to do this until you become able to cast Telekinesis, then drop a very large stone on him from very high up while he sleeps, and see how he likes 20d6 falling object damage. Keep some illusions ready. If an emergency situation occurs where he's frenzied and out of enemies and you have to divert his attention immediately, several "new enemies" should be able to keep him busy. Hint - use illusions of incorporeal creatures - his attacks passing right through them won't give him automatic disbelief, as that'd be totally normal if they were real.
danielinthewolvesden 07-26-06, 04:17 PM	This can be an OOC problem. Talk to all the players, and the DM. Express your concerns. As Kapalen pointed out- a party doesn't have to allow a FB in it. The party (IC) can just say "No thanks". You might point this out.... nicely.... but only if the above OOC discussion is going badly. :D
Issabella 07-26-06, 04:42 PM	Oh good cause its been a few weeks since this topic crawled back up from the depths of hell. Next week I plan to do my FB with a KATTANA! thread just to beat a dead horse. For those who missed the last dozen paged thread drama fest let me see if I can remember all the salient points. 1-A bunch of people will accuse the Frenzied Beserker of being nothing more then selfish min maxing who puts personal power ahead of role playing and the joys of a group. 2-They will be shouted at by a differnt bunch who claims the FB is perfectly balanced and its the responsibility of the rest of the party to devout their recources to "contain" the FB as they would be happy to have a hair trigger psycopath in their party. 3-The people from point 1 will argue roleplaying wise as to why should a party devout rescources and put their lives on the lines to dealing with a FB. 4-the Point 2 group will counter argue that the people from point one are meta gaming and using out of player knowledge to what a FB can and can not do and thus are bad players! 5-General argument over skill checks and knowledges that prove/disprove who knows what, when and how some one knows. 6-name calling and heated gibberish. 7-people offer feats and item combos from books printed by their great uncle fred and beyond that negate/enhance the FB. 8-Thread thankfully dies a mewling death and drifts off the front page for a weeks.
Kradlo 07-26-06, 04:44 PM	Your GM allowed a PC race that is immune to arcane magic? What was he thinking?!? That alone tells me that the GM needs to do some serious rethinking. I don't care what the Level Adjustment is, that's a broken race. Couple this with the Celt becoming a Frenzied Berserker, and it's not a question of if he kills the rest of the party, it's when. This forum has endless threads on the FB, and they all seem to have stories that end in, "And then the Frenzied Berserker killed us," or, "We killed the FB in his sleep before he could kill the rest of us." There are various ways to defuse the ticking time bomb that is the FB, but none are truly foolproof. Your Celt being immune to arcane magic removes a number of those possible safeguards. Your GM is under no obligation to allow any prestige class to the PCs that he finds to be a problem. Frenzied Berserker is a problem. When the guards take potshots at the FB through arrow slits, he's going to frenzy, and you'll be the only available targets. My advice is, talk the player out of taking Frenzied Berserker levels. If he remains adamant, politely ask your GM to prohibit the class. If that fails, shrug your shoulders, smile nicely, accept it in good graces... and then coup-de-grace the Celt while he sleeps. If anyone objects, tell them you tried to do it nicely first, but they left you no other choice.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-26-06, 04:51 PM	:smirk: Why yes, my great uncle Fred did print Player's Handbook II, however did you guess? ;) BTW - everyone who can get their hands on Player's Handbook II should have it, that book is very nice. The crunchy bits are sweet for plugging holes in a character (like the Will save problem of most warriors, or the tendency of familiar-using mages to have their familiars die and lose them xp if they try the Deliver Touch Attack option), and the fluffy bits are awesome when you find yourself stuck in a rut trying to flesh out a character's identity. Also the art is great. :D Savage Lidda... :inlove: Warlord Krusk :gah:
Dolo 07-26-06, 05:33 PM	Oh man take the advice that was offered here but I would find out what IMMUNE means in that game. Cause if the DM rules that immune means he can shrug off even illusions you better keep 2 fly's or several scrolls of overland flight/fly on tap cause its the only that will keep you alive. Also have those cleric commands ready on tap.
