Post/Author/DateTime	Post
primemover003 01-16-06, 03:44 PM	If one member of your group somehow, improbably and legitimately rolled six 18's during character creation (for those who roll that is, please no discussion of point buy) and your DM asked that player to re-roll his character (for sake of balance) how would you react? Note: this is a hypothetical, not a real situation. It came up in the Rules Counselling forum in the Stats/CR thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=569175). A few other DM's said they would have the player re-roll... I said it was a good way to have your entire table mutiny.
ressurrector 01-16-06, 03:54 PM	It's understandable, however if he next proceeded to roll something on the low end of acceptable, I think the DM should let him reroll, or give him a point buy which places him at the high end of acceptable. If someone is "too" lucky, then just tone it down, but don't throw out their luck.
WoodFloor 01-16-06, 03:58 PM	Hmm Well for our stuff we usually make our characters with the DM around to supervise ( I usually need help with something or other) So they pretty much over see the dice rolling, while its statistically IMPROBABLE, it's not impossible. If it happend to me I would prolly say, "wow thats crazy!" At which you would say something like, "I'm gonna have to ask you to re-roll because that seems a little out of balance for the other players and the campaign I am trying to set up" So then I would say, "Aww man but I rolled perfect!" "Yeah but it doesn't make sense to just start out as perfect as possible. I'm not going to be throwing stuff at you guys that you can't kill all the time anyways, just re-roll it because its more balanced that way, besides this isn't a videogame you don't need to have super stats to win every encounter or challenge that happens." "Yeah I guess so, but still you gotta admit that it was amazing" "Yeah it was amazing, maybe some good fortune will befall you becasue you listened to me without making a jerk of yourself. I know that It may have been fun, but it wouldn't have been in the spirit of the campaign. This isn't about boosting your self esteem it's about using your imagination to overcome obstacles and sometimes you won't have exactly what you want but you might have what you need to survive." "OK yeah I get it DM but still, that was pretty cool huh? "Yeah it was now lets keep focused with getting your guy finished"
ghost_image 01-16-06, 04:01 PM	Well, if you were watching at the time then there really isnt any justification. If it was is private, something is wrong. But you're the DM and have the authority to do anything you want so it's your call in the end. Sorry for the lack of clarity. :(
primemover003 01-16-06, 04:07 PM	Well this hasn't happened in my group, but it came up in a discussion on the Rules counselling bard. I figured if a DM asked a player who legitimiately rolled six 18's to re-roll his table would revolt, mutiny, and Carpe DM. I know mine would, I figured other players might too.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-16-06, 04:07 PM	I would react very badly if I knew that player had legitimately rolled those (say, he rolled in front of the whole group and we saw them land that way), and the DM told him he had to reroll. It's probably safe to say I would be out of the group (and likely in jail). Rolling straight 18's is once in a lifetime and it'd have to be a very long lifetime, I find the very idea of taking something that special away from a player to be abhorrent. Best I've ever done (and nearly had a coronary when it happened) was 18, 17, 17, 17, 15, 14.
Treebore 01-16-06, 04:08 PM	If the DM saw the rolls the player should be allowed to keep them. This game is designed for characters will all 18's after all. Even all 18's with some stats adjusted up to 20's and some down to 16's. That is why these rules exist. If that player won the lottery in front of the DM and the DM tells him to give it up, well, I wouldn't be happy. That is a once in a lifetime character. Now if no one witnessed the rolls, then the DM would probably be 99.99999999% right to suspect cheating.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 04:12 PM	If one member of your group somehow, impossibly rolled six 18's during character creation (for those who roll that is, please no discussion of point buy) and your DM asked that player to re-roll his character (for sake of balance) how would you react? If he rolled that in front of witnesses, let him have it. That is a 1 in 101,559,956,668,416 occurance that he's got. To put that in perspective, what he did was 3,838,380 times harder to do than to win the New Zealand national lottery. He probably won't be seeing that again in his lifetime. To take that away from him would be wrong on so many levels.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 04:14 PM	I would react very badly if I knew that player had legitimately rolled those (say, he rolled in front of the whole group and we saw them land that way), and the DM told him he had to reroll. It's probably safe to say I would be out of the group (and likely in jail). Rolling straight 18's is once in a lifetime and it'd have to be a very long lifetime, I find the very idea of taking something that special away from a player to be abhorrent. Best I've ever done (and nearly had a coronary when it happened) was 18, 17, 17, 17, 15, 14. Best I ever did was 18,18,16,16,14,14. But it was followed by a 18,17,16,15,14,13 and a 18,14,14,14,13,13. I nearly had a coronary too.
TheChilliGod 01-16-06, 04:18 PM	One of my DM's players rolled a set of six 18's (and it was for the heck of it, they weren't making a character) then rolled a line-up of six 3's. And it's 21 times harder to get six 3's than it is to get six 18's. (On a 4d6 drop lowest) I would feel guilty to myself that I even got more than 3 18's in a line-up, and would willingly re-roll my rolls without being asked. However, I'd feel a sense of loss for a while, due to my powergaming instincts. Best I ever got though was 18, 16, 16, 14, 13, 12. So no dice jesus for me.
ghost_image 01-16-06, 04:27 PM	To put that in perspective, what he did was 3,838,380 times harder to do than to win the New Zealand national lottery. He probably won't be seeing that again in his lifetime. To take that away from him would be wrong on so many levels. Personally Id prefer the lottery.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 04:33 PM	Personally Id prefer the lottery. So would I, but you take what you can get :)
GeeBee 01-16-06, 04:41 PM	As a DM, I always rule that I have veto power over any stats not rolled in my presence (or my wife's, who performs assistant DM duties before our game). My players know and accept this, and kinda like the fact that I keep the cheaters in check. But if they rolled it in my presence, I'd pat them on the back and write a bigger part in the story for them. As a player, I could hardly expect any sane DM to accept perfect stats of mine if he didn't see them rolled. While it would be a bummer, I'd be fine with rolling up new stats. Honestly, straight 18's are not very interesting anyways. What challenge is there to creating a character with no tradeoffs?
The Hive Custodian 01-16-06, 04:48 PM	If he rolled that in front of witnesses, let him have it. That is a 1 in 101,559,956,668,416 occurance that he's got. To put that in perspective, what he did was 3,838,380 times harder to do than to win the New Zealand national lottery. He probably won't be seeing that again in his lifetime. To take that away from him would be wrong on so many levels. Just as a note, that's your chances on 3d6. On 4d6 drop lowest, your chances improve to 1 in about 55 billion. Still, after a certain point, it may become more likely that there is an imperfection in the generation method. Best I've rolled is 18, 17, 17, 16, 16, 14. That was when our DM gave us 4d6 drop two lowest, double highest, though.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 05:02 PM	Just as a note, that's your chances on 3d6. On 4d6 drop lowest, your chances improve to 1 in about 55 billion. Still, after a certain point, it may become more likely that there is an imperfection in the generation method. That is true. It is straight 3d6. 1 in 55billion is still several thousand times harder to get than the national lottery. I'd still let the guy have it.
geekling 01-16-06, 05:21 PM	A lot of it depends on who the DM is, and how it is delivered. If it is a legit roll (and I know this is the case) even a hint of suspicion that the DM thinks it's the result of cheating when he asks for that reroll, would result in something in the realm of being hopping mad. But that is not the case and the request is put forward without that hint of 'you cheated' I'd be quite happy to comply. Even if it was my 6 18s. I'd be even happier if some horsetrading was possible and a deal of keep a few of those 18s and reroll the rest, or reroll one dice out of the three, could be made. Or even better, some inter-party trading where someone in the party with lousy results get an 18 or two and the lucky git takes their low ones. You know just so that once in a lifetime roll survives in some form, even if split up.
WhylniaPendragon 01-16-06, 05:45 PM	Because our group only consists of three people, we have come up with a method that is a bit overpowered, but works. We roll 7 times,(we use Appearance as a stat) 4d6, and we re-roll 1's, putting those same 1's to the side and allowing people to add those ones in later. Anything over 18 is only allowed if the character has a racial modifier that they can add to it. That said, even with this super powerful way of rolling, I've only seen one of us get 6 18's, and that wasn't straight off the die roll. If I EVER roll that good, I'll be EXTREMELY upset if the DM makes me re-roll. It is truly a once in a lifetime thing and even if I have to put that character aside, I'll not re-roll it. Whether or not I'll beg and plead with the DM to let me play it, is another story entirely,lol
JadeSpider9643 01-16-06, 05:45 PM	If you balance it out, start the character out a level behind the group or with some kind of heafty penalty, then I don't think a re-roll is "necessary". but as a player I wouldn't WANT to play the all 18s. it sucks the fun out of the game.
Cold Napalm 01-16-06, 05:48 PM	As a DM, if I saw the rolls, I'd let you use em. I mean really, this is a once in a life time deal so I'm not gonna take that away...and any DM who does is just cruel. I might adjust some of the other players who rolled on the lower side so they can keep up though.
Cymraegmorgan 01-16-06, 05:59 PM	If a DM is using a roll method, then he must be prepared for high rolls. I would never game with someone who disallowed a player's legitimate high stat rolls. If the DM wanted average stats, he should have used another mechanic. If I was the player, and a DM asked me to scrap that set of 18s, he would probably be eating the dice.
Nom 01-16-06, 06:02 PM	There is always a risk when using statistics to balance a single sample. Note that the rules already include a reroll for characters whose scores are "too low" (PH pg 8). This is defined as a character with all scores 13 and below or an ability bonus sum of 0 or less. Given that the low tail is snipped, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a DM to institute a rule that snips the high tail too. However, this needs to be an objective rule that is in place before players start rolling. Arbitrarily culling "too powerful" characters after the fact is going to cause player annoyance, especially if you can't clearly delineate what "too powerful" is.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 06:28 PM	If a DM is using a roll method, then he must be prepared for high rolls. I would never game with someone who disallowed a player's legitimate high stat rolls. If the DM wanted average stats, he should have used another mechanic. If I was the player, and a DM asked me to scrap that set of 18s, he would probably be eating the dice. If the player in question is me, he would be lucky if that is all he eats.
Elbethamore 01-16-06, 06:43 PM	If I rolled those, I would ask the DM's permission to reroll 3 or 4 of them (keeping, say, 2 18s). I just wouldn't be interested in a character that powerful. But I can see what people mean about objecting to the DM telling them they should reroll their scores. The stat generation system was (presumably) agreed upon from the start, and if they rolled legitimately, then no one should require they reroll.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-16-06, 06:46 PM	Imagine the mage-slaying monk/paladin you could make with straight 18's!
AlanBruce 01-16-06, 06:54 PM	I have a player that rerolled for the same character 3 times, on account of his first and second rolls being sub par at best. He now has 18,18,18,17,13, and a 9. He went the half orc fighter way... scary foe indeed. However, I found a way to balance him out. Since the player wouldn't take his first set of rolls, I allowed him to reroll... albeit at a 10% xp penalty. Not content with his second roll, he rolled again... with another 10% cumulative penalty. Now he's second level, when everyone else is nearing third. You'd be surprised how players love to maximize their characters with the most juicy rolls possible... even at the expense of slow progression.
Bob Loblaw 01-16-06, 06:58 PM	If a DM is using a roll method, then he must be prepared for high rolls. I would never game with someone who disallowed a player's legitimate high stat rolls. If the DM wanted average stats, he should have used another mechanic. If I was the player, and a DM asked me to scrap that set of 18s, he would probably be eating the dice. I fully agree with this (and was going to post the same thing until you said it first). If the DM expects the players to deal with the consequences of their actions, he should do the same. The best I ever rolled (this was in front of the DM) was 18, 18, 18, 12, 10, 7. This was 2nd edition and I really wanted to play a ranger but I didn't qualify. That kinda sucked.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 06:59 PM	Double post...
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 07:00 PM	Nah, mate. With that kind of stats, be an arcane caster or psion of some sort and get yourself a Monk's Belt ASAP. Watch the look on the opponent's face when you hit as hard as the Fighter in melee combat and is just as hard to hit (high AC). I'd recommend Pixie for that. Even with a +4LA hit, with those stats, its one of the few times when I think its do-able. An alternative is a CHA based caster with Aasimar + Phrenic for +3LA.
Malruhn 01-16-06, 07:27 PM	I have been playing for over twenty-five years. For the first five or six years, it was all hack and slash, so we used to roll up characters just playing around... almost always using 4d6 dropping the lowest. On weekends, we would do several hundred. During the week, we would do from 25 to fiftry a day. And we did it for FUN (isnt' this the definition of "Geek"??). Totalled up between that and general character generation, I have rolled up many THOUSANDS of characters. I have NEVER seen straight 18s. I have also never SPOKEN to anyone who has rolled all 18s... and had the rolls WITNESSED. If you show up at my table with a character with all 18s, and nobody witnessed it, you will be rolling again. This time, WITH witnesses. I have only HEARD of two people who CLAIMED to have rolled straight 18s... and their other rolls made it even more suspect. They just nonchalantly brought these character sheets out with all 18s... everyone I know that plays would be screaming from the rooftops that they had done it!! These people lied and expected to be believed. Sorry, roll again.
nastynate 01-16-06, 07:39 PM	It would be totally awful to have those rolls stripped away. I like the idea of letting him have them and then requiring him to start a few levels behind the other PCs. Hopefully by the time he catches up in level, the other PCs will have some decent equipment, and magical items to balance things out. I'd also in retrospect allow the other PCs to reroll their stats a couple times, to see if they can get anything better, than what they already rolled. I'd rather have a party full of powerful characters than strip the Lotto winning rolls from the lucky player. I use point-buy now anyway to avoid any arbirtary advantages, but if you are still rolling for scores, you take certain risks in your own hands...
