Post/Author/DateTime	Post
robertliguori 12-09-05, 10:34 AM	My DM has begun to institute a +2 LA "played by Robert" penalty on my PCs, on the basis that my characters get ideas that most other people in his universes don't seem to. Ambushes, for instance. For me, it is intuitive that the smart thing to do is send a meatshield into a new room. If something leaps out and attacks the meatshield, he should turn tail and run back to the previous room, where the rest of the party are waiting with readied actions. You're trading one attack against your prepared meatshield against a round of attacks against a hopefully-unprepared enemy. Lines of retreat are a big one. The big doors of the crypt should never swing shut ominously behind you, because it should be SOP to hammer wedges into all doors, locking them open, so that if you need to flee in a hurry, you can. If you're not suffering from time pressure, doubling back just to be sure of what's happening behind you can save your bacon. Concentrate your fire, target effects approriately, and keep in mind the greater situation. Take into account who goes after you, and what they can do. If you can kill a foe before he gets another turn, that's good. The fewer turns your enemies have, the less they can do. If you are a mighty barbarian that can kill a man with one blow, then you should consider targeting the unwounded enemy, and letting the party bard drop the foe with a crossbow bolt. As a general rule, if you can kill a foe, do it. If you can kill multiple foes, kill the strongest. If you can't kill a foe, target the weakest. Backup weapons. Every member of the party should carry at least one ranged weapon. Depending on how lenient your DM is, you can load the party down with oil flasks and a few charges of alchemist's fire, and simply have every PC hit an enemy with oil if they're already on fire, or alchemist's fire if they're not. On that note, oil makes a wonderful tool for ambushes as described above. Aside from making things nice and slick to inconvienence baddies charging into your ambush, you can also increase the chances of the baddie being on fire when he reaches you, which can mean a round of X * 1d6 fire damage, where X is the number of party members who can make a touch attack against him. This gets even worse when you consider that if the DM rules that an oil slick on the floor forces the enemy to have to Balance, they're flat-footed. Once the party gets a few levels under their belts, then things become more interesting. One nice generic trick: cast invisibility on a rogue, and have him follow the rest of the party with a spear. When you bait a monster into charging into the ambush, have him already having set the spear. Generic misdirection. As soon as you can, get a hat of disguise for every party member. Little is more amusing than watching a rogue leap from the shadows to stab the elven mage in the chest, only to blink in confusion as said mage takes the blow, lets out an orcish war cry, and cleaves them in half with their staff. Curing. Wands of cure light wounds are all well and good, but if the cleric carrying them is roasted by dragonfire on round 2, then the poor bard doesn't want to be digging through the ashes while poor Thorak is bleeding to death. Each party member should carry at least a potion of cure light wounds, to be used in emergencies. Summon spells can be used to may good tactical effects. One of the simplest and most useful is scout. The Mount spell, combined with an illusion of a rider and sent on ahead, can trigger traps that would otherwise harm party members and fool foes into wasting a round of attacks. Wasted enemy attacks are good. So, what other practices should low-level adventurers keep in mind?
Illion the Red 12-09-05, 10:55 AM	Lots of good material there... One thing I would emphasize is concentration of attacks. It is almost never a better idea to have 4 heavily wounded foes of equal power than two fresh and two dead foes of equal power. This, of course, changes when the foes are of different power as then it comes down to a question of tactical priority. In addition to a tactical retreat to draw an opponent into an ambush, sometimes, it's wise or just plain necessary to just plain flee from a clearly superior foe, or when you are overextended. The part of this that is often forgotten is that a great many foes can outrun most parties, especially with Characters with move speed of 20. Therefore, another essential piece of gear for every Character is the bag of caltrops. These will likely slow down pursiut enough for the party to get away.
