Post/Author/DateTime	Post
codexia 05-25-05, 03:58 PM	I don't want to sound like i'm whining...although I will probobly come off that way, but what do you do when the rest of a group your playing with isn't as creative as one of the players? Basicly, our DM was running a game. Now, i'm not trying to say the group is stupid (far from it) but one of the players happens to work in a med lab and is quite possably the smartest person i've ever met. He likes to play Neutral Evil Clerics...and he likes to do incredibly horrible things which the DM seems fine letting him get away with. He robs the party blind in dungeons since he always sneaks off to the loot while were fighting (afterall, the cleric is supposed to stay in the back when hes the primary healer, no reason for him to be up with us. He even took that ranged touch metamagic feat (and can use it thanks to divine metamagic) so that he has no reason to have to be near us). He has an elemental domain and extra turning feats if your wondering how he can use metamagic through an entire battle, so he has lots of turning attemps. When not in battle, he is walking around in the cities manipulating everything. From bribing leaders to bribing colloseum matches to make sure things go in his favor and he gets filthy rich (were talking millions of gold here). He does all sorts of stuff that the DM sees no problem with letting him do. Like I said, it sounds like whining...but you would think the DM would limit what he can do to the party and to the cities. Were not stupid, but this guy is a bloody genius, and he definately uses it to his advantage. The problem is...we only get the magical loot HE wants us to get, since he takes everything and ID's it in town where we can't see. Then he just walks over and hands us things saying he found stuff while we were fighting and picked it up, and of course, since we have to stay in character, nobody suspects hes holding out on us...he has a ring that stops us from detecting his alignment -_- so we don't even know he's evil. It's just incredibly frustrating to go through an adventure, come out with a couple +1 items, MAYBE a +2 if hes feeling generous, and then leave a city with him as well equipped as humanly possable because he found a way to rig the elections or colloseum battles to make a fortune. GAH >_< Why is the DM letting him get away with all this crap? And I did pull the DM aside to ask him just that...he said any of us could to it also, but the fact is, while were all smart, none of us have any clue how hes doing it, and, to be honest, as creative as we are, we cant think of the way to do it. He always takes the DM out of the room to talk to him about his plots so we never know what were missing :( Kinda tired of being in a group where we get screwed left and right...
snowlynx 05-25-05, 04:31 PM	Talk nicely to the player. Tell him you feel like his character is NOT working with the group, and that it's frustrating you (and the other players.) Tell him this sort of character vs. character game is not your sort of thing. (Talk to the other players beforehand too to get an idea of if they are as aggravated as you are.) Your fellow player might understand and he might not, but if he does understand, you'll have an easy solution which doesn't require the DM slapping the player on the wrist again and again. My guess is, this sort of thing is more easily solved by trying to convince the player to cooperate then it is in-game or using the Mighty DM punishment. It might mean he has to make a new character, or maybe he has a better idea for making his character help out the group instead of secretly working against them.
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 04:46 PM	Try and expose him to the Town Officials, or kill him in his sleep. Or while your fighting, all of you break from the combat and fall back to him because the monsters are too "hard", forcing him to engage with them. Or have the party institute a new rule that no loot is to be collected until after the battle, and that each member must see all the items before anything is done, and if a member is found with items that no one had seen before, that person gets kicked from the party, and can ave fun by themself. Or you could just confront him about it, and tell him it is making the game alot less fun for the rest of you, if he is constantly hording all the loot.
Derren S. 05-25-05, 04:50 PM	From what you wrote it also seems to me that the DM plays into his hand by allowing it all to happen. You can't simply make millions of gp by bribing someone here and there except the DM likes you very much and turns two blind eyes.
codexia 05-25-05, 04:59 PM	I've talked to the player about it before, he always just shrugs it off as being in character and then ignores the arguments. As for making millions, the way he manages that (or so weve been told) is that he bribes officials to turn their heads, then goes to the colloseum and bribes the officials there. They set up a few rigged battles, and he gets a percentage of the profits the colloseum makes. Generally, a fortune. The DM insists that hes not giving anything away for free, that he's using his brain to get rich quick. Unfortunately -_- his get rich quick schemes are making things suck for the party. We sit around for an hour or so while they leave the room and he runs rampant through the city getting crap. Boring...not to mention our lack of payout since the party only gets minimal loot with the sticky fingered cleric. The thing is, in character, he IS doing things right, for his character. But holy crap is the campaign getting tedious. Oh, and I forgot to mention his other job -_- he aparently steals souls using some gemmed knife on willing victims, plane shifts to the lower planes, and trades said souls for some sort of drug...I forget exactly what it is, I just know it sells between 2-5k per ounce in the prime material plane. >_< I don't want to leave the group (this is the only group in the area, and i'm not driving 45 minutes just to play a game) but it would really be nice if he would calm down with the evil crap and screwing the party just a little...he just doesn't seem to care at all that he's ruining the game for everybody else. And of course, he has the idea that he's better then us because he's smarter, so he has every right to use said smarts to get anything he wants in the game, regardless of what the players think. The DM doesn't want to just kick him out of the game, since the guy is the next propspective GM (and regardless of how horrible a player he is, hes a great DM), so he obviously doesnt want to next DM to have a grudge. Just no clue what to do now :(
GDwarf 05-25-05, 05:09 PM	A DMs job is to make the game as fun as possible for all the players. I'd confront your DM with the fact that although this guy may have to pay some gold in bribes and such, he is ruining the game for everyone else, and if this goes on for long enough eventually he'll be DMing a group of one Evil Cleric, and all of 0 other people, not much fun. Be polite, and explain your point of view (You play DnD for fun, not so that you can sit around in his house doing nothing as the Cleric makes millions of Platinum) and I'd even say that you'd be fine if the Cleric did the same things, just less so. So no going to other planes, no stealing souls, bribing limited to once a (IG) month or so (Maybe a year) and allowing party members at least a decent share of the loot. DnD is supposed to be fun for all, not a way for a smart guy to go on power trips.
