Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TelinArtho 06-16-05, 03:02 PM	I've been working on various thoughts for my character's army (that is - the one he will have, not the one he has - because he doesn't have one yet...). In this venture, I've produced several pages worth of material, most of which is probably drivel to the rest of you. For that I apologize. And for the most part, this post will be much of the same - so if you don't care about my army posts - please feel free to move on. For those of you still around, my next item up for consideration is the makeup of an army. In my past models, I've used a fairly large contingent of Infantry, Cavalry and Longbowmen. I've also used a comparatively high-level PC group as my example. As has been indicated before, this becomes pretty cost ineffective, pretty quickly. This however, really doesn't work given the scenario I'm planning for - that is - an assault on a Hill Giant tribe. My assumption that cavalry will be an integral part of my army is misguided - because horses will probably be ill-suited for the task. This isn't to say I shouldn't have cavalry, but I should at least consider other types of units to do the dirty work. Also, I really wanted to get my army down (in experience level) to a reasonable group, and have them mostly be NPC classes. So what would be ideal: 1. First of all - dwarves. One of my biggest hurdles is getting an armor class that is high enough to avoid a hit or two from a giant. Dwarves' +4 dodge AC versus giants is a big deal - and something I wasn't taking into consideration before. Also, since the giants will likely have some orcs or other lesser beings (against which the dwarves get a +1 to hit), they have a secondary benefit there too. Increased CON is a smaller detail, but important nonetheless. 2. The biggest problem with using dwarves in this example is their 15ft move when in medium or heavy armor (3.0 remember). I would prefer to have them start the battle in relative close quarters - so they don't need to dodge boulders on the way in (or at least, not a lot of them). 2. Since PC classes are so expensive, the warrior is going to be my "standard" class to work with. Although I will use some adepts as medics, the bulk of the army will be warriors. As such, I need to come up with a skill set that is pretty universal with a limited number of feats. 3. Area attack items. This is something I continue to balk at, but the fact of the matter is that magic can really turn the tide if done well. Against giants, a cluster of fire balls will do a fair amount of damage, but probably won't be enough to really take any of them down. If I can find a way for multiple fireballs just before my army converges on the enemy, I will definitely research it - as long as I don't go broke in the trying. Although, currently, I have 2 main aspirations for my army (to take the hill giants and to take a castle/keep), I do intend on making them a permanent force. As such, I will need to take into account the economics of supporting my troops for a long term. Here's a quick comparison between a 2nd level Human warrior and a 2nd level Dwarf warrior: Human Wr2: HD 2d8+4; hp 16; init +0; speed 20ft; AC 17; Glaive +4 hit (1d10+3, x3) or Long Sword +4 hit (1d8+2 dmg, 19-20/x2) or Javelin +2 hit (1d6+2 dmg, x2, 30ft incr); Saves +5/+0/+1; S 15 (+2) D 11 C 14 (+2) I 13 (+1) W 12 (+1) Ch 8 (-1); Climb +7, Swim +7, Spot* +3, Listen* +3; Quickdraw, Expertise; Equipment: Glaive, Long Sword, Lgt Mace, Dagger, Splint Mail, Buckler, 2 Javelins Dwarf Wr2: HD 2d8+6; hp 18; init +0; speed 15ft; AC 17 (21 vs. giants); Glaive +4 hit (+5 vs orcs/goblins) (1d10+3, x3) or Long Sword +4 hit (+5 vs orcs/goblins) (1d8+2 dmg, 19-20/x2) or Javelin +2 hit (+5 vs orcs/goblins) (1d6+2 dmg, x2, 30ft incr); Saves +6/+0/+1; S 15 (+2) D 11 C 16 (+3) I 13 (+1) W 12 (+1) Ch 6 (-2); Climb +4, Swim +5, Spot* +3.5, Listen* +3.5; Quickdraw; Specials: Darkvision 60ft, +4 dodge AC vs Giants, +1 hit vs. orcs/goblinoids, Stonecunning, +2 Craft/Appraise checks when dealing with metal or stone; Equipment: Glaive, Long Sword, Lgt Mace, Dagger, Splint Mail, Buckler, 2 Javelins Given my first task of the giants, the dwarves definitely have the advantage. Unfortunately, in neither case will they survive for long against a hill giant (2 attacks at +16/+11). So there's going to be more needed. 1. Bless (+1 morale bonus to hit and to fear saves) and a Bard to Inspire Courage (+1 morale bonus to hit and damage) - yes the to hit bonuses don't stack - but if one of the benefits is lost, at least you still have the other. 2. Slow - by the time my character has gathered his army, he will likely have 3rd level spells and one of the first spells he will choose is Slow. Since Slow is a will save, and the giants only have a +4 to their saves, I should be able to slow a good many of them down for a few rounds. 3. Glitterdust might be an option as well, as it is a will save as well, but will only be affecting 2-3 at best. However, since it has a reasonable range it should at least reduce the number of boulders being thrown. 4. Expeditious Retreat (or Charge in this case...) - this will help close the distance. At 50gp/potion, they may not be a bad idea for the initial fight and will allow the dwarves to close in with a 30ft move instead of a 15ft one. 5. Grease - using this on a giant's club or weapon when closing to melee wouldn't be a bad idea either, though I don't know how beneficial it would be since it can only affect one at a time. Another option would be to grease sections of the battlefield if the giants were approaching so they would slip and fall prone. 