Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MikEye 06-24-07, 09:45 PM	Guys, I have a gargantuan problem. Literaly. After battling a dark naga, when it appeared to die, it changed into a gargantuan red dragon before our level 5 party, asking why he should not kill us. After displaying his breath weapon on the walls of the cave, a cleric offered him the Orb of Koral, which is an artificat we have heard of in our campaign that allows one to planeshift at will, as many times per day, as a level 20 wizard, with 0 arcane spell failure chance. And to boot, it is completely accurate. Unforunately, this is something we heard about from what I think is an epic level wizard friend of ours, and he has spent his whole life looking for it, in the grounds beneath his tower. The dragon says that if we do not get him the orb in 2 months, he will kill us and wreak havoc on the land. He then changed into a bat and flew out of the cave. I know that illusions cannot use a breath weapon, and we do not want to give the dragon the orb, or he may use it to further his evil ways. I have come up with some of these plans. When the dragon comes back to the same place in bat form, the wizard may cast Power Word Kill or death(dont remember what it is off hand) on it, that may kill him. Or maybe to use the orb itself... Possibly lower the dragon's spell resistance... and planeshift him to pandemonium with Erythnuul, planeslocking him, ditching... I don't know.. I know a big problem is that his will save is insane, and will make it too hard to planeshift with him, unless someone can provide that link to the plan. I also thought of maybe bahamut, but he may send heralds at us and what not, where Erythnuul may simply just kill the dragon on the spot, not even wondering why he was there... being that he kills an endless amount of victims on his plane. I know that my DM is cruel for doing this, and its taking a large part of the fun out of the game. I do not want to be told to vote with feet, because I do not know any other gaming groups and i like the people in it The real question is this... What's a player to do?
Magrus 06-24-07, 09:52 PM	I dunno man. This is the 3rd thread I've posted in that you've started where my gut reaction was "That DM is horrible." Try to stick it out and power level? I mean, worst case scenarios is you die along the way trying to level quick and kill the dragon, or you die in battle against the dragon, so it's the same losing result either way. You are likely to be at the mercy of your horrid DM either way though.
MikEye 06-24-07, 09:54 PM	seems like it... I don't know why the heck he would do such a thing. But do you have any ideas on how to make use of this artifact to get rid of the dragon?
Magrus 06-24-07, 09:57 PM	Do you HAVE the artifact?
MikEye 06-24-07, 10:00 PM	No, but we all pooled our funds together and gave the wizard the materials needed to make an artifact similar to it, in which there is no failure chance, but he can only use it to go to planes he has been to already... meaning we could use something like it to drop the dragon in a hostile plane where he may not live
Magrus 06-24-07, 10:03 PM	*grunts* That means no cash for dragon bane stuff and spell scrolls. Blah. Dragonomicon has some nice spells for hitting dragons with. Earth Bind, Scale Weakening, Suppress Breath Weapon, Lower Spell resistance all would work wonders in doing this. It would require knowing what you have in your party, but, theoretically, if you were prepared, you might be able to tackle a high level dragon IF you could get your hands on some high level scrolls and someone to risk casting them. All of those spells are 4th level or below, Lower Spell Resistance being the only 4th level spell of the bunch. It wouldn't KILL the dragon, but it would reduce it to a ground level melee monster instead of a flying death machine.
Salla 06-24-07, 10:11 PM	This is a 'plot device' fight, pure and simple. You'll need to figure out how the DM wants you to win it, and do it that way, 'cause there's no other way.
ravenshrike 06-24-07, 10:14 PM	I know that illusions cannot use a breath weapon, and we do not want to give the dragon the orb, or he may use it to further his evil ways. I have come up with some of these plans. When the dragon comes back to the same place in bat form, the wizard may cast Power Word Kill or death(dont remember what it is off hand) on it, that may kill him. Or maybe to use the orb itself... Possibly lower the dragon's spell resistance... and planeshift him to pandemonium with Erythnuul, planeslocking him, ditching... I don't know.. I know a big problem is that his will save is insane, and will make it too hard to planeshift with him, unless someone can provide that link to the plan. I also thought of maybe bahamut, but he may send heralds at us and what not, where Erythnuul may simply just kill the dragon on the spot, not even wondering why he was there... being that he kills an endless amount of victims on his plane. I know that my DM is cruel for doing this, and its taking a large part of the fun out of the game. I do not want to be told to vote with feet, because I do not know any other gaming groups The real question is this... What's a player to do? Actually, depending on what level of wizard he was, it could have been an illusion. Yould have needed a major caster level boost and maybe widen metamagic to affect that large of an area though. Or it could have been a shadowcraft gnome, in which case you're screwed anyway.
