Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ressurrector 05-21-06, 03:57 AM	My level 3 artificier found a deck of many things earlier today, and drew a card accidentally, followed by 3 more intensionally. The first card was death, I got lucky and beat it with 2 hp remaining (of 25) The next card was the talons (loose all magical items) lost: 100,000 gp staff (the only reason I survived the first card), ring of wish, belt of dwarvenkind, some of the group loot I was carrying. Next card: the one that changes your alignment (fortunately I was L/N and allready with a slight chaotic leaning) Final card: the moon, with 4 wishes. First wish: replaced all the gear lost to the Talon with similar items Second wish (screwed up, now have a permanant image hovering in front of me forever) Third wish, got a permanant tongues spell on myself Fourth wish, got an ioun stone of sustenance (misunderstood wish) Just wanted to share the fun. My gnomish artificier beat up death!
Witch 05-21-06, 04:30 AM	My level 3 artificier found a deck of many things earlier today, and drew a card accidentally, followed by 3 more intensionally. The first card was death, I got lucky and beat it with 2 hp remaining (of 25) The next card was the talons (loose all magical items) lost: 100,000 gp staff (the only reason I survived the first card), ring of wish, belt of dwarvenkind, some of the group loot I was carrying. Right.
BladeBoy 05-21-06, 08:12 AM	1st off. Yeah right. You can't accidently draw a card, you have to declare how many you will draw before you can do anything. and once you start, you can't add on to that number. 2nd, level 3? 100k staff? monty haul is calling..
swindy 05-21-06, 09:14 AM	What i wanted t do with a deck of many things, is be a bard, have the spell glibness (+30 to bluff) and trick opponents into drawing. The problem is, that they can gain from it, but hey just an idea to annoy the things we come against or the DM either way.
ProfWhy 05-21-06, 12:52 PM	1st off. Yeah right. You can't accidently draw a card, you have to declare how many you will draw before you can do anything. and once you start, you can't add on to that number. 2nd, level 3? 100k staff? monty haul is calling.. I totally agree with BladeBoy on these things... Sounds like your DM didn't understand how to run a DoMT in the first place... However, I probably couldn't expect it to be run correctly from someone tossing out rings of wishes and other high-powered magic to 3rd level characters... ;)
hmmmm 05-21-06, 01:39 PM	Wow I wish I had a 100k staff at level 3.
ressurrector 05-21-06, 02:09 PM	1: the game is VERY Maunty Haulish 2: we're not being too serious in any respect. 3: yeah, we've got far more treasure than we really should, but the staff was only really usefull against undead and evil outsiders. (Ghost striking, Holy Burst, +1, double weapon for double cost) The ring of wish (one wish only) was gotten in trade for a semi-cursed item with a huge benefit. 4: we've got more treasure than we should, but it's not all that usefull in combat in most situations, and we've been facing multiple CR6 enemies at lvl 3 here.
Black Kitten 05-21-06, 02:17 PM	1: the game is VERY Maunty Haulish 2: we're not being too serious in any respect. 3: yeah, we've got far more treasure than we really should, but the staff was only really usefull against undead and evil outsiders. (Ghost striking, Holy Burst, +1, double weapon for double cost) The ring of wish (one wish only) was gotten in trade for a semi-cursed item with a huge benefit. 4: we've got more treasure than we should, but it's not all that usefull in combat in most situations, and we've been facing multiple CR6 enemies at lvl 3 here. CR6 creatures make very good opponents to very tactical lvl 3 parties, especially if they are all good builds. The lvl 2 party I play in were nearly taken down by a mummy, but with some luck and a lot of fuel to burn the thing, we beat it.