6. Aid - not a bad option if I can get some adepts that are at least 4th level (+1 morale bonus to hit, +1 fear saves, +1d8 temp hp). A potion of heroism would be nice, but also cost restrictive. These are just a few of the thoughts about spells that I would probably have decent access to by the time my army is brought together. Obviously Fireball and such would be available, but since I am not going to be able to employ a large staff of wizards or make a large number of relatively expensive items, I don't think they would have much of a benefit in taking down the opposing force. That being said, I certainly wouldn't turn them down if they were offered. My character will probably need to pick up a crafting feat for the purposes of putting together some of these items himself (potions of expeditious retreat sound like a good idea) - this way he can save on the cost as well. Back to the unit types, I would love to have access to a large creature or two - elephants or something that could withstand a lot of damage and also deal its own punishment - but I'm not sure of the feasibility of this (picture the oliphant). Anyway, I'm sure I'll have some more random thoughts on this - feel free to contribute if you have something worthwhile.
Gedrin 06-16-05, 04:39 PM	My main questions relate to resources. Money: How much can you spend? Time-Preperation: How much time do you have? Time-Flexibility: How much of a window, once you start your attack, to achieve victory? Recruitment Pool: Who can you recruit from? Manufacturing-Mundane: What assumptions are being made for the manufacture of arms and armor? Manufacturing-Mystical: Do you have casters that you can employ in this role? Trade: What is the status of your ability to trade for things you can't make.
TelinArtho 06-16-05, 05:06 PM	Money - currently, my bankroll is 18000gp. I do have a few magic items I could sell/trade/use if I found the right buyer/trader/user (Spiked chain +1 and +2, Huge GreatAxe +3 (Flaming), Large Chain Shirt +5). I could leverage another ~20,000gp if I decide not to give money to my fellow party members (which is not likely - but they could decide to help me in this endeavor - so I guess that is a consideration). I will also, likely, be able to get another tidy sum of money (in the order of 10kgp) from finishing my current quest. Preparation time/Flex time - here it pretty much is up to me. My character wishes to retrieve specific items that were taken from him/his party when they fought a hill giant and lost. He does however, have essentially unlimited time to prepare though. Recruitment pool - probably anyone who would be willing to do battle with hill giants. There are many large cities we travel through, and, my character (and the party) is reknowned for his work. Also, my character has recently taken on a follower to sing of his deeds (a bard obviously). Mundane items - here I'd probably have to purchase at market price. In general, I'd not be looking for things too complex/expensive for the bulk of the members of the army, just something durable and cost effective. Magical items - again, I'd probably have to either buy these in a magic shop or, more likely, get them commisioned. I do not have a group of wizards to make items for me though, and my character, a fighter 6/wizard 3/spellsword 2 does not yet have any craft feats. There is a barbarian 6/sorceress 6 in the party who does have craft wonderous item, but I don't know how much she'd be willing to sit down and craft for me. Trade - Well, I do have the items above that are available. We have earned some amount of reknown in an orcish land (where we survived a battle with the Orcish King) and have set up a trade route between that land and the country from which we were "from" (we were pretending to be emmisaries...). In our current quest, we are in the employ of a rather powerful being - and he generally provides us with all we ask for (within reason) - but also considers making things "beneath" him...
TelinArtho 06-16-05, 05:08 PM	One other note: Contacts - although we have several contacts in high positions in some countries that are relatively near where the hill giants are - in our last dealings with them, they were duped and so not very likely to help us again, unless we are willing to make some atonement...
braindead345 06-17-05, 05:03 AM	What is wrong with giving dwarves mighty composite longbows? Range attacks work wonders, especially if they are done at a faster rate than crossbows. Other things to consider: Army organization. How is the army being commanded? Is it broken down into companies? Who commands what? How and are the troops getting their supplies/rations? Calvery will be needed. Lancers and swordmen, actually give the lancers swords too-they won't have time to run back for a replacement lance.
Derren S. 06-17-05, 08:36 AM	Dwarves are good, but their slow speed offsets their AC bonus. They will be picked off at range before they can close to melee, +4Ac or not. And against most giants +4 AC doesn't help when you don't have the HP to survive a single hit. Also ranged attacks are not very effective against giants becuase with their large size you won't be able to catch many of them in an attack. Targeted attacks are probably better.
