Generalist fighter - How To? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Generalist fighter - How To? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
clarkvalentine
11-30-06, 03:28 PM I'm playing a non-caster in an on-again, off-again Eberron game. Nobody, GM or player, is terribly interested in optimizing out the wazoo, so this seems a good place to try out a generalist fighter, a concept I've been wanting to play for a while.

Basically, I don't want my fighter to be a one-trick pony. I'd like him to be good with a bow as well as good with a sword/axe/flail/whatever he picks up.

How would you pull this off, mechanically? I have my ideas, but I'm looking for some outside input - I'm shooting for versatile and fun to play, a PC with a lot of tricks up his sleeve, not one that's super-optimized.
etraikov
11-30-06, 03:33 PM Take some generalist feats that are always useful. Stuff like improved initiative and quick draw are always nice to have.
clarkvalentine
11-30-06, 03:41 PM Yeah, those are good all-purpose feats.

Hmm. It's probable there really isn't any more to this beyond the obvious choices: Improved Init and Quick Draw, enough archery feats to be useful (PB Shot+ Precise Shot), Power Attack to be useful with the longsword, consider multiclassing with rogue, etc.
Bruunwald
11-30-06, 03:46 PM Improved Unarmed Strike comes to mind. Dodge always seemed a piddly feat to me, but if you qualify and can take Mobility off of that, you have a guy who can change out weapons and get around more effectively.
Dei
11-30-06, 04:03 PM I'd go for combat expertise and then the feats that it opens up, improved disarm, improved bull rush, etc, are all very useful, multi-purpose feats to have. Improved Initiative is also handy but not greatly so, particularly as you won't be bumping it up with a high dex considering you're playing a fighter. Quick Draw is also a solid choice.

Dodge and Mobility are nice to have but there are better choices out there so only take them if there's nothing else that catches your eye. Improved unarmed strike can be good but considering that you'll normally be wearing gauntlets and thus be considered armed it's not essential and with your high BAB and str you don't really need the stuff it opens up like improved grappel.

You will still want to grab the more classic Power Attack and Cleave though as they will come in handy with any melee weapon, shield bash can be fun too if you find yourself in a situation to use it but it does require a bit of commitment to use effectively so may not be the best option for versatility. Hope this helps.
Whisper_Swiftblade
11-30-06, 04:11 PM Yuo may want to make your weapon focus on club. This will let you gain from the focuse for both a ranged and melee weapon.
clarkvalentine
11-30-06, 04:16 PM Hmm... I like the thought of Expertise/Imp. Disarm. Good call. *puts on his "To Be Considered" list*

Improved Initiative is also handy but not greatly so, particularly as you won't be bumping it up with a high dex considering you're playing a fighter. ... Improved unarmed strike can be good but considering that you'll normally be wearing gauntlets and thus be considered armed it's not essential and with your high BAB and str you don't really need the stuff it opens up like improved grappel.

Actually, both his Dex and Str are very good (over 16), and he likely won't be wearing gauntlets. I hadn't thought of grappling... you mentioned it in the negative, but that's something I'll look into as well.
Matthew77
11-30-06, 04:16 PM My suggestion would be Warblade from the Tome of Battle.

Use maneuvers for melee tricks, and use your feats to improve ranged attacks.
Dei
11-30-06, 04:23 PM Hmm... I like the thought of Expertise/Imp. Disarm. Good call. *puts on his "To Be Considered" list*

Actually, both his Dex and Str are very good (over 16), and he likely won't be wearing gauntlets. I hadn't thought of grappling... you mentioned it in the negative, but that's something I'll look into as well.

Won't be wearing gauntlets? Why ever not? They come as part of most medium or heavier suits of armour anyway. But I digress, improved grapple is useful, very, very useful. But only insofar as you concentrate on making it useful. I had a fighter who used it and the reaping mauler PrC (complete warrior if you want to have a gander) who was nigh unbeatable at equal CR but he was only that way because he specialised in it. By all means take it, I can highly recommend the grapple route but be aware that it takes a lot of work which I gather is not what you're looking for.
starfire311
11-30-06, 04:31 PM ok I would go with Quick Draw as my #1 most important feat for a generalist, so you can switch weapons fast when you need to so you can.

Other feats I wold like at would be the combat focus line In PHB2.

Also all the improved feats, like improved initiative, Improved Disarm, Improved sunder, Improved grapple.