MikEye 06-24-07, 10:16 PM	*grunts* That means no cash for dragon bane stuff and spell scrolls. Blah. Dragonomicon has some nice spells for hitting dragons with. Earth Bind, Scale Weakening, Suppress Breath Weapon, Lower Spell resistance all would work wonders in doing this. It would require knowing what you have in your party, but, theoretically, if you were prepared, you might be able to tackle a high level dragon IF you could get your hands on some high level scrolls and someone to risk casting them. All of those spells are 4th level or below, Lower Spell Resistance being the only 4th level spell of the bunch. It wouldn't KILL the dragon, but it would reduce it to a ground level melee monster instead of a flying death machine. I can get mad cash from the merchent's guild... They let me take out money, so what items specificaly do you reccommend?
HouseJaelre 06-24-07, 10:36 PM	Hey i play Louis, the cleric of Wee Jas in this campaign Just let me add a few things about the dm though so you guys can get an idea about the situation: The dm LOVES puzzles, mysteries etc etc, his campaigns are full of them, and tend to be more heavy on roleplaying than combat. So basically i see this as another puzzle of some sort, like if we could find a way to trick the dragon and get out alive, im sure he knew we couldnt kill it, so he wanted us to do something else. Unless of course it is not really a dragon by nature, and some sort of very clever spell caster. I doubt that but anyway, i figured a good plan would be to kill it in a weaker form like when its a bat, or just do something clever and witty. Im sure there is a way around this, i've played with this dm a few times before, and heard of his past campaigns, they are clever, not sedistic.
Xenocide 06-25-07, 01:25 AM	The real question is this... What's a player to do? Wet yourself.
Maekrix_Waere 06-25-07, 02:33 AM	Well, you said that it is an artefact, correct? Well, assuming your are able to get it before the Dragon eats you, I would use it's Plane Shifting power to teleport to Celestia, and ask...BEG them to help your with your Dragon problem. If you ask Bahamut, he would probably help you more than any of the other gods, in order to keep the artefact from falling into the hands of a servant of Tiamat. Probably around a 10% chance of Bahamut accompanying you personally, a 15% chance of him sending an avatar (Less divine powers, almost as much ownage) 15% chance of him sending one of his personal bodyguards, a 30% chance of it being a Celestial Great Wyrm Gold/Silver Dragon, and a 25% chance of him mentally contacting a Great Wyrm Metallic Dragon on the Material Plane, and asking it to assist you. Even if you DM doesn't do that, SOMEONE in Celestia will help you...They're (mostly) Lawful Good, for God's sake. If you can't get it before the dragon eats you, then, well, you're dead. Of course you could always just hide in a Metropolis. They'll have enough High-Level people to fight the Dragon off. You might have to retire, but, hey, you're not dead.
draco1119 06-25-07, 06:04 AM	Buy a Dragonbane sword with the Shatterspell ability. Or flee.
Leilond 06-25-07, 06:59 AM	There's no way your party can win that fight, at all The SR of a gargantuan red dragon (at least 24), is enought to prevent the casters to affect it with nearly any spell that allow SR Its saves (at least fort+36, Ref+23, Will+16) will nearly overcome every spell that casually overcome Its SR Its HP (at least 378) and his AC (at least 33), prevent the melee character to do enought damage to let it care Its bonus to hit (+38) and its damage (+12 strenght bonus and 4d6 bite, two 2d8 claws and so on... with power attack!) are enoght to take care of every character in few turns Without taking in account his 16d10 breath weapon, its 11 sorcerer levels and all special ability and attacks (CD 29 Frightful Presence) No, there must be something else you can do
bob_the_great 06-25-07, 08:03 AM	When DMs bring in powerful enemies you cannot defeat, bring in powerful NPCs that can defeat them. Even if they don't want to help you out of the kindness of their heart this artifact you're hunting down might convince them. Just make sure anyone you go to for help is LG (lawful means they'll keep up their end, good means they won't use the artifact for evil). I loved the previous suggestion of planeshifting to Celestia.
Matthew77 06-25-07, 08:40 AM	So you encountered a creature way way above your level, and managed to bluff it into leaving you alone. Now, you need to run. Run and Hide. Head to the nearest big city. If you can, get some scrying protection, items of non-detection. Maybe find the biggest good-aligned temple and beg them for a job in exchange for sanctuary in the temple. Honestly, I don't think a ancient red dragon is going to waste much effort on insignificant level 5 adventurers. He is more likely to try to divine the location of the artifact and go after that instead of trying to track you down. So flee, and you've got a great story to get some free drinks in the bar while you lay low for a while.
runestar 06-25-07, 08:43 AM	Quick - shout 'Pazuzu' 3 times...:D
_Jayne_Cobb_ 06-25-07, 11:51 AM	The real question is this... What's a player to do? Realize that not everyone is cut out to be a DM and start a new game.
nightwyrm 06-25-07, 12:44 PM	You recognize it as what it is - a plot device to spring board your party into an adventure that your dm has planned. Make a few snarky comments about rediculously powerful NPCs sending low level PCs on dangerous missions and then get on with the rest of the game.
kainpendragon 06-25-07, 01:21 PM	look for the artifact and give it to the dragon and let him and your epic wizard friend fight over it. while you run away :D better yet let your wizard friend know about the dragon and tell him you will search for the artfiact for him while he prepares to deal with the dragon.
