Full Attack Action VS. Full Round Action [Archive] - Wizards Community

Full Attack Action VS. Full Round Action [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Munz
10-06-04, 09:30 AM Ok, here's a topic a friend and I got into last night. Reading into the Player's Handbook, I found that both state you're allowed a 5-foot step after as part of your action when performing the Full Attack and the Full Round action. My question is this; if you can only get 1 Full Round Action in a round, how many attacks can you get in using a Full Attack Action in a round.

Let me pose the question in point my friend was bringing up:

He was saying if you had a low-level character with Two-weapon Fighting, Quickdraw, and Rapid Shot that you could get two attacks with your melee weapon (1 extra at your highest BAB bonus), take a 5-foot step back, draw a dagger and throw it using the Quickdraw and Rapid Shot (gaining one extra attack) feats.

He also was pointing out that as a Monk using a bow, if he had Rapid Shot he could fire two arrows and use his Flurry of Blows against an adjacent opponent; making 4 attacks in that round!

Now, for a low-level character that would normally only have 1 or 2 attacks for a Full Attack Action in a round, 3 or 4 attacks seem a little excessive!

My point I was bringing up was this:

To me, using Flurry of Blows or Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting is basically meaning you're doing your Full Attack Action to do just that. I don't think they should stack; regardless of what penalties you take to do all those actions in a round. My argument was this; if you only get one Full Round Action in a round, then you should only get one Full Attack Action in a round (and I consider any attack where you get 1 extra attack a Full Attack Action).

So tell me ladies and gentlemen; who's right, and if I'm wrong why is that? I just think the possibility of a low-level character getting 3 or 4 attacks in a round is ridiculous!

Thanks for the feedback
Enalung
10-06-04, 09:51 AM Either way he has found a weakness in the rules or he is munching, but he is abusing. I just wish I had my php with me, I'm sure I could find a quote somewere that proves him wrong. Talk about it to your dm, i'm sure you can arange something, but this aint normal.
MarkB
10-06-04, 09:54 AM You are correct. A Full Attack action is a full-round action. If you make a full attack, you can't do anything else that round except a 5-foot step.

You can make a single attack as a Standard Action and still take other actions that round, but you only get one attack that way, regardless of Rapid Shot or Two Weapon Fighting feats, and you can only take one standard action per round - your other actions that round can consist of a move-equivalent action and/or free actions.

EDIT: re-reading your post, I see what your friend is trying to do. It's an interesting idea, and I'm not sure there is a firm ruling about mixing ranged and melee attacks as part of a Full Attack, at least as far as how you apply extra-attack feats is concerned.

Certainly, where the monk is concerned, Flurry of Blows is specifically described as allowing only unarmed attacks or special monk weapons, and I'd take that to mean the monk can't use any normally-armed attacks that round, not just that the extra attack from the Flurry must be unarmed or using monk weapons.
Thorak
10-06-04, 11:19 AM Certainly, where the monk is concerned, Flurry of Blows is specifically described as allowing only unarmed attacks or special monk weapons, and I'd take that to mean the monk can't use any normally-armed attacks that round, not just that the extra attack from the Flurry must be unarmed or using monk weapons.
As much as I agree with you, the FAQ does not. Except that it requires you to use the non-monk weapon as the off-hand weapon, and be using TWFing as well. On top of the Rapid Shot, and potentially Flurry penalties. You'll be whipping arrows everywhere, but you won't be hitting anything.

Also, note that the archer-monk is provoking an AoO every time he fires that bow.
sidekick
10-06-04, 05:30 PM hmm the first one is legal but I'm not too sure about the archer monk.

For the flurry/TWF one you'd have to have a monk weapon for your offhand weapon, thus say with a kama you'd have -4/-4/-4 for three attacks (your flurry is the primary attack and then use TWF for the off hand attack).

The rapid shot flurry cannot work because the bow isn't a 'monk weapon'. Even if it could work it would be at -6/-6/-6 (the bow isn't a light off-hand weapon) and would draw 2 attacks of opportunity (rapid shot requires two atacks with the bow).