UltimateReality 05-25-05, 05:13 PM	You can't simply make millions of gp by bribing someone here and there except the DM likes you very much and turns two blind eyes.No, but if you bribe the officials to let the guy you want win the gladiatorial match, and then you bet a boatload of money on the guy...rinse and repeat, keep moving from town to town so you don't get caught, and don't show off your wealth too much... EDIT: to the OP: start matching his schemes. Seriously. If he's going to take the DM out of the room for an hour, you guys need to show him how disruptive his behaviour's being. For someone who's so smart, he sure doesn't show a lot of social graces or consideration for those around him. Sometimes the more oblivious/obtuse need to be shown by example... If you want some good rip-off schemes, I can provide some ideas. We once had a campaign where basically the DM let us go nuts that way...we did some craaaazy nasty stuff. If you give me some idea of the setting and town you're based in, I can go off that. What level/class/race/alignment/wealth are you and what's your party makeup?
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 05:13 PM	Use his bribes against him, try and counter-bribe the officials. Or even better, leave the city on an adventure when he goes out to bribe the officials. Tell the DM ahead of time in secret that as soon as he heads off, the rest of the party leaves on the next adventure. When he asks what is up, just be like "Everyone else knew we were leaving then, you decided not to show, so thats your problem."
codexia 05-25-05, 05:17 PM	Actually, we tried leaving him behind before...he just used his fortune to pay for a scry, then a teleport and popped right in with us. We sure as heck, thanks to him, don't have the money to pay for anti-scrying spells. I think i'm just gonna tell the DM if it doesn't change, i'm leaving...as much as I REALLY don't want to do it, I could probobly have more fun with an MMO then sitting there with nothing to do watching him get rich. Anyway, thanks for the advice guys/gals
JadeSpider9643 05-25-05, 05:19 PM	Well the PLAYER might be extremely smart....but what's the CHARACTER's intelligence? He's a cleric so I'm assuming he has good wisdom, but if he's gonna create his own conspiracy he better have a high Intelligence. (17+ imo) If he doesn't then talk to the DM about "now just how did that 9 Int cleric come up with that whole idea anyway?"
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 05:20 PM	Have the rest of the players, including yourself, all confront him ooc, and let him know that he is ruining the game for all of the players, and tell him that if he doesn't feel like stopping, then he can leave the group.
Fallen_Universe 05-25-05, 05:23 PM	He always takes the DM out of the room to talk to him about his plots so we never know what were missing :( Maybe he gives the DM a blowjob for an ingame fortune :D Seriously, there is something wrong with the DM if he lets the cleric get away with millions of bucks so you look, in comparison to him, like stupid hobos. You should ask the DM to not let him be able to get as much money as he does if it destroys the fun of playing D&D for you and the other players.
HappyDragon 05-25-05, 05:29 PM	A few questions..... 1. What alignment is the rest of the group? 2. Has the character in question EVER been caught with his hand in the cookie jar so to speak? Either by NPC's or PC's in game. 3. What type of campaign did the DM agree to let this be when you all sat down at the table. I don't want to say too much till some of these questions are answered just to have a better idea of the enviroment you're playing in. Right now though I'd be pretty annoyed at the DM and this player, but mostly at the DM.....He takes the said player aside for an hour at a time! leaving you guys to twiddle your thumbs, especially when you yourself have a 45 minute ride to play....that's alot of time wasted for nothing. Alhough you COULD always take that hour they spend scheming in secret to come up with schemes of your own:schemes: But right now it cerainly does not sound like a very pleasant gaming enviroment. Getting everybody together and talking about it may help, but it's hard to say with certain personalities.....Do the rest of the players have the same problem?
keyunp 05-25-05, 05:30 PM	Talk to the rest of the players and get them to follow the same plan. Have each player come up with a list of activities that they wnat to do with the DM in private. Don't try and keep up with him, just normal stuff (see girl friend, go shopping, research, etc) Just do it alone with the DM. If there is 4 other players and you each take at least 1/2 an hour, then he'll be sitting by himself for over 2 hours. If he's going to be doing stuff on the sidelines that doesn't have anything to do with the group's adventure, tell him to stay late or come early, don't take time away from the group.
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 05:32 PM	You ofcourse could go in and talk to the DM in secret, with the rest of the party, leave the problem player out, and just spend the whole session doing what you want to without the cleric. And if he is like, I go and pay for scry, just be like "Its not your turn yet".
yonman 05-25-05, 05:51 PM	Um, if you really don't like the way the party is playing together or you have a problem with one of the characters, you could always leave.
SamualT Barronsword 05-25-05, 06:16 PM	How about, next time the cleric tries to go off by himself with the DM, everyone else in the party shouts out, "I go with the cleric". If he says something to the effect of, 'No you can't, I'm going off alone', ask him how he is going to do that with everyone else in the party following after him wherever he goes. Force the DM to play out the cleric trying to escape from the other PC's as they try to follow him and (if he escapes), track him down. That might be fun.
codexia 05-25-05, 06:26 PM	His character has an intelligence of 22 (thanks to a necklace if intelligence +4) As I said, we've all confronted him before, he refuses to give a rats butt. (evil things being censored) I highly dought theres a BJ involved in the process o.o at least I hope not. But believe me, the guy knows he's making it hard on the rest of us, we've told him, he just doesn't care, he wants his character to play out EXACTLY as he planned him to. 1: Lawful Evil, Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, Neutral Good 2: No, he never got caught, by anybody. To many mind effecting spells -_- 3: Um...a normal campaign? Not quite sure what you mean by that. None of the other players have a huge problem with it, but they are definately starting to get annoyed. Everybody else gets their things done in town within 15-20 minutes...like it should be >.> so we can move on, lol. I've already considered leaving. Hunting him around the town sounds like fun actually XD
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 06:29 PM	You can also try and set a time limit on how long one can speak to the DM one on one in private, this can help speed things up and put a damper on his plans. But the chasing him around town sounds like alot of fun, one it will get everyone involved when he would normally be just talking with the DM, and two it will prevent him from caring out his plans.
Enslaved DM 05-25-05, 06:40 PM	Your characters aren't morons. They must have figured out that he's stealing loot. Let him adventure with you and then kill him in his sleep.