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 09:37 AM	Braindead - there is a distinct problem with hiring up a bunch of cavalry in that, right now, I don't know the lay of the land and whether it will be conducive for horse use. If it is - I will definitely get some, but the inherent problem with it is that cavalry, as a unit, is too expensive to hire, train and maintain. Compare 700gp+ for a medium cavalry unit vs. 105gp for a medium infantry. While the cavalry can do better initial damage and have a higher movement, I wouldn't be able to have enough of them to be an effective unit. There's also nothing necessarily wrong with using dwarves with mighty longbows, but why not use humans in that case? They won't need the dodge AC (or at least not as much), and can, at first level warrior, have both PBS and rapid shot. The dwarf would only be able to PBS - which for long range really is not usefull at all. Also, Mighty bows are very expensive - so I don't necessarily think that is a cost-effective idea. Also, Derren - I very much disagree with the "if they can only take 1 hit, the +4AC doesn't matter" - in this case, it very much matters. The difference between AC 18 and AC 22 against a creature that has two attacks at +16 and +11 is very big. Unfortunately, it also means that low level troops will be easily slaughtered, unless I am able to get their AC up in the 26+ range or get their HP up into the 30+ range. As to the organization, it will depend on how many units I will be able to hire and if they have similar/differing skills. For instance, for 9700gp, I can equip and hire: 10 lvl2 hvy infantry, 10 lvl2 med. infantry, 15 lvl1 med. infantry, 25 lvl1 lgt. infantry, 10 lvl2 longbowmen, 10 lvl1 longbowmen, and 10 medics (lvl1 adepts). In this case, I would probably organize it into three distinct units - the heavy infantry paired with the light and the mediums together. The longbowmen would be the third unit and the medics aren't really a unit (no combat value - but will probably stick around to help where they can). If I decided to go with a few cavalry though, the scene changes dramatically - in which case I'd have a cavalry unit, a unit of infantry and then the longbowmen. If I do get a bit more funds to work with, I obviously will be able to be more flexible with it. With an army of 100 units or less, my character and his follower will probably be the commanders on their own. If it gets much larger, I would make sure to hire appropriate infantry/cavalry/longbowmen leaders to help keep things organized. I would be supplying all supplies and rations. Lastly, each unit is given a diverse set of arms (sword, mace, dagger at least) - so even if one method fails (or is sundered) other options are available for attacking.
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 10:11 AM	Also ranged attacks are not very effective against giants becuase with their large size you won't be able to catch many of them in an attack. Targeted attacks are probably better. Not sure what you mean here - do you mean AOE ranged attacks (like fireball)? If so - I agree. In fact, when I was doing a quick look-through of spells, the one that immediately stood out was slow. Multiple targets and able to make it so the giants would get 1 attack at +14 (instead of 2 at +16/+11) and drop their AC. If my character is the caster of the spell, they would need to make a will save DC of 16 - which they will make less than half the time with their +4 to will saves.
Derren S. 06-17-05, 10:13 AM	Even with their +4 AC, a fullplate and Dex bonus dwarves will only have a AC of 23. The giants need a 7 to hit with their first attack which is rather guranteed. So it doesn't matter if their AC is 23 or 19 they will get hit and killed. And their slow speed means they suffer more attacks than other troops while advancing. Are we discussing logical D&D armies or D&D armies with the rules in mind? If it is the latter one than a army completly out of archers would be best because the 20 = hit rule. That means as long as you have enough attacks you can kill anything and 300 archers get a lot more attacks than mixed troops. And defense isn't much of a problem as all low level units die in one hit.
krichaiushii 06-17-05, 10:32 AM	Is it even worthwhile to consider giving the basic Dwarf warrior Run, and having him run across the field of battle to attack the enemy? While not the best use of a feat, in this case, it may help. Also, would it be worthwhile to commission a handful of magical Banners or Standards that have radius effects? For your Dwarves, Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat, but any of a number of spells would be worth considering. If you are willing - both cash and ruleset wise - to dip into 3rd party products, you might want to look at both Green Ronin's Hammer and Helm (http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1101) and Bad Axe Games Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4017&). I own both titles and can't recommend them enough (I like my Dwarves!). Both were printed during 3.0, so the rules match up there. While both contain the same types of information (PrCs, feats, etc.) the feats themselves bear considering - especially the Shield Wall, Lock Shields, Back-to-Back, Tandem Fighting feats found in H&H.