King_Bulba 07-26-06, 05:34 PM	The FB isn't the problem, they rarely are with arcane spell casters... Get a wand of grease and the FB will never hurt anyone. I never fear a FB even if it is thrown at me. It is fun to look at the 20 HD FB immobalized by a first level spell LOL. Have a wonderous item made that casts grease if there is an emergancy and you need to disable him. 1st level spell should be pretty cheap. The problem appears to be an inexperianced DM. A PC class that is immune to arcane magic is incredably powerfull. I can see arcance spell resistance but even that is powerful even if it is a low level resistance. You need to remove these classes imo. You need to talk to your DM and group. Remove all house rules, then make new ones as a whole that you think make sense and that are balanced. A DM should not just make up new rules because he is a DM. If he says "its my game" then I would leave and not look back. My group talkes about rules (often) and one of our houserules is free weapon finnese, since if you are profcient in a weapon you should be able to use it correctly, like a rapier using dex. Summery, talk to you group and find if they agree with you that his house rules/classes are imbalanced and do a house rule intervention. If you come as a united front he will back down most likely. If he doesn't change then I would get someone else to DM or DM yourself.
Kuruk 07-26-06, 05:53 PM	To all the incredulous remarks of "Immune to magic!?" it gets better, there was no LA. My character has no knowledge that all of a sudden the Barbarian will now have the possibility of attacking them when he frenzies (He'd assume the Barbarian had just gone into a rage), so I'm going to have to act shocked, surprised, and hopefully manage to survive. After that I can actually do something about the character. There has always been tension between my character and the other because the Barbarian likes to play with my spellbooks... I'm going to take your suggestions and keep a few fly/gaseous form spells ready to go at all times, and I'll burn out his Frenzies with my crossbow if need be. I think it is just going to come down to leaving that character behind, we have enough problems acting against us from outside the party, I don't really want to worry about problems inside it as well.
Dwarven_Jihad 07-26-06, 07:14 PM	Use the cheese to your advantage; prestige into something and declare it's immune to all melee damage. What's good for the Barbarian is double-plus-good for the Wizard :) Or prepare ahead of time...if illusions will work (no reason they wouldn't, you're not casting them *on* him), then cast fly on yourself, and "run" away from him over the "solid ground" illusion that conceals the edge of the 500-foot cliff.... Or just eliminate that stupid freakin' rule that makes frenzied berserkers attack party members.
danielinthewolvesden 07-26-06, 08:00 PM	My character has no knowledge that all of a sudden the Barbarian will now have the possibility of attacking them when he frenzies (He'd assume the Barbarian had just gone into a rage), so I'm going to have to act shocked, surprised, and hopefully manage to survive. But YOU do. Talk to the rest of the players, including the DM and the FB player. Try it.
Reversefigure4 07-26-06, 09:11 PM	The FB isn't the problem, they rarely are with arcane spell casters... Get a wand of grease and the FB will never hurt anyone. I never fear a FB even if it is thrown at me. It is fun to look at the 20 HD FB immobalized by a first level spell LOL. Have a wonderous item made that casts grease if there is an emergancy and you need to disable him. 1st level spell should be pretty cheap. I'm unfamiliar with the exact text of the FB's abilities, but if it's anything like the Barbarian's rage, Grease won't stop it. Barbarians can use Balance just fine when raging.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-26-06, 09:16 PM	I'm unfamiliar with the exact text of the FB's abilities, but if it's anything like the Barbarian's rage, Grease won't stop it. Barbarians can use Balance just fine when raging. It's not. Frenzied berserkers lose access to every Dex, Int, and Cha-based skill, save Intimidate.
Kuruk 07-26-06, 09:19 PM	To danielinthewolvesden- Myself and the Ninja player have already tried appealing to the DM and the FB player. The player wanted to take it at 6th level, he had the requirements then, and we managed to convince him it was a bad idea. He wants to take it now and doesn't look like he's going to step down. (BTW, that comment you quoted me on was directed to the suggestions of how to deal with it in game, not feigning ignorance out of game.) I will talk to the group whenever we get together again, and try to change that player's mind.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-26-06, 09:32 PM	The player wanted to take it at 6th level, he had the requirements then, and we managed to convince him it was a bad idea. He can't have had the requirements then. At very earliest, you can get into Frenzied Berserker at 7th level -- the requisite +6 BAB necessitates at least 6 HD/levels at full BAB advancement before you take your first level of Frenzied Berserker. He wants to take it now and doesn't look like he's going to step down. (BTW, that comment you quoted me on was directed to the suggestions of how to deal with it in game, not feigning ignorance out of game.) I will talk to the group whenever we get together again, and try to change that player's mind. I think you need to think less about how you're going to deal with a frenzied berserker specifically, and more about how you're going to deal with the <blatant cheating/rampant ignorance/both> that's going on in your group. This situation just keeps on sounding like it can only ever get worse, unless someone slams on the brakes and imposes a major change of direction.
