Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aprilia4life 09-18-05, 06:44 AM	I have a level 1 barbarian with; STR: 22 DEX: 19 CON: 20 INT: 14 WIS: 15 CHA: 12 Feats: Power Attack, Cleave. Now what I want to do is somehow make her into a frenzied berserker but I know that if I do it at level 6 she will just chop my party in half (crap Will Save so I can't get out of frenzy) and then I will only get 1 feat every 3 levels (there is quite a few nice feats I could pick up if I had a few levels of fighter) My friend is running an undead campaign so the +2 damage against my racial enemy (undead) will be very useful when I take the level of ranger (I want as much damage as I can get after all , plus the reflex +2 is good. So here is what I want to do in levels, 1: Barb - Feat: Power Attack, Feat: Cleave 2: Ranger - Racial Enemy (Undead), Track, Reflex +2 3: Fighter - Feat: Intimidating Rage, Fight Feat: Weapon focus(Great Sword) 4: Fighter - Fight Feat: Great Cleave!, 1 DEX (Free Stat) 5: Fighter - 6: Fighter - Feat: Iron Will, Fight Feat: Weapon specialisation (Great Sword) 7: Fighter - 8: Fighter - Fight Feat: Improved Critical, Will Save +2 (fighter 8), +1 WIS (Free Stat) 9: Frenzied Barbarian: Destructive Rage So with this build I get the following bonuses to my will save (to make one safe (almost) frenzied berserker!) +3 from Wis +2 from Fighter level 8 +2 from Iron Will +2 from Barb Rage That makes a grand total of 9, although I might ditch the Iron will and take extra rage instead... Can I take one Extra Rage feat and put one of the two extra (Rages or Frenzies) into Frenzy and the other into Rage? Giving me 2 rages and 2 frenzies? So what do you guys think? My DM is a bit of a fluff monkey so a holy avenger is out of the question and anything from the eastern campaign is also out of the question.... Although any suggestions would be nice as I can't seem to find a search function on the forums so I was having troubles finding info on the F.B. Any other FB info/links would be GREAT too. Tah. PS. Sorry for posting twice in seperate threads, I thought it might be better to put the thread in this topic then the other one (and you can't delete posts in this *bleep* forum)
DarknessEternal 09-18-05, 06:56 AM	I think you should play a more rational game where your 1st level human doesn't have 3 attributes over 18.
LostTemplar 09-18-05, 07:10 AM	First, I'm considering getting a Frenzied Berserker. Here's what I pretty much decided to do: Max out Str, Int and Cha. Take one level of barbarian. Two worth of fighter, and three worth of paladin. Any of the Chaotic Versions from Unearthed arcana would do. Divine grace would help with the Will Save. Then, well, essencially, its Frenzied berserker from then on, and if one requires will modifiers, Iron Will is good. Another option is to disregard the Fighter levels and just progress as a regular Barbarian.
ck2001wendt 09-18-05, 08:15 AM	Paladin and Barbarian are alignment-incompatible. A Barb who becomes Lawful can't rage, and a non-LG Paladin isn't a Paladin. The exception is a Paladin of Freedom (Unearthed Arcana), who starts as CG. Frenzied Berserker falls into the realm of "dangerous but not broken" and should be used with caution. First, remember that being an FB does NOT mean you have to Frenzy. You still get most of the other class abilities regardless of your mental state. Second, as your party gets up in levels they should all acquire some method of flight. This way, an FB that runs out of enemies will just attack the landscape until the Frenzy ends, while your party safely hovers out of range. FBs cannot activate their flight item while they Frenzy. Third, battlefield control (Walls) or Illusions (remember that low Will save) can be used to contain an out of control FB until the Frenzy ends. If you put up an illusory wall, there's a good chance the FB will ignore you. Fourth, though hardest, is boost your Will save. You only attack your friends if you fail.
BadCatMan 09-18-05, 10:50 AM	I once suggested the FB to my DM as an argument against PvP... he loved it (so the argument didn't work then), and proceeded to suggest ways for the FB to avoid killing fellow party members. Here's some of his as well as some of mine. Disarm them first (sunder won't go down well at all if you break someone's fave magic sword), and give them time to run away while you go berserk at something else. Heck, if the sword isn't particularly treasured, attack that while it lays on the ground and the owner scampers. Power Attack for maximum possible BAB to reduce your chances of hitting your comrade. Of course, doing max damage to them is also risky. Hey, just because you're in a screaming blood lust frenzy doesn't mean you can't metagame!