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 07:39 PM	I have been playing for over twenty-five years. For the first five or six years, it was all hack and slash, so we used to roll up characters just playing around... almost always using 4d6 dropping the lowest. On weekends, we would do several hundred. During the week, we would do from 25 to fiftry a day. And we did it for FUN (isnt' this the definition of "Geek"??). Totalled up between that and general character generation, I have rolled up many THOUSANDS of characters. I have NEVER seen straight 18s. I have also never SPOKEN to anyone who has rolled all 18s... and had the rolls WITNESSED. If you show up at my table with a character with all 18s, and nobody witnessed it, you will be rolling again. This time, WITH witnesses. I have only HEARD of two people who CLAIMED to have rolled straight 18s... and their other rolls made it even more suspect. They just nonchalantly brought these character sheets out with all 18s... everyone I know that plays would be screaming from the rooftops that they had done it!! These people lied and expected to be believed. Sorry, roll again. Incorrect. It has not been indicated whether he rolled in front of witnesses or not. However, your immediate assumption that he did not and thus cheated (please note that NONE of this has been proven, just pure conjecture on your part leading to a rant of ridiculous proportions given the premise) does show your character all too well.
Zendu 01-16-06, 07:49 PM	Assuming i saw all the rolls, id have to let him play the character, but i would let him know i was going to try to kill him on multiple occasions (my players are strangly okay with these warnings)
Lina_Inverse 01-16-06, 08:04 PM	Ive seen the same player have 2 perfect charecters, and one semi perfect(17 charisma). This is the player i ruled to be fair had to always use 3d6. He still got his charecters though.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-16-06, 08:53 PM	think about the other characters being instantly outshined.
Varia 01-16-06, 08:54 PM	Personally when I DM I have all characters rolled up in front of all the players, no exceptions, precisely to prevent any trust issues from a good roll. Every single person in the game sees the rolls, and rolls the same way, so there're no lingering suspicions of cheating or favoritism. *Hugs* Varia
Leukrythus 01-16-06, 09:21 PM	If one member of your group somehow, improbably and legitimately rolled six 18's during character creation (for those who roll that is, please no discussion of point buy) and your DM asked that player to re-roll his character (for sake of balance) how would you react? The odds of that happening are extremely close to that of rolling a natural 19. I prefer that all characters start out with the same opportunities, with the same numbers.
primemover003 01-16-06, 10:23 PM	I have been playing for over twenty-five years. For the first five or six years, it was all hack and slash, so we used to roll up characters just playing around... almost always using 4d6 dropping the lowest. On weekends, we would do several hundred. During the week, we would do from 25 to fiftry a day. And we did it for FUN (isnt' this the definition of "Geek"??). Totalled up between that and general character generation, I have rolled up many THOUSANDS of characters. I have NEVER seen straight 18s. I have also never SPOKEN to anyone who has rolled all 18s... and had the rolls WITNESSED. If you show up at my table with a character with all 18s, and nobody witnessed it, you will be rolling again. This time, WITH witnesses. I have only HEARD of two people who CLAIMED to have rolled straight 18s... and their other rolls made it even more suspect. They just nonchalantly brought these character sheets out with all 18s... everyone I know that plays would be screaming from the rooftops that they had done it!! These people lied and expected to be believed. Sorry, roll again. OK THEN... I'll make it clear again that this is a hypothetical situation. I'm not asking for the statistical probabilities of the event occuring, I'm asking what would you or your entire group do if the DM asked a player to re-roll a perfect starting character. I realize most immediately assume that the player cheated... don't. Assumption is the mother of all :censored: ups. The origin of this question can be found by following the link in the OP... Thanks:)
the skilled fighter 01-16-06, 10:29 PM	personly i would lie and act like it didnt happen and use old stats
Ivar the terrible 01-16-06, 10:55 PM	If one member of your group somehow, improbably and legitimately rolled six 18's during character creation (for those who roll that is, please no discussion of point buy) and your DM asked that player to re-roll his character (for sake of balance) how would you react? Note: this is a hypothetical, not a real situation. It came up in the Rules Counselling forum in the Stats/CR thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=569175). A few other DM's said they would have the player re-roll... I said it was a good way to have your entire table mutiny. If one my players got such a result, I would certainly not ask them to re-roll it. If I as a players got so lucky, I would be more than miffed at any DM who asked me to re-roll it. Granted, the odds are not good of it happening. Honestly, knowing my luck, the character would roll a 1 on some important save and end up dead anyways.
Maezura 01-16-06, 11:07 PM	Our 3.5e campaign usually uses total modifiers of +7, but in our 2e campaign, when someone rolls six 18's and a 18/00 for STR, we usually laugh our asses of (esp. if anyone actually witnessed it) and we, as a player, would decide to be fair and use the general point-buy sys, with +6 points.
Treebore 01-16-06, 11:32 PM	I find it funny that so many people love 3E because it stopped the "cookie cutter" character classes, but they insist on point buy characters, who are character cookies with slightly different edges. :rofl:
Jerrythehun 01-16-06, 11:53 PM	I don't see what the problem is.... If you want "fairness" and "balance", use a point-buy. The OP's problem is that a character with stats much higher than the rest of the party is more powerful than his or her fellows. With rolling, this will always be the case. It might be +1 or +7, but it will always be the case. Please note that the probability of rolling 6 18s is the same as rolling 6 3s. In other words, even if you use 4d6 drop the lowest, re-roll 1s, or whatever, as long as you are rolling, most of the time you will have (in a group of four characters) one character with low stats, two with middling stats, and one with high stats. I mean, that is the outcome you want, right? If you don't want some characters to have high stats, and others to have lower stats, use a point buy.
Gondor 01-17-06, 12:26 AM	Given the probabilities involved, I'm fairly certain that this event has never legitimately occurred in the history of the human race. Personal anecdotes notwithstanding, I think I'd sooner believe that some sort of delusion has happened (or, more likely, that the dice or the method of rolling them are significantly less than truly random). If, as a DM, I saw a player roll this and was convinced that it was legitimate, I would let him play the character. After all, I don't arbitrarily grant re-rolls for poor scores, so I won't enforce them for high scores. If, as a player, I rolled those scores, I think I would name the character after myself. It would be interesting to be... well... monstrously elite for once.
Feor 01-17-06, 12:53 AM	being too lazy to read 2 pages of replies... I will say that I'd accept the re-roll request. I generally get nervous about outshining the party if I roll more than a couple 16+s myself. (I'd probably expect to be asked to re-roll if I got all 16s & 17s, never mind 18s) I would, however, ask for something a little less gaming-breaking in way of compensation for losing my god-like stats. Maybe some extra class skills/starting skill points, a free +2 to one stat after my re-roll, an "inherited" masterwork weapon or suit of armor, something like that.
Tiran 01-17-06, 01:12 AM	I'd let them keep it. Rolling 6 18's is amazingly lucky. Why should I punish them for it. However, I'd only allow it if done in front of me.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-17-06, 06:56 AM	i know this is just reiterating my first post, but seriously do you want to outshine the rest of the party? personally i resent the fact that while my character has the equivelent of 52 point buy my friend has the equivelent of 71. on that regard, im at least glad that my character is slightly stronger in the places that matter for it, but if we were playing more similar characters (scout + artificer respectively, now) i would definately be more outshined, and care more. if someone popped out with all 18s id want even more to have played point buy, or equal stat sets, which i think is just better over all.
The Phantom Flan Flinger 01-17-06, 09:33 AM	If one member of your group somehow, improbably and legitimately rolled six 18's during character creation (for those who roll that is, please no discussion of point buy) and your DM asked that player to re-roll his character (for sake of balance) how would you react?I would point out what an amazing stroke of luck this was and how this moment is what everyone who's ever picked up those dice to generate a character dreams of. What a great change from the normal bunch of Mr Averages and Mr Weak-Points. I would hope that this would make the DM think of this as an opportunity for a new and interesting collection of plot arcs and not as a problem. I would suggest some possible concepts for such an incredible character as this one was going to be. I would suggest some possible concepts for a party built around one "special" character. I would suggest some concepts that I am thinking of using which are based around the idea of there being someone so brilliant in the group. If the DM stuck to his guns, I would wait to see what the lucky player had to say. Knowing that the situation is never likely to arise again, I would not say anything more unless the player wasn't happy at the idea of a re-roll. Not my battle, and if the DM is otherwise great why risk the group over a point of principle? Assuming the player doesn't want to re-roll, my next position would be to suggest that instead of weakening the lucky player's character perhaps we could increase everyone else's scores. This would make it easier for him to create properly balanced encounters that challenge everyone in the party equally, without taking any of the uniqueness away from the lucky one. For instance, how about everyone replaces their lowest stat with an 18 and their second lowest with a 15? Then he gets to play around with more powerful monsters to make up for it all. If a DM insisted on a re-roll I would ask for point-buy in the future. What's the point in risking a bad statline if you know that you roll well you may not be allowed to keep it? If it was me with all the 18's, I'd ask if I could instead pick a concept, maybe one I've always wanted to play but never had the stats for, and write down whatever stats I think that person would have. I doubt there would be more than two 18's. Although I would concede to a demand to re-roll, I would resent it.
DarknessEternal 01-17-06, 10:19 AM	I would respond with "Why didn't you just use points-buy if you're going to arbitrarily limit randomness anyway? After all, points-buy will do that, except it isn't lying about what's it's motives are."
Rhomphaia 01-17-06, 11:52 AM	This is one of the two primary reasons I use point buy (the other being the event of all 3s). Anyway, I would let the player keep the roll, but I would have that player make a choice. He would either have to; A) Let all the other players have strait 18s for their rolls too. or B) Take a +2 LA for the character and not gain any abilities or skills beyond level 1 in their class until they pass third level. These are done simply for the reason to keep him from outshining other players constantly and consistently. If he doesn't like the choices, he can leave. To be honest, I would rather have one player leave than have the rest of the group leave because I was 'playing favorites' and let one guy have such awesome stats with no drawback.
GeeBee 01-17-06, 12:50 PM	Since no one specifically stated whether the rolls were done in front of the DM or not, I think it is reasonable to toss out the possibility that the person cheated. This IS an assumption, but a reasonable one I think, given the odds. To avoid accusing anyone when I DM, I simply reserve my right to ask for a re-roll on ANY stats not generated in front of myself or the Mrs., no matter the results. Everyone is forewarned and they have little ground to stand upon if they get bitten by it. They know the rules. That being said...if the rolls are generated in front of me, cool! Welcome to the big time, because you will be driving many large story-arcs. As a player, on the other hand, I would be pretty darn upset that the DM didn't have enough creativity to deal with a character like that. If he SEES me drop 6 18's, and tells me to re-roll, I'm at least going to ask for an explanation. If that explanation includes anything like "it'll ruin game balance," I will severely beat him about the head with his DMG until he becomes more creative and learns how to do it properly ("Do you get it now?" WHACK "How about now?") I would never in a million years assume that he would accept them if he didn't see it, though. As I stated above, he would be reasonably suspicious, given the overwhelming odds; assuming cheating in this case is not at all unreasonable, and I would curse my own stupidity for not having a reliable witness.
Bruunwald 01-17-06, 01:06 PM	I'm a DM and player, and I'd support the reroll in both cases, even if it were my character. I understand what superpowered characters can do to an otherwise non-superpowered game, first-hand, and so am always helping my DM by playing down and playing as fair-and-square (including my mistakes) as I can. The DM is most often the one in the hot-seat, as far as fairness and responsibility goes. It is too easy for too many players to forget that they need to cooperate to make a successful game. It isn't all about indulging their desires. A good game is about compromise and fairness, to and from fellow players, and to and from the DM. Now, personally, I would allow the player to keep a couple of those 18s, and reroll the rest. The DM has to think about the longterm enjoyment of everybody, and the players ought to, as well.
Bruunwald 01-17-06, 01:19 PM	As a player, on the other hand, I would be pretty darn upset that the DM didn't have enough creativity to deal with a character like that. If he SEES me drop 6 18's, and tells me to re-roll, I'm at least going to ask for an explanation. If that explanation includes anything like "it'll ruin game balance," I will severely beat him about the head with his DMG until he becomes more creative and learns how to do it properly ("Do you get it now?" WHACK "How about now?") Nice propaganda. So the DM who does not cater to a single player's every whim is simply showing his lack of creativity? Is there somebody specifically you're angry with, that we should know about? Look, this doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with creativity. Even the least creative person in the world COULD come up with some patronizing, aggrandizing thing to accommodate one guy's desire to keep and wield Real Ultimate Power (TM). Or he could be a grown up who knows about resentment and makes an attempt to stem the flow before his game bleeds out. How about this for an explanation: The DM is not a baby sitter and this single player is not the star of the show. I don't see anything lacking, creatively, in that. It's not a creativity issue. It's a choice of focusing on a group, rather than a primma donna. No DM needs to waste his time bending everything to make one guy happy.