You would want some ranged feats, like PB shot and Precise shot(this may not be necessary though since most times you are using range it will be ebacuse you can not get to melee, and thus your target will probably not eb in melee).

Mounted combat would be nice so you can compete while mounted.

1st level human fighter I would take: Combat focus, Point Blank Shot, and Quick Draw
THETUNNELRAT
11-30-06, 04:40 PM I always liked the Combat expertises + Improved Trip +improved Disarm combo ,and don't discount the Quarterstaff its a great weapon. I like to keep my DM on her toes in combat with alot on maneuvers. Oh ,if want to keep the enemy relay guessing take the Psi Warrior class and the power Call weaponry or weapon I cant remember which it was. :fight!: :tiphat:
clarkvalentine
11-30-06, 04:43 PM Won't be wearing gauntlets? Why ever not? They come as part of most medium or heavier suits of armour anyway.

Purely for campaign flavor reasons. The PCs are members of a guild of private investigators in Fairhaven, he wears light armor so he doesn't clank around like a junk wagon.
THETUNNELRAT
11-30-06, 04:46 PM Check you PM:D
High Octane
11-30-06, 05:57 PM Carry a 1 handed weapon, a 2 handed weapon, a shield, and a ranged weapon.

Get weapon focus in the 2 handed weapon and the ranged weapon. If the ranged weapon is a crossbow get rapid reload. Get Improved Critical on the 2 Handed Weapon. Save some keen oil for the ranged weapon's ammo.

Get Combat Expertise, improved init, and quick draw. Also Get power attack and if you have feats left over, cleave.

With Weapon Focus In the 2 handed weapon and ranged weapon, you are guaranteed to hit more, meaning more damage. The Ranged attack bonus helps you fight well verse enemies outside your reach. Power attack works well with the 2 handed weapon for mass damage, giving a great return on your damage for bonus to hit lost.

Carrying a shield and 1 handed weapon allows you to switch from mass damage to great tank in an instant( Thanks to quick draw) So you can keep yourself alive while keeping the enemy away from your other heavy hitters. A Shield combines great with combat expertise to make you hard as hell to hit. You dont need to waste a feat on getting weapon focus in the 1 handed weapon, you arent trying to do damage in that circumstance.

The Improved critical on the 2 hander works great since you will probably be using it more than any other weapon, so it saves on keen oil or getting that keen bonus, which isnt available for all weapons anyway. If you want you can get improved sunder and get an adamantine weapon. That will slice through anything your opponent might have, but that cuts down on your loot AND only works against enemies with a non-natural weapon.

Improved toughness works great for everything.

So with all that you have excellant damage capability in melee while being able to switch to tanking almost immediately, and have a decent level of ranged attack ability, be able to act quicker, and be a tough one.

You can always get weapon specialization later. Nowhere does it say you have to recieve the feats as a fighter to get weapon specialization. You can get it 10 levels later that you take in a prestige class if you like. Weapon specialization in ranged attacks is substantially better at tipping the odds in your favor since ranged atatcks tend to be weaker on both sides, and the damage bonus is +2 regardless of the weapon type. Weapon specialization will give you a larger percentage increase of damage on that weapon.

As a side note, I would take composite longbows. They can be made to add + strength to the attack bonus and damage, and as a fighter you will probably have that maxed out. Also, get a cheap composite bow (+1 at best) and get real nice ammo. You wont be using the ammo often so you can get it cheap. Whats more, your strength bonus will be consistently changing, so your composite longbow wont get the full benefit of your new improved strength from an item, tome, or level, so it will have to be replaced in a couple of levels usually anyway.