Thorak 09-18-05, 11:32 AM	I once suggested the FB to my DM as an argument against PvP... he loved it (so the argument didn't work then), and proceeded to suggest ways for the FB to avoid killing fellow party members. Here's some of his as well as some of mine. Disarm them first (sunder won't go down well at all if you break someone's fave magic sword), and give them time to run away while you go berserk at something else. That's showing concern for their innocence or friendship, unless you disarm all your opponents and let them run away. Heck, if the sword isn't particularly treasured, attack that while it lays on the ground and the owner scampers. Sword =/= creature. You attack the nearest creature. Power Attack for maximum possible BAB to reduce your chances of hitting your comrade. Of course, doing max damage to them is also risky. Again, showing concern for their innocence or friendship. Hey, just because you're in a screaming blood lust frenzy doesn't mean you can't metagame! Well, except that the FB's drawback explicitly says you can't, at least in the ways you listed. You can't show any regard for their friendship or innocence. That means no using tactics you think won't work. You have to kill them as efficiently as you kill anything. That said, there's only one truly useful way to control an FB. That's with another PC playing a Red Wizard, where the FB dips into Thayan Knight. Thayan Knights auto-fail Will saves against Red Wizards, which removes the chance he might roll a 20 and auto-save against whatever you're doing.
bomaz 09-18-05, 11:36 AM	from a friends game get a psion who can cast brain lock on you when you are risking killing a party member
Black Kitten 09-18-05, 11:51 AM	The solution to this in general is simple: Cleric or Bard in the party, or even better: both. Don't worry too much about your will save, but make sure that you can be smitten by your allied to either: stand still" or become non-violent. And wear heavy armor! I know it makes your character less viable, but wear it and have the others wear light armor... they can then run like hell!
Particle 09-18-05, 11:59 AM	uhm, if possible try this: In the morning after rest, go into the woods alone. Waste all your frenzies. No risk for your group the rest of the day. This is, if you think the FBs other features are worth the class. the power Attack and cleave enhancements are just great imo...
AtomicPope 09-18-05, 06:27 PM	We have a Frenzied Berserker in our Group and I've knocked him out a number of times with my Fighter. The thing is, their AC gets so low you can do a two handed power attack for non-Lethal damage. They're not immune to being staggered, nor are they immune to KO (until higher levels). Typically, we just have our Cleric keep a few Calm Emotion spells handy. With the low Will Save a simple spell shuts their powers down completely. Since it's only level 2, it's no big deal to have two of then prepared. Our Artificer is going to craft a Wand of Calm, just to keep him in check. It sounds like a hassle but I must admit, Frenzied Berserkers can really put the hurtin' on big, tough monsters.
aprilia4life 09-18-05, 06:35 PM	Not boosting my will save means that enemy mages will be able to charm me "till the cows come home". The DM would have a field day. And with a will save of +9 that's like 45-50% chance (on a DC20), that's pretty damn good odds when I roll every turn. Do you guys think it is worth not boosting my will saves and just putting my feats and efforts into more damage and relying on the party for stopping me (spells, knocking me out, etc) and relying on the DM's minions charming me every chance they get?
AtomicPope 09-18-05, 06:37 PM	Not boosting my will save means that enemy mages will be able to charm me "till the cows come home". The DM would have a field day. And with a will save of +9 that's like 45-50% chance (on a DC20), that's pretty damn good odds when I roll every turn. Charms don't work well on FB because their emotions run too high. What you need to look out for is Dominate Person :eek:
Salla 09-18-05, 06:39 PM	Here's what you should do, assuming you are dead-set on the Frenzied Psychopath: Get a weapon with the Merciful ability. Assuming your foes aren't immune to subdual damage, activate the Merciful ability with your standard action, then as a free action, go Rage/Frenzy. Carry no other weapons. Since you're in a rage/frenzy, you won't be in a mental state capable of saying the command word to deactivate the merciful weapon, and thus if you do start pummelling your teammates, they won't get killed. Since you must try to kill them 'to the best of your abilities', the trick is to limit your abilities to 'none'.
