Game Pre-Planning with DM: Appropriate or Not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Game Pre-Planning with DM: Appropriate or Not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Plane Traveler
07-22-05, 08:07 AM Is it appropriate to coordinate character levels prior to a game? I can't get my DM to commit to what level character is needed for the adventure that's about to be run. My sense is that we'll gen characters immediately prior to playing.

I've been trying to get my DM to tell me what's needed because I'm still new to D&D, and character generation for me is still rather slow and tedious. I want to go to the game ready to play and not waste everyone's time figuring out how to create and equip a new character.
Radijs
07-22-05, 08:24 AM With me and the DM's I play with its the norm to have characters prior to playing.

When I organize a campaign I tell the players as soon as possible which level they are going to play and what alignment restrictions I place on the party.

We usually have somewhere around 2 or 3 hours to play and I dont want to waste them with number crunching.
Zorminster
07-22-05, 08:43 AM with my group our initial meeting is to roll up characters- everyone present so no BSing scores skills etc- and any question you have can be asked of the dm for final rulings. Then we eat dinner and hang out.

Second meeting is an actual session and your character should be ready to play- XP goes out at the end, if you level you come back the next session with all that taken care of so no fooling with stats and skills.

I think its VERY appropriate to coordinate stuff like that, but since your new the DM probably wants to be right there to help you is all.
Radijs
07-22-05, 08:47 AM Oh there's another diffrence with my peeps. We always play 28 Pointbuy.
Plane Traveler
07-22-05, 08:57 AM I think its VERY appropriate to coordinate stuff like that, but since your new the DM probably wants to be right there to help you is all.
I wish it were like that! My sense from the DM's responses and past experience is that everyone will be at the table to roll and scribble furiously to make their characters as quickly as possible.
Zorminster
07-22-05, 09:06 AM ah, well, in that case- since you can't very well roll your character right now heres what id suggest.

roll up 20 characters. one at a time. do at least one of every class, and 4 or 5 of the class you think your going to be playing. Do the first 10 in a row almost non-stop-- that gets it all in your mind, a lil bit later do a couple more and on till your done

thatll give you some good practice but more importantly, it will give you a memory reference to important pages on skills, feats, class abilities, etc

Don't worry about equipping these characters beyond 1 melee weapon, armor, shield (if applicable) and a ranged weapon. This ensures your figuring up AC, Shield ac, touch, and FF acs as well as ranged and melee attack bonuses and damage bonuses.

You may also consider getting a generic adventure packing list drawn out-
something that youll take no matter what class (except maybe mage or some low str char for weight)- you can copy it over directly, already have all your weights and costs figured up- i find gear is what takes longest anyway, and by having that prepared you save yourself a ton of time.

Oh yea, if your going to be a spell caster, go on and draw out a list of spells that you are likely to feel important so you dont have to spend quite so long getting your known/memorized spells done. I would figure up at least the first 3 or four spell levels out.
Ut-Napishtim
07-22-05, 09:33 AM That's odd. I usually allow my players to choose between the standard 4d6 or a 28 point buy. While I like my players to all roll their attributes in front of one another, if a player insisted on generating their character in advance I'd simply tell them to use the point buy and let them know what wealth/level they'll be starting with. Then while the other folks are rolling their's up I could check it over to make sure the math is right, letting the others know that player X simply opted for the point buy because he didn't want to slow things down. Maybe your DM has a lot of house rules <bleh> for character generation he wants to impart while you guys are making them up.
fallabel
07-22-05, 09:37 AM Oftentimes when I'm preparing a campaign, I'll ask the players to generate their characters before I even plan the game. That way I can tailor the game to their specific characters. (Obviously this doesn't work if there's limited prep time available.)
UltimateReality
07-22-05, 05:41 PM Is it appropriate to coordinate character levels prior to a game?It depends. I would have a couple different concepts you're interested in, and maybe even go so far as to figure out what kind of classes, races, and feats you would need to make them work. But don't get your heart set on one; develop a few different ideas in case the rest of the group wants to make something that opposes it. (A necromancer in a party with ties to the church of Pelor would not work well, for example. Nor would a paladin in a group for the church of Nerull.)