Rhomphaia 01-17-06, 01:37 PM	Since no one specifically stated whether the rolls were done in front of the DM or not, I think it is reasonable to toss out the possibility that the person cheated. This IS an assumption, but a reasonable one I think, given the odds. To avoid accusing anyone when I DM, I simply reserve my right to ask for a re-roll on ANY stats not generated in front of myself or the Mrs., no matter the results. Everyone is forewarned and they have little ground to stand upon if they get bitten by it. They know the rules. I do believe the general assumption here is that the stats were rolled in front of the DM. That being said...if the rolls are generated in front of me, cool! Welcome to the big time, because you will be driving many large story-arcs. And the rest of your players will be feeling left out, alienated, and feeling like they don't matter. Good call. :ayyyy!: As a player, on the other hand, I would be pretty darn upset that the DM didn't have enough creativity to deal with a character like that. If he SEES me drop 6 18's, and tells me to re-roll, I'm at least going to ask for an explanation. If that explanation includes anything like "it'll ruin game balance," I will severely beat him about the head with his DMG until he becomes more creative and learns how to do it properly ("Do you get it now?" WHACK "How about now?") Someone likes being the center of attention I see. You must understand that helping maintain game balance is part of a DM's job, an important part of it. It helps maintain the fun for all players involved. If not being allowed to keep those stats isn't fun for you, then guess what. You don't have to play. It takes a very immature player to throw a tantrum like the one you described, or even mention such a tantrum. Also, tell me what you would do if I gave you one of my above suggestions? Would you still throw a fit, even though I let you keep the rolls? I would never in a million years assume that he would accept them if he didn't see it, though. As I stated above, he would be reasonably suspicious, given the overwhelming odds; assuming cheating in this case is not at all unreasonable, and I would curse my own stupidity for not having a reliable witness. Don't try to sound intelligent by repeating twice in one post about the general assumption of an entire thread.
HermitIX 01-17-06, 01:42 PM	I would let him keep 2 of his 18s. But he has to re roll his other stats. He can keep any additional 18s he gets. And as a nod to the fact he got very lucky on his first round, I would let him ignore any roll that came up as less than 12.
IceFractal 01-17-06, 02:14 PM	Frankly, if you're going to use random stat generation, you have to accept randomness. Part of random stat generation is that you often don't get the spread you want, sometimes it even interferes with playing the character you had in mind. The converse though, is that sometimes you can get lucky and get an amazing set of rolls. And bottom line, its not fair to leave the risk and remove the reward. The key thing here is that you have to lay out how things are going to work before people start rolling, and then be consistent. If we agreed to roll for stats, with no upper limit being mentioned, and then one is imposed, after you're already celebrating your good luck - well that's pretty lousy. If you don't want randomness, use point-buy.
SamirTrollslayer 01-17-06, 02:18 PM	My best were 18,18,18,17,10,6.
RogerWilco 01-17-06, 02:33 PM	We used to roll 3d6 in the past (2E), but I greatly prefer point buy, just because it get's rid of the possible huge differences in the party. I have seen some sickening differences between party members because of differences in stats. Especially at low level the difference between 18,17,16,16,15,14 and 4,8,9,10,11,13, really is asking for trouble, I know from experience. But as to the point: As DM: I would only accept rolls made in front of my eyes, prefereably with my dice. Everything else get's re-rolled. As a player: If the DM would have posed a maximum before everybody started rolling (like no total over 96 points), then I would grudingly agree to re-roll. If there was no such limit posed before the rolls where started, then in my group there would be a mutiny. There would be no play untill the player was allowed to keep his stats.
LiamDeclan 01-17-06, 02:37 PM	If you the DM witnessed these rolls and you take them away that is so wrong. His or her feelings are going to be hurt and the player is going to be really ****** at you. If you have to take them away don't be really evil about it. Let him keep at least one 18 score and maybe give the character some special ability because he is favored by his god or something. Better yet let him keep his scores and make him re-roll a different set. In order for him to keep his awesome rolls make him follow a code of conduct from his god or something like playing a paladin. If at any time he diverts from the code or doesn't do what his god put him in your campaign to do he reverts back to his mortal 2nd set of scores. This offers some really good roleplaying opportunities if you remain neutral and professional about it and don't forget to not overshadow the other players while you do this.
MysterYvil 01-17-06, 02:38 PM	Two words: point buy. No one in our group is a fan of rolling stats. Through our long experience with rolling, it seems to encourage killing off of characters, whining, charges of unfairness, superiority/inferiority complexes, difficulty in adjusting encounters for the group as a whole, cheating, and a plethora of other unpleasant and distracting factors. On the whole we've found it's just not worth it.
RedWizard 01-17-06, 02:47 PM	18 is a legal stat. Everyone of his rolls would be legite by the book so the DM would have no right outside the grandfather clause to ask for a re-roll. If those rolls did take place with the DM watching then I say let him play. Then invite him to Vegas.
DarknessEternal 01-17-06, 03:11 PM	Frankly, if you're going to use random stat generation, you have to accept randomness. So important it needed to be repeated.
primemover003 01-17-06, 03:20 PM	Nice sig Darkness... you should include "It's Minus or Penalty... Malus is a kind of apple tree." Thanks for the replies everyone... other than the repeated calls for point buy (which has no soul) most of you agreed with me that the DM should leave such a stroke of luck alone. I know my players would mutiny and likely keelhaul me if I ever asked that.
20goingon1232 01-17-06, 03:33 PM	Thanks for the replies everyone... other than the repeated calls for point buy (which has no soul) most of you agreed with me that the DM should leave such a stroke of luck alone. I know my players would mutiny and likely keelhaul me if I ever asked that. You should be so lucky. I would lose friends over that. And rightly so too.
Maghwi 01-17-06, 03:58 PM	One of my players regularly rolls 3-4 18's when creating characters (best 3 out of 4 d6 method). Always in front of me of course. Often with my dice! Drives me crazy because I can't roll better than 14 most days. It all balances out tho...he needs the extra bonuses, cause he can't roll higher than 8 on a d20 most days either. :rolleyes: If one of my players somehow managed to roll 6 18's, I'd let them play it. And in any situation where I have one more enemy archer than characters, guess who would get the extra arrow? They got the stats to take it, after all. :D
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-17-06, 10:34 PM	Part of random stat generation is that you often don't get the spread you want, sometimes it even interferes with playing the character you had in mind. The converse though, is that sometimes you can get lucky and get an amazing set of rolls. And bottom line, its not fair to leave the risk and remove the reward. Quoted for truth. Exceptional people develop exceptional reputation, for good or bad. A straight 18's character would likely become a celebrity very soon. While this can be good for him (and annoying to players that may feel left out), it can also be bad for him (everybody knows him, enemies can easily find and hound him because everyone's talking about him). The idea of being touched by some god and only able to maintain his exceptional abilities if he does right with that god is also good, so long as the player has some input on which god and the purpose.
tiercel 01-17-06, 11:33 PM	Well... this is a reason I don't like rolling for stats. (Yes, yes, I know about the "cookie cutter" argument against point-buy, but that is another thread. Actually, several hundred other threads.) However, if we were really doing random roll, and the actual roll was witnessed... ...I'd check the dice. No offense, you know, but hot DIGGETY that's improbable. And you can buy weighted dice, after all. If the dice were found to be highly suspicious, I'd probably let the other players vote on what to do to the scoundrel. If the dice didn't seem particularly unusual, though, I'd probably just take my lumps and let the guy keep the scores. After all, he would have just "used up"* a piece of luck statistically equivalent (or more) to winning the lottery or falling out of a jetliner at 30000 feet and surviving. * Yes, I know the notion of "using up" luck is a superstitious notion. If I flip a fair coin 10 times and get 10 heads, the chance of the next flip being a head is still 50%, it isn't more likely to go tails just because of the improbability of the preceding flips. Still, in some sense, the superstition exists because most all of us feel like, to some extent, that's how luck works even when we know better rationally.
Jerrythehun 01-17-06, 11:46 PM	The entire concept of luck is tied in closely with our evolution. If an activity is productive, it is profitable to continue it, even if you don't understand why it is productive. Thus the concept of luck is selective, meaning that individuals who "believe" in luck are more likely to be successful than those who don't, in a primitive environment. This is also the evolutionary origin of superstition and thus religion. But I digress. :D
Malruhn 01-18-06, 12:43 AM	After being nearly beaten after my original post - and reading the linky in the OP, I will add the following: If the rolls were witnessed - congrats! You have one hell of a character to play!! If they weren't - grab the dice again, 'cuz you're one rerolling fool. Now, that being said, I would have to put a limit on rolling.... somehow... You can have a 36 point buy - OR roll - and accept what you roll up to a MAXIMUM of a 74 point buy. And you don't get negative points for rolling less than an 8... Nah - that sucks. If you roll it (and it is witnessed) - you play it. Good luck. :rolleyes:
syntaxerror37 01-18-06, 12:57 AM	If a player rolled 6 18s, the first thing we do is break out the alcoholic beverages and toast the player. That is something to celebrate. Then, as a DM, I would give some boosts to the rest of the party. This may be stat boosts, better equipment, extra spells or even a bonus feat. Mr. 18 will still shine, as he well should, but the others won’t be left in the dust.
Kursk 01-18-06, 01:10 AM	Hard to say. As a DM, if I saw the rolls then I'd let them keep it.
Elbethamore 01-18-06, 09:28 AM	I posted earlier that, as a player, I would ASK to reroll, negating the need for the DM to say anything at all... Upon further reflection, I think, to have more control over the stats that followed (as opposed to taking a new random stat generation), and assuming a 4d6 drop lowest, I might keep some of those lowest dice that I dropped. Thus, I could use a 6 6 6 1 as a 13 instead of an 18. I doubt too many DM's would object, and I wouldn't have to worry about anything lower than a 13. My :twocents:
Dead_Karma 01-18-06, 09:49 AM	my dm would most likely let me keep the score, if for no other reason than to see if i actually do play a gnome barbarian.
Illithid13 01-18-06, 11:00 AM	My reaction would be to hand him the dice to inspect for "cheeting" purposes, and when he found them not to be liget, I'd say there, I just Re-rolled 6 18's... It every player's dream to have exceptional stats and if a player rolls it ligetly, then as a DM I won't deny him of this. Besides, any decent DM should be able to provide challanges that don't reflect the stat usage. If the DM still asked me to re-roll, I'd tell him that if he makes me, I'd rather not play in his game (politely of course). Granted this is coming from someone who's good rolls hardly ever have anything higher than a 15.
wonlee76 01-18-06, 11:22 AM	In all honesty, I would ask the player to re-roll just as I would ask a player woh rolled really crummy stats to re-roll. The problem with rolling stats is it opens up a wide room of variation between different PCs. 1 PC might have stats much higher then another PC's stats. Might cause a bit of friction when one PC feels less useful just because one guy got lucky on his rolls. The disparity will be pretty big where you have 1 PC with all 18s and 3 other PCs with a net bonus on stats of +8 or +10 lets say. If it was a solo campaign, I would let the player keep the stats since there are no other players who will become jealous or have stat envy. :P But in a group setting, I would ask for a re-roll only for the sake of the group being closer in balance with each other. Or in the alternative, ask the player to reduce the stats voluntarily to the second best set of stats on the table (at least for total bonuses purposes, not the actual numbers rolled by the other player).
green_yawgmoth 01-18-06, 11:35 AM	If a DM doesn't want his players to have the chnce for inordinately good stats, he shouldn't have them roll at all. If I rolled all 18s and the DM told me to reroll, I'd tell him to shove it and leave the game. If I can't have the stats I legitimately rolled because the DM didn't like them, then there's a huge chance he's going to tell me I didnt crit because it ruins his storyline, or that magic missile suddenly needs an attack roll to hit in the middle of a battle (happened before), or god knows what else. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
crossbow 01-18-06, 11:43 AM	As a DM, I’d say: ‘Wow. Good job. Now keep two and re-roll the rest.’ I’m more interested in party balance and cohesion than I am spotlight characters like this. Like wise, I also allow those players that roll abysmally to re-roll. Would this lead to player mutiny? Not in my group. I clearly explained what kind of game I was going to run and how I was going to run it before things started. I find that saves me a lot of problems in the long run. Why not use point buy? Players choice. I put the question and the restrictions to them and they wanted to roll. Either way works for me. crossbow
geekling 01-18-06, 11:49 AM	If a DM doesn't want his players to have the chnce for inordinately good stats, he shouldn't have them roll at all. If I rolled all 18s and the DM told me to reroll, I'd tell him to shove it and leave the game. If I can't have the stats I legitimately rolled because the DM didn't like them, then there's a huge chance he's going to tell me I didnt crit because it ruins his storyline, or that magic missile suddenly needs an attack roll to hit in the middle of a battle (happened before), or god knows what else.] One have to ask. Would you do the same if you were asked to reroll that set you rolled up with your highest stat being an 8? One can't help being curious.