Aldarionn 09-18-05, 07:18 PM	I would make sure you have some other sort of fighter in the party, to "keep you in line" so to speak, and to "deal with you" when you get out of control. Then when you fail your will save and attack party members, just always make sure the fighter is closest. This fighter should work on his AC most of all (which works out for the party as well, because he can act as a solid tank while the FB does his damage to the enemy), and when the FB goes for him, he should use a full defensive action. Perhaps put as much money in to his armor as possible and get the enhancement bonus up as high as he can, and at higher levels make the armor Heavy Fortification armor to avoid crits. Also he should work on Con to get his HP up as high as possible. All of this is helpful to the party during a fight and is essential when you have a Frenzied killing machine trying to take his head off. If the Fighter has AC too high for the FB to reliably hit him, then the FB can just attack him until the Frenzy runs down. The Cleric can keep the Fighter alive, and the Wizard/Sorcerer can attempt to Hold Person or Slow the FB to keep him from doing too much damage. At higher levels the Sorcerer/Wizard should just keep up a Dominate Monster spell (better if it's a Sorcerer, because he can spontaneously cast it if he has other spells he would rather cast. He can take the spell to begin with and later take other, more desirable spells, though a Dominate is nothing to scoff at). If the party is careful I think this could work, but it does require a second fighter type in the group in place of some other class. Aldarionn
Aldarionn 09-18-05, 07:23 PM	I think you should play a more rational game where your 1st level human doesn't have 3 attributes over 18. I was wondering how this first level human had 3 stats over 18 as well, however, she never said the character was human. She just said that it was a lvl 1 Barbarian. It could be an Ogre or a Half Dragon for all we know, which would explain the STR and CON increases. The DEX I don't know about, but I'm sure there are races out there that are strong, agile, and tough. Also there are ways for a lvl 1 human to get 3 stats over 18, it's just tough and probably required some very lucky rolls. Anyway, this was not a thread about how awsome her stats are, it was a thread about how best to build her class so that she does not kill her party in the process of a Frenzy. Aldarionn
aprilia4life 09-18-05, 07:48 PM	Our DM has added +4 to all our stats before we started playing, hence the rather huge stat bonuses (we are all super human, so to speak)
Super_Demolition_Christ 09-18-05, 08:00 PM	here is how your part can help based on their class Monk: Grab the halfing/gnome and run Fighter: Distract you and use full defense(if he takes any classes with tumble as a class skill 5 or more ranks in tumble will increase his AC when taking full defense) Ranger/Archerfighter: Sleep arrows Bard:Illusions Sorcerer/Wizard:Dominate person/illusions Cleric: Calm Emotions just calm emotions dammit:D
Corinthians 09-18-05, 08:44 PM	I think you should play a more rational game where your 1st level human doesn't have 3 attributes over 18. I think you ought to post more constructively, the OP didn't ask our opinion on the type of game he plays in. To the OP: There is a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds that lets you control your actions during a rage. While most people say that a frenzy is not a rage, you're fully capable of raging while frenzying, thus activating the feat and keeping yourself from killing your friends.
aprilia4life 09-18-05, 09:01 PM	My friend made this suggestion. Casting Levitate on me either before combat or while I am frenzied (but still friendly to the party members as there are still enemies to attack) and not actually *moving* me untill there are no more enemies for me to kill. Then he just raises me 20 feet in the air and all I can attack is thin air :) Am I right in understanding that I can control what I do untill I run out of enemies and THEN I attack whoever is closest to me, of which I have no control? Can someone explain if this is right or not?
CryoSilver 09-18-05, 09:26 PM	Have the wizard cast Wall of Stone around you after the last bad guy dies.
Andrew_980 09-19-05, 01:30 AM	Ask yourself fo i want to play an out of control killer with no notion of who he is killing? OR A munchkinized uber melee power house with an excuse out of the only "flaw" of the most overpowered single Prc? better yet don't play one, problem solved!
Judging Eagle 09-19-05, 02:46 AM	My friend made this suggestion. Casting Levitate on me either before combat or while I am frenzied (but still friendly to the party members as there are still enemies to attack) and not actually *moving* me untill there are no more enemies for me to kill. Then he just raises me 20 feet in the air and all I can attack is thin air :) Am I right in understanding that I can control what I do untill I run out of enemies and THEN I attack whoever is closest to me, of which I have no control? Can someone explain if this is right or not? Holy.... :eek: That's probably the single best way to pull this off. Since you can move horizontally fine while running/walking (and theoretically, you should move even faster since you have... no wieght, but all of your str to move you, and the ground as friction to give you leverage for each of your steps) you can attack normally any enemy. Once combat's over the wizard lifts you so that you can't attack allies. Also, I should suggest this. If you need to be 'moved' around the field, have the wizard use mage hand or unseen servant to 'push' you sideways in the air, then lower you like some sort of living bomb.