I can't get my DM to commit to what level character is needed for the adventure that's about to be run. My sense is that we'll gen characters immediately prior to playing.The DM is probably worried about powergamers then. Rolling stats just before the session is fine, but if he won't even tell you what level you're starting at, he wants to prevent people from making uber-builds. He also wants the party to make characters that work well together. This has a better chance of happening if everyone decides on their concepts together, as a group, so that they can make sure they cover the basic bases.

I've been trying to get my DM to tell me what's needed because I'm still new to D&D, and character generation for me is still rather slow and tedious. I want to go to the game ready to play and not waste everyone's time figuring out how to create and equip a new character.Did you tell him that? I would. He may also be one of those DMs who likes to spend the whole first "session" of the campaign on char gen. (I've done it before, and we have experienced players who can crank a char out in less than 10 minutes.) Present your DM with your concerns and see how he responds.
Dragonsblood
07-22-05, 05:56 PM Yes it's appropriate, but your DM's opinion might differ (I even have a character completely fleshed out for a campaign starting in 2 months). As another poster pointed out, most likely your DM wants you to have his help when creating the character. In fact, my current group takes this a step further by coordinating with each other so we have a balanced group (IE a healer, a tank, an arcane caster, a rogue, etc). Our DM also lets us roll stats in front of another player (we're all mature adults so cheating isn't prevelent).

Can you pick what class you're going to play? If so, you should at least get a basic concept and background together. From there you should know what feats/spells you're going to want and what skills are most important to you. Basically everything but your ability scores and gear.

If your DM won't let you pick a class yet, come up with different concepts for a few different classes, but don't get much more into it so you don't get attached.
SeidonVanDolf
07-23-05, 02:54 AM If you are not very experienced at it and don't want to waste everyone else's time then it is perfectly reasonable to request a little ahead of time preperation window. Offer to let him look it over with ample time before the game starts. And explain what you did as you let him see it so that he will know it was all honest. If you can have either him or another player in your group watch you make your stat rolls, unless you use the point-buy system, then it would probably be better too. Although I have had instances where I myself run a game and want everyone to make their characters together. It helps me decide what sort of adversaries to pit them against. I don't want them battling a bunch of golems if they are almost all spell-flingers but I also don't want them to have to deal with a hundred DC 25+ traps without a rogue. So he could be simply doing it for a balance thing.

In the end it all boils down to tone and tact with most DM's. DM's work very hard to put a good game together in most cases, though there are unfortunately some exceptions. But if he gets mad because you are taking too long and he refused your offer for whatever reason just remind him that you did offer and he was too stubborn to listen to reason...
Vatras
07-23-05, 09:22 PM I always tell my players in advance, at what level we will start, and also hand them a small leaflet with the houserules on the campaign (we never play just for one adventure, we keep the campaign going until it dissolves, which takes usually 3-5 years), that pertain to character generation, so that they can plan a little ahead what to take.
In the first session we roll up and polish the characters and do the background stuff (known history, geography, religions in the area, money, family, and whatever else comes up), before we start the game in the 2nd session.

I vastly prefer it, when my players come to the first session with an idea in mind what they want to play and how to go about it. It takes a lot of time if you have to work something out with someone who has not thought about it before. I also like to talk about their fancies with my players at other occasions (like playing billard or going to the movies), because it gives me an idea what to design for them (there is no point in creating a golem heavy dungeon, when all turn up with spell slingers...they wont enjoy it very much, which is the point of any game, if you ask me).
Izax19
07-24-05, 03:25 PM Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but how exactly does the point-buy system work? Would a pointbuy of 25 mean you start off with everything at 10, then add on 25 spread over the 6 stats? That's the only way I can see the numbers working... Please clarify
IceFractal
07-24-05, 03:52 PM Each stat starts at 8, and you spend points to raise them. Different stats cost different numbers of points:

08 - 0
09 - 1
10 - 2
11 - 3
12 - 4
13 - 5
14 - 6
15 - 8
16 - 10
17 - 13
18 - 16

So for instance, with 25 point buy, you could get stats of: [16, 12, 14, 10, 8, 11].
celtredleg
07-24-05, 04:43 PM I like the first session to be charecter making, and then a quick run to get everybody settled in. I dont like spending 4 hours while one person reads every book to get a PC togather.