MikEye 06-25-07, 01:39 PM	Not sure if he himself can actualy defeat the dragon, though
RobbyPants 06-25-07, 02:02 PM	No, but we all pooled our funds together and gave the wizard the materials needed to make an artifact similar to it, in which there is no failure chance, but he can only use it to go to planes he has been to already... meaning we could use something like it to drop the dragon in a hostile plane where he may not live Aaaah! :rant: Mortals don't make artifacts! This is a 'plot device' fight, pure and simple. You'll need to figure out how the DM wants you to win it, and do it that way, 'cause there's no other way. Sadly, I think this is the truth. Of course, it begs the question: why doesn't the shape-changing dragon obtain the artifact? These types of plots reak of suck and lose!
Derren S. 06-25-07, 05:37 PM	Might I ask why you even have to go back? You can cover a lot of ground in 2 months especially when you can planeshift. Get some nondetection items and relocate your homebase to Celestia (somewhere near Bahamuts palace would be good). Its very unlikely that the dragon can get you there. Just make sure your stays on other planes stays short, just long enough or a quest.
happy_fuzzy 06-25-07, 10:35 PM	Teleport it to another plane and send a willing person with it who will put a bag of holding inside a bag of holding upon arrival.
Maekrix_Waere 06-25-07, 11:29 PM	Teleport it to another plane and send a willing person with it who will put a bag of holding inside a bag of holding upon arrival. Do you mean a Bag of Holding inside a Portable Hole?
Aise 06-26-07, 12:50 AM	Wow...well um...3 ideas. First get the item, so that first but don't give it to the dragon until the very last moment. Maybe use it to flee from the dragon for awhile so it will take him a month or so to find you. then when you are high level enough find a good cave to set a trap in. Spend all of your money to buy whatever you need to catch this dragon. Then, this may require the sacerfice of one players life, take a portable hole and put it inside a bag of holding (or the other way around, i don't remember) that will open a rift in the plane and suck anything infront of it in. Hopefully that will include the dragon. You can then quickly transport to that plane by using the magic item and rescue any allies who were unfortiant enough not to get away. Second idea. Use a strong magical spell to, again after leveling up to as much as you can in thouse 2 months, wake up the Tarrasque. I know what your thinking, thats stupid, but this is how you do it. Open a rift to another plane infront of it, then wake it up, it should charge through the plane where another ally of yours has opened another rift to where this dragon's lair is. The Tarrasque should then rip that dragon apart, CRs be damned they lie. The Tarrasque can easily own any form of a red dragon, I've run it against another good dm. Even if the tarrasque fails it will put up a good fight at which point you go and finish the red dragon off. Third idea, take a bag of hold and...turn it inside out just outside of the dragon's lair and run. Don't look back, i don't know what actually happens but it can't be good.
wizarddog 06-26-07, 04:16 AM	This is your adventure. You must retrieve the Orb. Deal with it. You have limited choices on what you can do. Your solution is not to defeat the dragon (not yet). As you continue on this quest you may discover some way to get the upper hand on the dragon. Now is not the time. You are given 2 months. Worry about getting the artifact first. Then worry about the dragon.
Andorxor 06-26-07, 08:13 AM	What chance have they finding the artifact when a epic level wizard who searches his whole life for it,can't find it? -First i would hire bard to cast Legend Lore for more informations about the dragon -Than i would ask the epic friend for any additional informations that he can provides with his epic ranks in knowledge Arcana - Than i would use that information to: a) Find a replacement for the orb that the dragon wants more but is easier to find b) Find a equal powerfull enemy of the dragon and help him luring the dragon in a trap c) Find a realy good hiding place in case i can't find no a or b
Holy_Beholder 06-26-07, 10:22 AM	Second idea. Use a strong magical spell to, again after leveling up to as much as you can in thouse 2 months, wake up the Tarrasque. I know what your thinking, thats stupid, but this is how you do it. Open a rift to another plane infront of it, then wake it up, it should charge through the plane where another ally of yours has opened another rift to where this dragon's lair is. The Tarrasque should then rip that dragon apart, CRs be damned they lie. The Tarrasque can easily own any form of a red dragon, I've run it against another good dm. Even if the tarrasque fails it will put up a good fight at which point you go and finish the red dragon off. The dragon flies around using spells, breath weapons, dropping giant rocks, and other things. Tarrasque dies. Dragon keeps it dead, buries it, or something like that. Tarrasque wakes up trapped under 500 feet of stone. Dragon looks for who woke it up. Party is screwed. Of course, if you can talk a pair of Solars in Celestia to attack the dragon, your good.
