Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vyralas 10-02-07, 01:34 PM	So I've run into an interesting dilemma. My friend is planning on running a sixth level gestalt campaign since we only have two players and one DM available at any one time. After much tinkering I ended up with a half-clestial human bard/paladin only to realize that bards can't be lawful. Are there any other arcane casters with charisma as their casting stat and the armored mage class feature besides bards and warmages? In addition, anyone out there besides me curious as to why bards have to be nonlawful? It doesn't make sense to me.
Serrin 10-02-07, 02:02 PM	There are options for armored spellcasting with any arcane caster, but I don't know any off the top of my head that give armored casting. You may want to consider warlocks, dragonfire adepts, factoti, or other weird classes. The powerful option, however, is our dear old friend the Archivist. He's a divine caster, uses wis to determine bonus spells (int, unfortunately, is still his main casting stat), his divine spells don't provoke ASF, and if you can get enough divine scrolls of wizard spells that are also domain spells, then you're as good as an arcane caster. Or better.
wonlee76 10-02-07, 02:21 PM	Battle Sorceror from Unearthed Arcana. Ability to cast in light armor. Pick up the Battlecaster feat (Complete Arcane I think) and you can cast without ASF in medium armor.
Vyralas 10-02-07, 02:43 PM	Unfortunately the battlecaster feat requires you to have the ability to ignore arcane spell failure already so I won't qualify for it unless I already have a class ability, at which point that feat becomes useless because i only wear light armor to begin with. Warlock has to be evil or chaotic so it can't be mixed with paladin either. Where can I find the Archivist? I've never heard of that before. Charisma is the optimal casting stat but intelligence is a good comprimise, my stats are as follows: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 20
Ecalsneerg 10-02-07, 02:43 PM	Try asking for a Lawful Bard? Maybe your friend will agree with your logic.
Vyralas 10-02-07, 02:45 PM	Yeah I was thinking of that or not telling him at all that bards require nonlawful because I'm sure he doesn't know. But I prefer to be honest.
KillerGM 10-02-07, 02:56 PM	Unfortunately the battlecaster feat requires you to have the ability to ignore arcane spell failure already so I won't qualify for it unless I already have a class ability, at which point that feat becomes useless because i only wear light armor to begin with. The Battle Sorcerer from UA has the "can cast in light armor" ability already - wonlee76 was saying you could pick up the feat to be able to cast in medium. :D EDIT: Yeah I was thinking of that or not telling him at all that bards require nonlawful because I'm sure he doesn't know. But I prefer to be honest. Don't do this. This is dumb and will only create distrust and annoyance in the game.
Adric_the_Commoner 10-02-07, 03:10 PM	Bards are supposed to be nonlawful because they're supposed to be free spirits. Just as the paladin cares for order and law, the bard enjoys freedom and dislikes being chained down to a system. Besides that, everyone knows rock stars are chaotic.
Prator_the_Legendary 10-02-07, 03:30 PM	Yeah, but... Don't the best musicians have to train themselves rigorously their entire lives in order to master their art? I mean, not just anyone can pick up a violin and become a virtuoso. It takes the kind of dedication that primarily lawful people are known for to be a great singer or instrumentalist.
MrCustomer 10-02-07, 03:35 PM	Can you be a Paladin/Cleric? It sounds like a complimentary combination, as Clerics cast while wearing heavy armor and shields. I'm not entirely sure of the gestalt rules
Sinfire Titan 10-02-07, 05:30 PM	Unfortunately the battlecaster feat requires you to have the ability to ignore arcane spell failure already so I won't qualify for it unless I already have a class ability, at which point that feat becomes useless because i only wear light armor to begin with. Warlock has to be evil or chaotic so it can't be mixed with paladin either. Where can I find the Archivist? I've never heard of that before. Charisma is the optimal casting stat but intelligence is a good comprimise, my stats are as follows: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 20 No they don't. Warlocks can be of any alignment of their player's choice. Many of them just happen to be evil aligned. Very few become LG, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
KillerGM 10-02-07, 05:41 PM	Actually, the alignment section in the Warlock description says: Alignment: Any evil or any chaotic. So the only lawful Warlock would be LE.