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 10:47 AM	I am discussing both. I want an army, that by their stats, would be able to take on a hill giant tribe. I also want one that is viable in terms of maintaining (for instance, an army of archers is very easily beaten by a group of cavalry - especially if they have access to the Protection from Arrows spell). This means that I need one for my immediate task, but also one that is versatile enough that I won't need to recruit an entirely different set of people for another task. Regarding the attack on dwarves, I don't think the situation is so bad - a dwarf in splint mail (+6), with a buckler (+1) and their dodge bonus (+4) is already at 21 AC (5 or higher on the first attack, 10 or higher on the second). However, I plan on having more infantry than giants - so they'd be able to outnumber the giants and help flank. While a single dwarf might die in one hit - we're only looking at ~20-30 giants - so maybe 10-15 dwarfs are going to die in a single round if they are all 1st level. I definetely am hoping to hire some 3rds and up, but I'm not sure of the viability of this. With a 3rd level warrior, I could have them pick up Expertise, and now the AC is a viable 24 in melee (and flanking will help offset the penalty to hit). I also plan on making use of spells from my character, my follower and from the medics to help the situation. I should have access to the Slow spell in another level; the medics have bless and the bard has spells in addition to the singing ability. While it may not be viable to increase the ac of my army up to a reasonable level, I might be able to increase it a little while decreasing the giants' some. Picture AC 22 or AC 23 vs +14/+9. The situation is already getting brighter. Using expendable magic (potions) on the infantry is an expensive proposition, but perhaps a necessary one in light of the giants. A potion of protection from evil (+2 ac for 1 min) would work wonders at 50gp/potion (if my character picks up brew potion, he could even make them for 25gp/potion. Even a potion of barkskin isn't completely out of the question at 300gp/potion (+3 ac for 30 min). Speaking of protection from evil - magic circle might even be a better option if my bard picks up that spell (if he doesn't have it already) - effectively covering a few people all at the same time and a longer duration.
Derren S. 06-17-05, 10:56 AM	When you are counting that the dwarves are killing in mass, which they will, AC 23 or 18, then why spend much ressources to protect them? Again non dwarves can close to the giants much sooner and so have less losses through stones than dwarves even without the +4 Dodge bonus. Also masses of archer get much more attacks on the enemy which never hurts because of the 20 and critical mechanic and can't be cleaved, so each giant can only kill one archer with a stone while they can cleave through close combatants killing 4 of them in the worst case. Actually, as archers dwarves would be good because the ranged attack bonus of Giants is only +8. A +4 dodge bonus here will help much more than in close combat. And cavalry in D&D are not a big threat to archers. You can't protect the rider and the mount with Protection from Arrows. Also a simple magic weapon spell on the arrows will nullfy this spell.
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 11:03 AM	krichaiushii - some excellent points to consider. Banners or standards would probably be a better method (and just plain out cool...). Against more magically oriented foes (who are likely to deduce the banner is magical) this might not be as effective - but against the giants it might just be something to consider. I'm not sure what Longstrider is, but I assume it is a speed affecting thing - which couldn't hurt. As to whether the Run feat would be worthwhile, I'd say unlikely. Although the benefit from run is apparent (because I'm not dealing with any Dex bonus or a very small one anyway), I'd much rather have a feat that is more applicable once combat is joined. At the moment, I'm preferring Quickdraw because it enables the switching of weapons in a quick manner - but Expertise or Dodge are also worthwhile in this scenario (in that I am generally looking to improve the infantry's AC. I haven't heard of either book, but I'll probably give them a look through (took a look at the preview for Hammer and Helm already, but it didn't have much to tell me...). I'm not sure about including 3rd party stuff in that it really only muddies the water, but I'm not opposed to it either.
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 11:16 AM	Actually, as archers dwarves would be good because the ranged attack bonus of Giants is only +8. A +4 dodge bonus here will help much more than in close combat. I agree that the dodge bonus is still useful in the dwarf archer scenario, but the dwarven archer won't have the benefit of using Rapid shot either (double the attacks with the same number of archers). If I was able to get a good number of 3rd level dwarven warriors as archers - they would quickly be of more use than the human variety. And cavalry in D&D are not a big threat to archers. You can't protect the rider and the mount with Protection from Arrows. Also a simple magic weapon spell on the arrows will nullfy this spell. Actually, on this I disagree. A 1st level cavalry unit of 30 would be able to close in on a unit of equal level archers very quickly. With the mount running, the archers get a -2 to hit (though the mount and rider do not get dex to AC). A Heavy Warhorse in medium barding would be closing in at 140ft/round, in light barding at 200ft/round and a light warhorse with light barding would be closing in at 260ft/round. In my opinion, it is unlikely the archers would be able to attack them at a range greater than 600ft (due to terrain being natural cover and concealment - though depending on the standpoint of the archers, this is not a guarantee). While the archers might get 2 rounds before the cavalry close, once the cavalry does close it will make mince meat of them.