Anywho hope that helps. You could use throwing axes with rapid shot and TWF for three ranged attacks but again its -4/-4/-4. That's a pretty hefty minus at 1st to 3rd level.
Nom
10-07-04, 02:59 AM He was saying if you had a low-level character with Two-weapon Fighting, Quickdraw, and Rapid Shot that you could get two attacks with your melee weapon (1 extra at your highest BAB bonus), take a 5-foot step back, draw a dagger and throw it using the Quickdraw and Rapid Shot (gaining one extra attack) feats.
Well, Rapid Shot says that "you can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon". It doesn't explicitly state that the other attacks have to be made with the ranged weapon, so there's room to wriggle there.

Personally, I don't think what he's proposing is unbalancing. Sure, he gets a thrown dagger attack, but in exchange he pays a feat and suffers a -2 penalty to all attacks that round. The other catch is that he needs to do something with his melee weapon while throwing that dagger. Options are to hold it in the off hand (problematic with a shield) or drop it.

Assuming he can hold it in his off hand, the DM is within his rights to rule that there is no time left to take a free action to re-wield the sword, and thus the character cannot make AoOs until his next turn. My own interpretation / house rule allows characters to return a weapon to their hand as a free action at the end of the turn, but they still cannot make AoOs until their next turn.

Side point: a character that has 2 attacks per round from BAB is not low level. That's at least level 6, which is low-mid or even mid level.
He also was pointing out that as a Monk using a bow, if he had Rapid Shot he could fire two arrows and use his Flurry of Blows against an adjacent opponent; making 4 attacks in that round!Assuming you accept that a monk can use a two-handed non-monk weapon to make an off-hand attack, yes. Now, let's assume this character is level 1 (mnk1). To make that attack as best they can, they need Bow proficiency (1 feat), Rapid Shot (1 feat), and TWF (1 feat). Even as a human, no non-fighter can get 3 feats at level 1.

Assume then the character is either Mnk1 /? 1 (where ? gets martial weapon prof) or Mnk 3. What does this ability they've burned 3 feats on get them? FoB is +1 attack at -2. Rapid shot is +1 attack at -2. TWF is +1 attack at -4 (a bow is not) a light weapon. So he gets two melee attacks (std, fob) at -8/-8, plus two bow attacks (twf, rapid) at -8/-8.

Doesn't look nearly as impressive when you figure all the penalties, does it?
So tell me ladies and gentlemen; who's right, and if I'm wrong why is that? I just think the possibility of a low-level character getting 3 or 4 attacks in a round is ridiculous!Let them try. Just remember that all those "-2 to all attacks" (or worse) penalties stack.
Naeron
10-07-04, 08:45 AM Ok, here's a topic a friend and I got into last night. Reading into the Player's Handbook, I found that both state you're allowed a 5-foot step after as part of your action when performing the Full Attack and the Full Round action. My question is this; if you can only get 1 Full Round Action in a round, how many attacks can you get in using a Full Attack Action in a round.

Let me pose the question in point my friend was bringing up:

He was saying if you had a low-level character with Two-weapon Fighting, Quickdraw, and Rapid Shot that you could get two attacks with your melee weapon (1 extra at your highest BAB bonus), take a 5-foot step back, draw a dagger and throw it using the Quickdraw and Rapid Shot (gaining one extra attack) feats.

This is possible, however you would have to use a Full-attack and take the penalties for both TWF and Rapid Shot as they are for all attacks. So that is a net -4 on every attack if the offhand weapon is light (note that the extra melee attack from TWF must be with an offhand weapon, it does not give you an extra attack with your main melee weapon so it would probably be 1 attack at -4 with the primary weapon, 1 melee attack with a dagger at -4 and 1 ranged attack with a dagger at -4).

He also was pointing out that as a Monk using a bow, if he had Rapid Shot he could fire two arrows and use his Flurry of Blows against an adjacent opponent; making 4 attacks in that round!

Now, for a low-level character that would normally only have 1 or 2 attacks for a Full Attack Action in a round, 3 or 4 attacks seem a little excessive!

