Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shiftless435 11-15-04, 03:21 AM	Funny story I figured I would tell... So today I experienced my third character death (usually DM) and it was hilarious. Three level 11 PC's (wizard, barb, rogue) and 4 level 9 NPC raid a dungeon as part of a storyline. We basicly own it until the very end. At this point we encounter a strange construct from MM3 with a supposed challenge rating of 15. Now, before I explain what happened let me say we are all competent players and in a high magic campaign so we all had +3 armor/weapons. Additionally, two players were monster characters and so more powerful then they should have been (example. Barbarian with 26 str, 20 con). So we were fairly powerful... Now, it drops from the ceiling and immediately kills one player and it was all down hill from there. We deal massive damage and end up killing it in 4 rounds but expending every resource we had. Unfortunately, those resources included 6 characters (9th lvl NPC rogue lived). Yes, you read that right. 6 characters in 4 rounds. This thing killed 1.5 characters a round! Honestly, I thought it was hilarious and didnt blame the DM. He went by the CR and we all got screwed =). I just thought it was an hilarious example of CRs gone wrong...
Jallis 370 11-15-04, 05:45 AM	It's like zombies and sceletons in 3.5. They have low CR and attack but HIGH HP!! A cleric of equal level can't turn them anymore...
Naeron 11-15-04, 06:37 AM	It's like zombies and sceletons in 3.5. They have low CR and attack but HIGH HP!! A cleric of equal level can't turn them anymore... Since when? A 1st level Cleric with a +1 charisma modifier can expect, on average, to turn 4 wolf skeletons (2HD) or Humanoid Zombies (2HD) with a 45% success rate (60% vs Humanoid sekeletons and will turn 9 of them). At 2nd level Cleric its a 60% success rate and they can destroy the weakest skeletons and zombies. HP are irrelevant to turning attempts its only HD that count and a cleric can turn undead of their level +3 on a good roll without having a high Charisma mod.
Morwen 11-15-04, 06:25 PM	Well, I'm just going to assume that you're referring to the Slaughterstone Behemoth (since that's the only CR15 Construct in MM3). As the descriptive text says, it "wades in to trample" when facing numerous foes, but "is at the mercy of highly mobile groups with ranged capabilities". Since you encountered this construct in a dungeon, there is obviously nearly no way for you to be highly mobile. In addition, you were taken entirely by surprise since it dropped down from the ceiling, and it's CR is quite a bit higher than the party level. If your DM didn't give the party at least some indication that the dungeon would be very dangerous, then I think he simply made a mistake in placing this construct there. It should not be a surprise encounter for a lower level party, as that is almost guaranteed to be a near-TPK (it has 36 AC and 4 +32 melee attacks with 4d6+13 damage, and Damage Reduction 10/adamantine, as well as resistance 10 to all elements and Spell Resistance 23). In other words, this is an encounter that needs to be prepared for (for instance you could have been given an indication that an 18th level spellcaster used to inhabited the dungeon, since that is the minimum caster level for creating a Slaughterstone Behemoth), not something that should drop down on the head of one of the partymembers. Speaking of which, I'd like to see a 10000 pound construct dropping from the cealing :) How did it get up there in the first place?
mermin_8403 11-18-04, 02:54 PM	Since when? A 1st level Cleric with a +1 charisma modifier can expect, on average, to turn 4 wolf skeletons (2HD) or Humanoid Zombies (2HD) with a 45% success rate (60% vs Humanoid sekeletons and will turn 9 of them). At 2nd level Cleric its a 60% success rate and they can destroy the weakest skeletons and zombies. HP are irrelevant to turning attempts its only HD that count and a cleric can turn undead of their level +3 on a good roll without having a high Charisma mod. I believe we are referring to higher CR skeletons and zombies. For example, a 20 HD zombie is CR 6. No level six cleric will EVER get to turn one. The only saving grace of higher level zombies is that they only get partial actions, so they can only attack once per round, and you can outrun them to use ranged attacks. And a 20 hd skeleton is only CR 8. And doesn't have the horrible weaknesses of a zombie. The young adult red dragon skeleton listed in the MM will have a quick and bloody battle with a level 8 party, probably resulting in anywhere from 1 kill to a TPK. Try your friendly level 8 party against one and see how it does.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-18-04, 04:34 PM	I believe we are referring to higher CR skeletons and zombies. For example, a 20 HD zombie is CR 6. No level six cleric will EVER get to turn one. The only saving grace of higher level zombies is that they only get partial actions, so they can only attack once per round, and you can outrun them to use ranged attacks. And a 20 hd skeleton is only CR 8. And doesn't have the horrible weaknesses of a zombie. The young adult red dragon skeleton listed in the MM will have a quick and bloody battle with a level 8 party, probably resulting in anywhere from 1 kill to a TPK. Try your friendly level 8 party against one and see how it does. Actually I've noticed the same thing. I recent sent my party, I DM, against 7 Drowned from the MM3 (CR8). They are around 11ish level and the is 7 of them. I also have allowed leadership, so thier actuall party size is something like 11 or 12. Anyways there is abosultely the party cleric was able to turn them. Even just one. They were dispatched quickly with a couple of cone of colds. But looking over a few of the encounters that are in there paths, lots of undead, and I came to conclusion that turning was useless, except when used with divine meta magics. Weird though, becuase I've seen higher level clerics turn zombies like a mofu. Ah-well the joys of 3.5 I guess.