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 12:01 PM	Here's an idea. I still need to work out the cost - but let me know what you think (of course it occurs to me that something like this is probably included in the Heroes of Battle, Miniatures Handbook or something else - if that is the case, please let me know...) War Banners These magical standards or banners are often brought out during war time in an effort to bolster the abilities of the normal troops. They usually display the colors, insignia or mark of the lord under which it was created and sports a variety of abilities, depending on the kind of war banner created. The main problem with war banners is they are fragile, being constructed out of expensive cloth and rather fragile wood. As such, it is sometimes made out of other materials in order to improve its ability to become a target by enemy spellcasters or attackers. War banners are command-word activated by the wielder, but once activated benefit an area of allies to the banner. Each banner has only one ability. Some common abilities might be: 1. War Banner of Morale (as per Bless spell) (+1 morale bonus to hit, +1 bonus to fear saves) 2. War Banner of Protection (+1 deflection AC) 3. War Banner of Offense (+1 to hit and damage) 4. War Banner of Resistance (+1 to all saves or +2 Fortitude, Reflex or Will) War banners typically can be activated a single time per day and function for one hour from activation. They also typically affect allied troops in a 50ft radius. War banners are the enchanted standards that are hung from wooden stands or poles. Breaking the pole or the stand will not affect the banner, but cutting or damaging the cloth will. The banner has 2hp, but is unaffected by bludgeoning damage, takes 1/2 damage from piercing weapons and resists damage by weapons that are not at least +1 (DR 10/+1). It also is resistant to fire, cold, electricity and acid (Resistance 20), and is unaffected by sonic attacks. The person holding the standard, can do so in one hand, but is awkward from it, and suffers a -2 to hit when attacking with his weapon. The holder of the standard cannot benefit from a shield on the arm which is holding the standard. The standard's pole usually comes to a point at the bottom, so the holder may thrust it into the ground as a standard action (Strength check DC 10 (soft ground), DC 15 (rocky ground), or higher if tougher ground). Retrieving it is a standard action as well (Strength DC is half that of putting it into the ground). Caster Level: 3rd Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Bless (for Morale) or Magic Weapon (for Offense) or Mage Armor or Shield or Shield of Faith (for Protection) or Endure Elements (for Resistance) Market Cost: 500gp (Morale or Resistance), 1000gp (Protection or Offense) plus 500gp for the manufacture of the standard itself (fine cloth and treatment). Cost to Create: 750gp + 20xp (Morale or Resistance), 1000gp + 40xp (Protection or Offense). Since there is no equivalent item that I know of and the effects don't exactly mimic a spell (other than the bless ability), I'm going to model it after a 1 use per day item with a 1st level spell at 1st caster level. This isn't meant to be a decisive cost - but a starting point (so don't take it that I think it will cost this much in reality - I still need to think it through).
Derren S. 06-17-05, 01:00 PM	When the archers have trouble hitting the cavalry because of terrain then the cavalry has even more problems.They are only usefull on a free field and there the archers have a clear line of fire. A band of archers would get 3-4 shots (double with rapid shot) off at the cavalry before they can close in. And even when they are in close combat, archers can still take a 5 ft step back and shoot the mount or the rider full with arrows. Also who says that they have to be bad in close combat? Warriors can wield a bow and a sword equally good. Just give them a shortsword and the best light armor (or even medium ones) and they are a rather good in close combat. Sure they lack feats and some points of strength, but they are still good enough to not be slaughtered in close combat and to kill of the weakened cavalry when they arrive. (Probably only numbering half as many people as when they started the charge) Back to the actual problem, don't forget that the archers have a way higher range than the giants. Another advantage of a pure archer band.
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 01:05 PM	I posted the War Banners item to the Magic and Spells board for advice over there: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=448814
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 01:16 PM	Derren S. - The argument between archers and cavalry is probably best left for another day (as it really depends on a lot of different factors we can't address here). If it makes you feel better, I will concede the issue to you, even though I don't necessarily agree. Regarding whether archers have a "way higher range" than a giant, I don't know that I can agree there. I believe (and I just checked the 3.0 SRD and it doesn't seem to be mentioned... so this is from memory) that giants have a range increment of 120ft with their rocks. If that is the case, they have a max range of 600ft; compared to a max range of 1000ft with a longbowman (without far shot). The longbowmen however will not be very effective at all beyond 600ft unless they are high level though - 100 archers with longbows deal ~25 damage per round against AC20 with an attack bonus of 0 (so only hitting on a natural 20). Also, since I am attacking the giants, it is likely that they will have benefits of cover in some form (at the very least in the forms of their homes, whether caves or buildings, if not from terrain features). This is also why I am not necessarily interested in getting much in the way of cavalry, since their ability to charge will likely be countered by the same features.