Not quite. Rapid shot with the bow would give him 2 attacks and flurry would give him 1 extra attack and they all take the penalties. This would mean a total of 3 attacks all at -4 (until the flurry penalty is lowered at high level). He might also draw AoO’s in this situation for making a ranged attack in a threatened area. I need to check the FAQ but you might have to add TWF penalties into this.

My point I was bringing up was this:

To me, using Flurry of Blows or Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting is basically meaning you're doing your Full Attack Action to do just that. I don't think they should stack; regardless of what penalties you take to do all those actions in a round. My argument was this; if you only get one Full Round Action in a round, then you should only get one Full Attack Action in a round (and I consider any attack where you get 1 extra attack a Full Attack Action).

So tell me ladies and gentlemen; who's right, and if I'm wrong why is that? I just think the possibility of a low-level character getting 3 or 4 attacks in a round is ridiculous!

Thanks for the feedback

Well a TWF'ing 15th level Monk using flurry, which is completely legal can, can get up to 9 melee attacks a round (3 base, +3 from ITWF, +2 from flurry, +1 from haste or a speed weapon) with 7 of those based on the full bab number with only a -2 for Two weapon fighting.

So 3 attacks with heavy penalties at low level doesn't look that bad.
Munz
10-07-04, 09:11 AM One point I think I must have forgotten to illustrate that brought up this debate in the first place is this:
The Monk Archer needs to weild the bow with both hands to fire it only; therefore it stands to reason that as a free action he would have one hand free in between firing the bow by which he could take AoO on people near him or do a full-attack action to do a Flurry on somebody next to him, take a 5 foot step back and continue to do a Rapid shot on the opponent.

Now that I think about it, I don't think you CAN attack, take a 5 foot step and continue the attack. Any thoughts on this? What about the idea that since the Monk could technically have one hand free until firing the bow, that he would be able to take AoO against adjacent opponents?

I can definitely see where taking the Two Weapon Fighting penalties would apply in this case, especially since the monk is treated as being armed when not weilding a weapon AND using a bow; hence two-weapon fighting (fists and bow)

Thanks again guys
Nom
10-07-04, 10:49 AM One point I think I must have forgotten to illustrate that brought up this debate in the first place is this:

The Monk Archer needs to weild the bow with both hands to fire it only; therefore it stands to reason that as a free action he would have one hand free in between firing the bow by which he could take AoO on people near him or do a full-attack action to do a Flurry on somebody next to him, take a 5 foot step back and continue to do a Rapid shot on the opponent.Partly wrong, partly right.

It doesn't stand to reason that the monk can make attacks with his hands while using the bow. The bow is a two-handed weapon, and it requires both his hands full time.

However, the monk is able to make unarmed strikes while his hands are full (PH pg 41). So, a monk that can get 3 attacks a round can legitimately make two with a bow and 1 with a kick. Note that the kick in this example is a regular incremental attack, not a flurry bonus attack. Note also that this ability is a special monk Unarmed Strike ability, not derived from Improved Unarmed Strike.

Whether a character using a non-threatening weapon (eg bow, reach weapon vs adjacent) and a threatening weapon (eg monk unarmed strike) can make AoOs vs adjacent targets is an oft debated topic. In this case, it seems reasonable, especially since the monk made a melee attack as one of his/her normal attacks.
Now that I think about it, I don't think you CAN attack, take a 5 foot step and continue the attack. Any thoughts on this?PH pg 143 explicitly says that the 5 foot step may be taken at any time during a full attack, even between attacks.
I can definitely see where taking the Two Weapon Fighting penalties would apply in this case, especially since the monk is treated as being armed when not weilding a weapon AND using a bow; hence two-weapon fighting (fists and bow)
A monk holding (but not using) the bow can use flurry to gain an extra attack. It becomes problematic if the bow is used to attack, as (1) "when using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons" and (2) a bow is a two-handed weapon, so it doesn't really work as an "off hand" weapon.