tankschmidt 06-26-07, 11:48 AM	I know that my DM is cruel for doing this, and its taking a large part of the fun out of the game. You are likely to be at the mercy of your horrid DM either way though. Realize that not everyone is cut out to be a DM and start a new game. These types of plots reak of suck and lose! What are you guys talking about?! This sounds like a ton of fun. The DM has set up a situation where the PC's have to use their heads instead of wading through mindless combat. You're level five; why would you want to fight a troll when you could be wiping the world of the evil scourge of a gargantuan red dragon. The dm LOVES puzzles, mysteries etc etc, his campaigns are full of them, and tend to be more heavy on roleplaying than combat. So basically i see this as another puzzle of some sort, like if we could find a way to trick the dragon and get out alive, im sure he knew we couldnt kill it, so he wanted us to do something else. Unless of course it is not really a dragon by nature, and some sort of very clever spell caster. I doubt that but anyway, i figured a good plan would be to kill it in a weaker form like when its a bat, or just do something clever and witty. See what I mean? This sounds like fun. Head to a library, and do some research. Gargantuan dragons don't grow up overnight, and he must have made some enemies sometime. This dragon is probably intended to be the capstone of the campaign, so you have a direction to work towards. Take this step by step, and be patient. The way will become clear with time. If you do have to fight, you'll have done plenty of research, so hopefully you can get the drop on this guy. Besides -- assuming you are playing 3x D&D -- in two months you'll probably be level 15 anyway. ;) Contrary to popular belief, DM's don't like to kill characters, and we especially don't like TPK's.
MikEye 06-26-07, 11:53 AM	We've been playing since new year's eve and I just hit level 6.
Mindolin 06-26-07, 12:08 PM	Get that artifact, and plane shift to the Astral Plane. Time does not pass there, so you can spend months training. If you play your cards right, you can be an epic level character and then go find the dragon for a friendly chat. And watch a single fighter beat the dragon to nothing.
Aucturos 06-26-07, 12:47 PM	My amusement grows at the people who think because of the limited information available the GM must be some sort of power-hungry socially-defunct loser... Nein, we don't know that much yet. The dragon is obviously a plot hook (it might not even be a dragon!) and he was using the players to plan his next move for adventuring. Orb of something or other? Wonderful idea players, now to design the devious dungeon! Heck, you might come back a few weeks later hearing that the dragon was slain while trying to break into a local royal treasury after some sort of artifact... Or perhaps you meet the dragon within the dungeon trying to get it himself, but because it's a very narrow and short room where you meet, the dragon can't shapeshift out of their smaller form and must fight in a weaker state! Maybe there's a bounty out for the dragon's head of a decently large sum, then all you'd need to do is use your nifty orb to bring a miniature army down on the dragon's head! Maybe the dragon KNOWS where the orb is, but for some enchantment can't obtain it, so they're using your party as lackeys... The point being: Don't listen to the dimwits who think you need to switch campaigns. If you're enjoying it, enjoy it. So far you know very few things: 1- Where the Artifact MIGHT be. 2- The time in which you need to get it. 3- The Dragon, for some reason, cannot get it themselves. 4- This Dragon is rather powerful. That's it. That's all. Nothing else. Nothing. The rest is assumption, and as a few people have proven in this thread, sometimes when you assume you make an "ass out of you and me".
_Jayne_Cobb_ 06-26-07, 04:50 PM	The point being: Don't listen to the dimwits who think you need to switch campaigns. But especially do not listen to anyone so arrogant they label anyone that holds an opinion that differs from their own as "dimwits."
bob_the_great 06-26-07, 05:23 PM	My amusement grows at the people who think because of the limited information available the GM must be some sort of power-hungry socially-defunct loser... Nein, we don't know that much yet. I can make that assumption pretty quickly using my past experience. I've played quite a few games with super-powerful enemies. With good DMs we were able to choose whether or not to oppose them (I had one DM who for months was trying to get us to go to The Necromancer's Island. We finally went, came across the big bad necromancer, and chose to leave without ever opposing her). Bad DMs tend to give you no other choice. You're walking down the road and this super-powerful person decides to take a destructive interest in the lives of an insignificant party. The way the OP described it pointed to the latter.