Rhomphaia 01-18-06, 11:55 AM	If a DM doesn't want his players to have the chnce for inordinately good stats, he shouldn't have them roll at all. If I rolled all 18s and the DM told me to reroll, I'd tell him to shove it and leave the game. If I can't have the stats I legitimately rolled because the DM didn't like them, then there's a huge chance he's going to tell me I didnt crit because it ruins his storyline, or that magic missile suddenly needs an attack roll to hit in the middle of a battle (happened before), or god knows what else. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif And just where do you get this assumption? There is a huge difference between disallowing an unbalancing and overpowering character, no matter how it is generated, and arbitrarily deciding crits don't work. The former is simply keeping party cohesion in mind, the latter is bad DMing. Now you may have a point if all the other players rolled no less than 15 or 16 on any of their stats, but otherwise a character with strait 18s is severely overpowered and unbalancing. It is comparable to allowing a player to bring in a PC three or four levels higher than the rest of the characters.
BoringInfoGuy 01-18-06, 11:58 AM	In my group, I am the low roller. Consistantly. My stats are typicaly the lowest in the group. Now according to CRAW, as long as your total bonuses are +1 or better, then you have a viable character. And it's true. One of the most interesting characters I've played had only a +3 total bonus. All my rolls were either a +1 or +0 bonus. Now, if someone had rolled the natual 18's (+20 bonus total), and I had only the minimum +1 bonus, then I would argue heavily to let that player keep his rolls, and argue against the DM buffing mine "just because". But I'm of the play the dice as they land school.
GeeBee 01-18-06, 11:59 AM	A number of folks have suggested that limiting perfect stats would help reduce stat envy, but I disagree. A jealous attitude is rarely this rational. Stat envy completely overlooks the fact that the offending player is on the same team, and that their success translates into group success. A team who can't handle a single star in their game has more problems than a single powerful character. This also assumes that the DM cannot or will not allow the other players to have their moments of glory either. Power inequities will always exist in a game with random stat generation and random success chances, and a good DM needs to be prepared to deal with this in every session. If this bugs you, a diceless system might be more to your liking (I really like the Amber Diceless game myself, though I can't ever find enough players). I think a group would be reasonably upset if their DM took away such a rare and lucky occurence simply because he was unable to run a balanced game within the written rules. If a DM tried to force a re-roll or impose some kind of game "balance" on perfect stats, I would walk away. A game consisting of jealous players and an unskilled (or careless) DM is a recipe for a bad gaming experience.
GeeBee 01-18-06, 12:10 PM	And just where do you get this assumption? This is not an unreasonable assumption; I have seen it many times myself. ...but otherwise a character with strait 18s is severely overpowered and unbalancing. It is comparable to allowing a player to bring in a PC three or four levels higher than the rest of the characters. No, it isn't. Perfect stats are not the same as three hit dice, three levels of class abilities, another feat, increased base attack bonuses and saves, 3 levels of skill points and (possibly) a stat increase.
Rhomphaia 01-18-06, 12:16 PM	A number of folks have suggested that limiting perfect stats would help reduce stat envy, but I disagree. A jealous attitude is rarely this rational. Stat envy completely overlooks the fact that the offending player is on the same team, and that their success translates into group success. A team who can't handle a single star in their game has more problems than a single powerful character. This also assumes that the DM cannot or will not allow the other players to have their moments of glory either. Power inequities will always exist in a game with random stat generation and random success chances, and a good DM needs to be prepared to deal with this in every session. If this bugs you, a diceless system might be more to your liking (I really like the Amber Diceless game myself, though I can't ever find enough players). I think a group would be reasonably upset if their DM took away such a rare and lucky occurence simply because he was unable to run a balanced game within the written rules. If a DM tried to force a re-roll or impose some kind of game "balance" on perfect stats, I would walk away. A game consisting of jealous players and an unskilled (or careless) DM is a recipe for a bad gaming experience. emphasis mine First of all, thank you for calling everyone who disagrees with you envious, unskilled and careless. No, really, I needed that wake-up call to my bad DMing. In fact, I am so bad that maybe I should just quit playing. Anyway, what makes you think that just because a DM asks a player to reroll those stats is unskilled or worried about jealousy? For me, I am more worried about the other players having fun. If one player rolled much better on ability scores than the rest of the group, then they will do everying reasonably well without investing anything mechanically and far outshine anyone in whatever area they have invested in. This really is a character without limits. This is a character who can make the rest of the group feel not-so-special real quick. Other players will be constrained by their ability scores as to what they can or cannot do well, not 'Mr 18' here. He does EVERYTHING well and even if there is something he doesn't do well, heh, he can just take a class level to cover that hole. Point is, one character with so much capability and potential above the others is just going to naturally march up to the forefront of the group and become the 'main character' while everyone else becomes glorified NPCs. As a player I hate it and as a DM I hate it even more. Point is, game balance is not about keeping rules in place. It's about keeping the fun in place. If you can't have fun without playing a character that outshines everyone else in everything, then I think a DM who asks for a re-roll is the least of your problems.
DM Denubis 01-18-06, 12:23 PM	Closest I've ever seen was my ex rolling 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 17. Rolled in front of everyone, legit dice, and one hell of an amazed DM. He let her keep it. But that's because we have several people who DM in my group. I'm usually against rolling, and encourage point buy. Alternate DM #1 is liberal with stats, allowing rerolls and the like, which is fine. Alternate DM #2 (Who we thankfully got rid of.) is a stat Nazi. Things like "Sure, roll 4d6, drop the lowest. But nothing over a 16." have been said. When I was going to play a grey elf to boost my one 16 into an 18 INT, he said that it couldn't go over 16, and would have to stay there. Usually, I get the brunt of this insanity, because I'm a known min/maxer. DM #2 is of the mind that fighters must dominate everything, and wizards and rogues and clerics are all useless. No, wait, clerics are fine, but only as band-aid dispensers. Alright, rant over.
Rhomphaia 01-18-06, 12:40 PM	No, it isn't. Perfect stats are not the same as three hit dice, three levels of class abilities, another feat, increased base attack bonuses and saves, 3 levels of skill points and (possibly) a stat increase. Actually, try playing it from level one. I assure you, it is the same...and this is just for characters who play a class that only needs one or two good ability scores (fighters and sorcerers for example). If the character's class suffers from MAD most of the time (monks, paladins and many clerics) this becomes a non-issue and further boosts the power of the character. At the very least, any character with stats this good is equal to a 'normal' character of two levels higher. Think about it, with all of these +4s, this character is getting more skill points, possibly the equivilent of an extra hit die (or more depending on the class), attack bonuses, save bonuses and everything else you can think of. This isn't just in one or two areas either. This is in ALL of the areas I have mentioned above. Only class features and actual extra hit die are excluded. You cannot tell me this is not more powerful than a 'normal' character and expect me to take it seriously (normal as established by the 25 point buy standard that the game is based on).
Acirema 01-18-06, 01:06 PM	Let the dice be kept, and let them play with the 18's. No restrictions on what can and can't be played outside of already stated confines. No making htem start x lvls behind the other players or with some sort of xp penalty. For the love of all that is sane, they rolled these stats. No assumtions that they weren't rolled with out a witness, as one would be crazy to claim 6 18's without a witness. Don't make the person's charactor the target of all the bad things because of his dice rolls, nor believe that just because he rolled 6 18's for his stats that he'll outshine the other PC's. A party works as a team, not the other way around. (Unless the name of the game is the main hero and his lackeys.) Do remember that the rolls for his stats aren't a direct reflection of the hundreds of other rolls that he or she will roll throughout the course of thier charactor's life. Well...that's my view on it. Take away my rolls when they've been rolled in front of witnesses and you'll be finding a new player. Dice rolls don't make the charactor, the person makes the charactor. No reason to screw the player for the rolls of the dice on stats. ~Ace~
GeeBee 01-18-06, 01:51 PM	Anyway, what makes you think that just because a DM asks a player to reroll those stats is unskilled or worried about jealousy? For me, I am more worried about the other players having fun... This really is a character without limits. This is a character who can make the rest of the group feel not-so-special real quick. This game isn't all about die rolls. If the only way for a player to have fun or feel "special" is by insisting on party homogeny, there is either a problem with the DM (who isn't providing meaningful encounters that involve roleplaying) or a problem with the player (who can only have fun if their die rolls are awesome). I should add that this doesn't just apply to perfect stats either. This also applies to those "less than optimal" stats that sometimes pop up. A group that can't handle the really low or really high stats isn't what I'm looking for, thanks. I prefer to play with people whose sense of fun derives from decisions instead of dice.
green_yawgmoth 01-18-06, 01:53 PM	One have to ask. Would you do the same if you were asked to reroll that set you rolled up with your highest stat being an 8? One can't help being curious. Of course not, because (as per the PHB) uber-low stats deserve a reroll because the character is screwed otherwise. There is nothing in the books about rerolling if your lowest stat is a 16, so I would expect to keep the stats I rolled. A more appropriate question would be "If you rolled all 10s and a 14, would you keep it?" since those are the lowest stats one can roll and still keep, under the PHB. And the answer is yes, provided the otherplayers are constrained to the same rigid rules of stat generation. It'd be a challenge, but I've always wanted to play an abjurer. ;D http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Rhomphaia 01-18-06, 02:22 PM	This game isn't all about die rolls. If the only way for a player to have fun or feel "special" is by insisting on party homogeny, there is either a problem with the DM (who isn't providing meaningful encounters that involve roleplaying) or a problem with the player (who can only have fun if their die rolls are awesome). I should add that this doesn't just apply to perfect stats either. This also applies to those "less than optimal" stats that sometimes pop up. A group that can't handle the really low or really high stats isn't what I'm looking for, thanks. I prefer to play with people whose sense of fun derives from decisions instead of dice. Okay, re-read this phrase from one of my recent posts. Point is, one character with so much capability and potential above the others is just going to naturally march up to the forefront of the group and become the 'main character' while everyone else becomes glorified NPCs. As a player I hate it and as a DM I hate it even more. This is due to the nature of the game. Everything is now based on a skill check or a saving throw. The character who does things consistently well will naturally become the leader of the group, not only in combat and challenges, but in social situations too (Oh my, Mr 18 is so strong and handsome." "I hear he is really smart too."). Even a DM who tosses dice rolls out of social encounters is going to have to take into account that 18 Charisma (and not to mention the 18s in Str, Dex and Con that make for a great physique). To do otherwise is *gasp* unfairly penalizing the player for his good stats. No matter your play style, you will have to take the uber-man into account. You cannot escape it. As I said above, This is the sort of character that by choice or force is often thrust into the limelight at the expense of the other players feeling useful, since Mr 18 can solve most problems with his superior genetics. Only when he can't does he look at his cohorts and ask them to step in. As I said before, I have seen this in action and these games get real boring real quick. In the old days of D&D, a time without skill checks, or even non-weapon proficiencies, then a character with strait 18s didn't matter as much (though 18s still did matter). It was mostly a game of pure role play and skill, building up your connections and coming up with clever strategies and out-witting the DM's traps and puzzles. That just isn't the way the game works anymore. One high stat in 3.x is good and two or three are potentially game breaking if only one, maybe two characters have such stats. Having all your stats the best they can be is just ludicrous and overpowering, for the reasons I stated above. A PC with this Khan-esque genetic superiority is simply asking for trouble in a group. It may not happen right away, and it may never get voiced, but players at some point will become dissatisfied.
20goingon1232 01-18-06, 02:51 PM	Anyway, what makes you think that just because a DM asks a player to reroll those stats is unskilled or worried about jealousy? Let's see: From you: "...but otherwise a character with strait 18s is severely overpowered..." From Crossbow: "...I’m more interested in party balance and cohesion than I am spotlight characters like this..." From Wonlee: "...The problem with rolling stats is it opens up a wide room of variation between different PCs. 1 PC might have stats much higher then another PC's stats. Might cause a bit of friction when one PC feels less useful just because one guy got lucky on his rolls..." From Syntaxerror: "...Then, as a DM, I would give some boosts to the rest of the party. This may be stat boosts, better equipment, extra spells or even a bonus feat. Mr. 18 will still shine, as he well should, but the others won’t be left in the dust." From RogerWilco: "...Especially at low level the difference between 18,17,16,16,15,14 and 4,8,9,10,11,13, really is asking for trouble, I know from experience." From you (again): "...And the rest of your players will be feeling left out, alienated, and feeling like they don't matter." From Bruunwald: "Or he could be a grown up who knows about resentment and makes an attempt to stem the flow before his game bleeds out." From you (once more!): "...These are done simply for the reason to keep him from outshining other players constantly and consistently. If he doesn't like the choices, he can leave. To be honest, I would rather have one player leave than have the rest of the group leave because I was 'playing favorites' and let one guy have such awesome stats with no drawback." From Sae Cael Ocnar: "i know this is just reiterating my first post, but seriously do you want to outshine the rest of the party?" From Sae (again): "think about the other characters being instantly outshined." Now, after all that, I ask you a question: Why would the players feel resentment towards the one guy with the good stats (or the great build for that matter)? What is the emotion behind just a beast that will cause the game to be destroyed? Your answer to the above two questions should also answer your own question.