Dungeon Master 05-25-05, 07:01 PM	I fail to see why people are willing to take so much crap from bad players/DMs... you are letting this player walk all over you. I gather from your posts that he cannot be reasoned with, but what about the DM? Surely he has everyone's best interests in mind (ok, so maybe he doesn't). One possibility is that the DM thoroughly enjoys these "side adventures" with the player, maybe even more than he enjoys the regular gaming session. IF this is the case, you are in a real tight bind. Here are some suggestions: 1. Ask the other players if they feel the same way as you do. If they don't, I suggest you leave the group. If they do, you have power in numbers. If neccesary, issue an ultimatum (this tends to work best if there's at least one other person in your group who can DM). 2. Talk to the DM. Ask him to either a) DM the other character's "side adventures" on his own time (not group time), or b) remove the character from the group and DM him as a solo campaign 3. Utilize the resources of the collective genius on this board to utterly annhilate the character's best plans. There are some very smart people here with a firm grasp on the rules of the game. Not only will they find a way for you to kill the problem PC, they can make his life a living hell before killing him.
codexia 05-25-05, 07:18 PM	Actually, in-game, our characters have no clue he's stealing. He has yet to fail his checks to avoid our notice, and since he is almost always invisable thanks to a ring...we just don't notice him doing anything. (Probobly should have mentioned that ring earlier, but it didnt seem important). As for why I put up with crap, its the closest DM -_- i've put up fliers in stores before, nobody ever responds, i'm in a fairly dry area for gaming unfortunately, or so it seems. And we've talked to the DM...his only answer is, always, catch him in game like you should, don't bother me out of game with something that bothers you in game. If the player is whose bothering you, have your characters do something about it. >_< we WOULD if we could catch his ass
Herald@Large 05-25-05, 07:27 PM	The next time he and the DM leave the room to discuss plans, you and the other players pack up your books and dice and leave the building. Don't necessarily go home, just head across the street and get yourself a pizza or something. When the two plotters come back to an empty room and table, maybe that will get the message across. If the DM gets mad, tell him "We came to play, not sit around twiddling our thumbs."
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 07:32 PM	Ok, if he runs off follow him. If he uses his ring, then ignore him and go about what you want to do, try and take up the DM's time with your own plans, thus trying to limit what he can do, and the time in which he can do it. When he re-appears, present him with the in-game ultimatum, tell him the party is no longer going to put up with him running off to different places, and that if he continue's it, he is out of the party. This is when he may try to charm you with spells, which will be to your advantage, because beofre hand have the members who aren't doing the talking ready to attack should he try and cast a spell, after he casts the spell, all of you can engage him because of his hostile act, and you can more than likely wipe the floor with him.
Siduakal 05-25-05, 07:32 PM	Oddly enough, the more intelligent are.. The more often simple things escape your grasp. Not because you don't understand them, but because you find the way you're explained to be too easy and you end up doing it wrong because you are sure the easy way is wrong. I've got a friend IRL who does it all the time, but the girls bright as can be. I, personally, think he's doing great. I mean, he's setting it up quite well. My campaign has things like this happen, but OOC the party knows. Which makes it a TAD hard to pull off. I've tricked the other player in a 2 mans group number one left hand man of his company into sneaking into his office and giving me some information I'm not supposed to have. Next time, spend a LOT of time in the arena. But.. your DM may just be going in the other room to BS and goof and decide how much to give him in gold if they are good buddies. HOWEVER.. Ignore posts like this. Ok, if he runs off follow him. If he uses his ring, then ignore him and go about what you want to do, try and take up the DM's time with your own plans, thus trying to limit what he can do, and the time in which he can do it. Your characters aren't morons. They must have figured out that he's stealing loot. Let him adventure with you and then kill him in his sleep. etc.. I mean, the guys playing his character very well. You admit it yourself. You have NO reason in character to suspect him. After all, he's a cleric! He keeps you alive, why would he rob you? He's a great con artist in character, and you have to respect that. He's pulling it off well, and sounds like he's RPing it very well. In my opinion, he deserves a tip of the hat. And you do, too, for not meta gaming and killing him or stalking him or whatever. You have no reason to suspect he's stealing. HOWEVER.. You do have a reason to question his incredible wealth. Ask him how he is so rich. Then.. ..ask him if he'd be willing to share his wealth. =) Any 'good' cleric would, after all.. Then he won't.. that's odd.. hm why can't we tell his alignment? Why would you use a ring like that if you aren't trying to hide something? What's he hiding? You can lead your way to suspicion. Don't jump straight to a solution. Ease toward it logically in character.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 05-25-05, 07:32 PM	As for why I put up with crap, its the closest DM -_- i've put up fliers in stores before, nobody ever responds, i'm in a fairly dry area for gaming unfortunately, or so it seems. And we've talked to the DM...his only answer is, always, catch him in game like you should, don't bother me out of game with something that bothers you in game. If the player is whose bothering you, have your characters do something about it.Whoa. So your DM and this player are both woefully incompetant jerkasses. How old are they again?! You know what my opinion on this is now? Leave. And take as many of the other players with you as you can. D&D is a cooperative game -- you know, played by a group. You're all supposed to have fun. The DM is really running a one-on-one session for this guy, as evidenced not only by the monopolization of his time, but both of their complete disregard for anyone else in the group. Ditch these losers, quick. You've already talked to them and got nowhere. They obviously don't care about the rest of the group, so why should you bother to show up? And if there's no one else in the area, you can always game online -- or head over to the Gamers Classifieds section of the boards here, and post. You'd be surprised who lives where. (Edit: this post is by UltimateReality, not TPK, but I have a feeling he'd express nearly the same views.)
Templetroll 05-25-05, 07:34 PM	[QUOTE=UltimateReality]EDIT: to the OP: start matching his schemes. Seriously. If he's going to take the DM out of the room for an hour, you guys need to show him how disruptive his behaviour's being. For someone who's so smart, he sure doesn't show a lot of social graces or consideration for those around him. Sometimes the more oblivious/obtuse need to be shown by example... QUOTE] It won't matter what kind of a plan you come up with, just have each player have something that they can occupy the GM with for half an hour or so. let him sit there and wait for each of you to go in and do your deals. Don't talk to him while you wait, just shush him, sit and jot in a notebook so he can't see it, take it in with you when you talk to the DM. Make it so he doesn't know something in the game. OOC, ask the DM if anyone who is smart and powerful notices the bribes and rigged fights. Someone is losing - not every loser is bribed to throw the fight. Thieves guilds may lose money from rigged fights and they may hear about a lot of bribes being tossed around... without them giving permission or making a cut of the bets or bribes. have the thieves guild take their cut and make an example of the cleric... and thieves would know he is a cleric and powerful... but unless he is covering his bases well, someone can get in to the guy. They may not be as smart as he is but they will be nasty. Where is he stashing the loot anyway? Thieves might be interested in just getting their share that way. A cleric has a god. there should be a church somewhere and that means someone superior in rank to him. Evil folks don't like fast up-and-comers who gain wealth that easily; they'll take action of their own, and perhaps hinder his access to spells. Have the DM toss an honest, LG fighter into a rigged fight but the fighter wasn't the one who accepted the bribe - he wins and the cleric loses big because it was unexpected. See how he deals with that! The DM says, it was an honest guy, who knew? Evil cleric will take vengence and that will attract attention from other good folks. Regular folks who attend colesseum matches may start to hear a rumor about rigged fights (he can't be bribing everyone; there will be some shlub who is miffed), attendance will drop or maybe some riots will start after a rigged fight - how good can fighters act anyway?