Aladdar 12-09-05, 11:59 AM	1. Not everything is meant to be beaten. I know I had this mistake as a new player. I assumed that if it was in the module then I was supposed to kill it. I have since learned (after a few near deaths) to start looking for alternative ways to finish a scenario. Not everything has to end in bloodbath. 2. Everyone should (as soon as possible) have some way to cure themselves or a party member in case the cleric goes down. I now always carry at least one potion of cure light wounds on all my low level characters. 3. Actually form strategies as a group. I've seen way too many groups fall apart because they refuse to work together. My last group was like this and was the most frustrating thing ever. I couldn't get anyone in the group to be willing to work together on strategies, everyone just did whatever they wanted. The wizard would just open doors without listening because he felt like it, we'd try to concentrate fire on a certain enemy and the fighter would just decide to go take on something else. We'd try to retreat but one character would refuse to retreat and swear he'd kill us if we retreated and closed the door. It was just stupid. 4. Actually listen and check for traps before moving through doors. 5. Again, from my stupid group, if you're in a dungeon where a war is going on between kobolds and goblins and you're trying to sneak through, don't get into a screaming argument with each other. How I wished I was a fighter, I would have put a sword at someones throat and demanded that they shut up or I would kill them.
Auburn 12-09-05, 12:57 PM	If you need to rest and have a chance to rest then you should rest. Marginal situations can become easily winnable if everyon'es at full HP and the spellcasters have a full load ofspells instead of everyone being wounded and with half their spells.
Bruunwald 12-09-05, 01:27 PM	Tactics are good, and you are a smart person. However, if I may play DM's advocate, some of it is misplaced and potentially annoying. Some of what you're doing is metagaming: You are aware that it is a game, and that creatures and other encounters lurk around every corner. You character, on the other hand, while aware of the dangerous aspects of the world he lives in, probably has more to think about than being a master tactician, and likely would not think of every last thing you do, in every situation, from the comfort of your chair in someone's warm basement or kitchen. While I applaud your intellect, your DM is probably going to go batty from having every little aspect of every situation completely analyzed and prepared for. Ask yourself: what is my character's Intelligence? What is his Wisdom? What is his class? How much of what I am telling him to do, would he really be capable of? If it's not as much, take a step back and play your character like a real person in a medieval world, who has trained heavily in one aspect of his life, has certain attributes, and is in a dangerous and fearful situation. Stop playing him like Robert the smart twenty-first-century guy who has a full view of the battlefield and time to kill. Some of that is good, definitely. Some of it is annoying, and some of it is wrong to assume on the character's part, and can lead to bad roleplaying.
Lincoln Hills 12-09-05, 03:32 PM	While I agree with the thrust of Bruunwald's argument, I should add that such reasoning belongs strictly in games where character immersion is paramount. If your DM runs every session as if it were a game of WARHAMMER, then doing the "in-character thing" will only result in a succession of character deaths. Now, me - when MY players remain in character against their own better judgement, they gain some bonus XP. It's usually small, but it adds up over time. And, in all honesty, such players can have a lot of fun because they'll end up in situations which the "Nam vet" style of play will never allow to emerge. For instance, being trapped in the crypt because the doors just slammed shut ominously behind you. (For the record? My crypt-dwelling BBEGs always make sure that the first trap inside the door, when disarmed, causes a rust monster to appear in the entry chamber in order to feast on the iron spikes keeping the door open. Then the doors slam ominously shut, BOOM, because I'll be blasted if I'll allow a hardware-store-carrying PC to cheat me out of my ominous BOOM!)
Good Agnostic 12-09-05, 03:48 PM	I agree with the OP that these are all common sense tactics that anyone who really had their life on the line would do. I think it is the folks who just blaze through a dungeon with no plan or caution who are meta-gaming. Hell, if I were REALLY exploring a dungeon, I'd be doing everything the OP was doing and more. For the DM who is running the world OP and crew are in, he just needs to roleplay the villians and NPC's as well as the OP roleplays. If there is a guiding intelligence in teh dungeon (BBEG) - then he would design a foolproof warning system. That first chamber has arrow slits, sure. ANd there are skeleton archers back there, of course. However, there are also a half dozen skeletons with big bells in their hands that immediately go running in different directions alerting the denziens. I mean, if I were a BBEG, I'd think long and hard about how to deal with irksome interlopers. Of course, as a player, I assume the BBEG has thought this through, and plan accordingly. :)
WolfHati 12-09-05, 09:16 PM	Sending the tough guy into the new room first is a good idea, but unless he's got backup coming in after him, and not standing around outside, there should be a good chance he isn't coming out. A room with 2 rogues would be suicide to walk into, unless he had a really high spot and improved initiative, or luck. If they were dual wielding they could get as many as 6 attacks off before the PC could even react, all with sneak attack damage.