ashcat_lt 06-17-05, 04:20 PM	i think you're looking at the whole problem the wrong way. Perhaps this was covered in one of your previous posts, if so I'm sorry. From what you've said, you want to retrieve some items that were stolen from your party by the hill giant. If this is in fact your objective then I believe your best, most cost effective, option is to forgo the frontal assault with all the dwarvish archers and cavalry units which may or may not be useful and try a stealth maneuver using yourself and the rest of your party. In general, these are exactly the sorts of things that well constructed D&D parties are good at. Sneak into the lair of some big mean monster and retrieve something valuable. I guess having an army of dwarvish cannon fodder attacking their home could act as a good distraction while you sneak in the back door, but it sure is expensive. What exactly is the market price of these items you're trying to retrieve? I understand that revenge can be priceless, sometimes. Okay, so you still want an army? Go ahead and get those dwarves, put them in the most expensive armor you can find, and make sure they have weapons that will overcome the DR. But for hecksake don't send them running on their stubby little legs across a wide open field with boulders raining down all around them! Can you devise a way to keep them underground until they are safely behind enemy lines? Check to cost on tunnel construction or teams of sappers/engineers versus the cost of cavalry. On to the topic of cavalry. You need to know the terrain you are going into. Let me say that again. You NEED to know the terrain you are going into. Until you've done some basic reconaissance (a perfect job for you and your party) you really shouldn't be trying to solidify any type of strategic planning. But then, perhaps aerial cavalry would suit you better in the long run anyway. It will be more expensive to put people on hippogriffs than on horses, but you could get away with a smaller force. They would be more effective in more types of situations. If you can get your hands on some intelligent flying creatures you'd be even better off. As for ranged attacks and area effects: I haven't heard anything about seige weapons. Many of these can be equipped to do area effects at long range. Invest money in alchemists fire rather than fireballs. Think about peppering some PC classes in as well. Don't think in terms of whole units of clerics or paladins or what have you. Think about a group of warriors commanded by a marshall or bard. It would be ideal if you could afford to have a couple of 7th level wizards standing amongst your archers to cast flame arrows, maybe a truestrike here and there. I'm not sure that adding a medic to your basic groups is a good idea. If your guys are dead after one hit, no number of cure spells is really going to make a difference. Keep a couple of clerics and some adepts or experts with maxed out heal ranks out of range to tend any nolethal casualties as soon as they can be evacuated. Just some things I thought you might consider.
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 05:21 PM	Trying to figure out what kind of force will be necessary: Using a 2nd lvl dwarf warrior with a 16con, against a hill giant with +16/+11 attacks, we can find the following: 1. The hill giant will hit with its first attack against AC 23 70% of the time. Of the times it hits and criticals - it is going to kill the dwarf (3.5% overall). Of the times it hits and does not critical - it is going to kill the dwarf 24% of the time. Overall, the hill giant will kill a dwarf on its first attack 27.46% of the time. 2. On its second attack, the hill giant will hit 45% of the time. Of the times it hits with the first attack and hits with the second attack, the dwarf will die. Of the times it misses with its first attack, and criticals with the second, the dwarf will die (2.25%). Of the times it misses with the first attack, and hits (but does not critical), it will kill the dwarf 36% of the time. Overall for the second attack, the hill giant will kill a dwarf 17.65% of the time. 3. Between the two attack, the giant will kill a dwarf 27.46% of the time with just its first attack. Since (30%+42.54%) 72.54% of the time, the giant will not kill on the first attack, then the giant will make the second attack and hit the dwarf 45% of the time. Of these times, 26.39% of the time the giant will connect for a second hit and kill the dwarf; 18.61% of the time it will connect for the first time and kill the dwarf 36% of these times. 4. SO (getting to the point), the giant will kill a dwarf in its first or second attack 27.46% + 26.39% + 6.7% or 55.55% of the time. What does this mean? Well against 30 giants, if they are able to full attack my dwarves, they will kill 15 of them in the first full round. When I said it would take a lot of dwarves - I wasn't kidding...
Ragey 06-17-05, 05:30 PM	Must the attack be in such a direct way? Is there no way to change the tide in your favor? Does the village have a well or some sort of foundation to drink from? Could you hire a Rogue to slip in and poison it? Could you set traps on the battlefield before the battle started? Could you not change the fact your using Dwarves and go for a more convert ending to the village? Could you hire a halfbreed of somekind to assist your troops? Your sending many of your troops to their damnation, where as if you send a few, and get a few trump cards, you could better yourself off. How about using the terrain against them? Do you have any contacts with any Druids or natural creatures? I seem to be concentrating on rushing head first and clashing, but there must be another route you can take.