Kuruk 07-26-06, 10:44 PM	To Shaggy-Shaggs- Sorry, poor wording on my part. He was level 6 when he told us his plans to go into Frenzied Berserker (for his 7th level), he'd just finished taking the feats at level 6. Didn't proofread that before I posted it, it is misleading. As to the other stuff going on in the group, ya some of it is kinda funky. I'm hoping I can chalk it up as inexperience on the DM's part, and hopefully the game will settle into the norm after a few more sessions or at the very least, this campaign.
Ashok_Lal 07-26-06, 11:31 PM	What have YOU done to ****of the DM. He wants you dead!! & he is using another player to help him. Making a race immune to arcane magic has got to be the most STUPID!!!!!!! thing I have ever heard. If this is what he thinks is a fair thing ***** him off, join a difrent group, just get away from the MORON. As for dealing with the FB wait till he goes into a rage then you & the Ninja just run off. Don't stick around to help him. Hopefully the FB will be killed with out you doing anything. If the player complains about being abandoned to his death tell him it's the only safe place to be for everybody. If you stayed you would have to defend yourselves, leading to the FB death or TPK (probably). (Well obvesly the Wizard could not defend himself) but maybe buff the Ninja to do the job. In anycase oneday a party member WILL kill another party member & players will be angry. I'm willing to bet he needs atleast a 16 on the flop to save from the rage. Kill him hard & fast. Let his feeling be hurt. Don't look back. If the DM says anything put the onus back on him. "You left us no choice you put a bazerker who cant tell the diferance between freind or foe. Then you make him immune to things that could restrain him from killing us. Just think on that for a while" Ask for a race that is immune to damage. Seems fair!! Good luck you will need it.
Bopple 07-27-06, 03:15 AM	It is if you can stop FB 'in time', not if you can stop FB. What if FB acts just ahead of grease wand wielder? He can smash a party member or an important NPC, in no time. Or are you going to idle your precious combat rounds, greasing FB, even before BBEG is killed? No. No. No. FB is out of control, unless DM plays a loose/metagaming campaign. And immune to the whole arcane magic? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
Ront Iron-Roar 07-27-06, 05:14 PM	Define the arcane immunity? I mean why not use a good old Otiluke's Resilient Sphere?
WolfHati 07-27-06, 05:25 PM	Well, your characters don't know that the FB character has just recently lost the ability to control himself in combat. He's going to end up dead the first time he attacks something that isn't an enemy, because everyone else will think that he's betraying them. Well, that or everyone else is going to be dead. Either way it is a bad idea. Please point that out. I have actually seen a FB played decently once, but that involved a large amount of backstory, not a sudden change into a prestige class.
King_Bulba 07-27-06, 06:15 PM	It's not. Frenzied berserkers lose access to every Dex, Int, and Cha-based skill, save Intimidate. Thanks for doing the grunt work and looking up the text. Yeah FBs akilies heel is the inability to use dex checks. If you cast grease then it should work because it has no spell resistance check. You are creating real grease like summoning a griffon is real even if it only lasts 30 seconds, it isn't illusionary so his immunity wouldn't work. Not that he should have that immunity anyways. When you use a FB it's all about tactics, the danger can be minimized. It's like when you have no cleric or druid in the party. You need to adapt to avoid getting hurt or you will die. Same goes with grouping with a FB. It is possible to do it well even if you dont want to admit it. Not adapting to the situation like fighting next to him means death.