Ryusage 05-21-06, 02:43 PM	Depends on the monsterl; there are a lot of things that are faster than a mummy ;)
ressurrector 05-21-06, 04:31 PM	CR6 creatures make very good opponents to very tactical lvl 3 parties, especially if they are all good builds. The lvl 2 party I play in were nearly taken down by a mummy, but with some luck and a lot of fuel to burn the thing, we beat it. We are far from optomized. artificier 3 (without any wands/scrolls of damage spells) Druid 3 (flaming sphere as only spell that deals damage, no armor, no animal companion, no weapon, AC 10) Ranger 1/Cleric 2 (no weapons or armor, no damage spells, lost his gear when he was reincarnated) Paladin 3 with a holy avenger greatsword Bard 3 (no weapons or armor) we've got lots of magical goodies, but with the exception of my staff and the holy avenger, none are any use in combat except for a couple 1 use only things. It's not a heavy combat game to begin with however, in face we went lvl 1-4 with only 2 combats, (exp gained through roleplaying and other stuff)
dragonseth 05-21-06, 04:50 PM	Urge...to ask...rising... What were the second and fourth wishes exactly? Just for laughs. :D
ressurrector 05-22-06, 12:58 AM	Wish #2: There was this legendary artifact my Artificier is obsessed with (no, it dosen't have any cool powers, it's just legendary. A clockwork nightengale if you must know) He wished for this: "I want (name of mech. nightengale) to appear in front of me and remain there. (trying to phrase it so that I could just get the darn thing) I got a permanant image of it in front of me, which also travels with me. Wish #4: the DM was using the old 1st ed DoMT, which has a time limit. He pulled out a stopwatch and clocked me making wishes, so I'm struggling for the 4th wish, and finally come up with: "I wish I wasn't so crappy at combat" Unfortunately the time ran out at: I wish I wasn't so crappy... The DM interpreted this (maliciously) as the character wishing to not defecate ever again, and gave me an ioun stone of sustenance to fulfill that wish.
Tempest Stormwind 05-22-06, 01:03 AM	Artifact, potent ring, potent staff... Yeah, monty haul. Nothing *wrong* with that (assuming it's what the DM and the players want, and here it seems it is), just calling it what it is. However, that aside, it's LUDICROUSLY easy to trick the deck, and with 2nd level cleric spells nevertheless. Augury. Determines if an action will result in weal, woe, both, or, if it fails, nothing. Ask about drawing 1 card from the deck. If weal, ask about drawing 2 cards. Keep going until you get a Woe or a Nothing as the response to one of your questions. Declare you're drawing the previous number of cards (i.e. 3 weals and a woe, draw 3). Team cleric FTW.
ProfWhy 05-22-06, 02:02 AM	Wish #4: the DM was using the old 1st ed DoMT, which has a time limit. Actually, the version in the DMG 3.5 also has a time limit attached to the wishes, where they must be used in as many minutes as the number of wishes received (e.g. 3 wishes in 3 minutes).
felinoel 05-22-06, 02:31 AM	omg that deck has tortured my group, we got that tower card for the guys hometown and he doesnt know where he is from and also we lost one of our characters sould and death as well, jeez
Bryarr 05-22-06, 04:11 AM	Wish #4: the DM was using the old 1st ed DoMT, which has a time limit. He pulled out a stopwatch and clocked me making wishes, so I'm struggling for the 4th wish, and finally come up with: "I wish I wasn't so crappy at combat" Unfortunately the time ran out at: I wish I wasn't so crappy... The DM interpreted this (maliciously) as the character wishing to not defecate ever again, and gave me an ioun stone of sustenance to fulfill that wish. :rofl:
solbergb 05-22-06, 02:51 PM	Heh. I inflicted that deck on my sister's party, back in the early 80s. She still remembers it...we were just talking about it yesterday. That item just traumatizes parties. It can be great fun, if you're prepared for the campaign fallout (you need a prison for anyone who draws that card, you need a powerful outsider to hate the drawer if they draw the other card, etc) As for fooling with augury #1, it's an artifact and not even gods get to know what happens when you draw, and #2, auguries aren't 100% accurate. #3 Most draws give "Weal and Woe" anyway, which won't deter most PC's from stupidly drawing 5 cards.