VulcanStormwrath 10-02-07, 06:37 PM	Actually, the alignment section in the Warlock description says: Alignment: Any evil or any chaotic. So the only lawful Warlock would be LE. Read Complete Arcane there';s even a prestige class where you can gain celestial abilities due to the fact your powers came frome an eladrin or some such creature. That being said I'd consider Paladin/Favored soul. A Paladin with energy resistances, weapon focus and specialization for free and spell casting to ninth level. Pretty impressive
KillerGM 10-02-07, 07:05 PM	Read Complete Arcane there';s even a prestige class where you can gain celestial abilities due to the fact your powers came frome an eladrin or some such creature. That is from the Complete Arcane. Page 7, under "Game Rule Information": Warlocks have the following game statistics. Abilities: [not needed for this, and might violate copywrite] Alignment: Any evil or chaotic. Hit Die: d6 Emphasis mine. I don't know to what PrC you're referring (a name, book and page number would be nice), but a Warlock can be good, just not LG. Any evil or chaotic means a Warlock can be the following alignments: CG, CN, LE, NE, CE.
darkneolink 10-02-07, 07:29 PM	talk to your DM I would allow a LG orator (spelling?) maybe for one of the NG deities or try Paladin/cleric (favored soul) as they've said before
12Shark 10-02-07, 07:55 PM	Wait, I'm pretty sure there's a feat you can take to let you multiclass paladin and bard by removing the 'nonlawful' restriction on the bards. I'll have a poke around and see what I can dig up. EDIT: Bing! It's not quite perfect, but it works. Devoted Performer feat, Complete Adventurer page 107. Requires Smite Evil and Bardic Music abilities. You may stack your paladin and bard levels to determine uses of bardic music and smite evil damage dealt per day, up to the maximum for your character level. (This part wouldn't have any benefit for gestalt, as such, shortened for brevity) In addition, you can multiclass freely between paladin and bard, and may even gain additional bard levels regardless of your lawful alignment. You must still remain lawful good in order to retain your paladin abilities and continue taking paladin levels. You still take normal multiclass penalties for having two classes more than one level apart. EDIT2: @V Beat you to it!
happy_fuzzy 10-02-07, 08:06 PM	I think there are some feats in complete adventurer that allow you to mix classes without penalites, but im not sure if there was a paladin/bard one
VulcanStormwrath 10-02-07, 09:58 PM	That is from the Complete Arcane. Page 7, under "Game Rule Information": Emphasis mine. I don't know to what PrC you're referring (a name, book and page number would be nice), but a Warlock can be good, just not LG. Any evil or chaotic means a Warlock can be the following alignments: CG, CN, LE, NE, CE. Sorry meant Complete Mage. Broke down all possible origins of a warlock's power and different alignments
KillerGM 10-02-07, 11:06 PM	Sorry meant Complete Mage. Broke down all possible origins of a warlock's power and different alignments Could you reference it for me? I don't remember seeing anything like that in the Complete Mage. They list the origins, but say nothing about changing the required alignment. Actually, all of the examples they give for the different origins are how likely each origin would be CG, CN, LE, NE, and CE. They even mention "wild and chaotic" celestials being the source of the Warlocks' powers, not that they can be LG. The Enlightened Spirit PrC says only good-aligned Warlocks can take the class, which means CG.
Sinfire Titan 10-03-07, 12:34 AM	That is from the Complete Arcane. Page 7, under "Game Rule Information": Emphasis mine. I don't know to what PrC you're referring (a name, book and page number would be nice), but a Warlock can be good, just not LG. Any evil or chaotic means a Warlock can be the following alignments: CG, CN, LE, NE, CE. He meant Comp Mage
KillerGM 10-03-07, 01:43 PM	He meant Comp Mage Read above.
Crake 10-03-07, 06:22 PM	Just a thought on Warlocks; the entry says they have to be a chaotic or evil to take the class. There is no little blurb about how they can't continue advancing as a warlock if they become lawful.
12Shark 10-03-07, 08:11 PM	Isn't this a moot point, because of the Devoted Performer feat? Now the OP can, in fact, do a paladin//bard, so there's not really any need to be debating warlocks.
Voran 10-03-07, 09:19 PM	Paladin/Dragon Shaman?
VulcanStormwrath 10-03-07, 09:36 PM	Paladin/Dragon Shaman? Twice the Bahamuty Goodness
KillerGM 10-03-07, 10:37 PM	Twice the Bahamuty Goodness MMMM Bahamuty Goodness...