Bawlzie 07-27-06, 06:20 PM	Immune to arcane is one of the cheapest things i have ever herd of for a PC. I have played an FB and have witnessed how much damage they can inflict.... to everyone... But there are ways to make it less likely that he will attack you or your party members. Point out that he could kill everyone in sight quite easily if he doesn't play it right. Suggest he take the "Steadfast Determination" feat or at least "Iron will". Say he should play the extra damage and try not to take damage unless in frenzy and to wait in tell a big battle to (willfully) activate Frenzy. If he plays it right he probably wont get a chance to hurt anyone so long as you cast grease or some illusion or even just fly away. ... If his race is immune to arcane damage like you said, why don't you work with that? Throw a fireball at him and kill everything around him so he doesn't get damaged and kill you guys, Any AoE spell would help if he cant be damaged by them it only help. Just don't use it to help him kill stuff in Frenzy or he might still kill you guys.
King_Bulba 07-27-06, 06:28 PM	Immune to arcane is one of the cheapest things i have ever herd of for a PC. I have played an FB and have witnessed how much damage they can inflict.... to everyone... But there are ways to make it less likely that he will attack you or your party members. Point out that he could kill everyone in sight quite easily if he doesn't play it right. Suggest he take the "Steadfast Determination" feat or at least "Iron will". Say he should play the extra damage and try not to take damage unless in frenzy and to wait in tell a big battle to (willfully) activate Frenzy. If he plays it right he probably wont get a chance to hurt anyone so long as you cast grease or some illusion or even just fly away. ... If his race is immune to arcane damage like you said, why don't you work with that? Throw a fireball at him and kill everything around him so he doesn't get damaged and kill you guys, Any AoE spell would help if he cant be damaged by them it only help. Just don't use it to help him kill stuff in Frenzy or he might still kill you guys. :bow: If you must play by this dudes rules... Might as well exploit them.
Kradlo 07-27-06, 06:33 PM	I still say it's a matter of when he kills the rest of the party, not if. Any time the Frenzied Berserker takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source (Complete Warrior pg 34). He'll need a Will save of 10 + damage taken to avoid going into frenzy. That's a hair trigger on a live grenade, and he's in your group. Oh, and he's also immune to arcane magic, so you're limited as to what you can do to restrain him. The grease spell is a good choice, so long as the surface is flat and level. If you're on an incline, he's going to slide down and unless there's a wall, he'll slide right out of the area of effect. This also assumes that you have initiative on your comrade, or you're toast. The thing is that there are so many ways to send your friend into a killing frenzy without warning that sooner or later he's going to do it when you're unprepared, and then you're lunch meat. I still say coup de grace the guy in his sleep, or nuke the planet from orbit. It's the only way to be safe.
malignor 07-27-06, 07:31 PM	Some good ol' Monster Summoning to give him some fodder to waste is always a good thing. Summon them to help in the fight. Then if the FB needs to shed some more blood, there's the expendable summoned beasties there to soak up attacks while you fly away or turn invisible, using potions from HIS share of the loot - it's an FB's job to protect his friends from himself. I think he should supply you guys with a wand or two of Summon Monster III or Summon Nature's Ally III (geared to only summon 1d4+1 creatures from the level 1 list). Then the enemy will contend with the FB, PLUS an army of annoying little critters. Be sure to scatter them about so the FB can't cleave them all in one swing. Honestly, someone who's big into summoning would really help out here. Got a Druid? Conjuration specialist? Alienist? And just because of the cheese factor of this "Arcane Immunity" crap... even I, who am all for the FB (a loud supporter even), would kill this moron's character in his sleep. I hate cheesy imported junk that makes things more complicated.
zxsmasher 07-27-06, 08:00 PM	Really. I've researched the FB and my more experienced friend, who also happens to be my party's GM, gave me a useful hint for the very same problem you are having. I'll have to ask him about it, but there is a feat somewhere that allows the FB (or any raging class) to distinguish friend from foe while frenzying. Problem solved..almost. We just have to find the feat's name.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-27-06, 08:10 PM	I don't know the specifics of the feat or class feature or whatever it is you're speaking of, zxsmasher, but iirc from discussions of it, it's in BoED and requires you to be Exalted. Look there.