In your case, if you have some idea what you want, ask the DM if you can meet him early to make the charecter as you think you will be slow at it. An hor or so the day before should not be a huge thing.
Nidair
07-24-05, 04:59 PM That's a weird houserule if I ever saw one. I could never create a character with some sense with that houserule in effect. My characters all have serious thought behind them, even the 'simple' sneaky bastard thief, and have all taken around 3 hours character creation at least. Creating characters on the fly will result in terribly flavorless sheets of paper. At least with me, but I can imagine that others have serious problems with creating a character in 15 minutes too.

What you can do, is making up the items for your character that do not change in 1 level, in advance. That includes your history, appearance, class, race (assuming you're using a PHB race), and even a first feat.
In the time you have to set the rest of your character up, you only have to clutter it in with his/her stats, skills, equipment, and new feats if you begin above first level. That is still much, especially for a beginner, but better than creating everything in 15 minutes at the roleplaying table.

Again, I always tell my players the details for character creation at least a week before the campaign begins so I don't have to wait the first 1,5 hour of the session. Also, you can tell your DM about RolePlay onLine (http://www.rpol.net) , where he can create a game with the sole purpose of rolling stats and HP of all the characters. Nobody can cheat with the dice that way.

EDIT: ********************* censor :P
On_the_wings_of_TPK
07-24-05, 05:00 PM Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but how exactly does the point-buy system work? Would a pointbuy of 25 mean you start off with everything at 10, then add on 25 spread over the 6 stats? That's the only way I can see the numbers working... Please clarify
For even further clarification, you can find the whole shebang on p. 169 of your 3.5DMG. :)
Plane Traveler
07-28-05, 03:15 PM Thank you everyone! This has been insightful and very helpful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Plane Traveler 07-22-05, 08:07 AM	Is it appropriate to coordinate character levels prior to a game? I can't get my DM to commit to what level character is needed for the adventure that's about to be run. My sense is that we'll gen characters immediately prior to playing. I've been trying to get my DM to tell me what's needed because I'm still new to D&D, and character generation for me is still rather slow and tedious. I want to go to the game ready to play and not waste everyone's time figuring out how to create and equip a new character.
Radijs 07-22-05, 08:24 AM	With me and the DM's I play with its the norm to have characters prior to playing. When I organize a campaign I tell the players as soon as possible which level they are going to play and what alignment restrictions I place on the party. We usually have somewhere around 2 or 3 hours to play and I dont want to waste them with number crunching.
Zorminster 07-22-05, 08:43 AM	with my group our initial meeting is to roll up characters- everyone present so no BSing scores skills etc- and any question you have can be asked of the dm for final rulings. Then we eat dinner and hang out. Second meeting is an actual session and your character should be ready to play- XP goes out at the end, if you level you come back the next session with all that taken care of so no fooling with stats and skills. I think its VERY appropriate to coordinate stuff like that, but since your new the DM probably wants to be right there to help you is all.
Radijs 07-22-05, 08:47 AM	Oh there's another diffrence with my peeps. We always play 28 Pointbuy.
Plane Traveler 07-22-05, 08:57 AM	I think its VERY appropriate to coordinate stuff like that, but since your new the DM probably wants to be right there to help you is all. I wish it were like that! My sense from the DM's responses and past experience is that everyone will be at the table to roll and scribble furiously to make their characters as quickly as possible.
Zorminster 07-22-05, 09:06 AM	ah, well, in that case- since you can't very well roll your character right now heres what id suggest. roll up 20 characters. one at a time. do at least one of every class, and 4 or 5 of the class you think your going to be playing. Do the first 10 in a row almost non-stop-- that gets it all in your mind, a lil bit later do a couple more and on till your done thatll give you some good practice but more importantly, it will give you a memory reference to important pages on skills, feats, class abilities, etc Don't worry about equipping these characters beyond 1 melee weapon, armor, shield (if applicable) and a ranged weapon. This ensures your figuring up AC, Shield ac, touch, and FF acs as well as ranged and melee attack bonuses and damage bonuses. You may also consider getting a generic adventure packing list drawn out- something that youll take no matter what class (except maybe mage or some low str char for weight)- you can copy it over directly, already have all your weights and costs figured up- i find gear is what takes longest anyway, and by having that prepared you save yourself a ton of time. Oh yea, if your going to be a spell caster, go on and draw out a list of spells that you are likely to feel important so you dont have to spend quite so long getting your known/memorized spells done. I would figure up at least the first 3 or four spell levels out.