Rhomphaia 01-18-06, 02:54 PM	I already answered those extensively in previous posts.
20goingon1232 01-18-06, 03:25 PM	I already answered those extensively in previous posts. Then why ask questions to which the answers you already know? Jealousy is an ugly word. Unfortunately, in this case, it is also an ACCURATE word.
Lincoln Hills 01-18-06, 03:28 PM	(Is there an emoticon for "rudely elbowing two bickering posters apart so that the person writing the emoticon can shoot off an ill-advised opinion of his own"? No? Sheesh, what do you people keep emoticons around for then?) If a DM is using "rolled statistics", he's open to the possibility of a statistically superior character appearing at some point. It doesn't have to be straight 18s, by the way: I'd say any character who had straight 16s (or a 14-18 range in her stats) will still raise campaign problems. If there's no doubt that the rolls were come by honestly, I would not feel right yanking those golden dice out of the player's hands and making him go sit in the corner. The troubling part is that there will be a tendency for the DM to focus on the high-stat fellow, increasing his share of 'camera time' at the expense of the other characters. The DM in such a campaign should try to balance this by (not overtly!) focusing the campaign on the other characters somewhat. Somehow the high-stat character is not often the one who discovers the vital clue, has a useful NPC contact or is challenged to a street-fight. Artifical? Awkward? Yes, but it's better this way.
Rhomphaia 01-18-06, 03:34 PM	Then why ask questions to which the answers you already know? Jealousy is an ugly word. Unfortunately, in this case, it is also an ACCURATE word. Nice. Insult me again and find yourself reported. Also, I take issue with the fact that you seem to be completely ignoring my posts, or reading selectively. When did I indicate jealousy of any sort on my part? When did I mention jealousy on the part of players? I didn't. I have stated the simple fact such an uber-character will naturally take the lead in a campaign. Read previous posts for a full explaination of this and how it tends to happen. I HAVE seen it before and it SUCKS. It breaks games.
Rhomphaia 01-18-06, 04:15 PM	First, it is not an insult if it is true. Second, you asked a specific question, which I quoted previously. I answered your question. Anything else is made up on your part. Third, read your own question again. The one I answered. Fourth, regardless of what you try to say, resentment of another person because of some superior qualities or qualities you presume to be superior IS jealousy. Fear that you cannot outshine him. Anger because of the same. That is classic jealousy. If there was ever a photograph definition of the term, that is it. Nothing in this word, no flowery language, no self-justification, can cover that. It is basic fact, once you get down to it. Okay, I am about done. I obviously am not getting through to you. I have said twice now that my position is not one of jealousy. Read my posts again. Becomming a wallflower is boring. Players become dissatisfied with that. Of course, you only read what you want to so I won't waste my breath. However, before I concede this argument, tell me which is worse, jealousy or vanity?
trapspringer 01-18-06, 04:28 PM	I think this is actually impossible. I know that statistically it is inevitable that three randomly determined base-six number will, when added together, result in the sum of eighteen six times in a row, but dice aren't technically random. The number generated is the result of countless variables, but it isn't random. This means that a person's variability will prevent the exact same series of variables from occuring six times in a row, thus preventing such a roll from ever legitimately occuring. BTW, CG, I call BS (not on you, but on your player). I have stated the simple fact such an uber-character will naturally take the lead in a campaign. Read previous posts for a full explaination of this and how it tends to happen. I HAVE seen it before and it SUCKS. It breaks games. Not in my experience. My games frequently have a "lead" character. This is often not the same character as the party leader, but a single character is usually the focus of the overriding campaign arc. My players all know this and know that they, too, will have a turn as the "main character." It generally makes the game a very fun experience for everyone, because the plot can be devloped in more depth. That said, you need the right kind of group to do this. If your players are under the age of... (actually I started doing this when I was fourteen, so...) twelve or of similar maturity, I would advise against it. If you observe that one player to be dominating gameplay and decision-making, it would be a good idea to shift the focus of the campaign a little (or a lot). Otherwise, I think it can be a very rewarding campaign model, especially in games limited to a life of around six to twelve months. Besides which, ability bonuses fade to average importance by upper-low levels, and are no longer important for comparison in any repstect accepting other characters of the same class (an eighteen dex won't make the fighter as good as a rogue at level seven). At early levels, this is not true.
20goingon1232 01-18-06, 04:29 PM	Okay, I am about done. I obviously am not getting through to you. I have said twice now that my position is not one of jealousy. Read my posts again. Becomming a wallflower is boring. Players become dissatisfied with that. Of course, you only read what you want to so I won't waste my breath. However, before I concede this argument, tell me which is worse, jealousy or vanity? Becoming a wallflower and resenting the person that isn't IS jealousy. QED. Who said anything about vanity? Making an effective character is vanity? Please. Don't make me laugh. You might as well call all Olympic athletes vain bastards. And that is as sure a sign of jealousy as any I've ever seen.
Landman 01-18-06, 05:44 PM	I would be very unhappy. You chose the rolling system and that is what I got. I'm keeping it unless you want to quickly escalate your campaign into a player vs DM conflict. In the future you might consider guidelines for high rolls in your system.
Kellendros 01-18-06, 06:34 PM	To the OP: It would be… unpleasant, to say the least (for the DM that is). If I was the DM, I’d as soon cut of my as demand someone re-roll in that situation. Rhomphaia: I’m not here debate the emotional root or lack thereof to you position, just to hammer the flawed logic in your argument. >>>I have stated the simple fact such an uber-character will naturally take the lead in a campaign. Read previous posts for a full explaination of this and how it tends to happen. I HAVE seen it before and it SUCKS. It breaks games.<<< Sorry, but no. Anecdotal evidence is not enough when it isn’t supported by mechanical facts. In its pursuit of a “balanced” game, WotC made the decision to utilize the Archetype system in achieving that balance, in addition to placing more value on the number of class levels and quality and/or amount of equipment a character has than the character’s base stats. Barring ridiculous PrC and non-Core Class optimized builds, no matter the build superior stats in 3.X will only have a significant impact in all fields at lower levels. By level 5, any stat advantage over another Archetype’s innate abilities “Mr. Perfect” might have will be slipping from “considerable” to merely “noticeable”, by level 10, that advantage drops from “noticeable” to merely “minor”, and by level 15, that advantage will be all but negligible. Second, your position only works if gameplay is based solely on the mechanical abilities of the characters in question, irrespective of the ability of the players controlling them. Unfortunately (or fortunately), that’s not the case. There will [I]always be players that are “better” than the other players in the group; players who take charge, who actively initiate & pursue character goals, who know the system inside and out, who consistently roll dice with above average results, or who have a better head for tactics, just as there will always be players that just sit back and “enjoy the ride”, content to follow whatever’s going on, whether GM or player initiated, players that consistently roll poorly, who only know the rules “just enough to play”, who only like the roleplaying, who only like the combat, and so on. The “Alpha” players will rise to the front of a game and take “center stage” no matter what the mechanics are, simply because the “Beta” players are either unwilling or unable to match their enthusiasm and/or skill at playing. Now don’t get me wrong, it’s entirely possible to end up with a group consisting solely of “Beta” players where it’s really hard to tell who’s in front, if anyone, and I personally would commit various and sundry acts of extreme unpleasantness to get myself a group consisting of all “Alpha” players where no one is “out in front” because they’re all pushing the envelope equally. But on average, there tends to be one or two players in any group that are usually more “involved” in the game than the others, and thus end up at “center stage”. In short, give “Mr. Perfect” to the guy that just goes along with everything, or the guy that only “comes alive” when there’s combat, and give “Mr. Average” to the guy that’s constantly pursuing his character’s agenda and getting involved in every aspect of the game, and I guarantee you it will be “Mr. Average” that “steals the spotlight” from the other players (if they let him), not “Mr. Perfect”. Lastly, just because it happened to you (even multiple times) doesn’t make it the Rule, just the experience you had with the situation. How do I know? Simple, because in my experience—20 years in RPGs where 85% of the time I was the GM, through diverse player types ranging from blatant jacka**es, to guys that would have fun no matter what they were doing, as long as it was entertaining, to guys that would run anything from a God to a diseased beggar living off scraps in back alleys—having a mechanical advantage in the game, even a significant mechanical advantage, only causes difficulties if A) The GM lacks the skill or the inclination to handle the increased workload that causes, or B) The player with the advantage willfully sets out to lord that advantage over the other players at any or all opportunities. I’ve run games in a dozen different systems where one player was much better than others mechanically, whether by a chance combination of stats and/or the acquisition of equipment, or by direct choice, such as the case of the White Wolf systems I’ve run where some games ended up with only one or two players being a “good” Splat while the rest were merely Ghouls, Kinfolk or normal Mortals, or a Mage was working with Garou or Kindred. Simply put, all a mechanical advantage does is create more work for a GM; it only “dooms” a game if the GM isn’t up to the challenge, or one or more players are jerks about it.
Loki_God'o'Chaos 01-18-06, 09:23 PM	So, Im not going to sit down with that DM, this is my reason. My average character rolls are 18, 17, 18, 16, 16, 18, oft times in that order. Hence why as a DM I dont try to make armies, because if I try to roll those twice in a row Ill wind up with 9, 18, 10, 13, 11, 15, and in my oppinion those just suck. Yes, I am a true Dice Ninja, but in the good way. I only average 7 N20s a session and maybe 1 N1 per Campaign. Im not sure how average that is, I just know I normally have amazing luck, at least once a day (hahaha), well, Im done now
kraegor 01-19-06, 01:37 PM	Ok, for all of you that are arguing out there: Dice rolls for stats just really do not matter. Sure, at level 1, my god, a character with all 18's is godly. But how long are you level 1 for? 1 day? 2? Fast forward to level 5, or level 6, sure, he is slightly overpowered, but not so much as first level. Fast forward to level 10, or 11. Wow, the one with all 18's is actually getting hammered quite a bit. he has more staying power and damage output than some of the others, but these CR 12 monsters are actually doing a toll on him. See where I am going? Its just like having a character start play as a drow, or as a goliath or any other race/class combo. They might be powerful at first level, but as the time goes on they equal out with the rest. And for whoever said that the ones with the highest stats always end up leading a party, or gaining a GM's attention, this is false. Its the person in your D&D session that has the most REAL LIFE charisma. I am always the most outspoken, the most sociable person in our group, and as much? The GM focuses on me because of who I am, not who my character is. Remember, you can be a no name rogue, but you start using your wits and your skills and you will soon be the star of the show.
Nom 01-19-06, 04:32 PM	Dice rolls for stats just really do not matter. Sure, at level 1, my god, a character with all 18's is godly. But how long are you level 1 for? 1 day? 2? Fast forward to level 5, or level 6, sure, he is slightly overpowered, but not so much as first level. Fast forward to level 10, or 11.I'm going to take issue with this. In a game where everything scales, maintaining even a +1 advantage can be a big help. Bonuses from ability scores stack with all other bonuses. I think the logic that drives the OP's post is that magic / skill ranks / BAB can allow a specialist character with a low score to easily outperform a non-specialist with a high score. This is true from about level 5. However, when you compare like with like (specialist vs specialist or non-specialist vs non-specialist) then starting with a "free" fully-stackable +3 bonus makes a big difference (and is worth roughly 72,000 gp per score +6^2 * 1000 * 2 (slotless)).
Aliquid 01-19-06, 05:22 PM	Becoming a wallflower and resenting the person that isn't IS jealousy. QED.You seem to be consistently jumping to a false conclusion. I didn't notice Rhomphaia making any comments about resentment. Personally, I would let someone keep straight 18s, but that's just me. Even so, Rhomphaia's point still stands. The game could become boring for the other players, and it has nothing to do with jealousy. Jealous from the Merrian-Webster dictionary:2 : hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage You are jumping to the conclusion that the other players would feel negative emotions towards the full 18s character, and that isn't the case. It is perfectly possible to find the game boring, and not resent the other player. Sorry, but no. Anecdotal evidence is not enough when it isn’t supported by mechanical facts.Mechanical facts don't mean squat when you are talking about how people will react to a game. You can not measure if a game "sucks" or not with mechanical facts, you can not measure "fun" with mechanical facts. If you want to measure this concept and be able to defend it... the only thing you could do is run a whole bunch of games that deal with this issue, and then survey the players to see if they had fun or not. With enough surveys, you will have a statistically defendable argument of the "fun" level.
20goingon1232 01-19-06, 05:40 PM	You seem to be consistently jumping to a false conclusion. I didn't notice Rhomphaia making any comments about resentment. Personally, I would let someone keep straight 18s, but that's just me. Even so, Rhomphaia's point still stands. The game could become boring for the other players, and it has nothing to do with jealousy. Jealous from the Merrian-Webster dictionary: You are jumping to the conclusion that the other players would feel negative emotions towards the full 18s character, and that isn't the case. It is perfectly possible to find the game boring, and not resent the other player. Explain WHY they feel the resentment, then.
Aliquid 01-19-06, 05:59 PM	Explain WHY they feel the resentment, then.They don't that's the point! They are bored, they aren't having fun. There is no resentment.
