Post/Author/DateTime	Post
raidzuo 10-21-06, 06:58 PM	We have a frenzied berserker in our party. He had two rounds of rage left after everyone was dead, and dealt over 100 damage to the party; almost killing us, and nearly dying himself. Is there a solution to this? Solutions that work: - FB has high will saves (steadfast determination, Iron will, high Constituion), and can end the Frenzy (DC 20 will save). - Creating something for him to attack (illusion, monster etc.). - Casting grease spell underneath the FB (can't use dex based skills). Watch him flail around in KY jelly. Solutions that mght work (Why not? He can make a will save to stop the frenzy). - FB Dropping his weapon, and grappling. - FB Willingly failing a saving throw against calm emotions (or anything else). - Player making a "perform: acting" check to stand perfectly still.
Cifer 10-21-06, 07:11 PM	- Dropping his weapon, and grappling a random PC (instead of attacking it). - Dropping his weapon, and punching a random PC. - Willingly failing a saving throw (against sanctuary, etc.) - Being told that there's one enemy left -- but he's in your head! Every single one of them would have a massive problem: The FB wants to kill his party when there is noone else around. Not playing this out to the fullest (=full attacks and charges with the most lethal thing around) means the same thing as ignoring a Dominate Person.
Crimsonrhino 10-21-06, 07:16 PM	Yup, I didnt let one of my players play a FB because I know he'd end up killing the party. A pure blooded mountain orc FB hammering on a sorceror. You do the math.
X-Codes 10-21-06, 07:25 PM	Tome of Battle has two manuvers: Iron Heart Surge and Moment of Perfect Thought. Iron Heart Surge lets you end a Frenzy with a standard action, and Moment of Perfect Thought can keep you from using a Frenzy when there are no enemies around (i.e. you get hit by a trap). Tome of Battle essentially breaks the Frenzied Berserker.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 07:31 PM	Every single one of them would have a massive problem: The FB wants to kill his party when there is noone else around. Not playing this out to the fullest (=full attacks and charges with the most lethal thing around) means the same thing as ignoring a Dominate Person. From the CW: She must then attack the nearest creature (determined randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or her own). It just says attack. It doesn't say full attack -- and she wouldn't relentlessly pursue the first target she sees and obliterate it, because you can force her to attack different targets each round by moving back; making her attack the next closest person (not you). All I see is a simple parameter: attack nearest target. Nothing more. I don't see: "can't grapple" or "can't willingly fail will save". To see that, you have to expand on the instructions given to you.
Wayside 10-21-06, 07:52 PM	You are missinterprating the text then. During the frenzy the character has no reason to want to voluntarily fail a save, so they won't. If they fail the saving throw to avoid attacking their allies then they truly percieve them as enemies and will do everything they can to kill them. Even if this means charging and full powerattacking the mage, or using a full attack on the fighter. Yes, if the berserker dosn't know something is an illusion they will attack it, but will most likely promptly realize it is not. Hold person, dominate, etc... are all valid methods of taking the berserker out, though they may not voluntarily fail the save. A clever use of grease can be thrown down since berserkers cannot balance while frenzied and so cannot move while standing in grease. I as a DM rule the berserker to be able to get out of the grease, so it is up to your DM, but by game rules all the berserker would be able to do is flail around in the grease. All frenzied berserkers should invest in the iron will feat, high wisdom, and an item to raise there saving throw in order to have a good chance of ending it on their own.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 08:04 PM	You are missinterprating the text then. During the frenzy the character has no reason to want to voluntarily fail a save, so they won't. If they fail the saving throw to avoid attacking their allies then they truly percieve them as enemies and will do everything they can to kill them. Even if this means charging and full powerattacking the mage, or using a full attack on the fighter. Yes, if the berserker dosn't know something is an illusion they will attack it, but will most likely promptly realize it is not. Hold person, dominate, etc... are all valid methods of taking the berserker out, though they may not voluntarily fail the save. A clever use of grease can be thrown down since berserkers cannot balance while frenzied and so cannot move while standing in grease. I as a DM rule the berserker to be able to get out of the grease, so it is up to your DM, but by game rules all the berserker would be able to do is flail around in the grease. All frenzied berserkers should invest in the iron will feat, high wisdom, and an item to raise there saving throw in order to have a good chance of ending it on their own. Actually you have this backwards. The description is so simple, that there is no room for misinterpretation -- but is defintely found wanting. So far everyone here is saying that Frenzy does things is clearly does not say. It doesn't say he perceives his friends as enemies! It only says he wants to attack them even if they are friends. As I pointed out before, he doesn't pursue targets (something you would normally do if you were attacking an enemy). He attacks the closest creature. Simple parameter. It's not my fault I can see the description objectively. Maybe the creator of FB should have been more clear on his description. Or maybe it's exactly as he intended... That grease thing is a great idea.
Otto the Bugbear 10-21-06, 08:07 PM	The DM says this, "FB can choose to not attack his friends." Problem solved.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 08:25 PM	The DM says this, "FB can choose to not attack his friends." Problem solved. The Dm didn't (or will never) say that. It doesn't solve the problem. Thanks anyway :(
Reversefigure4 10-21-06, 08:31 PM	The DM says this, "FB can choose to not attack his friends." Problem solved. The DM can indeed say "The FB no longer has any drawbacks." Of course, the DM can also say "The Wizard no longer has spells per day, he can cast an infinite amount of times", and solve the problem of a wizard running out of spells when he's used them up.