Far_Traveler 05-22-06, 03:02 PM	the deck of many things invariably ruins a campaign it either kills people, or makes them stronger then the rest of the party i demand a penny for my thoughts! ;P (i am so putting that in my sig, you guys can go ahead)
ressurrector 05-22-06, 06:48 PM	Well so far, my misadventures have just made the other players stay the heck away from the deck. Personally I don't mind as A: I am still alive B: I got replacement trinkets, meaning new spells/effects to study C: I can study the darn deck, and not fear for drawing cards accidentally, since I've allready drawn once. Though I'm pretty sure the party Wizard will want a card or two...
Black Kitten 05-22-06, 06:51 PM	We are far from optomized. artificier 3 (without any wands/scrolls of damage spells) Druid 3 (flaming sphere as only spell that deals damage, no armor, no animal companion, no weapon, AC 10) Ranger 1/Cleric 2 (no weapons or armor, no damage spells, lost his gear when he was reincarnated) Paladin 3 with a holy avenger greatsword Bard 3 (no weapons or armor) we've got lots of magical goodies, but with the exception of my staff and the holy avenger, none are any use in combat except for a couple 1 use only things. It's not a heavy combat game to begin with however, in face we went lvl 1-4 with only 2 combats, (exp gained through roleplaying and other stuff) Our party wasn't really optimised either: Human Rogue/Wizard 1/1; Warforged Fighter 2; Gnome Artificer 2; Half-elf Bard 2 and a Monk 2. You must remember that at low levels the greatest looser party consisting of meleeing wizards can do great if they pick their strategy right. Chaos doesn't only ensue from having big damage dealers, but from taking advantage of each situation.
tiercel 05-23-06, 03:09 AM	Well, it's a full-on Monty Haul campaign (and if you are all having fun, cool), but I have to say: 1) The DoMT tends to kill campaigns. Enough draws through the entire party means that, on average, half the party will be ridiculously powerful afterward and the other half will be irrevocably hosed/dead/soul carted off to another dimension. (And you rarely get the average with the DoMT.) 2) When a level 3 anything, even with prodigious amounts of wealth, can solo an unturnable dread wraith (CR 11, before "unturnable"), something is just.... whoa. (And this is "not optimized"?!) We are talking about freakish amounts of luck unless that card was tweaked, because a dread wraith probably needs a 1 to miss, and almost any PC needs a 20 to save against Con drain. Oh yeah, and the wraith can Spring Attack out of the ground (and is more than smart enough to do so).... 3) While I personally think it is questionable DMing to include the DoMT in most campaigns except in the final session (except for really light and/or Monty Haul campaigns, like this one), I think it is downright silly to allow a 2nd level spell to defeat any element of risk involved with it. Any DM has several possible responses to this oft-trotted-out gambit: a) Simply assert that humble mortal magics (especially of 2nd level) simply don't work on artifacts. (Yes, disjunction has a chance to, specifically, but that's about as hideously powerful as mortal magic gets.) b) Smile, roll the dice for augury secretly (as you are supposed to), look at the result, look at your player with a straight face, and give a result of "Nothing." c) If you don't want to reasonably houserule as in (a) and think that (b) is too cheap, be as literal as your player is. Nowhere does the DoMT specify that it is to be shuffled or that the card order is, in actual fact, random. Feel free to order the cards any way you like. If your player notices this, tell them that they don't really have any reason to complain -- if he is going to say "augury doesn't say it doesn't work on artifacts," you have every right to say "the DoMT doesn't say the card order has to be random." d) Explain (a) through (c) to your player, and ask him whether he would like to play against his DM, or with his DM.
BladeBoy 05-23-06, 03:31 AM	Well, it's a full-on Monty Haul campaign (and if you are all having fun, cool), but I have to say: 2) When a level 3 anything, even with prodigious amounts of wealth, can solo an unturnable dread wraith (CR 11, before "unturnable"), something is just.... whoa. (And this is "not optimized"?!) We are talking about freakish amounts of luck unless that card was tweaked, because a dread wraith probably needs a 1 to miss, and almost any PC needs a 20 to save against Con drain. Oh yeah, and the wraith can Spring Attack out of the ground (and is more than smart enough to do so).... [/indent] I'm looking at the DMG, and it says you fight a unturnable Spectre. that does 2d8 every round with a ghost touch scythe. where do you read dread wraith from there?