Kuruk 07-27-06, 08:48 PM	Allright, thanks for all the tips and advice so far. I have Craft Wondrous Item already so next time my character is in a city I'll whip up some trinket to cast Grease so I always have a backup, since that seems to be the simplest way to immobolize the FB in a tight spot.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-27-06, 08:55 PM	Allright, thanks for all the tips and advice so far. I have Craft Wondrous Item already so next time my character is in a city I'll whip up some trinket to cast Grease so I always have a backup, since that seems to be the simplest way to immobolize the FB in a tight spot. Note you will need to cast this directly under the FB. Most berserkers worth their salt will have a good deal of Jump ranks to qualify for Leap Attack (the berserker's best friend), as well as high Str which aids Jump checks, and if you just drop the Grease between you and the berserker as a roadblock, he'll jump over it on his way to flatten you with a charge.
Ashok_Lal 07-27-06, 09:52 PM	You can just cast Grease, summon monster, or some other spells that might work. BUT what Wizard wants to just remember spells that stop another party member eg Ninja; "cast your______ spell" Wizard "Can't, i only memorized grease & summon spells to calm down the FB" FB "grrrr roar splutter spluter crunch"
Ashok_Lal 07-27-06, 10:01 PM	If your Wizard servives long get high level (10-12) prep polymorph self (ogre), bigbys oposing hand, shield bulls str, grearter magic weapon, shield, & last of all Tensers transformation & show the FB what it feels like to be brutaly beaten to a pulp. (Mooarhaa ha ha ha haaaa)
tizonacampeador 07-27-06, 10:37 PM	If your DM thinks that a race immune to arcane spells is fair. Then get a nice copy of Races of Faerun and show him the Urdinnar dwarf; surely the ability to move through stone at will and to shape stone and metal at will isnt worth any LA either. Then just make an Urdinnar character and when he starts to attack you guys just slip underground. For more fun while underground use a touch attack to pull him under. Your choice from there let him suffocate or let him breath. It's quite effective against enemies as well. Not only that but with this DM that character won't be banned like Urdinnar often are.
King_Bulba 07-28-06, 02:04 AM	Note yu will need to cast this directly under the FB. Most berserkers worth their salt will have a good deal of Jump ranks to qualify for Leap Attack (the berserker's best friend), as well as high Str which aids Jump checks, and if you just drop the Grease between you and the berserker as a roadblock, he'll jump over it on his way to flatten you with a charge. When you cast grease on the floor under someone they have to make an immediate balance check which he auto fails. Then he is prone and needs to make a balance check to move, which he can't make. Can you jump when you are prone? Not to my knowledge... Thinking logicly there is no friction to jump and even if your standing it wouldnt work, but RAW doesn't always follow logic. I know I and my DM wouldnt allow it. The FB is traped on the floor. I am not saying this is fullproof. As someone else said if they are on an incline that is steap enough they will slide off. That is why you have other options at the table. True having one is a calculated risk but so is adventuring. It is only a matter of time before you die going out adventuring that doesnt mean you shouldnt adventure, it just means you need to take precausions.
TarlSS 07-31-06, 02:03 PM	Instead of cheap rules tactics to deal with the thing IC, realize what the problem is OOC. Use cheap negotiation tactics instead. And then lay down the gauntlet. Arcane Immune PRCs and Frenzied Berserkers are optional poorly thought rules. Draw up a written proposal, and stick it in front of their faces. " We will not play with the Celt or the Frenzied Berserker or anything that is immune to entire subsets of magic or mechanically inclined to kill the party." Ask them if it is worth it for them to lose a player so they can have their stupid house-ruled templates and their psycopathic PCs. Let them know that you could have waited through the game, and then ruined it by turning it into a bitter PVP match. If they realize what the stakes are, House Rules or a fellow gamer, then they have two options. They can accept your ultimatum and play the game normally, or they can look like asshats because they foisted off a perfectly reasonable player for the sake of poorly thought out and untested houserules. Put the onus on them to -kick you out-. You will not quit quietly. Unless they never wanted you in the first place, they're not going to enjoy getting rid of you.
erc1971 08-01-06, 12:21 PM	Take the FB to a big city. Stay there, don't leave, don't go adventuring. Then, get him into lots of taverns. Just wait. Eventually something will happen that sets him off and he goes on a murderous rampage. He may kill a few town guards, but they will eventually wear him down, especially after his rage wears off. Then, when he is making a new character, smack him on the head with the sharpest corner of his Complete Warrior.