Guardian1 10-04-07, 12:08 AM	Um, what about Paladin/Duskblade? Spontaneous spellcasting, d8 hit die, fighter's BAB and weapon/armor proficiencies, small scattering of spell-like abilities, ability to ignore ASF for light shields and light armor at lvl 1, medium armor at lvl 4, and heavy shields at lvl 7. Combine those things with the ability to channal spells through melee attacks, and you have one interesting paladin. Only problem is that Duskblades are Int-based.
danielinthewolvesden 10-04-07, 03:17 AM	Beguiler. Scads of Skill points too.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-04-07, 03:43 AM	I'd say that if you took the divine performer feat, that would be ideal. If you are playing Gestalt, never be satisified with your character unless you have two full casting classes, or full BaB plus six skill points a level.
larry_the_titan 10-04-07, 08:41 AM	Palidin/Monk: All good saves: +Cha mod on saves vs spells, Evasion, Good damage potention and you will never need to buy a weapon or Armor. If I knew what other books you were allowed I can do so much better with this combo.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-04-07, 12:12 PM	Problem is that you need really hihg stats across the board to pull that off.
KillerGM 10-04-07, 03:29 PM	Problem is that you need really hihg stats across the board to pull that off. His stats are: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 20
Count Arioch the 28th 10-04-07, 04:32 PM	Yeah, he's going to have problems then.
Thubby 10-04-07, 06:06 PM	In addition, anyone out there besides me curious as to why bards have to be nonlawful? It doesn't make sense to me. bards are supposed to be free spirited wanderers, "free spirit" and lawful don't mix well. oh, and i second (or is it third?) the paladin/dragon disciple. or you could try a psionic class, psionics aren't unlike arcane spells.
danielinthewolvesden 10-04-07, 07:55 PM	His stats are: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 20 If he was a Monk/pally, he needs to gets one of those 16's into WIS. A/C.
Serrin 10-04-07, 09:44 PM	Carmendine Monk?
Count Arioch the 28th 10-04-07, 11:03 PM	Foreget the 16/s a monk needs at least 2 18's to function. And even then, you're the equivalent of a rogue in a chain shirt.
Guardian1 10-05-07, 04:42 PM	Foreget the 16/s a monk needs at least 2 18's to function. And even then, you're the equivalent of a rogue in a chain shirt. That's what stat boosting items are for. Enough gold and that paladin/monk could become an utter powerhouse.
danielinthewolvesden 10-05-07, 08:36 PM	That's what stat boosting items are for. Enough gold and that paladin/monk could become an utter powerhouse. Enough gold and a Commoner can turn into a powerhouse.:P
12Shark 10-05-07, 08:41 PM	Enough time with the CO boards and anybody can become a powerhouse, gold or not :P.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-06-07, 12:32 AM	That's what stat boosting items are for. Enough gold and that paladin/monk could become an utter powerhouse. Yeah, with golevs of dex +6 and a periapt of wisdom +6, that monk could become the equivalent of a rogue in +3 chain shirt (Exceopt without the skills and the damage dealing ability)! Ooooo, I'm scared.
Johnny_Angel 10-07-07, 04:01 PM	Palidin/Monk: All good saves: +Cha mod on saves vs spells, Evasion, Good damage potention and you will never need to buy a weapon or Armor. If I knew what other books you were allowed I can do so much better with this combo. I was going to say this, but Larry beat me to it. I'm not sure what books you have available to you, but another nice alternative might be the Battle Sorcerer. It's a sorcerer which gives up some spell slots to be able to wear light armor; sorcerers use Charisma, so it would be a natural fit with the Paladin. Also, on a side note, I can't remember where it is, but I think there is a feat or a Prestige Class or something somewhere which allows a character to be both a Bard and a Paladin; if I had to guess, I'd look in either Complete Adventurer or Complete Divine. I apologize for being vague with this answer, but I honestly can't remember where exactly what you're looking for is, and I can't remember what it's called either.