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 07:36 PM	The next time he and the DM leave the room to discuss plans, you and the other players pack up your books and dice and leave the building. Don't necessarily go home, just head across the street and get yourself a pizza or something. When the two plotters come back to an empty room and table, maybe that will get the message across. If the DM gets mad, tell him "We came to play, not sit around twiddling our thumbs." I really like that idea, it is a great last resort technique, if all else fails, this will really show them you mean business.
yonman 05-25-05, 07:37 PM	I feel for you Codexia, you're caught between a rock and a hard place, but a game stops becoming a game if it isn't fun for anyone more. IMHO, your DM and that other player sounds like a big arse. Your player doesn't want to change or conform to at least make it enjoyable for others to play, and you DM is a d...ck for not attempting to make it fun for everyone (which is his job btw). Sorry, but I would leave your abusive relationship.
Zagan 05-25-05, 07:37 PM	I'd probably barf... but talking to your dm might be a better sollution and even a better one would be talking to your friend, pal, whatever that his character is an a*****e and he should stop with it. As mentioned above you can always leave wich is in my opinion stupid. You should fight to make your group a better one, cause finding a new one may be even harder ! Well in this world talking is mostly the best way to solve problems and find sollutions so have a chat with your group and solve this nasty problem .. i wish you luck and hope your game will go on . -- Zagan p.s. = if everything you tried has failed than you better ditch this group cause they dont understand what dm'ing and roleplaying is about
Sargon 05-25-05, 07:45 PM	Oh, and I forgot to mention his other job -_- he aparently steals souls using some gemmed knife on willing victims, plane shifts to the lower planes, and trades said souls for some sort of drug...I forget exactly what it is, I just know it sells between 2-5k per ounce in the prime material plane. >_< DUDE :) this sounds like the coolest... character EVER... seriously... Bribing officialls ... trading souls with Demon for Luhix then pushing it on the material plane.. thats just awsome.. I wouldn't want that player to stop. I'de do some in game investigations.. and try my dangest to find out what he's doing.. Then i'de DEMAND that he Cut me in on it.. and if he doesn't. I wouldn't think twice about ratting him out to the most zealous paladin of Tyr i could find Bribing officals rigging gladitorial contest.. political schemeing.. The Paladins of Tyr would have a field day with this guy. Or he could just cut me in on the gold... ethier way.
Siduakal 05-25-05, 07:46 PM	How do they not know what dm'ing and roleplaying are about? Nothing stops him from asking the DM to step into private for a secret plan. And it SOUNDS like the NE Cleric is roleplaying quite well. Their characters aren't onto him, yet...
codexia 05-25-05, 07:46 PM	Lots of people to respond to...time to summarize, lol Walking out with everybody seems like an idea that, at this point, may be neccessary for shoving the idea through their skulls that we want to play more. As for the way his schemes work...the colloseum is run by the thieves guild (secretly) so they are already getting their share. His temple is getting tithing in the hundreds of thousands of gold, so they dont care. And he stores it all in various portable holes hidden in various places (other planes most likely) so we have no clue at all how to get to any of them. *reads over some more posts* Kicking the Clerics ass in game would be an option, if he wasn't loaded up on godly magic items from having access to millions of gold ^^; He could probobly wipe the floor with all of us, unfortunately. Basicly, it seems like making them see just how much we hate this is the best option, either by leaving, or making him wait for hours on end while we all do crap with the DM. Heck, I know I can take up time if I list up 30 or 40 magic items and say i'm searching for them all myself. [edit] Thats the thing. I think he's roleplaying WONDERFULY. However, that wonderful roleplaying is ruining the game for the rest of us :( And thankyou, Luhix was the name of that drug.
Templetroll 05-25-05, 07:47 PM	I feel for you Codexia, you're caught between a rock and a hard place, but a game stops becoming a game if it isn't fun for anyone more. IMHO, your DM and that other player sounds like a big arse. Your player doesn't want to change or conform to at least make it enjoyable for others to play, and you DM is a d...ck for not attempting to make it fun for everyone (which is his job btw). Sorry, but I would leave your abusive relationship. And the OP said the jerk is going to be the next DM.... True enough, the rest may as well just start a smaller group for themselves. I'd expect the current DM would be pulling similar schemes and be as abusive about monopolizing the time and this smart guy will be brutal to everyone else. If you have two other players, try running your own game for a while. see if one of them is willing to take over after a while. Gotta be better than what you have.
codexia 05-25-05, 07:51 PM	Yes, he is the next DM. Thing is, he's a great DM, which is why i'm so loathe to just pick up and leave. He's just a bit of an over-zealous player... Thing is, I don't begrudge him the fact that he's an excellent roleplayer with deep characters. The problem is that it's not much fun playing when you really get nothing out of it. He's getting 90% of the loot, 99% of the gold (when you calculate his millions), and were left out in the cold for hours :(
Siduakal 05-25-05, 07:53 PM	If it comes to lack of enjoyment, talk to them out of character after talkin to the rest of the group. The rest can bring it up, say you aren't enjoying yourselves with the game and say why. Make sure you admit that he's not doing anything illegal, it just isn't fun to always be second fiddle and to never get any of the rewards for the fighting to you guys.
codexia 05-25-05, 07:55 PM	We have talked it over with them :weep: everytime the answer is the same. When you have a ligitimate in game reason for your characters to be suspicious, then look into it. And I know where he's coming from. BUT. That doesnt stop the fact that until our characters have a legitimate reason to wonder whats going on...the games no fun.