Otto the Bugbear 10-21-06, 09:00 PM	Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=484633&page=3) is a really good thread concerning the FB. In it, I discuss why removing the drawback of attacking your friends would be a quite acceptable change. As for helping with the situation at hand, you have two choices. 1. Play a sane character and ditch the FB (the character, not the player) 2. Accept that there are very few ways to actually reign in a FB. As far as I know, there is only one single sure-fire way to do it. The Trident of Serenity found in a FR accessory (which I can't remember) can be wielded by a party member, and within a certain radius, it supresses rage and similar emotional effects. Good luck with whichever method you choose. Is ther a solution to this? I came up with the fllowing: - Dropping his weapon, and grappling a random PC (instead of attacking it). - Dropping his weapon, and punching a random PC. - Willingly failing a saving throw (against sanctuary, etc.) - Being told that there's one enemy left -- but he's in your head! Attack to the best of his ability cannot involve the first one, "instead of attacking it" Dropping a weapon is also right out unless his punch is the best of his ability. Willingly failing a save isn't attacking to the best of his ability. Especially when you look at "without regard for friendship". The last one is ... silly. I have another question. It says the fenzied berserker must attack the nearest "creature". Does that mean she won't attack golems? If she can attack golems, would she attack an animated wooden dummy -- or an illusion? Golems are creatures of the (construct) type, as listed in the monster manual. In D&D the word "creature" doesn't mean "living". Think of undead, plants, constructs and such. Wooden dummies are not creatures (unless animated). Illusions work until the will save to disbelieve is made. Then you have to have it up and running before your character becomes little bloody chunks. Cheers Otto :)
raidzuo 10-21-06, 09:34 PM	Attack to the best of his ability cannot involve the first one, "instead of attacking it" Dropping a weapon is also right out unless his punch is the best of his ability. Willingly failing a save isn't attacking to the best of his ability. Especially when you look at "without regard for friendship". The last one is ... silly. Where is everyone getting this "Attacking to his best ability" excerpt? it does not say that. Ever! Thanks for the that thread. Very insightful.
Shaggy_Shaggs 10-21-06, 09:42 PM	Where is everyone getting this "Attacking to his best ability" excerpt? it does not say that. Ever!Wrong. It actually says that at the very beginning of the paragraph you excerpted from. Either you massively failed a Spot check, or you're being disingenuous. ;) During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or her own).
raidzuo 10-21-06, 09:55 PM	Wrong. It actually says that at the very beginning of the paragraph you excerpted from. Either you massively failed a Spot check, or you're being disingenuous. ;) I read it perfectly. It only states she attacks her enemies to the best of her ability. When she runs out of enemies, she attacks the nearest creature. These new targets are not her enemies. She does not have to attack them to the best of her ability, (unless the player wants the creature she is attacking to be an enemy). If frenzy worked the way you suggest it works, then the FB would never have a choice when determining to attack -- but because she can distinguish friend from foe, she does.
Shaggy_Shaggs 10-21-06, 10:10 PM	en·e·my (n-m) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "enemy" [P] n. pl. en·e·mies 1. One who feels hatred toward, intends injury to, or opposes the interests of another; a foe.Well, let's see.One who feels hatred towardProbably not, unless the party is rampantly anti berserker.intends injury toIf they fight back at all, yep.or opposes the interests of anotherRemaining alive would be opposing the current interests of the berserker, mmhmmm.a foeWell, I could start going through the entire dictionary breaking every word down to its component parts, but you get the idea. By the previous definitions, yes. Once the berserker turns, until he calms down or they're dead, the party members and any innocent bystanders that do anything but submit to death are his enemies.
Otto the Bugbear 10-21-06, 10:29 PM	I read it perfectly. It only states she attacks her enemies to the best of her ability. When she runs out of enemies, she attacks the nearest creature. These new targets are not her enemies. She does not have to attack them to the best of her ability, (unless the player wants the creature she is attacking to be an enemy). If frenzy worked the way you suggest it works, then the FB would never have a choice when determining to attack -- but because she can distinguish friend from foe, she does. A DM agreeing with this interpretation might as well just say, "FB can choose to not attack his friends." It amounts to basically the same thing.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 10:39 PM	Well, let's see.Probably not, unless the party is rampantly anti berserker.If they fight back at all, yep.Remaining alive would be opposing the current interests of the berserker, mmhmmm.Well, I could start going through the entire dictionary breaking every word down to its component parts, but you get the idea. By the previous definitions, yes. Once the berserker turns, until he calms down or they're dead, the party members and any innocent bystanders that do anything but submit to death are his enemies. please don't tell me your concept of a definition begins and ends with a single dictionary definition? That isn't even the point. The point is; it excplicitly states: that when you are out of enemies to attack, you attack the nearest creature. The word "enemy" is defined by the author. In that vein, whatever the FB is attacking after his enemies are dispatched are not enemies. They are merely the nearest creature. Breaking down the words of an arbitrary definition doesn't change the authors definition of enemy.