Aucturos 06-26-07, 06:36 PM	But especially do not listen to anyone so arrogant they label anyone that holds an opinion that differs from their own as "dimwits." Perhaps you should try again. :P I said don't listen to those saying, "Leave! He's a jerk!" because they don't know what's going to happen, and have never met the guy. To quote another player in the same campaign: Originally Posted by HouseJaelre The dm LOVES puzzles, mysteries etc etc, his campaigns are full of them, and tend to be more heavy on roleplaying than combat. So basically i see this as another puzzle of some sort, like if we could find a way to trick the dragon and get out alive, im sure he knew we couldnt kill it, so he wanted us to do something else. Unless of course it is not really a dragon by nature, and some sort of very clever spell caster. I doubt that but anyway, i figured a good plan would be to kill it in a weaker form like when its a bat, or just do something clever and witty. Again, it does NOT sound like the typical, "My DM set us up against a Great Wyrm Red Dragon at level 5 because he's on a power trip." In all probability, this DM has something planned, and a REASON why they saw the dragon that early. Most DM's/GM's don't willy-nilly throw a dragon at the party that early on without a specific reason. Personally, I've designed campaigns where the players met the BBEG very early on, while he was still rather powerful, and he used them to fetch items of renown power in order to feed his own machinations... He may not have threatened to kill them right off, but the idea is the same. Just because the Red Dragon is there, doesn't mean the DM is bad, nor does it mean that the Op should leave the campaign immediately. At the very least, I'd stick around to see if it picks up. If it starts turning out that he really is throwing NPC's that are too hard at the group, then sure, leave... But, as I said in my original post: We know absolutely jack. The people crying heresy and yelling at the Op to leave have, more often than not, thought about it for all of 30 seconds before typing a rash reply and taking the knee-jerk reaction as their stance. That's not only dimwitted in this particularly setting, but ultimately rude to the DM. I mean, imagine having this long, elaborate, carefully detailed and balanced quest line all set out and ready for the next session after utilizing the Red Dragon as a plot device, only to have two of your players quit because they came here and were told that you sucked as a DM, were a loser, and needed to be taught a lesson without ever evaluating the situation with more than a cursory glance? So, yes... Feel free to comment on my remarks all you wish. I do not begrudge others with differing opinions, but I will constantly point out stupidity. I can make that assumption pretty quickly using my past experience. I've played quite a few games with super-powerful enemies. With good DMs we were able to choose whether or not to oppose them (I had one DM who for months was trying to get us to go to The Necromancer's Island. We finally went, came across the big bad necromancer, and chose to leave without ever opposing her). Bad DMs tend to give you no other choice. You're walking down the road and this super-powerful person decides to take a destructive interest in the lives of an insignificant party. The way the OP described it pointed to the latter. Granted, yes, it does immediately sound that way. The DM may be attempting to railroad the PC's into something, and this situation would be an effective, albeit annoying, way to do it. However, we simply don't quite know yet. There's just a lack of information. If the pattern continues, I would be the first to suggest either encouraging the DM to change the setup or to start the Op's own campaign, but I'd rather wait a bit. Maybe see what happens the next session or two if the Op can wait that long. If it's really making it less fun, no one in the world would blame him for leaving (that's just common sense), but it actually sounds like at least a decently interesting adventure, knowing the DM involved is a fan of puzzles and the such. Done well, it will be fun, but if it turns sour, by all means, walk out.
Magrus 06-26-07, 07:24 PM	What are you guys talking about?! I am assuming you missed my first post in this thread, the first few sentences? The one where I mentioned that this isn't the first, nor the second thread that I have posted in with instances where the DM isn't handling his job well with the game. I haven't even posted in all of the ones I've found, there's more out there! It's not a personal position or flavor thing. When a player is being treated unfairly, singled out and risking death by DM fiat for the DM not liking the character class the player chose, or for not controlling other players who ruin the game situation with the OP regularly, there is a problem. If it were a simple issue where someone says "i have a problem with a weird plot hook, help!" it would be a different story. However, this is a DM that can't work his magic. It's not an isolated change in the program to give things a bit of kick and flare. It's yet another situation that cropped up in a string of bad DM choices, which creates a disturbing lack of faith in the ability of the one in charge to provide a decent game.
HouseJaelre 06-27-07, 02:55 PM	Ok for all of you who say "why doesnt the dragon get it himself, and why cant the wizard" Obviously the DM has that coverd, the orb has a trap built in, the orb gives off a field thing, its like a sensor, if anyone casts a spell that might help to find the orb (true seeing, detect magic etc etc) will trigger the orb to dissappear, my character sat around and figured out how it works: When you cast a spell, you open a rift in the planes to channel enegry from the plane the spell came from, like fireball, you cast fireball, and for that amount of time, a ball of flame is gone from the plane of fire. Now then, when that rift pops open, the orb jumps in through it, and stays on that plane. So seeing as i know how the trap works, i just had this idea: We give the orb to the dragon(yes we had to find it), then when the dragon is asleep or something, we cast a locate spell of some sort, the orb vanishes, and we go to that same plane we knew it hoped to (obviously after studying the orb, our epic wizard should be able to figure out exactly how that trap works, to find it even faster after it disappears) And yes, it is a plot hook, the DM outright said so 50 times, and whenever we mentioned killing it, he rolled his eyes.