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 08:08 PM	Any time he runs off from the group to do his bribing, that is a legitimate reason to wonder what is up. Why is he constantly leaving the rest of the group?? What exactely is it he is doing while we are fighting??? Why do the items we have seem to be less powerful then his?? Where did he get the money to buy that?? All of those are legitimate reasons to wonder what he is up to.
codexia 05-25-05, 08:11 PM	"Any time he runs off from the group to do his bribing, that is a legitimate reason to wonder what is up. Why is he constantly leaving the rest of the group?? What exactely is it he is doing while we are fighting??? Why do the items we have seem to be less powerful then his?? Where did he get the money to buy that?? All of those are legitimate reasons to wonder what he is up to." Running off = going to temple to pray While fighting = healing us, and when he's not healing, it's because we don't need it at the time More powerful items = his temple is helping him Money = his temple is helping him And his temple will always agree, since he's paying them off >.> a lot of gold
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 08:24 PM	So when he runs off, ask him for you to along since you are thinking of converting, if he says no, then you will know something is up, and then go find some Paladians, they will be more than happy to help you out.
Sargon 05-25-05, 08:29 PM	Running off = going to temple to pray While fighting = healing us, and when he's not healing, it's because we don't need it at the time More powerful items = his temple is helping him Money = his temple is helping him And his temple will always agree, since he's paying them off >.> a lot of gold Tell him that Clerics of X god seem to do quite well and you'de like to go to the temple with him and see about joining yourself. Or does he have some clever way around that one too? Edit: I didn't see Mr. Awsome's post up there. Well thats two for asking him to go to the Temple as a prospective convert :cool:
Merestil Haye 05-25-05, 08:31 PM	(snip) Kicking the Clerics ass in game would be an option, if he wasn't loaded up on godly magic items from having access to millions of gold ^^; He could probobly wipe the floor with all of us, unfortunately.One thing occurred to me. Do you have another character in the group who has access to Detect Magic, See Invisible and spells like (say) Fly? Has the wizard never had to cast a Detect Magic, and found the cleric with his loads of items in his arc of vision? The next time he does so, wait until the DM and player are out of the room and have an IC chat about the fact he is loaded. When they return, take the DM aside (as a group), explain what you have discussed and and that one of you (the rogue or wizard) will be following the cleric next time. Invisibly. See where he goes. Start gathering intelligence (in the sense of information). See where it goes from there.
codexia 05-25-05, 08:51 PM	Unfortunately, even though we have detect magic, since hes so rich, he just tosses things into a magically locked bag of holding, which means we cant detect it anyway. And detect invisable our party wizard could do, but he never memorizes it. He's trying his best to be in character, and doesnt feel that the cleric needs watching since hes never overtly seemed to do anything to the party. The cleric is very good at what he does :( As for asking him to take us to the temple, I did actually :) His response was that the temple didn't want converts that weren't the proper alignment, and would refuse to see us simply because our views weren't the same. (He's the only neutral evil in the party). It would be a waste of our time, and his priests time, and he refuses to waist his priests time. I've followed him into the temple before also, actually, but the priest always goes into the back room to see him alone and refuses to let us in. (and i KNOW a temple full of clerics could kick my butt if i tried to force my way in). Remember, the priests are in on his tricks -_-
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 08:54 PM	Well then that should be a good reason to wonder right there. What church doesn't need more people?? More people means more money for them, there is something wrong there, and your characters would be able to see this in game, thats when you get the Paladians in on it and let them know that the chruch is doing something weird, then you raid the place, or set up a sting.
codexia 05-25-05, 08:58 PM	The only paladin we have in the party is a paladin of Tyranny, so i'm not sure he would care :P However, ratting out the temple to a temple of, oh...Tyr or Pelor...that might actually have some interesting results :P
Awesome_Man 05-25-05, 09:00 PM	The thats what you need to do. Let Righteous Flame rain down on that temple and their followers!!!
HappyDragon 05-25-05, 09:08 PM	Awesome Man and Sargon's ideas of wanting to convert to the clerics religion is an EXCELLENT idea. It works perfectly in-game as the characters see this cleric doing so immensely well....maybe his church has something going on that is worth joining. Plus the fact that as a cleric, there should be positive effects that should make him want the extra praise of his church to bring in more converts.....and if for some reason he said no, that only gives more reason to start wondering what's up with this guy. Another in-game thing that could get played up is your characters own suspiscious, paranoid natures. Most of your group is either on the Evil or Neutral Axis, with only one Good aligned character. Tendency for groups of this nature is to often be paranoid of what the other is doing....just start playing those nastier personalities up more and start calling him out EVERY time he goes of doing something by himself....Eventually he will fail a Roll and completely nail him on it. Secondly, back to the church thing. You may not know that he's messing around with you guys but you have to know what temple he goes to by now and could easilly get a very good idea of it's beliefs and ideas which could act as a good tip off for suspecting the cleric of wrong doings when he iis away from your group so often. "Let's see, worships, Evil, Trickery, and Greed.....hmmmmm, I wonder if he really has our best interests at heart...". Finally I would ask that the player roleplay his character in the presence of you guys. Your group has already shown superhuman abilities of not meta-gaming, (Kudos! on that by the way :clap: ), so why does he have to go off with the DM so often for such long periods of time. It really is unnesseccary. The only thing I was thinkng is if the said player is going to be DM next, they are conferencing or something and the character the person is playing is actually going to be the BBEG when he takes over as referee. Great for those two, but it is a GROUP of players playing and the two of them need to stop stroking their own egos.
