Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UltimateReality 02-25-06, 12:09 AM	So just for fun I'm drawing up this pixie barbarian with a maul....anyway, I was looking at the Frenzied Berserker class from Complete Warrior and ran into something weird that hasn't been fixed in the errata.While frenzied, she....takes 2 points of nonlethal damage per round.Then, at fourth level:As long as her frenzy continues, she is not treated as disabled at 0 hit points, nor is she treated as dying at -1 to -9 hit points.Cool again. But...when [your nonlethal damage] exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.So wouldn't I always fall unconscious from my nonlethal damage from frenzy before I ever have a chance to use my Deathless Frenzy ability? :confused:
adrj 02-25-06, 12:27 AM	I'm not looking at my books at the moment, so I may be off base a bit. As I recall it takes a determined effort to get a human into FB at 6th level, 9th for any other race due to the feat requirements. At that level, wouldn't the barbarians damage reduction soak the non-lethal damage?
Black Kitten 02-25-06, 04:59 AM	I believe the rule is that the FB doesn't succumb to damage anymore, lethal or non-lethal.
UltimateReality 02-25-06, 09:54 AM	I believe the rule is that the FB doesn't succumb to damage anymore, lethal or non-lethal. The full ability states:At 4th level and higher, a frenzied berserker can scorn death and unconsciousness while in a frenzy. As long as her frenzy continues, she is not treated as disabled at 0 hit points, nor is she treated as dying at-1 to -9 hit points. Even if reduced to -10 hit points or less, she continues to fight normally until her frenzy ends. At that point, the effects of her wounds apply normally if they have not been healed. This ability does not prevent death from amssive damage or from spell effects such as slay living or disintegrate.But falling unconscious from nonlethal damage does not make you disabled or dying, so does not apply to this case. The ability specifically mentions your normal hit points being reduced, but your nonlethal damage that you take every round should kick in and prevent Deathless Frenzy from occuring. At that level, wouldn't the barbarians damage reduction soak the non-lethal damage?A barbarian gets DR 1 at 6th and DR 2 at 10th. You would still be able to shrug off only 1 point of the nonlethal unless you waited til 10th to get into it. Furthermore, a Ftr/Brb multiclass can easily qualify for this PrC as soon as they meet rhe BAB prereq and they have no DR at all. Still, thanks for pointing that out to me; I don't play high-lvel barbarians and had forgotten when they got that ability. Edit: I completely forgot, pixies get DR 10/cold iron. What, if anything, does that change? Furthermore, nonlethal damage is not mentioned anywhere in the PHB glossary on p. 307. In fact, I find two conflicting things: First: "The number in a creature's damage reduction is the amount of hit points damage thre creature ignores." IIRC, nonlethal damage does not deal hit points damage -- it deals damage, but I've yet to see it called "hit points damage". Page 146 of the PHB specifically states that nonlethal damage is NOT hit point damage. But then, later on in the same glossary entry, it says "Some damage reduction, such as that of a barbarian, is not overcome by any type of weapon", which seems to imply that nonlethal would come under this heading too.
seret 02-25-06, 10:12 AM	a pixie with a maul... i SO love it i got to steal that idea please post the stats for "my next npc" :P
Sianger 02-27-06, 03:07 AM	I believe the idea of deathless frenzy (or, if I remember correctly, the Ferocity ability of boars and some other monsters), is basically that your hp effectively increases by 10 and you die when you hit 0. So, an FB with deathless frenzy would fall unconscious when her nonlethal damage equals her current hp +10 (i.e. if you subtract nonlethal damage from current hp, she hits -10).
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-27-06, 03:20 AM	Deathless Frenzy works differently. Regardless of how much hp damage you have on you, if you have DF you continue fighting normally until your frenzy runs out (and then you drop dead if your current hp are -10 or worse). Fight below -300 hp if you want, DF lets it happen.
Otto the Bugbear 02-27-06, 08:27 AM	This certainly is an issue and has been brought up before. The subdual damage should prevent deathless frenzy from every working. I mention is a little bit in this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7044135&postcount=120) post back in August, but that's not the first time. Suffice it to say, as you've discovered, there is no clear cut answer. Cheers Otto :)
Sir Knight 02-27-06, 09:00 AM	My suggestion is to NOT use the Frenzied Berserker. It should be removed from the game or be a template and/or NPC-only class. I was a supporter of it ("it can't be that bad") until I saw the beast in play. :) It is a bit much in general. In addition, I would think that if you were concious from taking the non-lethal damage and Deathless Frenzy kicked it, you are "immune" to the subdual 2hp/round you take. Technically the odds of you doing that are very low so it seems okay.