Planar Wanderer 05-23-06, 11:21 AM	I'm looking at the DMG, and it says you fight a unturnable Spectre. that does 2d8 every round with a ghost touch scythe. where do you read dread wraith from there? Which edition are you reading? 3.5 DMG and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#skull) both say Dread Wraith but I don't know what the previous editions say
ProfWhy 05-23-06, 12:18 PM	Which edition are you reading? 3.5 DMG and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#skull) both say Dread Wraith but I don't know what the previous editions say He must be looking in the 3.0 DMG... just took a look in it, and it says it's an unturnable spectre... looks like WotC changed that up for 3.5...
ressurrector 05-23-06, 03:24 PM	2) When a level 3 anything, even with prodigious amounts of wealth, can solo an unturnable dread wraith (CR 11, before "unturnable"), something is just.... whoa. (And this is "not optimized"?!) We are talking about freakish amounts of luck unless that card was tweaked, because a dread wraith probably needs a 1 to miss, and almost any PC needs a 20 to save against Con drain. Oh yeah, and the wraith can Spring Attack out of the ground (and is more than smart enough to do so).... Fortunately the DM used the death from the DMG 1st edition, which had about 50 hp, auto-hit each round for 2d8 dmg, and had a decent AC. As far as the augury trick, neither I nor the DM would even concider that possible. For that matter via the rules, an artificier can easily and completely destroy any Artifact by sucking the xp out of it, but that's pretty dumb as well.
AaronDireBear 05-24-06, 10:36 PM	Just because theyre 3rd level doesn't mean that items aren't lying around....I mean come on its not like World of freaking Warcraft where everything has a level requirement, and all monsters/items are sorted by level... Ah and party wealth shouldnt be restricted by level... I mean, level 1 aristocrats have tons of gold. And its not like you can waltz into a store and get a Staff of Power (unless you happen to be in Sigil).
tiercel 05-24-06, 11:12 PM	Ah and party wealth shouldnt be restricted by level...Restricted in the sense of an absolute ceiling? No. But if party wealth gets way past the guidelines, the DM is going to have to do some serious work to figure out what a decent challenge will be. Let's say that we've got a 3rd level party going on a dungeon crawl, and they find a large room which contains four Large monstrous centipedes. At CR 1 each, this is an EL 4 encounter, and should be a bit on the tough side but do-able. Now, if you have given the party's wizard a staff of fire at 3rd level, he expends one charge and does 8d6 fire damage (average 28 damage, 14 on a successful save), with a pretty good likelihood (in a dungeon environment) of catching all four foes. Since Large centipedes have 13hp, if the wizard can roll average damage he annihilates the entire encounter with a single charge from his staff, even if they all make their saving throws. Even though it's EL 4, it's not very challenging. The problem is if you start using higher-CR monsters who can't be fireballed into oblivion in six seconds, they are also designed to fight higher-hp, higher-AC PCs, and will very likely shred even a well-equipped 3rd level character. The wealth by level guidelines are that -- guidelines -- but the further you get away from them, the harder you have to work to find good challenges that aren't complete pushovers and don't just wipe out the PCs either.
AaronDireBear 05-24-06, 11:41 PM	I refuse to believe that 100,000 gold pieces sitting in a 1st level character's basement would make it unbalancing or change his ECL...
ressurrector 05-25-06, 12:04 AM	I'd like to point out that the items we have that are usefull in combat are: holy avenger (in the paladins hands) Replacement staff: staff of the adder (1st ed) DC11 fort save or die for 10min continuous every day, may be destroyed (15AC 20hp) 2x +1 daggers the rest of the stuff is mainly just fun out of combat, for laughs.