20goingon1232 01-19-06, 09:36 PM	They don't that's the point! They are bored, they aren't having fun. There is no resentment. Uh-huh. Reeeeeeeally? You do, of course, realise that min/maxer builds (except Pun-Pun) tend to have glaring weaknesses that they rely on other party members to shore up right? So, if the other guys are not getting their schtick, whose fault is it? The optimiser or the DM? Oh yeah, by the way, the sky is green.
Kalman14 01-19-06, 10:39 PM	Some thing very close to this happened to me once. I rolled 4 18's and 2 16's and everyone except the DM complained that my character was unbalanced. I admit 4 18's on a Paladin is a little too good but i rolled right in front of them. They kept complaining for about 10 miinutes until the DM docked them all 2 HP(at the beginning of a new game) and after that the game continued as normal despite a lack of healing from the cleric that my friend was using.
20goingon1232 01-19-06, 10:49 PM	Some thing very close to this happened to me once. I rolled 4 18's and 2 16's and everyone except the DM complained that my character was unbalanced. I admit 4 18's on a Paladin is a little too good but i rolled right in front of them. They kept complaining for about 10 miinutes until the DM docked them all 2 HP(at the beginning of a new game) and after that the game continued as normal despite a lack of healing from the cleric that my friend was using. They should be so lucky. I start taking away STATS, not temporary hps. Also, that cleric better have a good reason to not heal the paladin, or fur will fly.
Loren Pechtel 01-19-06, 11:25 PM	If one member of your group somehow, improbably and legitimately rolled six 18's during character creation (for those who roll that is, please no discussion of point buy) and your DM asked that player to re-roll his character (for sake of balance) how would you react? Note: this is a hypothetical, not a real situation. It came up in the Rules Counselling forum in the Stats/CR thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=569175). A few other DM's said they would have the player re-roll... I said it was a good way to have your entire table mutiny. I would assume cheating. Even if it's observed all that means is a skilled dice cheat or loaded dice. With 4d6 drop the lowest the odds are something like 1 in 50 for a 18. For 6 of them that's something like 15 billion to 1.
Aliquid 01-20-06, 12:41 AM	Uh-huh. Reeeeeeeally? You do, of course, realise that min/maxer builds (except Pun-Pun) tend to have glaring weaknesses that they rely on other party members to shore up right? So, if the other guys are not getting their schtick, whose fault is it? The optimiser or the DM? Oh yeah, by the way, the sky is green.Hmmmm..... ok then. I'm not going to bother trying to explain my point, as you clearly you have a different concept of reality than I do.
Callista 01-20-06, 12:53 AM	With 4d6 drop the lowest the odds are something like 1 in 50 for a 18. For 6 of them that's something like 15 billion to 1. If it's 1 in 50 for 1 18, then it's only about 1 in 15 thousand (not billion) for six of them. (5^6). So it could happen. If that happened to me, I'd ask the DM if I could keep one of the 18s and re-roll the rest. :) I wouldn't want a stupidly overpowered character, but an 18 is always nice to have. As a DM, I use elite array.
kraegor 01-20-06, 01:27 AM	Some thing very close to this happened to me once. I rolled 4 18's and 2 16's and everyone except the DM complained that my character was unbalanced. I admit 4 18's on a Paladin is a little too good but i rolled right in front of them. They kept complaining for about 10 miinutes until the DM docked them all 2 HP(at the beginning of a new game) and after that the game continued as normal despite a lack of healing from the cleric that my friend was using. This is why I don't let anyone but the DM know my stats. They might be good, or might be bad, but the other players don't notice it. Let them find out my strength score when I try to pick up the boulder and hurl it, or fail miserably trying to budge it. Whatever the case may be, the other players need not know, they have enough to be concerned with THIER characters, not yours. If you tell everyone that you rolled bunches of 18's they will always think you cheated somehow, even if the DM witnessed the rolls. I once had a DM actually give me a character HE rolled up because he wanted me to play it because it fit my play style, i looked it over, and loved it, half celestial, with ungodly stats, because he knew I didn't abuse the rules, and wasn't a munchkin, he wanted someone with special abilities just in case the party got into real trouble. i never told them, they always assumed I was low intelligence and not very strong. (the DM would add in like my +8 damage, i would just tell him my roll for damage) so they never knew I was hitting the monster for 15 points of damage at first level while they where doing 4 or 5 points. Things just went down faster, and they where happy.
danzig138 01-20-06, 01:54 AM	I'd ask the DM WTF is up with that? And tell him that's not cool.
Vaelan 01-20-06, 02:00 AM	I would have no problem as a DM or as a player with someone having 6 18s if they were legitimately generated by the method the group chose to use. On principle, it would be quite stupid to intentionally use a random method of determining statistics (I could stop here...;)) and then reject some results because they're too random. I think a lot of you are just seeing all 18s and assuming it is ridiculously powerful without bothering to think about it. What character needs 6 18s? Monks and Paladins come the closest, but even for them a few ability scores have no bearing on their actual role in the party. Further, the entire idea of a character overshadowing another is utterly ridiculous. Even in the unlikely event of two characters attempting to fulfill the exact same role (this is a team-based game where players fulfill different roles, remember?), the fact that a few of the 18s will go to waste and the linear nature of stat bonuses makes this less relevant. The difference between a 14 and an 18 isn't huge when you consider that you're adding the bonus to a d20. The real difference between the character with all 18s and your average character certainly exists, but it is nowhere near as serious as some people think it is.
danzig138 01-20-06, 02:02 AM	If you balance it out, start the character out a level behind the group or with some kind of heafty penalty, then I don't think a re-roll is "necessary". but as a player I wouldn't WANT to play the all 18s. it sucks the fun out of the game.I don't see why you'd want to apply any such level behind penalties or anything. And why does it have to suck the fun out of the game? Sure, you might not be working with the statistical weaknesses of the rest of the party, but the roleplaying opportunities would be good. I mean, damn, you're nearly perfect. Imagine the pressure the character would come under to help with this, or do that. Seems to me like a great RP chance.
Minos_Vol 01-20-06, 05:12 AM	I'd be okay with it, we had a simaler problem when my friend's little brother rolled ridiculously high on a character and left us in the dust, so our DM gave us a randomly determined amount of character points (of which we could put no more than to of into any stat) to even us out. it worked out great!
grelna 01-20-06, 05:26 AM	With 4d6 drop the lowest the odds are something like 1 in 50 for a 18. For 6 of them that's something like 15 billion to 1. If it's 1 in 50 for 1 18, then it's only about 1 in 15 thousand (not billion) for six of them. (5^6). So it could happen. Well, as a GM, I'm not going to worry about it happening to me. The chance is more than remote. Loren is right, BTW. It's actually closer to 1 in 16 billion, I think. (1/50) to the 6th power. But let's say it did happen and I witnessed the rolls and the dice were good (and I've SEEN loaded dice brought to a game, so spare me the outrage for checking, folks). Okay, so now I actually have to deal with this staggeringly unlikely occurrence (one more aside: is everybody that testified to the wonderful rolls they've had in the past absolutely sure that their dice really roll true? Lots of dice don't, without any tampering or cheating intent whatsoever). Please, people - character generation dice rolls are not sacred. If most of my players roll great stats and one person rolls only barely so-so, which I've seen happen a lot, I usually let the player with the comparatively low scores reroll, even if their character is legal by RAW. I've never done the reverse and don't anticipate having to ever do so, but a situation like this has never arisen, either. Given the improbability of the occurrence, the other players would be superhuman not to suspect that some sort of hokey-pokey had taken place, even if it hadn't. What GM needs that kind of corrosive feeling around the table? Even more important, and what I would emphasize to the lucky dice roller, anything I put out there that can challenge that character will wipe the floor with everyone else. And if I tailor the challenges to the others, either the godling will have to step back and let them handle the situations, essentially making the great stats totally irrelevant, or the other characters will end up just holding Superman's cape for him. Yes, of course I can put the party in situations where everybody has something to contribute, but my job just became a lot harder, and it won't always work. There are only two ways I could see not asking the player to take lower scores in at least 3 stats (maybe in exchange for a free feat): 1) The player who rolled it up was one of the natural Beta players mentioned in one of the posts above. Someone like that won't get as much benefit from the stats and so the imbalance won't be as pronounced. (I'd actually go so far as to say that about half of the small group of consistently hot dice rollers I've ever known were fortunate in having that talent, as their abysmal role-playing skills would have gotten them killed even more quickly otherwise). 2) If everyone else either had considerably better than average stats or I was absolutely sure they could handle it, then in that case the godling is, in fact, a godling. Not a mere mortal, but a scion of the gods (without divine powers, of course), with all the problems that sort of thing can entail. Someone like that will get the party dragged into all sorts of situations, but will take the brunt of the danger. Everyone else will get props from the powers that be just for being able to keep up with a demigod (literally) without having his or her divine heritage. They might end up as saints or something like that eventually. However, this would only work with some groups and would obviously be a change in direction for almost any campaign. But c'mon, is it really worth expending emotional energy getting mad about a disagreement on what you'd do in a never-happen situation?
Flushpuppie 01-20-06, 08:03 AM	I've seen people roll two 18's and two 16's compared to not one roll above 12 in the same game. I would roll again and keep the memory
JD 01-20-06, 08:34 AM	I think character-building is as much about the low stats as it is the high ones, and as a player, I'd balk at playing an all-18s character. One of the things that makes my gnomish bard fun to play is that I have to be careful about going toe-to-toe with enemies. Playing out the less-than-stellar int but above-average wis of my old human barbarian was a joy: "Five of them. I'll rush in and get the drop on them with Jesuis. You lot hold the door and keep them back with arrow fire." "Er, OB? There's seven of them." "Even better." However, as a DM I'd probably respect the player's right to keep his lucky rolls.
danielinthewolvesden 01-20-06, 11:40 AM	Of course I'd let him/her play that PC. Unthinkable otherwise. Now, I'd ask the player "OK, then- what do you think we should do to balance your new super-lucky super-PC?" Suggestions like play a weak race or a cruddy class (Healer, CW Samurai), less starting gold, and such like would be duly considered. A kolbold Samurai would be FUN with straight 18's (less racial adjustments), I'd love to see that played- or even play it. :cool:
striderII 01-20-06, 01:26 PM	I may or may not let the player keep the rolls. If I know the player, and if I'm aware that they are a team player that will not overshine the other PC's, then I'll let him keep the rolls. If I don't know the player at all, then I'd ask for a re-roll. If he then stormed out, throwing things, threatening to hit me, etc, then I'd know that he was an immature moron that I wouldn't want at my table anyway. There is absolutely no call for acting in that manner over a freaking game. I highly suspect that many of you acting here with your false bravado of "I'd ram my dice down his throat" or whatever either wouldn't actually do it, or you're psychotic. It's a DM's responsibility to ensure that the *entire group* has fun - not one standout character. The OP's question was "what would you do as a DM?" not "what would you do as another player?" - therefore, jealousy doesn't enter into it at all. What in the world does a DM have to be jealous of a player for? strider
geekling 01-20-06, 02:28 PM	The OP's question was "what would you do as a DM?" not "what would you do as another player?" Errrr... read that question again. Subject: From a DM to Players everywhere... your DM asked that player to re-roll his character (for sake of balance) how would you react?
striderII 01-20-06, 03:30 PM	Errrr... read that question again. Touche. I suppose I got mixed up somewhere in the reading of all the pointing fingers and false bravado. Nevertheless, the rest of my original post stands. strider
Loren Pechtel 01-21-06, 12:56 AM	If it's 1 in 50 for 1 18, then it's only about 1 in 15 thousand (not billion) for six of them. (5^6). So it could happen. If that happened to me, I'd ask the DM if I could keep one of the 18s and re-roll the rest. :) I wouldn't want a stupidly overpowered character, but an 18 is always nice to have. As a DM, I use elite array. Not 5^6, 50^6. That deserves an excalmation point but mixing !'s into math isn't a good idea.
Loren Pechtel 01-21-06, 01:03 AM	Well, as a GM, I'm not going to worry about it happening to me. The chance is more than remote. Loren is right, BTW. It's actually closer to 1 in 16 billion, I think. (1/50) to the 6th power. But let's say it did happen and I witnessed the rolls and the dice were good (and I've SEEN loaded dice brought to a game, so spare me the outrage for checking, folks). Okay, so now I actually have to deal with this staggeringly unlikely occurrence (one more aside: is everybody that testified to the wonderful rolls they've had in the past absolutely sure that their dice really roll true? Lots of dice don't, without any tampering or cheating intent whatsoever). I wouldn't quibble about 15 or 16 billion--the 1 in 50 is already rounded off heavily. Ok, I'll work the number out...100 billion to 1. As for rolling--note how the casinos make you do it: The dice must bounce off the wall of the craps table. There's a good reason for that--a skilled roller can do a pretty good job of getting what they want if the dice don't bounce.