runestar 10-21-06, 10:47 PM	Or just try designating some fly in the air, or some ant on the ground as your enemy? Anything to keep you occupied until the frenzy abates.:)
Kradlo 10-21-06, 10:48 PM	Number one, you're a player, not the GM. You can try to think of solutions that you can take to deal with the situation, but it's not your interpretation of the Frenzied Berserker class features that counts; it that of your GM. It sounds like he's not bought into your hair-splitting arguments. It's obvious to your GM, and to everyone else on this forum so far, that the FB will attack his own party as enemies while in his frenzy. So, let's leave aside that issue, since it's already decided in that campaign. You have a rabid killing machine on the loose, and you want to know how to deal with him before he turns you into hamburger helper. Let's examine one proposal: Tome of Battle has two manuvers: Iron Heart Surge and Moment of Perfect Thought. Iron Heart Surge lets you end a Frenzy with a standard action, and Moment of Perfect Thought can keep you from using a Frenzy when there are no enemies around (i.e. you get hit by a trap). Iron Heart Surge is a Warblade 3 maneuver. It requires a standard action to use, which means that you can either use this maneuver or make an attack. The frenzy requires you to attack, so you can't use this maneuver. Moment of Perfect Mind is counter (an immediate action) that allows you to use Concentration in place of a Will save. While in a frenzy, you cannot use Concentration. One of the most common responses is to cast the spell grease. While in frenzy, the character cannot use Dex-based skills, which means no Balance checks. Read as written, the FB is stuck slipping and sliding until the spell expires or his frenzy ends. Keep in mind that Balance can be used by a barbarian in a state of rage, and so some GMs allow the same exceptions (Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride) while in frenzy. Make sure of your Game Master's interpretation before relying on grease. Also, many GMs rule that using grease on a sloped surface will cause the creatures to slide down and off the area of effect. This works nicely when the slope goes off a cliff. ;) The surest methods of protecting yourself from a frenzied berserker are: 1. Move to another continent. 2. Have dimension door prepared and use it when the last enemy drops. 3. Kill the FB in his sleep via coup de grace. This is best handled by people with lots of sneak attack dice, so ask the rogue to do it for you.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 10:48 PM	A DM agreeing with this interpretation might as well just say, "FB can choose to not attack his friends." It amounts to basically the same thing. No it does not. I did not interpret anything. I take the description very literally. You are expounding upon the description by saying that the FB suddenly considers his friends enemies when there are no enemies left. It never says this.
Shaggy_Shaggs 10-21-06, 10:48 PM	please don't tell me your concept of a definition begins and ends with a single dictionary definition? That isn't even the point. The point is; it excplicitly states: that when you are out of enemies to attack, you attack the nearest creature. The word "enemy" is defined by the author. In that vein, whatever the FB is attacking after his enemies are dispatched are not enemies. They are merely the nearest creature. Breaking down the words of an arbitrary definition doesn't change the authors definition of enemy.You're contradicting youself, kid. When you're informed of the rules as clearly intended, you counter rules as written, and then when you're shown rules as written are against you, you go back to claiming rules as intended support. Both what's literally written, and what's conveyed as the intent by the wording, are against you. You are wrong, deal with it.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 10:55 PM	Number one, you're a player, not the GM. You can try to think of solutions that you can take to deal with the situation, but it's not your interpretation of the Frenzied Berserker class features that counts; it that of your GM. It sounds like he's not bought into your hair-splitting arguments. It's obvious to your GM, and to everyone else on this forum... You are making a huge assumption here. First of all, I'm doing this on my own initiative. There has been no discussion between the Dm and I. Secondly, this is a query, not a biased statement or declaration of absolute truth. I'm posting this query to find a solution! As for everyone else in this forum? Maybe you should re-read the thread and weigh the ratio of people who agree to people who do not agree. ...so far, that the FB will attack his own party as enemies while in his frenzy. This has not yet been established, but nice try. So, let's leave aside that issue, since it's already decided in that campaign. Again: huge assumption. It has not. You have some really nice suggestions, but next time leave out your conjecture on our circumstance and motives. It's completely uneccesary.
Kradlo 10-21-06, 10:56 PM	I will amend one point that I made. Moment of Perfect Mind can be used to avoid entering a state of frenzy when taking damage, as the FB normally makes a Will save to control himself. With high ranks in Concentration, the FB might be able to keep his cool. Once he starts frothing, though, it's Katie bar the door.
Rhuell 10-21-06, 10:58 PM	All of you are reading the rules, but ignoring the concept. A frenzied berserker is NOT in his right state of mind when he frenzies PERIOD. You cannot argue against this. The FB goes into such intense focused rage and anger and madness that grants him ridiculous strength, but he can't stop it easily it's like poking a hole through a damn and then trying to plug it. This is ALSO why he or she can't use any DEX-based, CHA-based, or INT-based skills. HERE is the QUOTE: "During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determined randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or her own)." THERE is everyone happy? Straight from COMPLETE WARRIOR. If you doubt me check it: COMPLETE WARRIOR, page 35 on the left side of the page. "POTENTIAL FOES" includes the party members, therefor party members count as FOES while he or she is frenzying. NOW it states YOU HAVE TO ATTACK YOUR FRIENDS! DEAL WITH IT! You even have to attack a BABY if that is the closest creature. It doesn't matter to the FB because he is a killing machine, sentiment has NO bearing on the Berserker's actions. You can't avoid that period, there are NO "if"s, NO "an"s, and NO "but"s. If you want a way to avoid it then either A) Have a High enough WILL SAVE to end your frenzy voluntarily OR B) DON'T TAKE THE FRENZIED BERSERKER PRESTIGE CLASS! If you do then you have no choice one which creatures to attack once your real foes are dead. You WILL attack your buddies. If you want to see a REAL Frenzied Berserker in action get yourselves a copy of the anime "Record of Lodoss War" and watch for the character called "Orson". He wields a huge greatsword and he is the VERY definition of a Frenzied Berserker, because he even attacks his own friend when he goes loony! It's quite awesome. Anyway if you are looking for other solutions to end an FB....then here: 1) Have a bunch of SUMMON spells and summon all kinds of animals and stuff to take the hits for you while you run down the clock on the frenzy ability. 2) Get an ITEM of summoning for the same reason above. 3) Have your mage cast EFFECTIVE Hold Persons on the berserker. If he can't move it won't matter if he is raging frenzying or what. 4) BIGBY'S GRASPING HAND cause a powerful hand of FORCE to grapple the Berserker which can grapple without causing him any damage. Saving both him and you. 5) Use spells against the FB that require no save and drop stat points like INT, WIS, CHA, STR, or DEX, not Con, unless you wanna kill him. Remember if his STR hits 0 he can't move and falls limp, DEX 0=paralyzed/stands rigid, INT 0=can't think and in coma, WIS 0=nightmare-filled sleep, CHA 0=catatonic state. This means he'll be out of battle, but will require several days of rest to restore his lost stats. 6) Last resort (or first if you're evil :D) : DISINTEGRATE HIM!!!!!!! That is how I'd deal with the CLEAR AND OBVIOUS danger presented by a frenzied berserker. -Rhuell
raidzuo 10-21-06, 11:02 PM	You're contradicting youself, kid. Please cite me, or provide a reference. I can't respond to vague accusations. Please direct further insults to PM. You're going to get this thread closed. When you're informed of the rules as clearly intended, you counter rules as written, and then when you're shown rules as written are against you, you go back to claiming rules as intended support. Again, cite me please. As fo the description, I take it very literally. You might be taking it metaphorically. Maybe that's were we disagree. Both what's literally written, and what's conveyed as the intent by the wording, are against you. You are wrong, deal with it. I can't deciper the author's extended intent with such a brief description. Sorry. The only thing I can assume is that: If everyone was an enemy to the FB, then the FB could never chose a target -- but since he is able to determine friend from foe, not everyone he attacks is his enemy. Very simple.