Edit: Remember, shields dont cause Armor Check Penalties unless they are on your arm.
Thubby
12-01-06, 11:35 PM get to far shot (with javelin). take 2 wpn fting feats, large spiked steal shield, imp shield bash (with the bashing magic ability its 2d6), pwr atk/cleave, and maybe expertise tree. (of you dont get the idea, take the best of one tree, then move to the next one)
it plays VERY tactical. your full plate/shield combo makes you hard to hit, but slow, the javelins at 60ft make up for that (thats max range of 300). the normal low dmg of sword shield builds is overridden by the 2 wpn fighting, and imp shield bash keeps the armor. trick feats (trip, disarm, etc.) have their overall uses, and having options open is amazing. hello spartan!
you have 2 braud options, take no trick feats, to avoid 1 trick pony (imp init, quick draw, etc.) or take all the trick feats, it takes a while, but is alot of fun.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clarkvalentine 11-30-06, 03:28 PM	I'm playing a non-caster in an on-again, off-again Eberron game. Nobody, GM or player, is terribly interested in optimizing out the wazoo, so this seems a good place to try out a generalist fighter, a concept I've been wanting to play for a while. Basically, I don't want my fighter to be a one-trick pony. I'd like him to be good with a bow as well as good with a sword/axe/flail/whatever he picks up. How would you pull this off, mechanically? I have my ideas, but I'm looking for some outside input - I'm shooting for versatile and fun to play, a PC with a lot of tricks up his sleeve, not one that's super-optimized.
etraikov 11-30-06, 03:33 PM	Take some generalist feats that are always useful. Stuff like improved initiative and quick draw are always nice to have.
clarkvalentine 11-30-06, 03:41 PM	Yeah, those are good all-purpose feats. Hmm. It's probable there really isn't any more to this beyond the obvious choices: Improved Init and Quick Draw, enough archery feats to be useful (PB Shot+ Precise Shot), Power Attack to be useful with the longsword, consider multiclassing with rogue, etc.
Bruunwald 11-30-06, 03:46 PM	Improved Unarmed Strike comes to mind. Dodge always seemed a piddly feat to me, but if you qualify and can take Mobility off of that, you have a guy who can change out weapons and get around more effectively.
Dei 11-30-06, 04:03 PM	I'd go for combat expertise and then the feats that it opens up, improved disarm, improved bull rush, etc, are all very useful, multi-purpose feats to have. Improved Initiative is also handy but not greatly so, particularly as you won't be bumping it up with a high dex considering you're playing a fighter. Quick Draw is also a solid choice. Dodge and Mobility are nice to have but there are better choices out there so only take them if there's nothing else that catches your eye. Improved unarmed strike can be good but considering that you'll normally be wearing gauntlets and thus be considered armed it's not essential and with your high BAB and str you don't really need the stuff it opens up like improved grappel. You will still want to grab the more classic Power Attack and Cleave though as they will come in handy with any melee weapon, shield bash can be fun too if you find yourself in a situation to use it but it does require a bit of commitment to use effectively so may not be the best option for versatility. Hope this helps.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-30-06, 04:11 PM	Yuo may want to make your weapon focus on club. This will let you gain from the focuse for both a ranged and melee weapon.
clarkvalentine 11-30-06, 04:16 PM	Hmm... I like the thought of Expertise/Imp. Disarm. Good call. puts on his "To Be Considered" list Improved Initiative is also handy but not greatly so, particularly as you won't be bumping it up with a high dex considering you're playing a fighter. ... Improved unarmed strike can be good but considering that you'll normally be wearing gauntlets and thus be considered armed it's not essential and with your high BAB and str you don't really need the stuff it opens up like improved grappel. Actually, both his Dex and Str are very good (over 16), and he likely won't be wearing gauntlets. I hadn't thought of grappling... you mentioned it in the negative, but that's something I'll look into as well.
Matthew77 11-30-06, 04:16 PM	My suggestion would be Warblade from the Tome of Battle. Use maneuvers for melee tricks, and use your feats to improve ranged attacks.
Dei 11-30-06, 04:23 PM	Hmm... I like the thought of Expertise/Imp. Disarm. Good call. puts on his "To Be Considered" list Actually, both his Dex and Str are very good (over 16), and he likely won't be wearing gauntlets. I hadn't thought of grappling... you mentioned it in the negative, but that's something I'll look into as well. Won't be wearing gauntlets? Why ever not? They come as part of most medium or heavier suits of armour anyway. But I digress, improved grapple is useful, very, very useful. But only insofar as you concentrate on making it useful. I had a fighter who used it and the reaping mauler PrC (complete warrior if you want to have a gander) who was nigh unbeatable at equal CR but he was only that way because he specialised in it. By all means take it, I can highly recommend the grapple route but be aware that it takes a lot of work which I gather is not what you're looking for.