Ut-Napishtim 07-22-05, 09:33 AM	That's odd. I usually allow my players to choose between the standard 4d6 or a 28 point buy. While I like my players to all roll their attributes in front of one another, if a player insisted on generating their character in advance I'd simply tell them to use the point buy and let them know what wealth/level they'll be starting with. Then while the other folks are rolling their's up I could check it over to make sure the math is right, letting the others know that player X simply opted for the point buy because he didn't want to slow things down. Maybe your DM has a lot of house rules <bleh> for character generation he wants to impart while you guys are making them up.
fallabel 07-22-05, 09:37 AM	Oftentimes when I'm preparing a campaign, I'll ask the players to generate their characters before I even plan the game. That way I can tailor the game to their specific characters. (Obviously this doesn't work if there's limited prep time available.)
UltimateReality 07-22-05, 05:41 PM	Is it appropriate to coordinate character levels prior to a game?It depends. I would have a couple different concepts you're interested in, and maybe even go so far as to figure out what kind of classes, races, and feats you would need to make them work. But don't get your heart set on one; develop a few different ideas in case the rest of the group wants to make something that opposes it. (A necromancer in a party with ties to the church of Pelor would not work well, for example. Nor would a paladin in a group for the church of Nerull.) I can't get my DM to commit to what level character is needed for the adventure that's about to be run. My sense is that we'll gen characters immediately prior to playing.The DM is probably worried about powergamers then. Rolling stats just before the session is fine, but if he won't even tell you what level you're starting at, he wants to prevent people from making uber-builds. He also wants the party to make characters that work well together. This has a better chance of happening if everyone decides on their concepts together, as a group, so that they can make sure they cover the basic bases. I've been trying to get my DM to tell me what's needed because I'm still new to D&D, and character generation for me is still rather slow and tedious. I want to go to the game ready to play and not waste everyone's time figuring out how to create and equip a new character.Did you tell him that? I would. He may also be one of those DMs who likes to spend the whole first "session" of the campaign on char gen. (I've done it before, and we have experienced players who can crank a char out in less than 10 minutes.) Present your DM with your concerns and see how he responds.
Dragonsblood 07-22-05, 05:56 PM	Yes it's appropriate, but your DM's opinion might differ (I even have a character completely fleshed out for a campaign starting in 2 months). As another poster pointed out, most likely your DM wants you to have his help when creating the character. In fact, my current group takes this a step further by coordinating with each other so we have a balanced group (IE a healer, a tank, an arcane caster, a rogue, etc). Our DM also lets us roll stats in front of another player (we're all mature adults so cheating isn't prevelent). Can you pick what class you're going to play? If so, you should at least get a basic concept and background together. From there you should know what feats/spells you're going to want and what skills are most important to you. Basically everything but your ability scores and gear. If your DM won't let you pick a class yet, come up with different concepts for a few different classes, but don't get much more into it so you don't get attached.