Thorak 12-09-05, 10:36 PM	Curing. Wands of cure light wounds are all well and good, but if the cleric carrying them is roasted by dragonfire on round 2, then the poor bard doesn't want to be digging through the ashes while poor Thorak is bleeding to death. Each party member should carry at least a potion of cure light wounds, to be used in emergencies I'm seriously hoping that's just a weird, and slightly disturbing, coincidence, that you've had a character use this name. It's weird. I've been playing online games since the days of BBS games like Legend of the Red Dragon, and this is the first time I've ever encountered anyone who's used the name before. Oh, except for the captain of the guard from the movie The Scorpion King. That was kind of neat, since I'd retired my Thorak from active play way back in '94. It's been one of my constant names on most online things, and I've typically only seen it taken on games like Diablo 2, where everything that sounds remotely plausible is taken.
Nom 12-09-05, 10:48 PM	We'd try to retreat but one character would refuse to retreat and swear he'd kill us if we retreated and closed the door.Call his bluff. Odds are he won't live to carry it out. ;)
stranger_654 12-09-05, 11:26 PM	(For the record? My crypt-dwelling BBEGs always make sure that the first trap inside the door, when disarmed, causes a rust monster to appear in the entry chamber in order to feast on the iron spikes keeping the door open. Then the doors slam ominously shut, BOOM, because I'll be blasted if I'll allow a hardware-store-carrying PC to cheat me out of my ominous BOOM!) Arrh....the old doors Boom situtaion, makes any pc quake in fear, especially if they are a few rooms in, halfway through a battle when they hear it, it's rather amazing how they put two and two together, and realise they have no escape.... Oops, back on topic, i think that some of them are reasonable tactics, like resting whenever you can, always carrying a cure potion, but seriously, how many people would act as a parties meat sheild? I know that if i were really in a dungeon, it would be some battle to get me to go into a dark room all by myself first, and then run out again.... Just my two cents worth -stranger
Ekranoplan 12-10-05, 12:19 AM	The tactic of resting whenever you can and having everyone carrying a healing potion just seems like common sense to me. Its a matter of self preservation. Who wouldn't want to carry their own healing potions?
ezreal2001 12-10-05, 02:38 AM	(For the record? My crypt-dwelling BBEGs always make sure that the first trap inside the door, when disarmed, causes a rust monster to appear in the entry chamber in order to feast on the iron spikes keeping the door open. Then the doors slam ominously shut, BOOM, because I'll be blasted if I'll allow a hardware-store-carrying PC to cheat me out of my ominous BOOM!) Cute. But in my worlds the great protal of where ever, is never constrained by mere iron spikes. Its slams ominously shut when ever it takes its fancy. E PS And those doors are never made of Adamantine or any other precious metal. Well not since a certain party worked out that the path to early retirement involved pushing a couple of the aformentioned doors into a portable hole.
Banedir 12-11-05, 01:42 AM	For the record? My crypt-dwelling BBEGs always make sure that the first trap inside the door, when disarmed, causes a rust monster to appear in the entry chamber in order to feast on the iron spikes keeping the door open. Traps that are disarmed don't do anything. That's kind of the point. I don't think people should be hammering iron spikes into every door they come across, though...talk about your odd behavior.
captainmorley 12-11-05, 02:34 AM	Now im not gonna lie everyone in teh party hates my char but im a cleric of grumsch in the worlds largest dungeon adn im basicallythe most chaotic char ever i dont open doors i bull rush them i dont cast spells except to heal the party im basically very loud and crazy i dont even fight things i just run in and grapple them no matter what it is i mean my wisdom is high and all and my int isnt dumb but im roleplaying a crazy grumsch zealot and its lots of fun now i could close every door and stuff and prepare for every trap but its much more fun to blaze through stuff and just act psycho i mean who doesnt want to run in and bullrsh/grapple everything though i am horrible at tactics witht he party but i always manage to be helpful and stuff so its all good except that party kill but he was annoying and needed it lol just walked up when he was at -5 hitpoints and smashed his skull in wth a greatclub bwaahahahahahhahahha shows them all not to mess with me but ya roleplaying is much more fun than preparing every loser action and playing a nam vet so ya
TeddyKGB 12-11-05, 11:46 AM	robertliguori, Are you in the military? Or were you? You sound like my group back in Colorado. The most wonderful, but frustrating group of players I have ever DMd. I ran them through the Duvik's Pass adventure once (free adventure on wizards dnd page), and these guys built a war cart using various craft skills and bits they found in the dungeon. They destroyed the kobolds and the orc with almost no effort. It's constant with them. They always pump "useless" craft skills, have SOPs for nearly every situation, and generally run the game like a small combined arms unit running a well planned op. Kudos to you for posting this. I've read through the WaPtD forum quite a bit, and a lot of it is excellent, but I think this is the first general tactics thread I've seen. Gamers like you challenge DMs to be better - tactically, and technically. :cool:
Tamelo 12-11-05, 03:19 PM	One thing to remember: This sort of thing is NOT metagaming. The adventuring party is the DnD equivilant of the "small combined arms unit". It is in charecter to use tactics to maximize your advantage. In fact, it is rather OoC to not use them, or allow your retreat to be blocked, just because it is more dramatic that way. The adventurer will want to preserve his life before any considerations of style (unless he is a bard. Bards are weird like that). Just make sure it isn't the INT 6 half-ork barbarian coming up with these plans.