TelinArtho 06-17-05, 05:37 PM	ashcat_lt - well, I never said my party was well balanced - because it truly isn't - and stealth definitely is not our strong suit. However, while my party and I want to recover the items, the main goal is to seek the giant out because he has done our characters harm in a number of ways - so revenge I guess is the name of the game. When it comes down to it, this is truly the quest that my character wants to pursue. Eventually, he wants to take control of a castle and land and such (basically "earn" his way into landownership and lordship). However, before he gets there, he feels the need to teach the hill giant a lesson. About reconnaisance, I know that is of utmost importance and it will be done before I build the army. Right now, I am just speculating because there is a lot of time between adventures (real time not game time). Also, I can't do the reconnaisance yet because we are still involved with another quest, though that task will be done soon. I've been trying to avoid using higher levels and such to compensate for the strength of the hill giants - which is a big problem. I know I would have no problem taking care of them with a unit of 100 foot soldiers of level 4 or 5 and 50 archers of level 3 or 4 - all Fighters - not warriors. However, the feasibility of this is pretty low, and then there's that whole thing about maintaining the army over the long term. Remember that while this is my immediate task that I wish to prepare for, my character does have other plans for the army. This is actually the main reason I'm a little wary of having even a large portion of the army be dwarves. Anyway, I don't think there's going to be the need to dash across open land to attack them - but that will be revealed when we get to the point of reconnaisance. Aerial cavalry would be nice - but at the same time - they are not feasible. My limited bankroll would not be able to afford even a dozen of them (by my guess anyway - how much does a trained hippogriff cost anyway?). Siege weapons are an option to some extent, but again - without knowing the lay of the land, may be tough to use. Catapults though may not be the greatest here - since I'd have to handle aiming which takes several minutes in game time - in that time - the battle could well be over... As to whether the medics are necessary - again, against the giants, this may not be much of an issue, but in the other scenarios that I am going to do later - they very well could be. Lastly, although I almost always mention the hill giants as an entity to be dealt with - don't forget that they will likely have some lesser underlings to deal with, so even the weak soldier can have a chance at a kill or two, or for that matter taking a hit or two... /d
Derren S. 06-17-05, 05:40 PM	What other plans do you have for the army? And again, I advise to make a majority of the force archers (Switching the numbers you gave around so 100 archers, 50 melee combatants) especially when you intend to garrison a castle with them.
krichaiushii 06-17-05, 07:14 PM	Some assorted thoughts and comments for you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the 3.5 SRD: Longstrider Transmutation Level: Drd 1, Rgr 1, Travel 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 hour/level (D) This spell increases your base land speed by 10 feet. (This adjustment counts as an enhancement bonus.) It has no effect on other modes of movement, such as burrow, climb, fly, or swim. Material Component: A pinch of dirt. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arming your melee guys with either javelins or short spears - both can be thrown while advancing, then melee weapons drawn for the melee - may be the most cost effective option. Crossbows/comp short bows can be used in garrison for defense. When battle is finally joined, don't forget about the Aid Another action and flanking, though to make them work entails encircling giants, which may be dangerous if they have Cleave or Great Cleave as feats. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is it feasible to trade your huge and large size magic items to Stone or Fire Giant mercenaries for some temporary assistance against the Hill Giants? Is it possible to use Diplomacy to convince Dwarves to join your anti-giant cause, perhaps at a discount rate. Or perhaps convince them of the "rightness" of it all. And if this particular giant has annoyed you, is it not possible that he has other enemies that might be interested in seeing him fall/be humbled? Seek them out and try to get assistance (cash/troop/crafting/casting/whatever) from them. Are there any particular anti-giant organizations in this campaign world that might be convinced to assist your cause? Or perhaps a patron that is willing to have you as a vassal on the giant's land, so may provide you some support. Even members of a particularly warlike deity may be interested in helping out, to the glory of war and all that rubbish. I'm thinking the Figurines of Wondrous Power: Marble Elephant or the Ivory Goats (particularly Travail and Terror) might help in the large creature department - both items are very expensive, however. Not as expensive as an Efreeti Bottle or the elemental summoning wondrous items (Stone, Censer, Brazier, Bowl), but expensive, nonetheless. Perhaps these items might be worth questing for? Or hiring someone to use theirs for a bit? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps hiring a summoner of some sort would work better (with loot from victory being the lion's share of his pay). Preferably one that can cast Summon Monster IV or higher - so you can get multiple Celestial Bison (holy cow!); its worth it for the pun alone, but the trample damage a herd of bison do (not to mention the smite evil ability the celestial ones have) can be substantial. From the (3.5) SRD: BISON Large Animal Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 13 (–1 size, +4 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 13 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13 Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9) Full Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Stampede Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +1 Abilities: Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4 Skills: Listen +7, Spot +5 Feats: Alertness, Endurance Environment: Temperate plains Organization: Solitary or herd (6–30) Challenge Rating: 2 Advancement: 6–7 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: — These herd animals can be aggressive when protecting young and during the mating season, but they generally prefer flight to fighting. A bison stands more than 6 feet tall at the shoulder and is 9 to 12 feet long. It weigh 1,800 to 2,400 pounds. The bison’s statistics can be used for almost any large herd animal. Combat Stampede (Ex): A frightened herd of bison flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Large size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five bison in the herd (Reflex DC 18 half ). The save DC is Strength-based. Being celestial gains it the following perks: Acid, Cold, Electricity Resistance 5 DR 5/magic SR 10 Darkvision 60' Smite Evil (Su): Once per day a celestial creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe. And if the caster has the feat Augment Summoning, the bison you conjure with any summon spell gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it, increasing the HP, Attack Bonus, Damage, and Stampede save. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Certain religions may be willing to use Planar Ally to call up some help for you - though it may be costly (quest wise, of course). Planar Binding might work, but if the Bound creature escapes, you could be in trouble. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Would your wizard be willing to scribe scrolls of unknown spells for the sorcerer as pay/assistance in crafting items for you?