Crimson_Concerto 10-07-07, 05:20 PM	The most logical thing to do really IS to just simply get rid of the alignment restriction on the Bard. There's no reason they can't be lawful, and don't give me that "free spirited" BS. First of all, I don't know about other people, but I don't always stick to the generic flavor of a class. I don't always play Barbarians as anything having to do with nature or the wild, I don't always play sorcerers as idiots who happened to be lucky enough to have a powerful ancestor, and I don't always play Warlocks as people who've made pacts with devils. I've played a knight who was in charge of protecting one of the other characters (as well has having a romantic interest in her). He raged whenever she got hurt in combat. Perfectly reasonable and legitimate use of the Barbarian's mechanics, and that's all I really wanted. I don't need its flavor; I already have one. The sorcerer in question has a pretty high INT by the end of the game, and his obsession was mulling through historical tomes to discover where exactly his power came from, as many sorcerers wonder. The answer simply turned out to be that it came from him! His magic wasn't bloodline based. It wasn't any kind of divine intervention. It was simple willpower. He did it because he wanted it. The warlock? He was a Warforged, and he was build as a prototype magical weapon. Thus, he has many spell-like abilities and could interact empathically with magic items. Warlock was really the only mechanical way do do this one, but of course, I didn't need the flavor now did I? Bottom line? What do the mechanics of the bard class really speak to? Nothing about them says the character NEEDS to be a "free spirit" or whatever. They're simply lore-based and motivation-based, and there's no reason why an army captain can't be lawful. I really don't need some silly, nonsensical alignment restriction determining how I play my character. Second of all, even if you want to stick with the stereotype that Bards are "free-spirited," there's no reason that somebody who's free-spirited can't be lawful. I mean, just because somebody's spontaneous and values freedom doesn't mean they don't think following the rules is important or that they don't honor their elders or whatever. None of that is mutually exclusive, and that's really the major problem with the Law/Chaos axis of D&D; a person can be extremely lawful in some ways and extremely chaotic in other ways and NEVER be neutral in any ways. CONCLUSION: There's no real reason besides stupid and nonsensical alignment restrictions not to allow a Bard/Paladin multiclass (or in this case, Gestalt) character.
Saiyamantis 10-07-07, 11:08 PM	Have you looked at paladin of freedom? It's in Unearthed Arcana, which I assume you're using if you're gestalt.
Johnny_Angel 10-08-07, 12:54 AM	Have you looked at paladin of freedom? It's in Unearthed Arcana, which I assume you're using if you're gestalt. I can't believe I forgot about that. I agree, if you still want to go with the Paladin/Bard idea, the Paladin of Freedom would be an excellent choice.
Thubby 10-08-07, 12:59 AM	and there's no reason why an army captain can't be lawful. army captains aren't bards, they don't cast spells, they do use armor and shields.
Crimson_Concerto 10-08-07, 02:26 AM	army captains aren't bards, they don't cast spells, they do use armor and shields.Ah, that's where you're wrong. In core D&D, I can't think of a better way to represent an army captain than with the Bard class. Think about it. After all, the army captain isn't the one that's the best at fighting. He's the one who can come up with the best tactics, coordinate the troops, and keep up morale. The captain needs lots of social skills to keep up troop morale and motivate them in combat, right? Well, what better than Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, Song of Freedom, and Inspire Heroics? What about spells like Heroism? What about other buff spells? The captain also needs to be able to negotiate with allies and enemies. He needs to be the army's "face." This is where the Bard's plethora of social skills come in. Diplomacy is obvious, but Bluff never hurts, and Fascinate certainly has its uses, not to mention all of the spells a Bard has to aid him (Charm, Comprehend Languages, and so on). The captain isn't stupid, of course. He'll have to know his stuff to be able to properly interact, and to determine the best tactics to use, a good knowledge of history can be invaluable. Of course, this is what Bardic Knowledge is for, as well as skills other martial classes just don't get, like Knowledge (history) or Knowledge (nobility and royalty), and let's not forget that these epic tales of bravery keep up troop morale. Should the captain be worried about lack of armor and weapon proficiency? Of course not. Historically and logically, the captains and tacticians rarely go into battle themselves, and when they do, they are well protected and try to stay out of harm's way. That being said, the captain isn't useless in combat. He may not be the strongest or most effective, but he's no weakling if he is truly needed, and that's where his average BAB and light armor proficiency come in, as well as his proficiency with at least a few martial weapons. However, heavier armor and shields simply aren't his element. If he's staying out of trouble like he should, he won't be needing them. But of course, at the same time, the captain is very devoted in his allegiance to his country. Being an army man, he's been very well disciplined, and he fights to keep order in his land. Sounds lawful to me, no? Well, there we go. The Bard works perfectly for an army captain. ;)
danielinthewolvesden 10-08-07, 03:31 PM	Ah, that's where you're wrong. In core D&D, I can't think of a better way to represent an army captain than with the Bard class. Marshall. 'nuf said.