However, you don't need two-weapon fighting to make attacks with different weapons. With Quick Draw, Rapid Shot and BAB+6, it's quite legal to throw a javelin (+6-2=+4), then quick draw and throw a second javelin (same), and finally quick draw a sword, 5 ft step, and attack (+1-2=-1). Or you could shoot a bow twice, drop the bow, and quick draw the sword. TWF only comes into play when you try to gain an extra attack by virtue of having an off-hand weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Munz 10-06-04, 09:30 AM	Ok, here's a topic a friend and I got into last night. Reading into the Player's Handbook, I found that both state you're allowed a 5-foot step after as part of your action when performing the Full Attack and the Full Round action. My question is this; if you can only get 1 Full Round Action in a round, how many attacks can you get in using a Full Attack Action in a round. Let me pose the question in point my friend was bringing up: He was saying if you had a low-level character with Two-weapon Fighting, Quickdraw, and Rapid Shot that you could get two attacks with your melee weapon (1 extra at your highest BAB bonus), take a 5-foot step back, draw a dagger and throw it using the Quickdraw and Rapid Shot (gaining one extra attack) feats. He also was pointing out that as a Monk using a bow, if he had Rapid Shot he could fire two arrows and use his Flurry of Blows against an adjacent opponent; making 4 attacks in that round! Now, for a low-level character that would normally only have 1 or 2 attacks for a Full Attack Action in a round, 3 or 4 attacks seem a little excessive! My point I was bringing up was this: To me, using Flurry of Blows or Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting is basically meaning you're doing your Full Attack Action to do just that. I don't think they should stack; regardless of what penalties you take to do all those actions in a round. My argument was this; if you only get one Full Round Action in a round, then you should only get one Full Attack Action in a round (and I consider any attack where you get 1 extra attack a Full Attack Action). So tell me ladies and gentlemen; who's right, and if I'm wrong why is that? I just think the possibility of a low-level character getting 3 or 4 attacks in a round is ridiculous! Thanks for the feedback
Enalung 10-06-04, 09:51 AM	Either way he has found a weakness in the rules or he is munching, but he is abusing. I just wish I had my php with me, I'm sure I could find a quote somewere that proves him wrong. Talk about it to your dm, i'm sure you can arange something, but this aint normal.
MarkB 10-06-04, 09:54 AM	You are correct. A Full Attack action is a full-round action. If you make a full attack, you can't do anything else that round except a 5-foot step. You can make a single attack as a Standard Action and still take other actions that round, but you only get one attack that way, regardless of Rapid Shot or Two Weapon Fighting feats, and you can only take one standard action per round - your other actions that round can consist of a move-equivalent action and/or free actions. EDIT: re-reading your post, I see what your friend is trying to do. It's an interesting idea, and I'm not sure there is a firm ruling about mixing ranged and melee attacks as part of a Full Attack, at least as far as how you apply extra-attack feats is concerned. Certainly, where the monk is concerned, Flurry of Blows is specifically described as allowing only unarmed attacks or special monk weapons, and I'd take that to mean the monk can't use any normally-armed attacks that round, not just that the extra attack from the Flurry must be unarmed or using monk weapons.
Thorak 10-06-04, 11:19 AM	Certainly, where the monk is concerned, Flurry of Blows is specifically described as allowing only unarmed attacks or special monk weapons, and I'd take that to mean the monk can't use any normally-armed attacks that round, not just that the extra attack from the Flurry must be unarmed or using monk weapons. As much as I agree with you, the FAQ does not. Except that it requires you to use the non-monk weapon as the off-hand weapon, and be using TWFing as well. On top of the Rapid Shot, and potentially Flurry penalties. You'll be whipping arrows everywhere, but you won't be hitting anything. Also, note that the archer-monk is provoking an AoO every time he fires that bow.
sidekick 10-06-04, 05:30 PM	hmm the first one is legal but I'm not too sure about the archer monk. For the flurry/TWF one you'd have to have a monk weapon for your offhand weapon, thus say with a kama you'd have -4/-4/-4 for three attacks (your flurry is the primary attack and then use TWF for the off hand attack). The rapid shot flurry cannot work because the bow isn't a 'monk weapon'. Even if it could work it would be at -6/-6/-6 (the bow isn't a light off-hand weapon) and would draw 2 attacks of opportunity (rapid shot requires two atacks with the bow). Anywho hope that helps. You could use throwing axes with rapid shot and TWF for three ranged attacks but again its -4/-4/-4. That's a pretty hefty minus at 1st to 3rd level.