HouseJaelre 06-27-07, 03:02 PM	I am assuming you missed my first post in this thread, the first few sentences? The one where I mentioned that this isn't the first, nor the second thread that I have posted in with instances where the DM isn't handling his job well with the game. I haven't even posted in all of the ones I've found, there's more out there! It's not a personal position or flavor thing. When a player is being treated unfairly, singled out and risking death by DM fiat for the DM not liking the character class the player chose, or for not controlling other players who ruin the game situation with the OP regularly, there is a problem. If it were a simple issue where someone says "i have a problem with a weird plot hook, help!" it would be a different story. However, this is a DM that can't work his magic. It's not an isolated change in the program to give things a bit of kick and flare. It's yet another situation that cropped up in a string of bad DM choices, which creates a disturbing lack of faith in the ability of the one in charge to provide a decent game. Actually, he's been dming since 1997 i think, and the OP is the only person i know to complain, why? its personality. the OP likes the cleche lets go kill stuff campaign. the DM however, likes to add puzzles, challanges and otherstuff, but also includes combat, he wants it to be exciting and thrilling, but also challanging. And i've read all other posts, they are just him ranting because you see, the party is really big (about 20 people) and its just hard to DM that, its in a public store so its kinda wrong to kick out people, and also, most of hte party is disruptive, non-productive and well...bad players (save about 6 of us). All of htis is what is making the campaign miserable, not the DM, he put HOURS of work into this, no joke, half his laptops hard-drive is this DND campaign. You can tell its well designed, its just the party is ruining it, and the OP does not like the way the DM deals with it, its a simple personality clash. The OP has called me many times saying "im thinking about quitting", IMO he just has a lousy attitude about it.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 06-27-07, 04:09 PM	Perhaps you should try again. :P No need, I got it right the first time. I said don't listen to those saying, "Leave! He's a jerk!" because they don't know what's going to happen, and have never met the guy. Precisely, which is why we can only go on what we do know. As more information becomes available then our assessment could very well change, perhaps quite dramatically, but based on the info currently known it sounds like ham-fisted railroading and DM power-tripping.
Aucturos 06-27-07, 05:25 PM	Precisely, which is why we can only go on what we do know. As more information becomes available then our assessment could very well change, perhaps quite dramatically, but based on the info currently known it sounds like ham-fisted railroading and DM power-tripping. Take a glance at the two posts above yours by HouseJaelre.
MikEye 06-29-07, 02:33 AM	Thanks for all the responses, I don't really want to leave, for the record because I have friends that play in the campagin... my house friend is correct, the DM does work on the campaign a lot, and if he read all my posts, all 2 of them concerning the campaign (besides this one) have been about XP ruling and class ability misconceptions. Now I would just like to ask if we can keep it on topic, topic being a way to get rid of the dragon via planeshifting, and I think I like the one utilizing the Astral plane.
ein9 06-29-07, 03:50 AM	Hey i play Louis, the cleric of Wee Jas in this campaign Just let me add a few things about the dm though so you guys can get an idea about the situation: The dm LOVES puzzles, mysteries etc etc, his campaigns are full of them, and tend to be more heavy on roleplaying than combat. So basically i see this as another puzzle of some sort, like if we could find a way to trick the dragon and get out alive, im sure he knew we couldnt kill it, so he wanted us to do something else. Unless of course it is not really a dragon by nature, and some sort of very clever spell caster. I doubt that but anyway, i figured a good plan would be to kill it in a weaker form like when its a bat, or just do something clever and witty. Im sure there is a way around this, i've played with this dm a few times before, and heard of his past campaigns, they are clever, not sedistic. If you can trick a dragon, your DM is not playing them right. I see it as two possible solutions. 1) Its an illusion. Major Image allows you to replicate the thermal effects of something, and the DM may be fudging it a bit to scare the crap out of your guys, or is reading the rules wrong. Go into the cave with appropriate precautions like true seeing, yada yada. Its Unlikely, but possible. 2) It's real, and you need to find a way to kill it. The above mentioned scrolls other users mentioned would work. You could try shifting him to a plain of water or ice. Maybe you can find a powerful Cleric of Kord to help you out (those guys hate dragons). Raise an army from the surrounding area. Try collapsing the roof of the cave on its head. Maybe you could go on a quest to find an Orb of Dragonkind? Build a duplicate item that is actually set to blow with all kinds of anti-magic goodness up once the dragon plane shifts or you guys leave the cave? Dragons are evil, so he may kill you once you have the item anyway... In that case, fight and hope for the best...