Kradlo 10-21-06, 11:05 PM	Kid, I'll stand by my statements earlier. Your interpretation of the Frenzy state doesn't matter one whit, because you aren't the Game Master. I drew my conclusion on how he's interpreting it from your own post: We have a frenzied berserker in our party. He had two rounds of rage left after everyone was dead, and dealt over 100 damage to the party; almost killing us, and nearly dying himself. You started this point asking us for our views. If you don't like the answers we give, stop asking questions. A lot of us have been playing this game longer than you have. I've been playing it longer than you've been alive. And some of us can read the books and draw rational conclusions, instead of looking for loopholes and weasel ways to ignore the rules.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 11:07 PM	"POTENTIAL FOES" includes the party members, therefor party members count as FOES while he or she is frenzying. NOW it states YOU HAVE TO ATTACK YOUR FRIENDS! DEAL WITH IT! You even have to attack a BABY if that is the closest creature. It doesn't matter to the FB he is a killing machine sentiment has NO bearing on the Berserker's actions. You can't avoid that period, there are NO "if"s, NO "an"s, and NO "but"s. No one is arguing this. What I'm arguing is how he attacks his foes. I.E. a grapple. If you want to see a REAL Frenzied Berserker in action get yourselves a copy of the anime "Record of Lodoss War" and watch for the character called "Orson". He wields a huge greatsword and he is the VERY definition of a Frenzied Berserker, because he even attacks his own friend when he goes loony! It's quite awesome. This reference contradicts your initial argument. Orson satops raging when some chick hugs him. According to your previous statement, he would have rended her to shreds. Nice ideas BTW.
Sapp 10-21-06, 11:17 PM	This reference contradicts your initial argument. Orson satops raging when some chick hugs him. According to your previous statement, he would have rended her to shreds. She rolled a natural 20 on her grapple and he fumbled. Without freedom of movement or Weapon Supremacy, he was grappled and unable to use his weapon to rend her to shreds before the Frenzy wore off. He struggled a bit more, but kept rolling fumbles.
Shaggy_Shaggs 10-21-06, 11:18 PM	Well, in the interest of avoiding soiled diapers due to completely shredded posts, I'll just keep this brief and to the point.No one is arguing this. What I'm arguing is how he attacks his foes. I.E. a grapple. During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her abilityThe berserker's most effective attack form determines how he attacks his foes.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 11:18 PM	Kid, I'll stand by my statements earlier. Your interpretation of the Frenzy state doesn't matter one whit, because you aren't the Game Master. I drew my conclusion on how he's interpreting it from your own post: You started this point asking us for our views. If you don't like the answers we give, stop asking questions. Wake up! Your answers are fine. I have no problem with the answers. I never argued the solutions. What I have a problem with is your pointless assumptions. You got an axe to grind? Fine. Do it somewhere else. This thread is about solutions, not about you attempting to belittle someone. Stop hijacking it to tell us how you magically know my circumstances, and how long you've been playing D&D. A lot of us have been playing this game longer than you have. I've been playing it longer than you've been alive. And some of us can read the books and draw rational conclusions, instead of looking for loopholes and weasel ways to ignore the rules. More pointless assumptions -- and ad hominem does not bolster such a superficial argument. This thread is about stopping the FB, and possibly allowing him to grapple or punch instead of using his weapon. To be honest, I don't why you're so upset about that. Some more things I would like to address: - I'm looking a for a logical conclusion. If it does not work, then I will not use it. that is the purpose of this thread. - I have been Dm'ing for nearly 2 decades. - The rational conclusion is that the FB does not consider "the nearest creature" an enemy. He merely considers it an effigy to unleash his pent up rage upon. If you have been alive as long as you claim you have, please muster up some of that wisdom and stop making personal attacks usless conjectures. It doesn't answer any of our questions, and any seasoned "adult" would know that road leads nowhere. Thank you.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 11:20 PM	She rolled a natural 20 on her grapple and he fumbled. Without freedom of movement or Weapon Supremacy, he was grappled and unable to use his weapon to rend her to shreds before the Frenzy wore off. He struggled a bit more, but kept rolling fumbles. Oh c'mon, that's pushing it :D I have the movie right here. He's clearly trying to supress his rage because he loves her :P
raidzuo 10-21-06, 11:22 PM	Well, in the interest of avoiding soiled diapers due to completely shredded posts, I'll just keep this brief and to the point. The berserker's most effective attack form determines how he attacks his foes. I agree. My point is that he does not consider his allies enemies -- but effigys to unleash his rage upon; not unlike a punching bag. When this is the case, he does not have to attack the "nearest creature" as if it were an enemy. I hope that clarifies my point.