Nom 10-07-04, 02:59 AM	He was saying if you had a low-level character with Two-weapon Fighting, Quickdraw, and Rapid Shot that you could get two attacks with your melee weapon (1 extra at your highest BAB bonus), take a 5-foot step back, draw a dagger and throw it using the Quickdraw and Rapid Shot (gaining one extra attack) feats. Well, Rapid Shot says that "you can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon". It doesn't explicitly state that the other attacks have to be made with the ranged weapon, so there's room to wriggle there. Personally, I don't think what he's proposing is unbalancing. Sure, he gets a thrown dagger attack, but in exchange he pays a feat and suffers a -2 penalty to all attacks that round. The other catch is that he needs to do something with his melee weapon while throwing that dagger. Options are to hold it in the off hand (problematic with a shield) or drop it. Assuming he can hold it in his off hand, the DM is within his rights to rule that there is no time left to take a free action to re-wield the sword, and thus the character cannot make AoOs until his next turn. My own interpretation / house rule allows characters to return a weapon to their hand as a free action at the end of the turn, but they still cannot make AoOs until their next turn. Side point: a character that has 2 attacks per round from BAB is not low level. That's at least level 6, which is low-mid or even mid level. He also was pointing out that as a Monk using a bow, if he had Rapid Shot he could fire two arrows and use his Flurry of Blows against an adjacent opponent; making 4 attacks in that round!Assuming you accept that a monk can use a two-handed non-monk weapon to make an off-hand attack, yes. Now, let's assume this character is level 1 (mnk1). To make that attack as best they can, they need Bow proficiency (1 feat), Rapid Shot (1 feat), and TWF (1 feat). Even as a human, no non-fighter can get 3 feats at level 1. Assume then the character is either Mnk1 /? 1 (where ? gets martial weapon prof) or Mnk 3. What does this ability they've burned 3 feats on get them? FoB is +1 attack at -2. Rapid shot is +1 attack at -2. TWF is +1 attack at -4 (a bow is not) a light weapon. So he gets two melee attacks (std, fob) at -8/-8, plus two bow attacks (twf, rapid) at -8/-8. Doesn't look nearly as impressive when you figure all the penalties, does it? So tell me ladies and gentlemen; who's right, and if I'm wrong why is that? I just think the possibility of a low-level character getting 3 or 4 attacks in a round is ridiculous!Let them try. Just remember that all those "-2 to all attacks" (or worse) penalties stack.
Naeron 10-07-04, 08:45 AM	Ok, here's a topic a friend and I got into last night. Reading into the Player's Handbook, I found that both state you're allowed a 5-foot step after as part of your action when performing the Full Attack and the Full Round action. My question is this; if you can only get 1 Full Round Action in a round, how many attacks can you get in using a Full Attack Action in a round. Let me pose the question in point my friend was bringing up: He was saying if you had a low-level character with Two-weapon Fighting, Quickdraw, and Rapid Shot that you could get two attacks with your melee weapon (1 extra at your highest BAB bonus), take a 5-foot step back, draw a dagger and throw it using the Quickdraw and Rapid Shot (gaining one extra attack) feats. This is possible, however you would have to use a Full-attack and take the penalties for both TWF and Rapid Shot as they are for all attacks. So that is a net -4 on every attack if the offhand weapon is light (note that the extra melee attack from TWF must be with an offhand weapon, it does not give you an extra attack with your main melee weapon so it would probably be 1 attack at -4 with the primary weapon, 1 melee attack with a dagger at -4 and 1 ranged attack with a dagger at -4). He also was pointing out that as a Monk using a bow, if he had Rapid Shot he could fire two arrows and use his Flurry of Blows against an adjacent opponent; making 4 attacks in that round! Now, for a low-level character that would normally only have 1 or 2 attacks for a Full Attack Action in a round, 3 or 4 attacks seem a little excessive! Not quite. Rapid shot with the bow would give him 2 attacks and flurry would give him 1 extra attack and they all take the penalties. This would mean a total of 3 attacks all at -4 (until the flurry penalty is lowered at high level). He might also draw AoO’s in this