Archangel62 01-21-06, 02:23 AM	It's happened in my games, I say congratulations and let them keep the stats. I don't care too much that it happens because I can usually balance it in my games. I also tend to allow players with poorer stats to reroll if they can't get a mod total above 6 (Yes this has happened before)
Lord Howland Reed 01-21-06, 06:02 AM	Ivee been in a room full of witnesses that saw our buddy Rick roll 3x18, 3x16. We kept rolling the dice to check for wear or lack of randomness from weight or anything of the sort. The dice checked out fine.
mearrin69 01-21-06, 11:37 AM	Didn't read the *whole* thread but I thought I'd add my vote for the reroll. A character with all 18s is going to be out of balance with everything else in the game - which will, on average, be average :) Same goes with someone who rolls all 3s. Funny thing is, if a DM made a player reroll all 3s then noone would even flinch - in fact, they'd probably curse him for making the player play someone that weak and incompetent. Let a player roll all 18s though...and the tune changes considerably. :rolleyes: This is why point buy is a good thing :) That said, I like the PHB 4d6 discard lowest method and go with what you get (yeah, the first time :D )
MoogleEmpMog 01-21-06, 12:28 PM	As a DM, I always use point buy; I used point buy back in 2e when it wasn't even beneficial to do so. However, if I were playing, forced to roll rather than use an appropriate point buy, rolled six 18s, and then the DM who'd insisted I roll in the first place had the unmitigated audacity, the cyclopean GALL, to ask me to reroll? He'd best hope he wasn't playing at my house, on account of one or the other of us rapidly departing whatever building we presently occupied.
striderII 01-21-06, 01:17 PM	As a DM, I always use point buy; I used point buy back in 2e when it wasn't even beneficial to do so. However, if I were playing, forced to roll rather than use an appropriate point buy, rolled six 18s, and then the DM who'd insisted I roll in the first place had the unmitigated audacity, the cyclopean GALL, to ask me to reroll? He'd best hope he wasn't playing at my house, on account of one or the other of us rapidly departing whatever building we presently occupied. Yeah, wow...gods forbid the DM grow a set and have the "unmitigated audacity" to not accept your character. Is a game really worth getting that upset over? Really? That set of *imaginary numbers*? Jeez.... strider
Horseshoe_Hermit 01-21-06, 01:50 PM	MY DM tries to tell me that ability scores don't really turn out to matter for the game... And I don't believe it. I say any game that forces me to keep a roll of 5 10s and a 14 because it's "above average" had better darn well let me have the other extreme. Besides, the DM now has the opportunity to have the 'shunned perfect guy,' or maybe the 'I'm so awesome I can't decide what to do" personality. Maybe both. I would have to agree with the reasoning that my DM can't let me take certain actions that are inconsistent with me having been perfect my entire life.
Loren Pechtel 01-21-06, 03:33 PM	Ivee been in a room full of witnesses that saw our buddy Rick roll 3x18, 3x16. We kept rolling the dice to check for wear or lack of randomness from weight or anything of the sort. The dice checked out fine. Says nothing about the skill of the die roller. I've walked out of a Risk game once. The matches were very high and we were flush with cards. I knew the battle odds--in large battles it's 117:100, I've forgotten the standard deviation but it's low. There were enough armies about that any appreciable deviation from this was all but impossible. Anyway, I had no problem rampaging through most of the players. It was down to two of us, I either won on that round or died when he got his turn and played his match (he had 5 cards). I had force superiority and with the odds victory should have been certain. He insisted on playing out, though--and I found myself not even doing 1:1. I started observing his rolls--the relationship between his and mine didn't look random--he was all too often rolling just high enough to win the battle. I started rolling my dice where everyone else could see them but he couldn't. He found that unacceptable--it would preclude his cheating. At that point I announced that while the game was obviously won there was no way to win against his cheating and I left.
wonlee76 01-22-06, 01:45 AM	I say any game that forces me to keep a roll of 5 10s and a 14 because it's "above average" had better darn well let me have the other extreme. Besides, the DM now has the opportunity to have the 'shunned perfect guy,' or maybe the 'I'm so awesome I can't decide what to do" personality. Maybe both. I would have to agree with the reasoning that my DM can't let me take certain actions that are inconsistent with me having been perfect my entire life. Well, what if its a DM that says you re-roll those 5 10s and that 14. Would it be more acceptable for a DM that lets you re-roll 10/10/10/10/10/14 to also request a re-roll of all 18s? And no offense, a DM should NEVER dictate what a PC should do. Especially when it comes to the personality of the PC. If I chose to play the "shunned perfect guy" or the indecisive personality, I wouldn't mind the DM reminding me of this at certain intervals but the DM should not be assigning personality traits to my PC. I'm one of the fellows who voted for a re-roll and cited stat envy as one of the reasons for asking for a re-roll. Personally, I use point buy as a DM. I've played in a campaign where 1 PC had near perfect stats (3 18s, 16, 15, 14: Total bonuses of +19). My stats in comparison (17, 16, 14, 14, 13, 10: Total bonuses of +11) were great and I was quite happy to play it but I couldn't help shake the feeling of being woefully inadequate compared to the guy with higher stats. That feeling stuck around for 12 levels worth of play until I "came into" my own and didn't feel as inadequate compared to the guy with substantially higher stat totals but I can say the early levels were basically Mr. Perfect protecting the group from danger. I know the player with the high stats was having a blast playing but the disparity between stats gave this player a head start over the rest of the group that we could not immediately overcome. My own personal feelings would be playing with a PC who had perfect stats is very similar feeling playing with a "god-like" DMPC. I don't like DMPCs that are substantially "better" then the group the DMPC is traveling with us that seems to know everything. I know as a player rolling super great stats I might feel cheated by a DM who asks me to re-roll or voluntarily lower my stats but looking at the bigger picture, its a game. Its a game for a group of people, not just myself and if it makes my DM's life easier to put in more balanced challenges instead of catering challenges for my perfect PC, then I'll make my DM's job easier and voluntarily lower my stats to be more in line with the group. As a player, I wouldn't mind lowering my all 18s and as a DM I would ask a player who rolled all 18s to re-roll unless it was a solo campaign in which case, you'll need all the help you can get.
20goingon1232 01-22-06, 04:11 AM	I think character-building is as much about the low stats as it is the high ones, and as a player, I'd balk at playing an all-18s character. One of the things that makes my gnomish bard fun to play is that I have to be careful about going toe-to-toe with enemies. Playing out the less-than-stellar int but above-average wis of my old human barbarian was a joy: "Five of them. I'll rush in and get the drop on them with Jesuis. You lot hold the door and keep them back with arrow fire." "Er, OB? There's seven of them." "Even better." However, as a DM I'd probably respect the player's right to keep his lucky rolls. Incorrect. Judging from your post, character building (or rather, YOUR version of it) is about LOW stats. Not that you are alone, mind you, but let us be honest here. Next time, just play the straight 8 with one 18 character and stop the posturing. That should give you a wealth of "flaws" to work with.
Stev Beren 01-22-06, 08:34 AM	Rolling straight 3d6, the chances are closer to 1 in 216 of getting ONE eighteen. (1/6)^3 For six straight eighteens it woudl be .. (1/216)^6 = 1 in 101,559,956,668,416. With only 3d6 there is only ONE way to roll an eighteen and only ONE way to roll six of them. Frankly, I go with the reroll folks on this. ALthough I personally use a combination of point buy and rolling - which allows for some variability, but not TOO much.
Aliquid 01-22-06, 12:57 PM	With only 3d6 there is only ONE way to roll an eighteen and only ONE way to roll six of them.With the standard 4d6 drop the lowest rule: There are 1,296 possible combinations for 4d6 (6^4) 21 of those combinations result in an 18 Therefore there is a 21/1,296 chance of rolling an 18, or 1 in 61.7 Doing that 6 times in a row would be one in 55,247,704,840.5
mearrin69 01-22-06, 02:07 PM	I will happily let the person who rolls that pick up my lotto tickets for me. M
Chaos_Infidel 01-22-06, 11:05 PM	Rolling 6 18's is the most improbable thing to happen in the D&D world besides killing 2 tarasques. If someone says they did it, they are most likely lying. The most 18's I've rolled is 3 with the 4d6 drop the lowest and re-roll 1's system. It simply doesnt happen
Vaelan 01-22-06, 11:23 PM	It simply doesnt happen Seeing as how it says in the original post that we're assuming it happened legitimately, you really aren't contributing anything meaningful to the thread. I would lose a lot of respect for any DM that asked a player to reroll. It shows a lack of adaptability and poor reasoning.
Gopher 01-23-06, 01:26 AM	I'm afraid I would be inclined to give the player powerful stats...but probably not all 18s. I can see where everyone is coming from saying that this is once in a lifetime, but as a DM I wouldn't want to see my campaign become imbalanced before it even started. Anyways, if I rolled those I wouldn't even want to play that character. A character who has no weaknesses, blah. Anyways, fear of situations like these is why I never have players roll for stats. Too much inherent imbalance if you ask me.
loaba 01-23-06, 01:31 AM	If they were rolled legitimately, then yeah, you should prolly let the guy keep his scores. Not like it's ever gonna happen though. :D
UltimateReality 01-23-06, 02:12 PM	As a player? I'd have that guy roll out my stats for me...and the rest of my rolls. I'm not really sure what our group would do. I suspect it would involve alcoholic celebration and a long discussion by the party and the DM about how to proceed. (I must say I liked the idea of swapping some of the rolls to other party members for theirs.)
BoringInfoGuy 01-23-06, 02:33 PM	As a DM, it's a matter of principle. Once you set your method of determining atributes, then you stick with it. Be it rolling or point buy. And by CRAW, any character who's total bonus (before racial modifiers) is = to +1 or better is a viable character. As a player, even if I'm playing with the lowest scores in the group, I can create an interesting character. Each player brings something different to the table. Normally, you want to have the group picking different classes. So the group rogue is a super thief? No prob. Even if he seems that he can out fight my fighter at 1st level, by the time we both hit 5th, even my low stated fighter will have a better BAB, armor more feats, etc. Even if I end up with the same class as the super stat, that doesn't make my character useless. As I stated earlier, I've played a rogue in a group with a +3 bonus, in a group that rolled around a +10 to +15 bonus. One of the highest rollers was also playing a rogue. Was my character useless? Nope. While Super Rogue picked all the normal skills for a dungeon crawling rogue (pick locks, detect traps, move silently), my rogue was able to go with a completely different skill set. Disguise, bluff, forgery, sense motive, all the skills to make a Con man type rogue. We didn't have a single skill in common. He was a blast to play. 3.5 makes high states less important at higher levels. And even with the same class, different feats and skills can make any character different enough to be interesting to play, regardless of what other players rolled and picked. Now, a slightly different question for the group. If you were the one to roll all 18's, what class / race / concept would you play?
20goingon1232 01-23-06, 03:42 PM	I wish some of the nay-sayers would look themselves in the mirror for once. "It is too powerful." "It will unbalance the game." "There is no weakness." Translation: "I am suffering from *****-envy."
20goingon1232 01-23-06, 04:09 PM	If you were the one to roll all 18's, what class / race / concept would you play? Just to annoy the L33Ters, Phrenic Lesser Aasimar Warmage x/Cleric 1/Rainbow Servant 10 (fullcaster/all spells by RAW version, not the "oh-my-God-it-is-so-broken-so-let's-gimp-it-regardless-of-RAW" version) with LA buyback. He will be from a nation that has some form of national service or where the military is highly regarded (the exact nation will, of course, change from setting to setting) and has an established mage/warmage college. His magical ability would be discovered early into his national service stint and he was sent to the warmage college instead. After his NS stint, he explores the world, drawn by promises of knowledge, and eventually joins the "secret" organisation of the Coautls to further the cause of good everywhere. Now, he is the prime troubleshooter for the organisation, going wherever he is needed. Starting stats: Str 18 Dex 18 Con 18 Int 20 Wis 22 Cha 24 All stats boosts into Cha. Domains: War (Longbow), Planning Aasimar traits (but is actually type humanoid, but also considered native outsider for all effects that hit outsiders) Skill set: Spellcraft, Knowledge (as many as he can get as class skills and some cross-class), Concentration, Tumble, Spot, Listen, Survival Feats: Extend Spell (b), Martial Weapon Profficiency (Longbow) (b), Weapon Focus (Longbow) (b), Spellcasting Prodigy, Persistent Spell, DM: Persistent, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.
Balor von Balorvitch 01-23-06, 04:09 PM	Ok if a player rolls all 18s, and enjoys playing D&D taking away that would cause hardships for him. Taking away such a 'real' amazing event for 'fictional' balance is simply unfair. As for stat envy.... why? It is random you have no reason to complain. I would gladly play the side kick for Mr. 1 in 1,000,000,000! Thats not likely to happen again. And even if he will be better than my character forever he will gradually come down to earth (an extra +4 on everything does not have the sting when you get into the 20s) Compared to the builds with PrC why is all 18s even an issue? Put Mr 18 aganist a Master of many Forms/ Warshaper in war Troll body and the 18 guy will be taken to school. As for the odds i think it is alot moe likely to get all 16s and that is 1000x more likely and about 90% as good. And a Dm prob would not veto an all 16 er and if he did then i would question his judgement!
trapspringer 01-23-06, 04:12 PM	I think that is a little harsh. I think there is more to it than ***** envy. I would have to gauge the situation as... No, you know what, none of my players would have a problem with this. Honestly, not a single one would complain. I would hear stuff like "lucky bastard" and "well, I guess you won't be needing your share of the treasure...." but really I think you would have to be pretty immature to be bothered by something as inconsequential to game balance as +4. A fighter will still fight, a rogue will still steal, and the cleric will still heal. It changes basically nothing, and even the players in my group who have been playing for only a month or so know that. Of course, if you have two players playing the same archetype, I can see this being a problem, but then if that is the case this isn't the biggest problem you have anyway.