TelinArtho 06-18-05, 12:38 AM	krichaiushii - well, you certainly have a lot of content there, unfortunately, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to respond to (like I said - adventures are widely spaced, so I have time to think about it - so it might be quite a while before I can answer fully... First of all, thanks for the info on Longstrider. We're using 3.0 - so that explains why I didn't know about it. Regarding my chosen armament - I might refer you to my previous thread on the makeup of the army. To provide a quick summary, each unit was afforded at least some sort of sword, mace and dagger. Cavalry were given lances (light cavalry had short bows), Infantry had glaives (light infantry had longspears) and 2 javelins each. Even longbowmen had short swords, maces and daggers to go along with their long bows. In terms of tactics, I think they will be ironed out once I have more info about just how big the tribe is, what supporting armaments they have and what kind of structures they have. I will most definitely take use of aid another and especially flanking if at all possible. Is it feasible to trade your huge and large size magic items to Stone or Fire Giant mercenaries for some temporary assistance against the Hill Giants? This is definitely something I'm going to look into - though an evil one is not one I'm looking for, so I'm not sure that a fire giant will happen. Other possibilities that I'm thinking about are the smaller giants - Firbolg, etc or even a half-ogre or half-giant that might want to earn some reknown. It might not be feasible - but I just don't know yet. I'm not sure that getting my army at a "discount rate" will be much help - since I don't want to disband it after the battle. However, getting equipment at a discount rate would definitely be preferable. I've got a dwarven bard to help build my reputation a little, which should help on all fronts, but I'm simply not expecting anything close to a "free ride" - so we'll have to see how things go. The giant could certainly have enemies, but my character does not know about them yet. This will hopefully be revealed when I get some time to investigate the area. Same goes for anti-giant groups (though I'd be fine with a general use of giant-slayers, I think I'd rather have my own group... having a few though definitely couldn't hurt...). I do hope to herald under the support of a good-aligned war god, if only to have a certain religious following to help muster the troops (in addition to the bard). At this point though, I don't have any info on it though. Its funny that you mention the expensive items that might help - the Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals is on my short list of "man I wish I had one..." Although those items are probably too expensive to purchase (it would seriously hamper my numbers), if I happen upon one - it could definitely be put to use. I'm not sure about the viability of having multiple high-level casters working for me - though I still believe it would be cost prohibitive to have them over the long term. If I was going to go the summoner route though - you can bet that I'd search for one with augment summoning as a feat (not sure how to express it in game terms though...). My character is actually extremely distrustful of the outsiders that he's encountered (even the good ones coincidentally), so I doubt he'd be willing to enter into an agreement with one to perform a service. Its an outside shot, but he'd much rather have them as summoned creatures that go away once the spell runs out or they die... In terms of the sorcerer and I working together - she doesn't particularly need scrolls, but at the same time, she'd probably help me out (maybe not for cost, but at a slight discount). The biggest problem though is finding the items that would be useful for an army through a wondrous item (as that and scribe scroll are our only 2 craft feats). The banner described above though, if DM approved might be on my list... Derren - currently my main 2 ideas are to take care of the giants and then get a keep or castle. Other things on my list are a little bit more far fetched - a strange beholder who let us live once - but who also took a lot of my items for payment of letting us go and defamed us in front of others. He also has other items of interest to us for another quest. The other quest has to do with a "few" liches and their underlings... Unfortunately, these other quests are definitely not suitable for an army - so I'm still not sure what to do about them... My character would also like to get into a state where he will be protected and comfortable. Also, although my character is planning on a lot of different things, in all likelihood the campaign will retire before he gets to everything he wants to do. I'm trying to think of things for him to do though (so he doesn't get bored in retirement).
Derren S. 06-18-05, 03:06 AM	Derren - currently my main 2 ideas are to take care of the giants and then get a keep or castle. Other things on my list are a little bit more far fetched - a strange beholder who let us live once - but who also took a lot of my items for payment of letting us go and defamed us in front of others. He also has other items of interest to us for another quest. The other quest has to do with a "few" liches and their underlings... Everything except the lich just scream for archers. With archers you can decimate the enemy even before you tear down the gate, a stage where you will have the highest losses). Also when defending a keep archers can fire from the saftey of the walls and dont have to wait till the enemeis come to them. And against a flying beholder melee units are rather useless. A band of archers kan kill a beholder rather quickly.