Shaggy_Shaggs 10-21-06, 11:23 PM	Um, kid? You're starting to throw a tantrum. Don't designate us as enemies and full attack us. ;) As for how the berserker can avoid TPKing, the answer has already been provided: get that will save up! A somewhat feat-intensive way to do it, but potentially good enough, is to grab Endurance and Steadfast Determination to use Con instead of Wis for Will saves, as well as Iron Will for a little extra boost, and then boosting Con enough to manage a +18 or better Will save mod. Natural 1 autofails anyway so there's no reason to go higher than +18 for a flat DC 20 end frenzy prematurely check. This has the added benefit of long frenzies when you need to keep going - more Con, more killing. Any time you're frenzied and need to quit, Will save and you've got a 95% chance of ending it. If not, try again next round, you won't stay frenzied long.
raidzuo 10-21-06, 11:32 PM	Um, kid? You're starting to throw a tantrum. Don't designate us as enemies and full attack us. ;) I'm in the same state of mind as I was when I created this thread. If you consider a well thought out and decisive answers a tantrum, then that's your loss. Please stop calling me a kid. I've said or done nothing to provoke that reaction. If anything, my responses are articulate and to the point. As for how the berserker can avoid TPKing, the answer has already been provided: get that will save up! A somewhat feat-intensive way to do it, but potentially good enough, is to grab Endurance and Steadfast Determination to use Con instead of Wis for Will saves, as well as Iron Will for a little extra boost, and then boosting Con enough to manage a +18 or better Will save mod. Natural 1 autofails anyway so there's no reason to go higher than +18 for a flat DC 20 end frenzy prematurely check. This has the added benefit of long frenzies when you need to keep going - more Con, more killing. That's actually the best solution I've seen so far. For some reason I was under the impression you couldn't voluntarily end the frenzy :P
Shaggy_Shaggs 10-21-06, 11:42 PM	That's actually the best solution I've seen so far. For some reason I was under the impression you couldn't voluntarily end the frenzy :PYes and no. You have the saving throw to avoid starting the frenzy when damaged, and the free action Will save at the beginning of each round to end it once it starts. Barring that, you're frenzied and killing and merciless and so forth.
X-Codes 10-22-06, 12:02 AM	Um, kid? You're starting to throw a tantrum. Don't designate us as enemies and full attack us. ;) He can't help it. Every thread I see him make gets locked because he starts flaming people who disagree with him. Iron Heart Surge is a Warblade 3 maneuver. It requires a standard action to use, which means that you can either use this maneuver or make an attack. The frenzy requires you to attack, so you can't use this maneuver. It's still worth taking to the DM. IMO this one is up to interpetation since a frenzy is both a detremental condition as well as a benefitial one. That's actually the best solution I've seen so far. For some reason I was under the impression you couldn't voluntarily end the frenzy So you admit to not actually reading the FB class. You cannot make a well thought out or decisive answer if you are lacking the information required to base such a statement, since your evidence supporting the statement is pure conjecture. I can tell that you are or have been involved in a logic class or debate team from your words, so theres no excuse for this error. Anyway, using Steadfast Determination to gain a +18 bonus is not hard. I'll assume level 7 for the first calculations: Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/FB 1 (the CO Boards' preferred entry to FB) 1) Base Will Save: +1 (+2 Fractional) 2) Max out starting Con. As a Frenzied Berserker, strength comes easily. 18 Con. 3) Greater Resistance spell (Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Sor/Wiz 4): +3 resistance bonus (all day) 4) Heroism (Bard 2, Sor/Wiz 3): +2 Morale bonus (long duration) 5) Bear's Endurance (Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Sor/Wiz 2): +4 Con (short duration) 6) Barbarian Rage: +2 Bonus Final Numbers: +1 Base, +6 Con, +3 Resistance, +2 Morale, +2 Rage: +14 bonus to Will saves. Only needs to work 1/day. At level 11, Greater Resistance becomes Superior Resistance and the Base Save increases to 2, resulting in a +18 bonus to Will Saves. No Iron Will required (hell, no items required either). Until then, you can evade him for a turn or two with a Grease spell.
AZNsupermarket 10-22-06, 12:40 AM	There is a feat in book of exalted deads that implies you would be able to maintain full control over yourself in a rage.