Black Kitten 09-19-05, 03:16 AM	Ask yourself fo i want to play an out of control killer with no notion of who he is killing? OR A munchkinized uber melee power house with an excuse out of the only "flaw" of the most overpowered single Prc? better yet don't play one, problem solved! If you are able to play as a team, having a FB is the ultimate experience. At least, I was the designated player for controlling our Dwarven Brn/Ftr/FB with my Cleric of Sune (the Dwarf actually had 12 Cha and was a nice guy IG). I knew that the character relied on me after he was done hacking apart the enemies and I took great honour in keeping him in check. It really felt that when he downed another enemy in a few blows, that in fact my character was giving out that damage. No single critical comes close to that (though the bullrush of a group of grapplers into a wall, knocking the BBEG inside the grapple unconscious came close). I think Glime will be up for a guest appearance soon :-D
aprilia4life 09-19-05, 06:59 AM	They can do some serious damage! What do you think of the level of Ranger?
ShadowDragon8685 09-19-05, 08:24 AM	The only constructive thing I have to say is "Don't play an FB." It's like "Don't be a Marine." (No offense to any leathernecks here.) It's just Not a Safe Thing. If your control valve fails and you kill a PC, I garuntee his next PC will be a Wizard or a Sorcerer. With a Disintegrate with your name on it. Disintegrate auto-vaporizes when your HP hit zero, so not even Deathless Frenzy will save you.
LostTemplar 09-19-05, 03:43 PM	ck2001wendt: Unearthed Arcana has non-lawfull Paladins. Specifically the Paladin of Freedom and the Paladin of Slaughter.
Encard 09-19-05, 03:45 PM	Ask your DM if the Righteous Wrath feat (from the BoED) can apply to Frenzy as well as Rage. If he says yes, you're good to go.
aprilia4life 09-19-05, 06:30 PM	Ask your DM if the Righteous Wrath feat (from the BoED) can apply to Frenzy as well as Rage. If he says yes, you're good to go. He say's that he won't allow exalted feats, as I am not exalted :) I still think the levitate idea would work the best? (see on of my previous posts for more information)
aprilia4life 09-20-05, 05:58 PM	Also, what feats are good for the FB? I am taking (apart from the standard 4, cleave, power attack, int and dest rage) Great Cleave (More Hits!) Weapon Focus (+1 to hit. good for damage on normal/greater/supreme power attacks Weapon specialisation (+2 damage) Improved critical (Critical on a 17 - 20 with a greatsword! 20% chance!) Iron will (for the will saves) Leap looks pretty sweet for the x3 to damage bonus from power attacks (Thats 12 damage per -1 to hit with supreme cleave!!!) but that's for only 1 attack when you charge/leap, then it's normal damage. What feats have you guys found useful to have with your FB's? Tactical feats?
Salla 09-20-05, 06:34 PM	Also, what feats are good for the FB? I am taking (apart from the standard 4, cleave, power attack, int and dest rage) Great Cleave (More Hits!) Weapon Focus (+1 to hit. good for damage on normal/greater/supreme power attacks Weapon specialisation (+2 damage) Improved critical (Critical on a 17 - 20 with a greatsword! 20% chance!) Iron will (for the will saves) Leap looks pretty sweet for the x3 to damage bonus from power attacks (Thats 12 damage per -1 to hit with supreme cleave!!!) but that's for only 1 attack when you charge/leap, then it's normal damage. What feats have you guys found useful to have with your FB's? Tactical feats? Great Cleave: I've never been able to make it work; even with your damage output, the odds are against you coming across something you can take down with a single hit. If you think your party will be able to support you by providing damaged nearby targets for you to Great-Cleave, though, it can work. Weapon Focus: Not too bad, but probably unnecessary with the STR you'll be cranking up to. Weapon Specialization: Requires 4 levels of Fighter, which means significant diversion from your Barbarian abilities. Improved Critical: Definitely, but I recommend a Greatsword; same crit range, but you get 2 points of damage for -1 to your attack rolls with Power Attack (and even more with the Barbarian power attack boosters). Iron Will: Your call; I'd rather invest in a Cloak of Resistance.
Merestil Haye 09-20-05, 07:03 PM	I think you have a problem. You cannot take your first level in a prestige class at a level in which you gakin a prerequisite for that class. Since you plan on getting Destructive Rage at 9th level, you may not take a first level in FB until 10th at the earliest.Prestige Classes Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing. You need to reconfigure your levels. If you want damage-dealing capacity, go Barbarian with 2 levels of fighter; do not bother with Ranger at all. Play a Dwarf. By 6th level you should have the feats to qualigfy for FB, plus Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) and Craft (Weaponsmith) 3 ranks. Take one level of Exotic Weapon Master at 7th level, and choose the Uncanny Blow stunt. This allows you to wield an exotic weapon in two hands and get double your Strength bonus to damage instead of the normal 1½ times. Choose to do this with a Dwarven Waraxe. That's an extra 2½ points of damage per blow before Power Attack (average dieroll drops from 7 to 5½ and you lose Weapon Specialisation, while Str damage bonus rises from +16 to +22). Now go into FB and watch the damage pile up.