Sargon 05-25-05, 09:11 PM	The only paladin we have in the party is a paladin of Tyranny, so i'm not sure he would care :P However, ratting out the temple to a temple of, oh...Tyr or Pelor...that might actually have some interesting results :P Like i said in my first post... Paladins of Tyr would have field day with this Guy. Tyr is about perserving Law and Order.. bribery is not legal and as a side note.. Tell the cleric his head explodes because there is not in-game terms such as alignment... thats an out of game mechanic term.
codexia 05-25-05, 09:16 PM	LOL, I didn't think of that XD *watches the clerics head explode* And thanks...yea, we have been going through hell to resist metagaming everything...its so hard :( Anyway, when we play tonight...I'm going to see what happens when I sick the temple on him :P I'll let everybody know what happens. *is hoping to see white flames raining down on people in the next few hours*
mathogre 05-25-05, 09:16 PM	His character has an intelligence of 22 (thanks to a necklace if intelligence +4) As I said, we've all confronted him before, he refuses to give a rats butt. (evil things being censored) I highly dought theres a BJ involved in the process o.o at least I hope not. But believe me, the guy knows he's making it hard on the rest of us, we've told him, he just doesn't care, he wants his character to play out EXACTLY as he planned him to. 1: Lawful Evil, Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, Neutral Good 2: No, he never got caught, by anybody. To many mind effecting spells -_- 3: Um...a normal campaign? Not quite sure what you mean by that. None of the other players have a huge problem with it, but they are definately starting to get annoyed. Everybody else gets their things done in town within 15-20 minutes...like it should be >.> so we can move on, lol. I've already considered leaving. Hunting him around the town sounds like fun actually XD Hi! I'm probably too new to D&D to give a good response (I've only played 3 sessions so far, fourth one is this Friday - can't wait!), but here goes anyway. Before I begin, the guy sounds like a total fscking ****** orifice (and that's "file system checking", btw ;) ). The DM doesn't sound too hot either. :plotting: Okay. You have two evil characters in the game. Have they ever heard of jealousy?! Envy? If they see this jerk making away with all the loot, an evil character would want it himself. If he couldn't get it, he'd just be happy seeing that the jerk doesn't get any more. That's envy - green, mean, jealous, envy. Don't be Nice, be EVIL. :devil: Next. Your only lawful character is evil. The others are either chaotic or neutral. Hmmm... Depending on the level of characters you have, this sounds like fodder for building Mr./Ms. Chaotic Evil to a prestige class, namely assassin. ;-) For the assassin, there need not be a reason to kill, other than the desire. Get together with your other team members over a cup of coffee outside of the game. Plan the assassination. Consider the things he does. When is he visible, and when is he not? Look for vulnerabilities and be prepared to exploit them. In fact, you others should role play the situation outside of the game, with one of you playing Mr. Jerk. Figure out how to off the loser, and then bring it to the game. :fight!: Good luck. I don't know if this helps, but that situation would anger the whee out of me.
codexia 05-25-05, 09:25 PM	About the only problem with simply killing the cleric...is he's our best source of healing :P Cure Critical Wounds and a well timed Heal is a very, very nice thing to have.
Siduakal 05-25-05, 09:37 PM	Actually.. you guys are EVIL party? Okay, a truly evil party would gank him in his sleep. Coup de grace his ass and take everything he owns. That's how evil works. If one guys greatly outshining them, they'll take him out.. (Especially Chaotic Evil.. LE maybe not so much)
HappyDragon 05-25-05, 09:45 PM	Heh, Usually I don't condone this type of action in a group....But, if you do kill him, take all those wonderful items he's been hoarding away from you guys and sell them to get stuff like wands, potions etc. for curative stuff. Or just hire out a Cleric from another, slightly more reputable temple. You said there is a Paladin of Tyranny, pay good tithing to his church and I''m sure they'll be happy to keep you all alive longer. :devil:
Enslaved DM 05-25-05, 09:50 PM	He's a neutral evil cleric who is always disappearing and has more money than anyone else in the party. Figuring out that he's skimming is a no brainer. You've talked to the player and the DM and nothing is going to be done. Either leave the group (or kick him out) or wack his character. If he doesn't want to stop and their aren't repurcussions for his actions, why should he change? If their aren't severe consequences to screwing the rest of the party over, you guys are just being suckers.
codexia 05-25-05, 09:58 PM	Some fun ideas here, hehe. Anyway, its 10pm, D&D time. I'll be back to let people know in a few hours whats happening to a certain NE cleric... :smirk:
Maxwell Rose 05-25-05, 10:45 PM	He has to have some, everyone does. His main source of income seems to be rigged fights, that type of venture has plenty of holes, anyone who can be bribed can be bribed twice. But first we have to get you to that point. Now as a Clr he has holy symbols on his gear, or has used one to turn undead. With a little looking into you can find out who these belong too, if they indeed belong to a NE God you can stop right there and be as mistrusting as you need to be. Even if your evil yourself, evil knows not the word trust. If he is faking faith in a good God then you just have to check with the temple he proclaims faith in. You already seem to have had the talk that he doesn't match your "outlook on life" ask him what his is, and say your willing to change yours because his seems to be working much better. This is all an atempt to get him to slip up and provide you with just a hint to get you to look into. Then you follow him, you must know of the Ring now, sence he has used it in front of you. (if he hasn't skip this next bit) Once you know what his deal is, by following him, you can start earning cash like him or turn him over to the proper people, or even break him. (if you don't know he makes millions gambling on rigged games you need to meta a bit and start your Pc on a gambling kick. Bribe some folks to see if they happen to know who will edge ahead in this next fight, if all else failes enter the ring yourself saying you need to sharpen your skills or earn more cash then you are getting =) Try to find out who he is paying off, because he has alot more cash then you your not going to be able to rebuy them, you are going to have to buy the other side if you can. Or you can bet on his side till you have funds to break him. If you can find out the rogues guild is running the arena you can turn this on your jackhole gaming mate. Tell them you have a 'friend' (so they don't kill you) who if he doesn't hear from you later tonight, is going to tell the town watch/every good church that the theves guild is in charge of the arena and the games are rigged. This can be avoided if they kill/capture/rob blind your NE clr buddy. If none of this works (you are not trying hard enough) and we can work it from the drug selling pov next. BTW, this guy sounds like a friend of mine, name isn't larry is it? =) We pulled off all kinds of evil crap like this and never got caught, but we never messed up game play this bad eather.
UltimateReality 05-25-05, 11:44 PM	We pulled off all kinds of evil crap like this and never got caught, but we never messed up game play this bad eather.The difference in the campaign our group played was: we were all in it together. We stole the king's throne and ceremonial jewelry on the coronation night -- together. We robbed the most heavily protected safe vaults of the bank -- together. We ripped off the thieves' guild -- together. We sold off the original deed to the capital city -- together. Noticing a theme here? :P The OP's group is working a bit differently. (And that is, btw, one of the reasons I highly recommend disallowing evil characters in campaigns: unless you give them a much stronger motivating/threatening force to unify them, they will turn on each other quicker than you can blink, and this kind of game disruption occurs.)