Cifer 10-22-06, 01:13 AM	There is a feat in book of exalted deads that implies you would be able to maintain full control over yourself in a rage. Noone debates that. However, there is an extreme difference between Rage and Rage Extended Mk2 Super Version aka Frenzy. To use again my favorite Star Wars quote: This bickering is pointless. If you want and can get it by your DM, Raidzuo, you can use your weapondropping, grappling or other stuff, despite not getting a single affirmative answer in this thread. I'm relatively sure none of the other posters will mind because they will most probably not be forced to play with you. Otherwise, there's a certain problem: Most of the spells that work against the berserker depend on will saves (e.g. Hold Person), meaning he will either have a will save that is so low he is unlikely to snap out of frenzy or one so high that a failure in ending the frenzy means doom for the party since he can't be controlled.
raidzuo 10-22-06, 01:22 AM	He can't help it. Every thread I see him make gets locked because he starts flaming people who disagree with him. I've made 50 threads. One was closed. How does 2% turn into 100%? -- and the thread was closed because people came in, and contributed nothing but insults. Sound familiar? So you admit to not actually reading the FB class. I'm not sure how you came to this conculsion. I quoted an excerpt from the CW in one of my initial statements. You cannot make a well thought out or decisive answer if you are lacking the information required to base such a statement, since your evidence supporting the statement is pure conjecture. This is a strawman argument. If you are referring to me not knowing about making a will save as a free action; it has absolutley nothing to do with my query as to wether a FB can grapple instead of attack. That's like me saying your post is invalid because you don't know what a balogna detection kit is. Anyway, using Steadfast Determination to gain a +18 bonus is not hard. He will have to wait 2 more levels to get that. I'm going to suggest that to him. Thanks.
raidzuo 10-22-06, 01:25 AM	Noone debates that. However, there is an extreme difference between Rage and Rage Extended Mk2 Super Version aka Frenzy. To use again my favorite Star Wars quote: This bickering is pointless. If you want and can get it by your DM, Raidzuo, you can use your weapondropping, grappling or other stuff, despite not getting a single affirmative answer in this thread. I'm relatively sure none of the other posters will mind because they will most probably not be forced to play with you. It's not pointless. We've established that it's a grey area. I have my answer. Because of that, I'm not even going to suggest it to the DM. As for me telling people how uneccesary it is to insult me with no provocation... that is absolutley neccessary. 80% of this thread is wasted because people have to swing their wiener around.
Cifer 10-22-06, 01:27 AM	We've established that it's a grey area. Did we?
Derren S. 10-22-06, 07:09 AM	It's not pointless. We've established that it's a grey area. We have establish that you decide to twist rules when they are beneficial to you, nothing more.
Otto the Bugbear 10-22-06, 08:17 AM	So you admit to not actually reading the FB class. I'm not sure how you came to this conculsion. I quoted an excerpt from the CW in one of my initial statements. For some reason I was under the impression you couldn't voluntarily end the frenzy That's actually the best solution I've seen so far. As far as I know, there is only one single sure-fire way to do it. The Trident of Serenity found in a FR accessory (which I can't remember) can be wielded by a party member, and within a certain radius, it supresses rage and similar emotional effects. Seems like one thing has been established here at least. Skimming without completely reading or comprehending can lead to problems. Oh, and typing without reading or remembering what a person is typing can lead to problems, too. Cheers Otto :)
bhu 10-22-06, 09:52 AM	Okay before the thread gets derailed by argument anymore, has anyone thought of invisibility? The FB wont attack you if he cant see you. Pool your money and buy some Potions of Invisibility, and wait for the moment it looks like your gonna need them. Chug and scatter. The duration of the potion will likely last longer than the amount of Frenzy he has. If your mage can cast third level spells cling to him immediately as it looks like the battles about to end, and have him cast Invisibility Sphere before running like hell. If he can cast 4th level spells try something like Rainbow Pattern. Failing that use low level Summon Monster spells, and send them to attack him. Just try to summon ones that wont do him too much harm, but that wont go down in one swing. If you have an Arcane Caster there are many ways to deal with a psycho who has a low will save. If the OP has no wizard or Bard...well gimme some time and I'll find something.
runestar 10-22-06, 09:55 AM	No one ever thought up hiding via rope trick?:P
Kradlo 10-22-06, 11:26 AM	I still favor the old "coup-de-grace while he's sleeping" approach. That or nuke the planet from orbit; it's the only way to be safe. :D
SunTzuWarmaster 10-22-06, 11:50 AM	Hiding via rope trick is a good call. I am reading this thread more for what a player playing as a FB can do not to kill the party. I always kinda assumed that they could take care of themselves when it ended (the rogue takes a good Hide check, the fighter has a potion/Ring of Invisibility (or dimension door, a potion of haste and runs away), the cleric has a few invisibility options as well as hold person, the wizard has quite a few options. What can the FB do to make it so they don't trigger all of those options? Amulet of Will +X, Iron Will, ect are okay, but are then any sure-fire ways to end the frenzy? (My DM ruled BoED out)
Derren S. 10-22-06, 11:53 AM	Not playing a frenzied berserker. Invisibility has the disadvantage that the FB is useless when the enemy is invisible. Even worse, when the enemy casts invisibility the FB then has to attack the party. That is actually the worst case scenario as the Fb now faces the choice of (trying) to end his frenzy, and be weakened for the rest of the battle or hope that the others make the enemy visible again and that he doesn't kill one of his party in that time.
DarknessEternal 10-22-06, 01:48 PM	The Concentration skill is forbidden for use during a Frenzy, so Moment of Perfect Thought isn't that useful.
Derren S. 10-22-06, 01:52 PM	The Concentration skill is forbidden for use during a Frenzy, so Moment of Perfect Thought isn't that useful. Its only useful for avoiding to go into frenzy.
lycanthrope0 10-22-06, 02:10 PM	the best answer to the FB is force cage a 4th or 5th level spell that has no save and last 1 hour per level and surrounds something/someone in a unbrakeable invisible cage of pure force so if you have the wizard cast that at the FB as the last enemy drops guess what he will be thier until his frenzy ends and once that happens the wizard can dismiss the spell ( i think) and you can go on about your other buisness
wonlee76 10-22-06, 02:34 PM	Here's a foolproof way to avoid killing an allie in a frenzy. Morning, Berserker intentionally goes into a frenzy. Repeat until he's out of frenzies for the day. Consider it his morning ritual of just "venting" against a rock or something while the party is a safe distance away (I suggest a rope trick if you have no animals with you). He returns to the camp posing no threat to frenzy on the group. Simple, elegant, and pretty much eviscerates a good chunk of the power of a FB but to keep the party safe, a small price to pay.