Eater_Of_Souls 06-29-07, 03:56 AM	Tricking dragon with the ball isn't likely hard, hard is surviving tricking the dragon :P Might also do well to find out what does the dragon want with that ball and I doubt it's just to have some more treasure.
Johnny_Angel 06-29-07, 04:00 AM	Run away
Generic_NPC 06-29-07, 06:38 AM	Get that artifact, and plane shift to the Astral Plane. Time does not pass there, so you can spend months training. If you play your cards right, you can be an epic level character and then go find the dragon for a friendly chat. And watch a single fighter beat the dragon to nothing. What is this DBZ or D&D? But seriously, make something like a fake version that allows a chance of failure. Give it to him, in the hopes that the eventual failure will be catastrophic enough to either destroy him or strand him on some alternate plane until you can match up to his CR.
Amon_WinterfallIV 06-29-07, 05:19 PM	I'm sorry, but I don't think you can kill the Red Dragon under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Yes, its a plot device, but that doesn't make it any more mortal. Giving the orb to the dragon isn't necessarily going to save your lives either--Its CE, after all. As for its abilities, you guys are up against a mid level caster that has the ability to change form repeatedly-- you've been owned. Fleeing to Celestia with the orb might be a good choice, but the Dragon is still going to be able to get you there unless you can get some really powerful guy's help on that world. And then your in a siege situation--the Red Dragon simply waits you out. And you can't well retire in Bahamut's Planar Catherdral, can you?? The way out of this is trying to lose the dragon. Here's how: Alter Self/Permancy to change your appearance for good. Limited Wish to derail all 4th/5th? level divination effects--possibly dump them on someone else. Immediately leave the area completely and never return, also assume different names and occupations. Now, there is no way to Gather Info against the party, no easy divination (opposes the Limited Wish), and the dragon can torment some other saps in this situation. You're in no position to fight the dragon; but evading it might be doable. Good Luck!
Anodai 06-29-07, 06:19 PM	I agree with Amon. its probably not a real dragon. And if it is, you said there were 20 people in your group, right? he may just be trying to compensate.
Magrus 06-30-07, 08:34 AM	Actually, he's been dming since 1997 i think, and the OP is the only person i know to complain, why? its personality. the OP likes the cleche lets go kill stuff campaign. the DM however, likes to add puzzles, challanges and otherstuff, but also includes combat, he wants it to be exciting and thrilling, but also challanging. And i've read all other posts, they are just him ranting because you see, the party is really big (about 20 people) and its just hard to DM that, its in a public store so its kinda wrong to kick out people, and also, most of hte party is disruptive, non-productive and well...bad players (save about 6 of us). All of htis is what is making the campaign miserable, not the DM, he put HOURS of work into this, no joke, half his laptops hard-drive is this DND campaign. You can tell its well designed, its just the party is ruining it, and the OP does not like the way the DM deals with it, its a simple personality clash. The OP has called me many times saying "im thinking about quitting", IMO he just has a lousy attitude about it. Hmm, allowing bad players to ruin your game continuously is a bad move as a DM as well. When a DM doesn't step up to the plate and say "You, stop that or you are out of my game. You are ruining the fun for everyone else, including myself" there is a problem. However, with this added info, perhaps he isn't as bad as I thought. Personality and taste do lead to conflicts. I've met some people that really are great gamers, that I just wouldn't to play with due to how they rub me the wrong way. That being said, as a DM myself, and sometime player, when I am in a game where a player is causing incessant disruptions for myself and the other players...I tend to drop subtle hints the player isn't wanted. When the DM doesn't take up the role of booting folks, I motion for the guy to get the picture. Depending on exactly how the disruptions are occuring, it effects how I react. If they are purely out of game issues, such as someone acting crude and offending someone out of game, I deal with it out of game. If they are ruining it IN game, I react IN game. If you've got people in your group doing stupid crap with their characters constantly, rain hell down on their characters. Your characters are in perhaps the most dangerous profession in the game world. Screw ups cause death. Hence, a walking screw up shouldn't be allowed near other adventurers. Let him be pulled down and chewed on the next time a pack of something surrounds him. Shrug and say "Well, there were all of those times he nearly got us killed. He's finally doing something useful and acting as bait while we run away to safety." It may teach the player a lesson in how to play better. If these guys are ruining the game in out of character things, tell them. Lay into the idiot, and mention all of the time the DM spends on the game, and how they are ruining it for everyone. Personally, I get mad when someone ruins one of my games after all of the work I spend on making them fun for people. Maybe your DM doesn't care. Even so, you are investing time in the game too, just by being there. It's your right to make your thoughts known and get a decent game out of the mix.