Edymnion 05-25-06, 12:39 AM	I refuse to believe that 100,000 gold pieces sitting in a 1st level character's basement would make it unbalancing or change his ECL...No, it wouldn't. It would unbalance the character and change it's ECL when he proceeds to buy 100,000 gp worth of magical weapons and armor. And just for the record, I don't use a dread wraith for the Death card. I use an Entropic Reaper :devil:
AaronDireBear 05-25-06, 12:42 AM	Provided you assume that a guy can just waltz into a store and ask for a +5 Sword... And 5 points of damage is really no big deal. Its not going to matter what the plussage of your Fighter's weapon is when he's getting a fireball shoved up his derriere. What about fun, non combat gear? Ring of Prestigidation? (I can clean my trousers...) Wand of Dancing Lights? (Never hurt anyone) Helm of Underwater Breathing? (Doesnt make Krakens hit you less hard)
tiercel 05-25-06, 12:59 AM	I refuse to believe that 100,000 gold pieces sitting in a 1st level character's basement would make it unbalancing or change his ECL...Except, as pointed out, that much gold owned by a PC is rarely sitting around anywhere for long (unless the PC is temporarily saving up for something Really Big). Provided you assume that a guy can just waltz into a store and ask for a +5 Sword...Well... in part, buying and selling magic items is kind of assumed. While it might be a little crazy to go into Magi-Mart and get a +5 sword "off the rack," there ARE item creation feats in the game. At least some high-level NPCs probably exist in your game, at least some of which have taken item creation feats. You can always commission a work, if nothing else. (You'll have to be patient if that's what it takes, but, hey.) Heck, if you have that much money you can probably put a little bit of it to work finding out what powerful weaponry does exist. You may not be able to custom-order anything you want, but you may well find someone with a relic on their hands for whom enough money to buy a substantial plot of land is worth a lot more than a really nice sword. You might have to take what you can get but a +2 holy vicious scimitar is nothing to sneeze at, either. If none of this is a possibility then you probably really are in a low-magic world, and changing the background availability of magic has a similar effect to changing wealth level in terms of balancing challenging encounters.
ressurrector 05-25-06, 04:27 AM	What about fun, non combat gear? Ring of Prestigidation? (I can clean my trousers...) Wand of Dancing Lights? (Never hurt anyone) Helm of Underwater Breathing? (Doesnt make Krakens hit you less hard) Well, let me go through it: The paladin has a rod of splendor, but he's also a 2-headed ettin with an enormous appetite, he just uses it for the giant feast 1/week. We've got the DoMT, some one-shot charms (like leomunds tiny hut), about 6k in gold (and nowhere to spend it), an ioun stone of sustenance, a replacement ring of wish (which actually just summons a Genie, will be taken apart and studied later), an ebony fly, a belt of giant str (+4, but sized for a titan, and will not re-size), a lyre of building (I think, not sure), and a few other things I can't really remember. On the whole, the only ones that really help in combat are the paladins sword (but he's a giant here, the +5 to hit/dmg isn't that much compared to his str) and my staff of the adder, which I have to be very carefull not to break.
tiercel 05-25-06, 07:39 AM	The paladin has a rod of splendor, but he's also a 2-headed ettin Oh. Well, if he is a full ettin with 3 paladin levels, then he is ECL 18 (10 giant HD, LA+5, 3 levels). That's a lot different than the ECL 3 I'd been assuming.... (If he doesn't have any giant HD due to DM fiat, that's still ECL 8...)
ressurrector 05-25-06, 02:30 PM	Oh. Well, if he is a full ettin with 3 paladin levels, then he is ECL 18 (10 giant HD, LA+5, 3 levels). That's a lot different than the ECL 3 I'd been assuming.... (If he doesn't have any giant HD due to DM fiat, that's still ECL 8...) Ettin is the flavor, the DM is using a race method he created himself, and is actually quite well balanced. Feat/Flaw based He's done some work as a gamewriter in the past.