Enslaved DM 05-25-05, 11:58 PM	Evil characters who can get it through their skulls that it is in their best interests to be surrounded by allies as oppossed to people they've swindled are fine. Evil characters who screw over the people who will be guarding them in their sleep deserve what they get.
codexia 05-26-05, 12:04 AM	midnight...and the game is over Well, we got him ^____^ we got his ass good. Went to the temple of Tyr and said that something might be happening in the temple (I can never remember his god's name...it's really long and a pain in the butt) and they sent over a few Paladin's to check it out with us. We caught them in the back room, but nothing could really be done there, since a priest is allowed to meet with people in private, and they didn't catch him doing illegal things. They were about to arrest me for false charges (and I thought I was screwed till the paladin of tyrany no less thought of this) but he told them to put everybody under a Circle of Truth spell. Well, needless to say, we have caused the entire colloseum to be closed down, have recovered every last piece of gold that he owned, have every single one of his magic items (and HOLY CRAP are there some great ones, which we ended up giving to the church of Tyr (since they were all evil items (made with souls to replace XP cost) and we really didnt want to get in trouble in front of the paladins, lol)), got the entire church closed down for the bribes, and got half the higher ups in the city put in jail. To make the victory even sweeter, apparently (which we actually had no clue about) the NE cleric and the temple he worked for was apparently planning on overthrowing the lord of that city and taking over with the help of the thieves guild. SO. The entire thieves guild that could be found was put in jail, the entire temple was put in jail, and the cleric and the priest were executed for treason XD. They actually had to ship people to other cities via airship the jail got so full, lol. Victory...is sweet. :D He sat there for a good five minutes with his jaw hitting the table, and the DM laughing his ass off. Apparently, he had been waiting for us to find a way to capture him, he was so tired of doing those side things :D [edit] The gold count, by the way (which we each got 100,000 of as reward) was *checks the paper* 47,956,500 :OMG! other then our rewards, the colloseum records were used track down people and return their money ^_^
Sargon 05-26-05, 12:15 AM	HELL YES DUDE!!!! That F'N ROCKS!!! :cheer: Way to go buddy... Glad to be of a service :tiphat:
Enslaved DM 05-26-05, 01:13 AM	Nice.
Yruc 05-26-05, 01:54 AM	lol Awesome :) You guys did great, glad it all worked out for you. I think you all just made a bunch of enemies; A whole thieves guild, some evil God for taking down his clerics :) major plot items right there. Just keep watch over your shoulders for awhile and relish the taste of victory and what it means to be one of the good guys.
Derren S. 05-26-05, 03:25 AM	Because you could get so rich with a few bribes... The DM definatly favored the cleric when he did his shemes. If you can get that much money with a few bribes there would already be someone to do it. Also this ammount of gold is a total unrealistic ammount for colloseum income as 95% of all people don't even have a single gp to spare.
Corinthians 05-26-05, 05:18 AM	guess i'll start reading the whole length of posts before i respond :)
Corinthians 05-26-05, 07:29 AM	good job on working him over.
Awesome_Man 05-26-05, 08:38 AM	Nice, glad that it all worked out.
mathogre 05-26-05, 09:04 AM	Woot woot!!!!!!!!! :evillaugh
Phrennzy 05-26-05, 10:15 AM	The entire campaign sounds completely repugnant (alignments, private sessions, and 47,956,500gp) - but I read through the entire thread and I am very happy that you and your friends were able to find an in game solution and keep the campaign going, because you seemed set on leaving. Good job.
Maxwell Rose 05-26-05, 12:01 PM	Well done, give yourself a pat on the back and then check it for daggers. :D You all should use your rewards to hunt down the people you didn't catch and off those mo fos too. If I was DMing, those thugs would scatter, regroup and come after you. (but still) YAYAYAY WE GOT HIM!!!
snowlynx 05-26-05, 12:16 PM	Another thought: if this player is recreating, you might consider you and the other players asking him to make a character that will work with the group next time. If all the players except him voice this, I think your DM might understand too.
Sargon 05-26-05, 12:17 PM	We should have a Party... :D Codexia- Whats your PC's name? I'm gonna put a painting of your chaacter in my Campaign as a masterwork Art Object And The Church of Tyr is a Huge part of my game... So I might even makes some refrences to it.. (Even though its a totaly diffrent setting i'm sure its just a really great story.)
danielinthewolvesden 05-26-05, 03:40 PM	Do not try and solve this In-character, in-game. This is really an OOC problem with the one player and your DM. Have a mature adult sit down with them. Tell them both how thier actions are making you feel. NOT that their actions are 'wrong". Juts that their actions are making the game less fun for you, making you feel like your PC is useless, etc. Suggest a new campaign, a restart, now.
Arkidisey 05-26-05, 04:23 PM	i've been reading up to this point AND MAN WAS I WAITING TO HEAR THAT!!!! NICE JOB!!! even though i play evil and stuff... man he was so genius... AND THEN YOU KICKED HIS ASS he wasn't smart anough apparently!! *EDIT* So... the DM was basically being held hostage by the fact that the guy's the next DM! *gasp*
Lincoln Hills 05-26-05, 04:59 PM	...I mean, the guy's playing his character very well... He's a great con artist in character, and you have to respect that. He's pulling it off well, and sounds like he's RPing it very well. In my opinion, he deserves a tip of the hat. Being a good role-player is an admirable thing... but it is not the ultimate goal of a role-playing group. The group's goal is to Have Fun. If one or more of the characters is role-played in such a way that he is causing the other players to experience frustration, boredom, anger or sorrow, then his actions are not praiseworthy. Posit: I am playing the role of a master pickpocket. I steal everything from the PCs, using a lazy/apathetic DM and an exploitation of the Pick Pocket rules to see to it that all the characters are constantly poor, and - once I reach epic level - naked. My character never gives any of this wealth back. He spends it all at the unicorn races. All of it, including his own share. He has a bottomless gambling addiction together with an inability to select winners reliably. Is this a "well role-played" character? Oh, absolutely. Am I role-playing even when it does not work in my favor? Are the rest of the players having fun? Almost certainly not (once the initial "running gag" amusement wears off). Should the character be kept in the group? No. And if my next character is a wimpy little guy with a blowgun who keeps killing people and then framing the barbarian for it "because he's more likely to survive taking on the town guards than I am," or some similar well-role-played-but-aggravating character, then the problem is with the player, who should be shunned like a sheep-tick. A well-role-played character is not, in and of itself, a good thing.
codexia 05-26-05, 05:22 PM	Lol, didn't quite expect so many responses :P but thanks. And, um...if your really curious o.O my character is Kurai, and he's a Fighter/Weaponmaster that specializes in Spiked Chains, lol. And yes, he's remaking a character for this campaign, and he said he'll lay off some of the evil bastardness. And yes, i'm VERY aware that amount of money was >.> more then over the top. But it was still a nice big shiny number to show we kicked his butt, lol.