situation for making a ranged attack in a threatened area. I need to check the FAQ but you might have to add TWF penalties into this. My point I was bringing up was this: To me, using Flurry of Blows or Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting is basically meaning you're doing your Full Attack Action to do just that. I don't think they should stack; regardless of what penalties you take to do all those actions in a round. My argument was this; if you only get one Full Round Action in a round, then you should only get one Full Attack Action in a round (and I consider any attack where you get 1 extra attack a Full Attack Action). So tell me ladies and gentlemen; who's right, and if I'm wrong why is that? I just think the possibility of a low-level character getting 3 or 4 attacks in a round is ridiculous! Thanks for the feedback Well a TWF'ing 15th level Monk using flurry, which is completely legal can, can get up to 9 melee attacks a round (3 base, +3 from ITWF, +2 from flurry, +1 from haste or a speed weapon) with 7 of those based on the full bab number with only a -2 for Two weapon fighting. So 3 attacks with heavy penalties at low level doesn't look that bad.
Munz 10-07-04, 09:11 AM	One point I think I must have forgotten to illustrate that brought up this debate in the first place is this: The Monk Archer needs to weild the bow with both hands to fire it only; therefore it stands to reason that as a free action he would have one hand free in between firing the bow by which he could take AoO on people near him or do a full-attack action to do a Flurry on somebody next to him, take a 5 foot step back and continue to do a Rapid shot on the opponent. Now that I think about it, I don't think you CAN attack, take a 5 foot step and continue the attack. Any thoughts on this? What about the idea that since the Monk could technically have one hand free until firing the bow, that he would be able to take AoO against adjacent opponents? I can definitely see where taking the Two Weapon Fighting penalties would apply in this case, especially since the monk is treated as being armed when not weilding a weapon AND using a bow; hence two-weapon fighting (fists and bow) Thanks again guys
Nom 10-07-04, 10:49 AM	One point I think I must have forgotten to illustrate that brought up this debate in the first place is this: The Monk Archer needs to weild the bow with both hands to fire it only; therefore it stands to reason that as a free action he would have one hand free in between firing the bow by which he could take AoO on people near him or do a full-attack action to do a Flurry on somebody next to him, take a 5 foot step back and continue to do a Rapid shot on the opponent.Partly wrong, partly right. It doesn't stand to reason that the monk can make attacks with his hands while using the bow. The bow is a two-handed weapon, and it requires both his hands full time. However, the monk is able to make unarmed strikes while his hands are full (PH pg 41). So, a monk that can get 3 attacks a round can legitimately make two with a bow and 1 with a kick. Note that the kick in this example is a regular incremental attack, not a flurry bonus attack. Note also that this ability is a special monk Unarmed Strike ability, not derived from Improved Unarmed Strike. Whether a character using a non-threatening weapon (eg bow, reach weapon vs adjacent) and a threatening weapon (eg monk unarmed strike) can make AoOs vs adjacent targets is an oft debated topic. In this case, it seems reasonable, especially since the monk made a melee attack as one of his/her normal attacks. Now that I think about it, I don't think you CAN attack, take a 5 foot step and continue the attack. Any thoughts on this?PH pg 143 explicitly says that the 5 foot step may be taken at any time during a full attack, even between attacks. I can definitely see where taking the Two Weapon Fighting penalties would apply in this case, especially since the monk is treated as being armed when not weilding a weapon AND using a bow; hence two-weapon fighting (fists and bow) A monk holding (but not using) the bow can use flurry to gain an extra attack. It becomes problematic if the bow is used to attack, as (1) "when using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons" and (2) a bow is a two-handed weapon, so it doesn't really work as an "off hand" weapon. However, you don't need two-weapon fighting to make attacks with different weapons. With Quick Draw, Rapid Shot and BAB+6, it's quite legal to throw a javelin (+6-2=+4), then quick draw and throw a second javelin (same), and finally quick draw a sword, 5 ft step, and attack (+1-2=-1). Or you could shoot a bow twice, drop the bow, and quick draw the sword. TWF only comes into play when you try to gain an extra attack by virtue of having an off-hand weapon.