Crimson_Concerto 10-08-07, 03:39 PM	Marshall. 'nuf said.I DID say core D&D, now didn't I? Either way, you haven't invalidated my point. If anything, you've only reinforced it. I mean, if the Bard and the Marshal do the exact same thing, and the Marshal can be lawful, then why can't the Bard be? :P
danielinthewolvesden 10-09-07, 02:56 AM	Either way, you haven't invalidated my point. If anything, you've only reinforced it. I mean, if the Bard and the Marshal do the exact same thing, and the Marshal can be lawful, then why can't the Bard be? :P 'cause the rules say no.:P And because a Bard inspires but a Marshal gives orders. The Bard is the Piper, the Marshal is the Captain.
DoctorWeasel 10-09-07, 03:45 AM	Would Spellthief be an option? That class is (to use the vernacular) made entirely of win. You would get: Skill points and a good skill list Armored Casting A limited Charisma-based Spell list Variants of Spell-Thievery (Fun and fairly useful) I've had good experiences with a Spellthief 9//Marshal* 2/Paladin of Freedom 3/Crusader 4 *Just because my DM feels the need to give everyting SR in some form or another What about Wilder? You'll probably do pretty well even with the restricted Power list if your go-to tactic is sword-bashery.
Crimson_Concerto 10-09-07, 05:43 PM	'cause the rules say no.:PI hope you don't think you just made some kind of point. :uh-huh: I already know that. What I'm saying is that it's stupid and unnecessary. And because a Bard inspires but a Marshal gives orders....Which has the same conceptual and mechanical effect? The Bard is the Piper, the Marshal is the Captain.No, hun, the Bard is a set of mechanics, and the Marshal is a set of mechanics. If I think a set of mechanics fits my concept for what I want my character to do, why should I be limited by the example character of what that mechanic might represent? That's just silly. You might as well say all Bards must be Gnomes. :rolleyes: Furthermore, you haven't explained why even if I DO choose to play the Piper, the Piper can't be lawful. What, like everybody who plays music is "free-spirited"? Like all art forms, music takes discipline to perfect. :P My point still stands that the Bard and Marshal do the exact same thing, except that one has an alignment restriction.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-09-07, 10:16 PM	BArds were better in 2E, then the alignment restriction was the alignment restriction druids have today. (And druids could only be lawful, chaotic, or true neutral.)
danielinthewolvesden 10-10-07, 03:17 AM	...Which has the same conceptual and mechanical effect? Furthermore, you haven't explained why even if I DO choose to play the Piper, the Piper can't be lawful. But different flavour & fluff, and the game is all about Roleplaying. Want a Lawful inspiring guy? Marshal. Chaotic? = Bard. It's like asking why a Pally must be Good, and a Blackguard Evil. Friend, ever listen to a piper? If that's not Chaotic, nothing is.:P
Count Arioch the 28th 10-10-07, 12:11 PM	The difference is that Bards have at least some sort of use in the game, while Marshal doesn't really give high enough bonuses to be relevant. Plus, bards have skills and spells, while marshal has none of that.
Crimson_Concerto 10-10-07, 06:40 PM	But different flavour & fluff, and the game is all about Roleplaying.Yes, the game is about role-playing, but it helps to have mechanics that back you up. What, like I'm going to Roleplay a Wizard but the actual character is going to be a Barbarian / War Hulk? Want a Lawful inspiring guy? Marshal. Chaotic? = Bard.Why? What if I want a chaotic inspiring guy who's better at combat and doesn't cast spells. I can do that with the Marshal apparently, but what if I want a lawful inspiring guy that's actually GOOD at inspiring, is only okay at combat, and casts spells? It's like asking why a Pally must be Good, and a Blackguard Evil.No, it's completely different. The Paladin and Blackguard actually have mechanical class features that can only be interpreted as belong to the alignment they're restricted to. The Bard has no such class features, and for that matter, neither does the Barbarian, and off the top of my head, I don't think the Druid does either... Really, the only thing the Monk has is Ki Strike (Lawful)... Friend, ever listen to a piper? If that's not Chaotic, nothing is.:PYes, I have, and I phail to see what's so chaotic about the amount of time and discipline is must have taken to learn how to do that. Heck, I play viola, and I ended up stopping after a while because I just wasn't disciplined enough to practice all the time. I wasn't lawful enough. :P Fact remain, while it's certainly easy, and possibly even intuitive for most people to view playing music as chaotic, alignment really has little to nothing to do with it. Also, you DO realize that you don't have to trigger Bardic Music with any type of actual music, right? It gives alternatives to musical inspiration right there in the class description.
Lord_Cronos 10-12-07, 08:54 AM	I would go Paladin/Battle sorc./ Abjur champ. or Paladin/Monk/ Enlightened fist or Paladin/Cleric Divine meta magic Holy trinity!