SeidonVanDolf 07-23-05, 02:54 AM	If you are not very experienced at it and don't want to waste everyone else's time then it is perfectly reasonable to request a little ahead of time preperation window. Offer to let him look it over with ample time before the game starts. And explain what you did as you let him see it so that he will know it was all honest. If you can have either him or another player in your group watch you make your stat rolls, unless you use the point-buy system, then it would probably be better too. Although I have had instances where I myself run a game and want everyone to make their characters together. It helps me decide what sort of adversaries to pit them against. I don't want them battling a bunch of golems if they are almost all spell-flingers but I also don't want them to have to deal with a hundred DC 25+ traps without a rogue. So he could be simply doing it for a balance thing. In the end it all boils down to tone and tact with most DM's. DM's work very hard to put a good game together in most cases, though there are unfortunately some exceptions. But if he gets mad because you are taking too long and he refused your offer for whatever reason just remind him that you did offer and he was too stubborn to listen to reason...
Vatras 07-23-05, 09:22 PM	I always tell my players in advance, at what level we will start, and also hand them a small leaflet with the houserules on the campaign (we never play just for one adventure, we keep the campaign going until it dissolves, which takes usually 3-5 years), that pertain to character generation, so that they can plan a little ahead what to take. In the first session we roll up and polish the characters and do the background stuff (known history, geography, religions in the area, money, family, and whatever else comes up), before we start the game in the 2nd session. I vastly prefer it, when my players come to the first session with an idea in mind what they want to play and how to go about it. It takes a lot of time if you have to work something out with someone who has not thought about it before. I also like to talk about their fancies with my players at other occasions (like playing billard or going to the movies), because it gives me an idea what to design for them (there is no point in creating a golem heavy dungeon, when all turn up with spell slingers...they wont enjoy it very much, which is the point of any game, if you ask me).
Izax19 07-24-05, 03:25 PM	Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but how exactly does the point-buy system work? Would a pointbuy of 25 mean you start off with everything at 10, then add on 25 spread over the 6 stats? That's the only way I can see the numbers working... Please clarify
IceFractal 07-24-05, 03:52 PM	Each stat starts at 8, and you spend points to raise them. Different stats cost different numbers of points: 08 - 0 09 - 1 10 - 2 11 - 3 12 - 4 13 - 5 14 - 6 15 - 8 16 - 10 17 - 13 18 - 16 So for instance, with 25 point buy, you could get stats of: [16, 12, 14, 10, 8, 11].
celtredleg 07-24-05, 04:43 PM	I like the first session to be charecter making, and then a quick run to get everybody settled in. I dont like spending 4 hours while one person reads every book to get a PC togather. In your case, if you have some idea what you want, ask the DM if you can meet him early to make the charecter as you think you will be slow at it. An hor or so the day before should not be a huge thing.
Nidair 07-24-05, 04:59 PM	That's a weird houserule if I ever saw one. I could never create a character with some sense with that houserule in effect. My characters all have serious thought behind them, even the 'simple' sneaky bastard thief, and have all taken around 3 hours character creation at least. Creating characters on the fly will result in terribly flavorless sheets of paper. At least with me, but I can imagine that others have serious problems with creating a character in 15 minutes too. What you can do, is making up the items for your character that do not change in 1 level, in advance. That includes your history, appearance, class, race (assuming you're using a PHB race), and even a first feat. In the time you have to set the rest of your character up, you only have to clutter it in with his/her stats, skills, equipment, and new feats if you begin above first level. That is still much, especially for a beginner, but better than creating everything in 15 minutes at the roleplaying table. Again, I always tell my players the details for character creation at least a week before the campaign begins so I don't have to wait the first 1,5 hour of the session. Also, you can tell your DM about RolePlay onLine (http://www.rpol.net) , where he can create a game with the sole purpose of rolling stats and HP of all the characters. Nobody can cheat with the dice that way. EDIT: ********************* censor :P
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-24-05, 05:00 PM	Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but how exactly does the point-buy system work? Would a pointbuy of 25 mean you start off with everything at 10, then add on 25 spread over the 6 stats? That's the only way I can see the numbers working... Please clarify For even further clarification, you can find the whole shebang on p. 169 of your 3.5DMG. :)
Plane Traveler 07-28-05, 03:15 PM	Thank you everyone! This has been insightful and very helpful.