UltimateReality 02-27-06, 09:17 AM	as you've discovered, there is no clear cut answer. Thank god. This problem was so glaringly obvious when I read the class that I figured I had read the rules wrong somehow. My in-house DM's response to this was that the DF ability specifically mentions unconsciousness, and nonlethal damage specifically knocks you unconscious. I'm still not convinced (and I'd still like to know whether DR applies to nonlethal damage or not), but it's the best answer so far. My suggestion is to NOT use the Frenzied Berserker.Thanks for your concern. :) I'm not actually playing it -- you'll note that in my OP I said "for fun", i.e. not for actual play. (Besides, I'm pumping up that Will save anyway. Attackig party=no fun. :( ) This is more of a concept build, because, well, pixies wielding mauls and raging is just too cool. :D Plus, I may use her as some weird NPC sometime in a one-off...
irzg9zh3psgq3m09 02-27-06, 08:58 PM	I think Deathless Frenzy allows the character to stay concious even from subdual damage. "At 4th level and higher, a frenzied berserker can scorn death and unconsciousness while in a frenzy." I would keep score of both HP and subdual damage, so when the frenzy ends, both come into account. For example, a FB who gets lowered to -1 HP and recieves 20 subdual damage would get knocked unconcious after the frenzy ends from both damage. The FB would still be unconcious after he gets healed above 0 HP because he still has some subdual damage. Once that subdual damage is also healed to lower than the HPs, then the FB would awaken.
Lincoln Hills 02-28-06, 03:54 PM	I agree with SirKnight: having seen one in play, I scorn the Frenzied Berserker forevermore. As a solitary NPC the class might have a place, but not as part of a PC group... Ask yourself this: do you really want to pick up a prestige class that combines "a good reason for the other PCs to want you dead" with "a lot of self-contradictory rules"? Particularly when you're playing a pixie? (Pixies are "naturally invisible" and have to choose to be visible: suggesting that a pixie who's asleep or unconscious will become invisible automatically - not always a good thing when you're in negative hp and unconscious SOMEWHERE on a battlefield...)
UltimateReality 02-28-06, 07:26 PM	I scorn the Frenzied Berserker forevermore. As a solitary NPC the class might have a place, but not as part of a PC group... ... So just for fun I'm drawing up this pixie barbarian with a maulI'm not actually playing it -- you'll note that in my OP I said "for fun", i.e. not for actual play.This is more of a concept buildI may use her as some weird NPC sometime
Mentar 02-28-06, 08:10 PM	Simply based on the wording. FB continues fighting until rage ends. Subdual damage > hp = falls unconcious at the end of the rage. Lethal damage > hp and hp +10 > lethal damage = falls unconcious at the end of the rage. Lethal damage > hp+10 = falls dead at the end of the rage. Subdual damage from weapons/unarmed strikes would be subject to DR. Subdual damage from internal effects or elemental/magical effects would not unless specifically stated otherwise.
Aminar 02-28-06, 11:46 PM	DR does affect non-lethal, otherwise why would war trolls have DR.
CowMasterTrojan 03-01-06, 02:38 AM	DR does affect non-lethal, otherwise why would war trolls have DR. Flaming weapons? Potions of acid?
Dragen White 03-01-06, 05:29 PM	it was in my opinion when i read the text, that i realized that the subdual damage is like a ticking clock, your getting great abilities, but if you dont hurry and smash everything you will pass out from exhastion. The fact is even if you get hit you lose some subdual with the lethal thus decresing your time to frenzy before passing out. look at it his way, if you never get hit you will pass out when your subdual runs low, and you will never get a chance to use deathless frenzy, if you are heavily damgaed and enter deathless frenzy you can stay alive but will be considerd dead afterwards unless someone is constantly healing you. Thus the draw back of overcoming the subdual and just falling unconconcious ups the anty to being dead, its like and overlap rule, think of it that way if not deathless then will fall unconcious, if deathless will die. Now the only sucky part is that every clas has some weakness, and as you all have pointed out even as powerfull as this class can be, a frenzied beserker can be knocked out of the battle way before her time if the enemy uses subdual forms of attack, however it is in the beserkers best intrest to provoke damge from her foes, thus killing as fast as she can causing more of a threat, and besides a dm using subdual with a dragon attacking you isnt being smart, hes metagaming, unless that dragon is like lets say a good aligned dragon that doesnt want to kill anyone. Thats my opinion on how the subdual lethal issue works.
cypherx 03-02-06, 06:43 PM	no, the special ability adds on to how the rules normally effect your character. also, the subdual damage would not knock you out because you get the rage ability before you get the other ability.
Mist of Shadows 03-03-06, 06:40 PM	Just look at the subdual damage like this. It doesn't matter that you are taking subdual damage until you come out of rage. AT which point you check to see if you fall over unconcious. Because the whole ignoring subdual only works while in a frenzy. So don't worry about it. It most likely means that you die when you come out of it. Coup de grace the unconcious barbarian. I've seen parties kill frenzied beserkers while unconcious because they believed the character went insane.
Vaelan 03-04-06, 10:54 PM	UltimateReality has interpreted the rule correctly. Deathless Frenzy does nothing to prevent you from falling unconscious when your nonlethal damage is greater than your hitpoints. That having been said: the ability is poorly-designed. By the way, for those of you who are trying to use the description of the ability as rules: they aren't rules. They're flavor text. At best, they're a very vague description of the ability which is irrelevant in the face of actual rules text.
Mist of Shadows 03-05-06, 04:44 PM	It makes no sense to have abilities that would NEVER do anything if the subdual damage wasn't countered while in Frenzy. This is clearly a case of a badly disigned ability that could be fixed by ignoring subdual (rather ignoring the rule that says you fall over when it's equal to your hp) until you come out of Frenzy. It fits flavor wise and spirit of the rules wise. Adhering to the stupidness of rules when they make no sense just causing problems. My advice just ignore the subdual damage (still take it) till you fall out of frenzy then you fall over unconcious most likely.