Rathje 12-11-05, 09:44 PM	One thing to remember: This sort of thing is NOT metagaming. Etc. Exactly. Nobody here is over INT of 12 or 13, I'd say. I don't mean that in an insulting way, I just mean that we would all be level 1 commoners with 15 point buy. So a character with 14+ INT (or experience with combat) could easily come up with tactics of this calibur.
CryoSilver 12-11-05, 09:48 PM	Use Enlarge Person on the fighter: reach and +1 damage is not something to be coughed, especially the reach.
ehrin 12-11-05, 10:39 PM	Watch your lines: never line up more than two in a row when facing a magic user (think lightning bolt). 5 foot step: in most every situation, your character should take at least a five foot step: move away, towards, to the side, etc, but in general, moving is usually better than planting your feet and forgetting you have that option. Watch your paths: See above on moving, and remember to keep pathways clear for clerics to get to the front, or for rogues to slip past the combat. Also, keeping paths "clear" helps keep people from bunching up in a small, tight, fireball area. Remember ALL your skills and advantages: Bards add +1, clerics can Bane and give a -1, total bonus = +2. Flanking is +2, aid another if you can't hit in combat, +2... every little bit helps.
Chimaera2000 12-11-05, 11:05 PM	Some tactics off the top of my head: Against creatures with damage reduction, have party members flank and aid another to help the fighter with Power Attack, rather than to do several weak attacks. Situationally, keep range and concentrate ranged attacks on an enemy rather than immediately closing to melee. Ready actions against mages to interrupt their spells are useful; you can even do this from range if they don't have protection from arrows or the like. If party members have Use Magic Device, equip them with scrolls. If you're facing a large group of foes, being able to cast multiple fireballs in one turn can be devastating. Fighters with reach weapons and readied actions can serve as an effective screen for mages and ranged attacks. An entire party with Improved Initative can be surprisingly effective.
Feor 12-11-05, 11:31 PM	I will agree that most of this is stuff that a low level fighter or ranger would be able to think up, but you do have to bring RP into it somewhat. If you're a level 1 Cleric of Pelor, should your character really be bringing some of these up? Sure, you'd probably suggest that everyone carry a healing potion, you are primarily concerned with keeping them alive, but would it occur to you to line up the enemies for an ambush? And while it's well and good to say that the logical thing to do is to have the barbarian turn on a fresh foe while the rest of the party finishes off the one he's got to 5 hp, but if he's raging (as barbarians tend to do), would he really be thinking logically enough to do that?
Ulrich Valdemont 12-12-05, 08:01 AM	I DM a group that I gave LA +2, because they all invested in high Int and Wis scores and they litterally walked all over my bad guys and it was no fun for no-one. With LA +2, they where remotely challanged. So now I've discarded the ECL system all together and throw at them whatever would be appropriate for their enviroment. You'd think I was planning a TPK, but they come up with the most elaborate ambushes, traps, using the terrain to their benefit. Digging trenches and building fortifications. Their tactics really give them an edge. And now we play combat on the edge of our seat. We where never a really combat orientated group. Only one of 'em, at level 6, even has a masterwork weapon. No-one wears armor heavier than studded leather (which adds stealth to their repertoire). We play mostly mysteries and social intrigue, with the main focus on RP. But the heavy use of strategy has made combat fun for both me as a DM and my players. So in my eyes, your LA +2 is a compliment. Take it as such. And I agree with the above, that it's not OOC to use tactics. Your character wants to be victorious and survive. It's only natural.