MikEye 07-03-07, 02:45 AM	Like he said, its a public game store, so he can't boot people. We all purchased one book as an entrance fee and that is what allows us to play there, but unfortunately I think that is what should give the DM even more of a right to kick people out, but that's not the case. And I personaly think that housejaelre is trying to make me sound incompetent by making my posts on an appropriate forum (where you ask other players for advice) sound like silly rants. This is not the case. Just about everything I said is true, and what you make of it is simply drawn by context and personal opinion.
buzzsawl 07-03-07, 04:28 AM	I agree with Amon. its probably not a real dragon. And if it is, you said there were 20 people in your group, right? he may just be trying to compensate. Holy Crap yes... And I thought that 5-8 was hard to compensate for CR-wise... 20 Players! I'd be drafting Co-Dms at that point ("You and you and you...your characters died...now help"). PS - Everyone should take Leadership at lvl 6 and kill the dragon w/ a small army
holylink718 07-03-07, 09:54 AM	No, but we all pooled our funds together and gave the wizard the materials needed to make an artifact similar to it, in which there is no failure chance, but he can only use it to go to planes he has been to already... meaning we could use something like it to drop the dragon in a hostile plane where he may not live I haven't read any farther past this post, but I've got an idea. What about making the "fake orb" a one-use item? Let him pick his destination, and let him be stuck there until he can find another way off the plane.
Bruunwald 07-03-07, 03:15 PM	You've been given 2 months in-game, which translates to a possible 240 encounters (before factoring in trips to dimensions where time moves differently) with less powerful creatures to gain enough levels to face this dragon, and to work out a plan to help you succeed. Your DM did nothing wrong at all. He gave you a longterm goal (facing this dragon whether or not you ever find the orb), and he gave you time to work in towards achieving that goal. And as far as I can see, nothing is stopping you from running away. Now, his style of presentation and narrowness of scope are a bit clumsy, and not to my personal tastes. I would prefer a broader world in which to work. But acting like you've been railroaded just because a bully threatened your character and you decided to take him seriously is just silly. Remember, the DM HAS to play people who issue you ultimatums. That's his job. Part of your job is to know the difference between a DM issuing an ultimatum, and a big red dragon issuing one. There are plenty of games out there where a character or whole party is living their lives, trying to pretend that they don't have a price on their heads or a deathmark of some kind. This is just one of those campaigns. My advice is simple. Choose one: 1. Quit griping. Run away and hope the dragon doesn't come looking for you in two months. 2. Quit griping. Go out and buff yourselves up by fighting everything that moves while searching out this artifact. 3. Quit griping. Go out and buff yourselves up by fighting everything that moves with no intention of handing anything over to the dragon but a good butt-whoopin'.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-03-07, 04:09 PM	I'll just take this as your peace offering and admission of incorrect assumptions on your side, and let it slide. ;) :D If it was indeed simply a miscommunication then I am happy to let it die. Cheers. :)
WizO_Cat 07-03-07, 10:54 PM	And to make sure it doesn't flare up again, just a reminder to keep your posts on the subject of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise, it may be moderated as Baiting, something that is against the Code of Conduct. Thank you.
Psikerlord 07-03-07, 11:49 PM	Personally, sounds like an annoying setup to me, almost as bad as a forced capture scenario (classic DM mistake no. 1). If you don't mind dying in a blaze of glory, I'd buy all the anti-dragon gear you can, level up as quick as you can, and prepare to kick that dragon's scaley butt. Call in all your favours, all your contacts, from everywhere and everyone. Go to city leaders and tell them how much treasure is going to be involved when they help you kill this beast. Go to all the LG temples and recruit every last paladin you can. Find out who the dragon's enemies are and recruit them too, they might even help for free. Bring along your all powerful wizard friend. Then meet Big red in a nice clear field, have your friends ready to teleport in (or whatever you think will work), and raze nine kinds of hell on your tormentors ugly butt... And when you die, not only will bards sing songs your glorious defeat for years to come... your DM will know your group does not put up with (extended) forced scenarios. TO THE BITTER END!!!
Damuna 07-04-07, 01:43 AM	I can't remember if somone suggested this (I read through the thread yesterday), but why don't you use augury with a question asking about the outcome of not succumbing to the dragon's demands? This is likely to be very helpful, as you can reasonably estimate the outcomes of your actions. For example: Weal: The dragon is either not real or it isn't coming for you. Woe: The dragon is quite probably real, and you will have to deal with it.