aprilia4life 09-20-05, 07:54 PM	I think you have a problem. You cannot take your first level in a prestige class at a level in which you gakin a prerequisite for that class. Since you plan on getting Destructive Rage at 9th level, you may not take a first level in FB until 10th at the earliest.You need to reconfigure your levels. If you want damage-dealing capacity, go Barbarian with 2 levels of fighter; do not bother with Ranger at all. Play a Dwarf. By 6th level you should have the feats to qualigfy for FB, plus Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) and Craft (Weaponsmith) 3 ranks. Take one level of Exotic Weapon Master at 7th level, and choose the Uncanny Blow stunt. This allows you to wield an exotic weapon in two hands and get double your Strength bonus to damage instead of the normal 1½ times. Choose to do this with a Dwarven Waraxe. That's an extra 2½ points of damage per blow before Power Attack (average dieroll drops from 7 to 5½ and you lose Weapon Specialisation, while Str damage bonus rises from +16 to +22). Now go into FB and watch the damage pile up. I can't play a dwarf (only humans allowed) and I can take Iron will at level 9 instead (So I can go FB). That exotic weapon master class sounds quite interesting though... hmm.. I find the extra feats you get from the fighter a bit more useful then the barb abilities (you can get eyes at the back of your head feat if you don't want to be flanked and you can get extra rage as a feat as well)
Salla 09-20-05, 08:22 PM	(only humans allowed) Wow ... that *really* sucks.
aprilia4life 09-20-05, 08:54 PM	Wow ... that *really* sucks. Well it kind of goes with the fluff, we are the last humans in existence (or so we think), created by gods to save the world from the undead... hence the +4 to all stats
Merestil Haye 09-21-05, 09:26 AM	I can't play a dwarf (only humans allowed) and I can take Iron will at level 9 instead (So I can go FB). That exotic weapon master class sounds quite interesting though... hmm.. I find the extra feats you get from the fighter a bit more useful then the barb abilities (you can get eyes at the back of your head feat if you don't want to be flanked and you can get extra rage as a feat as well)The idea does not work quite as well then. You will need to spend an extra feat to get proficiency in an exotic weapon. If the main enemies are undead then criticalling is not really going to help as undead are immune to crits and sneak attacks. So carry a warmace. 1d12 from a 1-handed exotic weapon. (It's also from Complete Warrior, and I'm guessing that that book is allowed.) Get proficiency and focus in your chosen weapon, Power Attack, Cleave and one of the other FB prereqs by 6th level then take that level of Exotic Weapon Master. Barbarian 11 is useful to you as the Rage bonuses all increase but the penalty does not. Yes you can replicate the Barbarian class features with feats, but you don't get enough feats to replicate them all. The only Barbarian feature I would not miss is Trap Sense. Plus Barbarian gets more hp owing to the bigger die. I'd be looking at Bbn 6 / Ftr 2 / EWM 1 / FB 1 at 10th level. That's just me though.
Limit 09-21-05, 03:32 PM	Thayan Knight is my favorite class to pair with Frenzied Berserker. I like the flavor of a knight so fervently protecting a Red Wizard that he goes insane with bloodlust. When the battle is over, the Red Wizard has to gently remind him to sit down. The FB would automatically fail saving throws against the mind-affect spells cast by the Red Wizard, making it easy for the Red Wizard to stop the FB if all the enemies die. From this post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6579842&postcount=26) on the CO boards
JimmyB 09-22-05, 08:55 PM	Maybe you should look at another class. In frostburn, have a look at primeval. You get bonuses on your strength, con, dex and wisdom, and lose stats on your cha and intelligence. You also get a version of wild form (feral power) lasting for 1 minute per lvl, or until you change back. you change as a standard actions, and you add the score of the animal to your stats -10 (11 for odd) so a dire lion(Strength 25) adds +14 to your normal strength. Items that enhance don't work tho. the form cannot have more than 8HD, and has to be a prehistoric animal of some kind (if you'e a barbarian i suggest some kind of bear). if you take a class with wild form, they can add to your amount of changes per day as well (but not the other way around) that's one way to uppety your stats and have control.....
Moon-Lancer 09-22-05, 09:33 PM	wow. I really want to play a FB now and take righteous wrath. I could so play a good orian from record of lodoss war. or create a charicter with anger management issues.