Derren S. 10-22-06, 03:27 PM	the best answer to the FB is force cage a 4th or 5th level spell that has no save and last 1 hour per level and surrounds something/someone in a unbrakeable invisible cage of pure force And costs 1500 gp per casting. Here's a foolproof way to avoid killing an allie in a frenzy. Morning, Berserker intentionally goes into a frenzy. Repeat until he's out of frenzies for the day. Consider it his morning ritual of just "venting" against a rock or something while the party is a safe distance away (I suggest a rope trick if you have no animals with you). He returns to the camp posing no threat to frenzy on the group. Simple, elegant, and pretty much eviscerates a good chunk of the power of a FB but to keep the party safe, a small price to pay. When you do that, why play a FB at all?
bhu 10-22-06, 03:36 PM	Hiding via rope trick is a good call. I am reading this thread more for what a player playing as a FB can do not to kill the party. I always kinda assumed that they could take care of themselves when it ended (the rogue takes a good Hide check, the fighter has a potion/Ring of Invisibility (or dimension door, a potion of haste and runs away), the cleric has a few invisibility options as well as hold person, the wizard has quite a few options. What can the FB do to make it so they don't trigger all of those options? Amulet of Will +X, Iron Will, ect are okay, but are then any sure-fire ways to end the frenzy? (My DM ruled BoED out) Not really. You can pretty much only end your Frenzy by making that will save, and pumping up your will save might mean that if you botch the roll and keep going the spellcasters might not be able to cast a spell to calm you down. The party really has to end the Frenzy for him or contain him via spells or just dimension door/illusion/teleport/etc outta there. You might consider making one party member insanely good at grappling. Odds are anyone palying a FB wont have a weapon useable in a grapple, and you can use the grapple monkey to pin him till he stops foaming.
AZNsupermarket 10-22-06, 05:08 PM	The question is if you rage and frenzy at the same time with BOED feat, are you still in control or do you get taken over by the frenzy?
Kradlo 10-22-06, 06:14 PM	As written, Righteous Rage only applies to rage, not frenzy. But, a GM could rule that it applies to frenzy as well. Keep in mind that this is an Exalted feat, which has very strict requirements for alignment. I've yet to see a Frenzied Berserker that came even close to meeting the requirements to be Exalted. Most were Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Evil, and just Chaotic I Don't Care Whom I Kill, Including You.
X-Codes 10-22-06, 08:33 PM	I've made 50 threads. One was closed. How does 2% turn into 100%? -- and the thread was closed because people came in, and contributed nothing but insults. Sound familiar? Actually, they tried to contribute, then you started insulting them. Don't point the finger at me because I didn't even see the thread until it was locked. Next: Invisibility. It's already been explained why Invisibility doesn't work. After that is the Thayan Knight/Red Wizard combo. In other words, the Frenzied Berserker takes levels in the Thayan Knight PrC (CWar) while the party Arcanist takes levels in the Red Wizard class (DMG). This is the evil approach, and automatically causes the FB to regain his senses any time the Red Wizard casts Calm Emotions. Dominate Person might not work, since the Protection/Magic Circle vs. Alignment spells are excellent low-level buffs and leaving your FB vulnerable to Dominate Person spells from other sources might not be a good idea.
wonlee76 10-22-06, 08:42 PM	When you do that, why play a FB at all? To avoid ******* off your own party by accidentally killing them. There are still a few class features for a FB that work outside of Frenzy. You still get the supreme power attack, die hard and supreme cleave ability to use. And simply put, using up all your frenzies in the morning away from your companions = 100% safe way to travel with a FB. All other options suggested here require DM discretion or still leaves open the possibility of critical failures on saves.
Rhuell 10-22-06, 10:17 PM	No one is arguing this. What I'm arguing is how he attacks his foes. I.E. a grapple. This reference contradicts your initial argument. Orson satops raging when some chick hugs him. According to your previous statement, he would have rended her to shreds. Nice ideas BTW. ACTUALLY, raidzuo he doesn't stop raging/frenzying when Cherise hugs him, I think you need to watch it again. He PASSES his WILL Save to end the frenzy voluntarily, then he collapses and THEN Cherise hugs him. He "passes the save" while he has locked blades with Cherise. He would have rended her if she wasn't also a DARN good swordswoman. Thanks for the kudos on the "nice ideas".
bhu 10-22-06, 11:03 PM	Not playing a frenzied berserker. Invisibility has the disadvantage that the FB is useless when the enemy is invisible. Even worse, when the enemy casts invisibility the FB then has to attack the party. That is actually the worst case scenario as the Fb now faces the choice of (trying) to end his frenzy, and be weakened for the rest of the battle or hope that the others make the enemy visible again and that he doesn't kill one of his party in that time. This is why the party turns invisible first :D
X-Codes 10-23-06, 12:29 AM	This is why the party turns invisible first :D So everyone except the berserker is invisible and he just gets mad at air? Right...