ehrin 12-12-05, 06:00 PM	If you are concerned about metagaming and tactics, then these tactics should develop between PCs, as a result of experience. Should three first level characters suddenly know pincer movements, complicated repositioning tactics, etc? maybe not. But after a couple encounters, where they nearly got beaten, gained ground, saw enemy tactics, etc., it shouldn't be hard for them to say "Next time, YOU stay closer the the party, and YOU sneak around back... " One group I played in had an elaborate hand signal and chalk mark system worked out at first level... because in character, we had all grown up in the same city, and knew we were going to be adventurers someday. SHould all first level groups be that organized? IMO, no, but it seemed right for that one. In my next group, I couldn't get the archers to stay put and fire arrows, they were either running towards melee or away far too often. Different groups, different PC's. SHouldn't 5th level PC's be better at tactics than that? IMO, htey should be, but not that group.
Tiefling_Warlock 12-12-05, 06:42 PM	U missed a spot... COVER take as much as u can and give nothing back! Also make defeneses! If you start to fight run back to defenses and slaughter them, or build them right under their noses. A big pillow is nice 2. Light and stuff plop it down instant cover (though it dies fast oh well like 1 copper) and when it dies a small cloud. Bring stuff. Also make a line, a line is nice because ppl have 1 person attacking them and no flanking. Also it doesn't have to be a good line just a line.
Always-Late 12-12-05, 06:43 PM	How is your DM handling encounters? I'm pretty sure most of the problems you're facing could be solved with NPC's using the same tactics as you are.
Rathje 12-12-05, 07:55 PM	How is your DM handling encounters? I'm pretty sure most of the problems you're facing could be solved with NPC's using the same tactics as you are. And that's what I find makes it fun. Juggling tactics versus tactics in different settings keeps the mind working. It's more interesting that marching forward and attacking. Everyone needs to start somewhere; the basic combat maneuvers lead to the tactical masterminds.
tiercel 12-12-05, 09:44 PM	How is your DM handling encounters? I'm pretty sure most of the problems you're facing could be solved with NPC's using the same tactics as you are.This is why clever DMs start a game by leading off with fairly stupid, generic mooks. Once the DM sees what level of tactics you are using, he can slowly up the ante by incorporating tactics -- if you aren't using much in the way of tactics, your characters will be educated (if harshly) -- and if you are, then the DM can learn tactics from you, to be used when he starts using more intelligent foes (or foes with intelligent leadership). One thing to keep in mind with tactics is that you should be wary of using any tactic that you really, really wouldn't want your DM to turn back against you. If you start Sundering left and right (which, frankly, has its own cost to a PC), it's just a matter of time before your next BBEG is Lord Sunder. Likewise, while it is just good sense to try to reduce the number of enemies ASAP, the DM is in the bad spot of realizing the same thing. It's a bad spot, because when your party faces off against a EL (party level +3) encounter, and the BBEG orders "concentrate all firepower on PC X," you may have a player who gets to sit around doing nothing for the rest of the combat and hoping his character can get raised/resurrected.
KJW 12-13-05, 10:07 AM	My PCs do most of this stuff, I am lucky to have several tactically gifted players, of course, my other PCs struggle just figuring how to get a flanking attack. :) I like tactically gifted players. Once they learn how to roleplay they are awesome, because ability with combat tactics usually equates to ability with political intrigue and other more challenging aspects of the game. My PCs' strategy is to just fight solid with teamwork and only pull out the cunning stuff when needed, this is a sound strategy. Give a tactically gifted DM an opening and any party is in trouble, so don't give the DM an opening. While Robert's basic strategies are great, I wish his DM would PM me as there are so many wonderful openings to turn those tactics back. :) In truth, I suspect the Robert would be happier if his DM was more tactically gifted, instead of having to do the +2 LA. There is nothing more frustrating than a DM who just throws bigger stuff and can't grasp what you are trying to do. My players just need to tell me what they are doing and I can figure out the strategy and realistically run the scenario, but many DMs need the PCs to spell everything out down to what the NPCs or monsters should be thinking. There is nothing more frustrating that being a player under a DM who operates below your tactical ability. This is one of the reasons I only DM.