JD 01-23-06, 07:11 PM	Incorrect. Judging from your post, character building (or rather, YOUR version of it) is about LOW stats. Not that you are alone, mind you, but let us be honest here. Next time, just play the straight 8 with one 18 character and stop the posturing. That should give you a wealth of "flaws" to work with. Whoah whoah whoah there, chief. I like my characters' strengths, but I also like balance. Before I've picked up a single d6 for character creation, I know where I'm going to put my high rolls and where I'm going to put my low ones. I have ideas about good things to do with the high ones and ways to compensate for the low ones. I wouldn't like to play a perfect character any more than I'd like to play one with only a single useful stat.
Enialis Galadonels 01-24-06, 05:04 AM	To original question. I would be surprised for such demand, but I would reroll... However, in the light of this question, I do expect that no such question would be asked, and I as a DM would never ask such demand. As to reroll, because he got lucky?! wtf?! - Do DM's ask to reroll, if player got lucky with 4 natural 20's in row, i.e., got two critical hits and finished BBEG too soon?! Do you ask him to reroll? I don't :)
20goingon1232 01-24-06, 05:13 PM	Whoah whoah whoah there, chief. I like my characters' strengths, but I also like balance. Before I've picked up a single d6 for character creation, I know where I'm going to put my high rolls and where I'm going to put my low ones. I have ideas about good things to do with the high ones and ways to compensate for the low ones. I wouldn't like to play a perfect character any more than I'd like to play one with only a single useful stat. Balance? What balance? Balance to what? Where is your baseline? Are you 200% of 0.01 or 1% of 2?
JD 01-24-06, 10:11 PM	Balance as in a mixture of stats from high to not so high. If you think about it, the answer's really in the preceding 148 posts. (Pro-tip: they are talking about high and not so high stats.) Obviously I don't aim for a character with a total of +0 on modifiers - that's a great recipe for becoming a one-line obituary in the Adventuring Times - but an overpowered character, whether through design or chance, is a pain for the DM and runs the risk of making the player seem like a pompous ass. Of course, this likely boils down to a difference in play style between us. While I'll readily acknowledge that numbers that are higher than other numbers are pretty neat, I'm much more of a "chewy" player. That may go some way to explaining my point of view? There. I think I've explained myself and my angle on this issue as fully as anyone could expect. If you have any further questions please read my post again and I will explain things again.
Yoho1.5 01-30-06, 02:15 PM	Now Mr Perfect may be game unbalancing, but why not try it out first to see if it becomes a problem and only fix it after it becomes a problem. After all Mr perfect may die in the first round of the first encounter to a triple 20, or the guy playing Mr Perfect may be a player who isn't the best player and can't outshine his more rule savy peers, or Mr Perfect may be a great roleplayer who takes his good luck with grace and doesn't steal the spotlight from the rest of the party, or the rest of the player might be good enough roleplayers to make good characters out of supporting roles for Mr Perfect. So while it could lead to problems, problems are not guarenteed! As a player I'd size up Mr Perfect as a player and try to build a character that is good at what the player of Mr Perfect isn't, as a DM (I usually DM) I would congradgulate the player and let him have his due, but I would voice my concerns that this could be an issue down the road if he/she doesn't play nice; the "With great Power Comes Great Responsiblity" speech. After all, as a let the dice fall as they may DM, my luck with the dice might cancel Mr Perfects luck really quick. :cool:
20goingon1232 02-01-06, 04:05 AM	Balance as in a mixture of stats from high to not so high. If you think about it, the answer's really in the preceding 148 posts. (Pro-tip: they are talking about high and not so high stats.) Obviously I don't aim for a character with a total of +0 on modifiers - that's a great recipe for becoming a one-line obituary in the Adventuring Times - but an overpowered character, whether through design or chance, is a pain for the DM and runs the risk of making the player seem like a pompous ass. Of course, this likely boils down to a difference in play style between us. While I'll readily acknowledge that numbers that are higher than other numbers are pretty neat, I'm much more of a "chewy" player. That may go some way to explaining my point of view? There. I think I've explained myself and my angle on this issue as fully as anyone could expect. If you have any further questions please read my post again and I will explain things again. If you mean by "chewy" is that you are a L33Ter who cannot see beyond the numbers (oh, yes, it DOES go both ways, you know; claiming numbers are too high is as number crunching as claiming they are too low), then yes, it does explain a lot. High stats do not make a player into a "pompous ass". The player's attitude does. Unless you mean by "pompous ass" as "everyone else is jealous of him and thus tar him unjustly". There is NOTHING wrong with high stats. As DM, I am telling you this. As player, I am telling you this.
Mock26 02-01-06, 04:54 AM	As a DM I would let him keep the scores. Why punish him because Tymora smiled upon him when he was rolling? Should the DM demand he reroll hit points if he keeps rolling the maximum amount? If a player rolled all 6's on a 6d6 fireball should the DM ask him to reroll damage? No one should ever be punished for some lucky dice rolls. Never. One of the players in my campaign rolled the following stats: 18, 18, 17, 16, 16, 13. And this was done using 3d6!!!! After (2nd Edition) racial adjustments he has a dwarf with 18 Str., 16 Int., 16 Wis., 18 Dex., 18 Con., and 12 Cha. This is, without a doubt, the best set of initial dice rolls I have ever seen for character generation, and I was actually sitting next to him when he rolled them! And, what made these rolls truly horrible is that they were my dice! Afterwards, I used those dice exclusively for arrows and short swords and such and they sucked! They kept rolling an unusually high number of 1's and 2's. It got so bad that I retired the 3 dice, permanently! Now, if I was a player and a DM asked me to reroll my stats because they were too good you can be assured that I would be so ****** off there is a good chance I wouldn't play with that person again. As I stated above, why punish someone for a bit of luck, either a tiny bit or a lot of it? Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
ShadowDragon8685 02-01-06, 08:55 AM	This is why I like to use a high point-buy, like 32, or even 36. It prevents this kind of situation where the player's stats are too varied, and it lets players feel confidently superior, letting them be the best at their schtick, and round out a bit through sheer stats if nothing else. As opposed to the 25 point buy, which in my experiance generates nothing but straight powergaming, and even munchkinry, as the players try to squeeze every single bit of power out of their limited resources. That said, about the OP. If you want to roll, have it all rolled in front of witnesses. When the time comes that someone has rolled Very Well, you congratulate them. It is, after all, your fault. You insisted on using a random generation method that rarely or never leaves anyone happy. Now it's your turn to be unhappy, while the players get to be elated. Deal with it. High stats aren't that unbalancing. Not at all. It's not like you gave him two free levels of Fighter. You can garuntee he would have put his best stat into his primary schtick anyway, so you're already facing the worst you would've had to have faced there. This just means that the Fighter might have the inteligence to think, or maybe a Wisdom score that will make his Will save less sucktastic. It will not break the game. At the low levels, it's not going to matter overmuch because he has low HPs anyway. He may be harder to hit, or have four more HP per hit die, but it will not matter much. At higher levels, the worst you're looking at is 4x class levels in HP or skill points. It will not be that big of a deal. At most, it represents a level 2-4 "safety net", and it makes him secure enough in his character that he dosen't have to munch out.
jpyrich 02-01-06, 12:46 PM	If one member of your group somehow, improbably and legitimately rolled six 18's during character creation (for those who roll that is, please no discussion of point buy) and your DM asked that player to re-roll his character (for sake of balance) how would you react? I had something very similar happen to me in another game. It was a superhero game in which you rolled your attributes, number of powers and then the powers themselves. I rolled a character than was the most powerful thing we had ever seen. It was a thing of beauty. :D I was a lot of fun because I had only rolled my 2nd or 3rd ability score when I said "You're going to want to watch this." to the GM and everyone a the table was cheering every roll. After the excitement around the table died down, the GM and I both decided that the character was just too unbalancing to be played. I kept the character to be an NPC in my campaign. So, I would understand if a DM asked the player to reroll for that campaign. However, how unbalancing are all 18s in D&D? Yes, the character is going to be the most powerful person in the party. But not by so much that it would really matter. As a DM I would do one of the following: 1) Ask the player to set aside the numbers for the current campaingn and then create a campaign centered around that character. There must be a reason why that character is so uber. Is he a demi-god and just doesn't know it? Is he a living construct? I would then give the rest of the players a boost in some way (template, monster race, extra levels). Not much of one, but enough to bring them closer to the power level of the main character. He should still shine brightly (he was the lucky one), but the rest of the party shouldn't feel like level one Commoners. - or - 2) Allow the player to play the character after discussions on how the character will fit into the party and how this character will not just overshadow everyone else and spoil their fun. It is no fun at all if you feel that you are irrelevant. If these discussions with the player were going in a good direction, I would then include the rest of the players. I would offer the other players the option to rebuild their character or even create a new one with the old one getting a new campaign. I would also take a look at all of the attribute scores of the other players to make sure that the campaign will be balanced. --- I still use dice rolls to generate charactes even though that I know that a point-buy system is much more balanced. Many point-buy characters are cookie-cutter characters. However, I use the point-buy system as a check. I see how many points it would take to generate all of the characters in my campaign. If some of the players are seriously behind in power, I increase their scores a bit. Thinking about this makes me want to use a modified form of the character generation system that was in the original Uneathed Arcana. I'm going to post this idea in a different thread. JP
etfo161 02-01-06, 09:17 PM	i ever had a player roll six 18s then i would deffiniatly let him keep them and have my other players reroll stats atleast 5 other times, and then take the best set of scored, just to try and balance, i have seen my players roll all day long while i witnessed, and we made maybe hundreds of characters and there are 7 of us, well 8 with me, even i made characters. when we played, they picked what character they wanted, and they picked the average type character with stats roughly what i stated before. and no one was even close to six 18s, we barely got three 18s once, the other scores were like 6s or lower. the best we ever got was two 18s, two 14s, a 12 and a 10. and thats without dipping into the negatives at all. basically if somebody got six 18s i would let them keep em, if it would unbalance the party then i would let them set those scores aside and ask them to roll a new character for the current campaign, later on of course i would start a high power game and give the other players a bigger chance to get high scores like rolling 6d6 twice, 5d6 twice, 4d6 twice and 3d6 once, drop lowest score out of the 7 scores, along with rerolling 1s and dropping the lowest rolls, now that is some power rolling, and i actually used it once so i could run a game with higher challenges early on and keep the challenges high.
JD 02-02-06, 07:59 PM	If you mean by "chewy" is that you are a L33Ter who cannot see beyond the numbers (oh, yes, it DOES go both ways, you know; claiming numbers are too high is as number crunching as claiming they are too low), then yes, it does explain a lot. I'm glad you brought up this point, as it's actually one that I totally agree with. Creating a strong character concept and then ensuring that the numbers on your sheet gel nicely with that concept requires just as much stat-watching and careful progression as a 20-level build does. High stats do not make a player into a "pompous ass". The player's attitude does. Unless you mean by "pompous ass" as "everyone else is jealous of him and thus tar him unjustly". Goodness, I'm not sure exactly how I should reply to this, but I think my official response would have to be something along the lines of "duh". I mean do you actually read my posts or just look at every other word? Just for old times' sake, let's take a look at what I originally said: runs the risk of making the player seem like a pompous ass. Now, the fact that you skipped over these bolded words makes me want to refer to them as subtext, but they're right there in the text. Of course high stats don't automatically make the nicest player in the world a total jerk, but a big difference in power levels has the potential to create serious party friction, something that I'd prefer to avoid. There is NOTHING wrong with high stats. As DM, I am telling you this. As player, I am telling you this. And here's the rub: I never said there was. I said that I, personally, would not particularly like to play a character with straight-18 stats. I mean, to get a handle on how laugh-out-loud ludicrous I find this argument imagine for a moment that this topic is about, say, ice-cream and that I happened to mention that I'm not a big fan of strawberry ice-cream. A response of "there is NOTHING wrong with strawberry ice-cream" would be met with the raised eyebrows it deserves. (By the way, I actually adore strawberry ice-cream, so don't worry on that count.)
homey188 02-03-06, 04:54 PM	I havent read all the other responses( I only read to page 3) But if I were in this situation: as a dm: I wouldnt question the rolls, bad guys would think thier charatcer is more dangerous and he gets attacked more often as a player that has to re roll: give the dm a hard time, kill important npcs, be CE and pvp people. as a player that keeps the numbers: be very happy and use the 18s as a way to keep the other players in line, be a paladin for an excuse to act like this. But then again, I only play once a month and bend rules to help the players. I have actually rolled all 16s before, so id know how he felt to reroll if this happens