Iry 10-23-06, 02:45 AM	One amusing way to distract a Frenzied Berzerker is for the party to back away from the Berzerker then have a flying familiar or summoned animal circle just beyond his reach and insist that he doesn't keep any ranged weapons. If your DM rules that he must attack to the best of his ability that likely means he will have to either throw his weapon in the first round. In subsequent rounds, he has to continue to attack to the best of his ability which likely involves scrounging for an improvised weapon and wasting precious rounds or jumping in the air with futility.
X-Codes 10-23-06, 03:31 AM	One amusing way to distract a Frenzied Berzerker is for the party to back away from the Berzerker then have a flying familiar or summoned animal circle just beyond his reach and insist that he doesn't keep any ranged weapons. Hehe, another use for celestial monkies.
runestar 10-23-06, 03:37 AM	What if you had the FB wear a hat with a stick protruding from it, and a tiny animal is tied at the end of the stick? With some luck, he will continue chasing the animal for the duration of the frenzy, which he will never catch up with...while the rest of your party does what needs to be done to survive...:P
Wayside 10-23-06, 08:15 AM	One amusing way to distract a Frenzied Berzerker is for the party to back away from the Berzerker then have a flying familiar or summoned animal circle just beyond his reach and insist that he doesn't keep any ranged weapons. If your DM rules that he must attack to the best of his ability that likely means he will have to either throw his weapon in the first round. In subsequent rounds, he has to continue to attack to the best of his ability which likely involves scrounging for an improvised weapon and wasting precious rounds or jumping in the air with futility. The only problem with this is every berserker i've seen has a legendary jump skill (high 20's, low 30's)
bhu 10-23-06, 03:05 PM	So everyone except the berserker is invisible and he just gets mad at air? Right... Better than being whooped on by the FB. Im thinking Rings of Invisibility should be standard for every party member traveling with a Berserker. Plus if the bad guys turn invisible you can try having the cleric Purge them. Oooh heres a nasty thought...permanently invisible Pixie FB....
bholdr_mage 10-23-06, 03:18 PM	[B][SIZE="4"] I never argued the solutions. (filler) Thank you. Raidzuo, you seem like the guy here that is taking opinions to heart. Yes, they are quoting you. Yes they are contradicting you. But their way of gaming could be much different than your own. These are my opinions. One side is for raidzuo, and the other is for everyone else. Raidzuo: If a fast-food company spills hot coffee on your crotch, you CAN sue the restaraunt for everything they own and put them out of business for being so careless. It says so in the laws. Some people choose to do this; others would take a meager compensation and leave the company in business because they like the coffee. Are you a lawyer? This may be a bad analogy; but the main point is that many words can be read differently and MANIPULATED to fit a proposed cause. It is my belief that governments and courts around the world tinker and manipulate the wording to fit their own needs and wants. An aquaintence of mine was pulled over for speeding, but the cop claimed only at first that he was weaving in traffic. The aquaintence didn't get a ticket for the weaving, but he did get a ticket for speeding. The aquaintence went to the court date and had the ticket nullified because he was given a ticket for something other than the cop's first accusation, "Have you had anything to drink tonight?" "No." "Well, I pulled you over because it sure looked like it....pause...I clocked you going 51 in a 45." Because the officer claimed he pulled over the driver for weaving in traffic; and didn't mention that speeding was ALSO a reason, the aquaintence got off scott free of charges, just for a simple mis-wording of the "I pulled you over because..." The aquaintence knew he was speeding; he just wanted out of the ticket. Most people would have paid the ticket since they knew they were speeding. This aquaintence looked hard for loopholes to get out of the problem. It seems that many on here are looking at the FB as a great asset in a battle, but a horrible problem when their (opponents are) dealt with or they run. Again, the type of ruling you are doing is fine for your game. It's not for mine. It specifically states on page 34 of CW, last sentence before the hit die that: "Most people give even such well-intentioned frenzied berzerkers a wide berth, however, and they often find themselves wandering as loners in the wilderness." My guess of why this would be printed is because they are prone to slaughter the village they may be protecting; that they might be loners because their thirst for conflict keeps them from having friends because the "insanity of battle" (page 34, 1st paragraph under FB, third sentence) kills their "allies" because they have no control over their actions; they confuse enemies with allies and are in the "frenzied" moment of blood-letting. Everyone else: I agree. If a FB drops his greataxe and starts grappling or flinging mud at his "allies," you take all the danger out of the class. The FB concept, as someone has mentioned, is a dangerous class to be around. Don't quote me on this one, but I believe some WOTC staff members think the FB is the most powerful PrC in the game. He's basically an extra attack at the highest BaB with the strength of a giant with rage and frenzy. Dealing with it depends on what you have availible. Illusions, summons, area effect spells, and mind altering spells (like calm emotions) work great. The best possible solution when none of these are availible is to run and hide. Postions of invisibility work well here, as does rope trick. (after you hide of course.) A closed door should slow him for a couple of rounds, and wall spells will too. Bag of tricks could be useful, but it's similar to a wand of summon monster 1. But the spells that no-one has mentioned are spells that affect HIS vision. Fog cloud, darkness, blindness; or things that effect his movement like slow and sleet storm. Chill people. Like my opinion or don't. If you do, great. If you don't, oh well. It's not something to lose sleep over.
Rowan_Whispercloak 10-23-06, 03:34 PM	Just be glad you have never had played Sword and Sorcery's Ravenloft all Barbarian had the can't tell friend from foe and can't end rage prematurely (not even a will save). Picture dealing with that from level 1 on.
SunTzuWarmaster 10-23-06, 08:32 PM	Just a thing that we keep forgetting: Summon Monster I does not SLOW DOWN the FB, it SPEEDS HIM UP. Frenzied Berserkers Supreme Cleave + Improved Power Attack right through low level monsters.