Dungeon Master 05-26-05, 06:48 PM	As some added revenge, why not use his character's name in a new "saying"... so if his name was John, anytime someone's plan backfires, say "you got johned!" Or you could comission a statue of his character in a pillory.
UltimateReality 05-26-05, 09:26 PM	Do not try and solve this In-character, in-game. This is really an OOC problem with the one player and your DM. Have a mature adult sit down with them. Tell them both how thier actions are making you feel. NOT that their actions are 'wrong". Juts that their actions are making the game less fun for you, making you feel like your PC is useless, etc. Suggest a new campaign, a restart, now. Hummmmm, somebody needs to read the whole thread. ;) (It's not that boring or long, I promise!) @ codexia: that kicks butt. While I don't approve of the way your DM or other player handled/built up the situation, I'm very glad you have it all resolved.
danielinthewolvesden 05-27-05, 12:43 PM	Hummmmm, somebody needs to read the whole thread. ;) (It's not that boring or long, I promise!) @ codexia: that kicks butt. While I don't approve of the way your DM or other player handled/built up the situation, I'm very glad you have it all resolved. I did. I'll bet a nickel that the real "problem' is far from being resolved. The next PC that guys runs will just screw the party over much more sneakily. The real problem is that player, not his character.
codexia 05-27-05, 02:22 PM	Lol, we already told him if he starts that **** again, were metagaming and murdering his character in about 3 seconds :P
LCD2YOU 05-27-05, 02:57 PM	Being a good role-player is an admirable thing... but it is not the ultimate goal of a role-playing group. The group's goal is to Have Fun. If one or more of the characters is role-played in such a way that he is causing the other players to experience frustration, boredom, anger or sorrow, then his actions are not praiseworthy. Posit: I am playing the role of a master pickpocket. I steal everything from the PCs, using a lazy/apathetic DM and an exploitation of the Pick Pocket rules to see to it that all the characters are constantly poor, and - once I reach epic level - naked. My character never gives any of this wealth back. He spends it all at the unicorn races. All of it, including his own share. He has a bottomless gambling addiction together with an inability to select winners reliably. Is this a "well role-played" character? Oh, absolutely. Am I role-playing even when it does not work in my favor? Are the rest of the players having fun? Almost certainly not (once the initial "running gag" amusement wears off). Should the character be kept in the group? No. And if my next character is a wimpy little guy with a blowgun who keeps killing people and then framing the barbarian for it "because he's more likely to survive taking on the town guards than I am," or some similar well-role-played-but-aggravating character, then the problem is with the player, who should be shunned like a sheep-tick. A well-role-played character is not, in and of itself, a good thing. he was a Munchkin. As I have stated before, there are min/maxers, powergamers, powertrippers and the worse of the lot Munchkins. In abbreviated descriptions: Min/Max? Everyone does it. Until you roll up a character 3d6 for each stat, down the line and to top it off, don't even pick the class that best suits them, you do some min/maxing. Powergamers play their characters as stats on a sheet. They have no concept of anything else. Powertrippers want to beat anything the DM throws at the group. Munchkins TELL the DM how they want the world to work Obviously, this guy was a Munchkin. Yes Virginia, even "troo"TM roleplayers can be Munchkins (or powertrippers). Good going. Me wants to hear if said smart guy has a melt down about how "everyone hates me".
codexia 05-27-05, 08:02 PM	No, he doesn't really care apparently. After he got over his initial shock at not only being discovered, but screwed so bad, he thought it was funny. He's apparently very good at not taking grudges in/out of a game. His new character is apparently going to be some kind of fighter...which both makes me feel a bit safer >.> and a bit more worried
boredgremlin 05-27-05, 09:48 PM	Yes, he is the next DM. Thing is, he's a great DM, which is why i'm so loathe to just pick up and leave. He's just a bit of an over-zealous player... Thing is, I don't begrudge him the fact that he's an excellent roleplayer with deep characters. The problem is that it's not much fun playing when you really get nothing out of it. He's getting 90% of the loot, 99% of the gold (when you calculate his millions), and were left out in the cold for hours :( Thats one thing i have noticed in my time playing. Usually good DM's make god awful players. The reason for this is quite simple. DM's are the sort of people who like being the center of attention and controlling the world of the game. It sounds like this player feels the need to be the center of attention and be more powerfull then everyone else. Thats not good roleplaying any more then being a ball hog is good in basketball, even when your the best shot on the court. I think besides this solution someone needs to talk to the DM privately. It seems like he was allowing the player to get away with this just because he is gonna be the next DM. I understand wanting to let you guys catch him yourselves but how many sessions got ruined because of this behavior? Your DM should have nipped it before it got this bad. Still nice going on getting him. Watch out when he DM's though. He might be more ****** about this then he is letting on.
boredgremlin 05-27-05, 09:57 PM	Also should have booted his character once it became clear something was up and just got a different cleric. People need to look out for situations like this and come down on them hard before they get this bad.
Maerdash 05-28-05, 02:45 AM	Just saying WOOOOHOOOO! I love it when disruptive players and evil characters pay their dues Good for you mate
danielinthewolvesden 05-28-05, 04:44 AM	Lol, we already told him if he starts that **** again, were metagaming and murdering his character in about 3 seconds :P No, no, no, no. Talk to him as an adult= person to person, or player to player. Not "in character". The solution isn't to kill his PC, the solution may well be to kick him out. Do not try and solve OOC problems in game. If he's that smart, he'll just screw you and you'll never know. Instead of threatening to "kill his character", just explain that (if he keeps it up) you won't play with him anymore. Much more effective, and more mature.