starfire311 11-30-06, 04:31 PM	ok I would go with Quick Draw as my #1 most important feat for a generalist, so you can switch weapons fast when you need to so you can. Other feats I wold like at would be the combat focus line In PHB2. Also all the improved feats, like improved initiative, Improved Disarm, Improved sunder, Improved grapple. You would want some ranged feats, like PB shot and Precise shot(this may not be necessary though since most times you are using range it will be ebacuse you can not get to melee, and thus your target will probably not eb in melee). Mounted combat would be nice so you can compete while mounted. 1st level human fighter I would take: Combat focus, Point Blank Shot, and Quick Draw
THETUNNELRAT 11-30-06, 04:40 PM	I always liked the Combat expertises + Improved Trip +improved Disarm combo ,and don't discount the Quarterstaff its a great weapon. I like to keep my DM on her toes in combat with alot on maneuvers. Oh ,if want to keep the enemy relay guessing take the Psi Warrior class and the power Call weaponry or weapon I cant remember which it was. :fight!: :tiphat:
clarkvalentine 11-30-06, 04:43 PM	Won't be wearing gauntlets? Why ever not? They come as part of most medium or heavier suits of armour anyway. Purely for campaign flavor reasons. The PCs are members of a guild of private investigators in Fairhaven, he wears light armor so he doesn't clank around like a junk wagon.
THETUNNELRAT 11-30-06, 04:46 PM	Check you PM:D
High Octane 11-30-06, 05:57 PM	Carry a 1 handed weapon, a 2 handed weapon, a shield, and a ranged weapon. Get weapon focus in the 2 handed weapon and the ranged weapon. If the ranged weapon is a crossbow get rapid reload. Get Improved Critical on the 2 Handed Weapon. Save some keen oil for the ranged weapon's ammo. Get Combat Expertise, improved init, and quick draw. Also Get power attack and if you have feats left over, cleave. With Weapon Focus In the 2 handed weapon and ranged weapon, you are guaranteed to hit more, meaning more damage. The Ranged attack bonus helps you fight well verse enemies outside your reach. Power attack works well with the 2 handed weapon for mass damage, giving a great return on your damage for bonus to hit lost. Carrying a shield and 1 handed weapon allows you to switch from mass damage to great tank in an instant( Thanks to quick draw) So you can keep yourself alive while keeping the enemy away from your other heavy hitters. A Shield combines great with combat expertise to make you hard as hell to hit. You dont need to waste a feat on getting weapon focus in the 1 handed weapon, you arent trying to do damage in that circumstance. The Improved critical on the 2 hander works great since you will probably be using it more than any other weapon, so it saves on keen oil or getting that keen bonus, which isnt available for all weapons anyway. If you want you can get improved sunder and get an adamantine weapon. That will slice through anything your opponent might have, but that cuts down on your loot AND only works against enemies with a non-natural weapon. Improved toughness works great for everything. So with all that you have excellant damage capability in melee while being able to switch to tanking almost immediately, and have a decent level of ranged attack ability, be able to act quicker, and be a tough one. You can always get weapon specialization later. Nowhere does it say you have to recieve the feats as a fighter to get weapon specialization. You can get it 10 levels later that you take in a prestige class if you like. Weapon specialization in ranged attacks is substantially better at tipping the odds in your favor since ranged atatcks tend to be weaker on both sides, and the damage bonus is +2 regardless of the weapon type. Weapon specialization will give you a larger percentage increase of damage on that weapon. As a side note, I would take composite longbows. They can be made to add + strength to the attack bonus and damage, and as a fighter you will probably have that maxed out. Also, get a cheap composite bow (+1 at best) and get real nice ammo. You wont be using the ammo often so you can get it cheap. Whats more, your strength bonus will be consistently changing, so your composite longbow wont get the full benefit of your new improved strength from an item, tome, or level, so it will have to be replaced in a couple of levels usually anyway. Edit: Remember, shields dont cause Armor Check Penalties unless they are on your arm.
Thubby 12-01-06, 11:35 PM	get to far shot (with javelin). take 2 wpn fting feats, large spiked steal shield, imp shield bash (with the bashing magic ability its 2d6), pwr atk/cleave, and maybe expertise tree. (of you dont get the idea, take the best of one tree, then move to the next one) it plays VERY tactical. your full plate/shield combo makes you hard to hit, but slow, the javelins at 60ft make up for that (thats max range of 300). the normal low dmg of sword shield builds is overridden by the 2 wpn fighting, and imp shield bash keeps the armor. trick feats (trip, disarm, etc.) have their overall uses, and having options open is amazing. hello spartan! you have 2 braud options, take no trick feats, to avoid 1 trick pony (imp init, quick draw, etc.) or take all the trick feats, it takes a while, but is alot of fun.