Gestalt idea request [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt idea request [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Terik Silverbow
08-07-06, 08:32 PM Normally, I wouldn't ask for other opinions, but I don't have access to my multitude of tomes right now, and I am curious to boot.

Here's the situation. My group will be using Gestalt Characters in my next campaign, which if you don't know, allows you to gain two classes at each character level, combining common features and gaining all unique features.

My group currently contains:

a Cleric/Sorcerer (striving for a custom arcane prestige class I cooked up that fits the theme of the campaign)
a Knight/Marshall
a Barbarian/Warmage (though I am going to talk to this guy and see if he understands the implications of such a combination)

Now, given those existing characters, which are all starting at 1st level, by the way, I am going to create a character that can fill as many voids as possible within the party.

All official WotC material is available, though I have not yet acquired the latest books (Tome of Battle being the big one, though I don't think fighter-types are really needed for this group).

The big holes I see are trap-finding/disabling and other rogue abilities. Here's the kicker. I don't want to use rogue as one of the two classes for this character. I don't particularly enjoy playing rogues, and this character is meant to be involved in as little of the role-playing as possible (since I am DMing, and will be treating it as an ally adventuring with the party as opposed to a PC).

The character will probably have no better than a 14 Cha, as I can't afford for the character to be charismatic enough (ever) to be considered the voice of the party. A low starting Cha will ensure that if nothing else, the cleric/sorcerer will be better.

Stats will be rolled at a future time (I have no dice with me, and won't be back to them for almost two weeks), but that isn't terribly important to me, as whatever I roll, I will use them to their greatest effectiveness for the build.

So throw me your ideas, and lets see how interesting things can get.
Crimson_Concerto
08-07-06, 08:57 PM Well, if you don't like Rogue, how about Scout?
Scout is good when combined with Fighter or Ranger to give them full BAB, better HD, and a much better feat selection. If you want to be ranged (where scouts are at least slightly better), the Fighter will open up MANY more feats. Ranged combat seems to rely on and benifit greatly lots of feats. However, if you want to be a melee scout, think about working your way up to Rapid Blits, a new feat in the PHBII.
a_psh
08-08-06, 03:21 AM Artificers can also find traps via skills like a rogue, and clerics have that trap-detection spell.

Either one of those might seem like you're upstaging the sorceror a bit, of course.

You could always not give them a trap-finder. I tend to run very few traps in my games, if any, because they're just not set in tombs very much and no other place really calls for a lot of traps. (I don't like traps, so I avoid them.) If your campaign is likely to be very wilderness-y or very urban rather than very dungeon-y, just axe the traps -- they don't really make a lot of sense there, anyway.
kelvinaw273
08-08-06, 07:03 AM I would try for monk/scout myself - great skills, amazing saves, trapfinding and TURBO charged movement :D

Anything you cannot outfight you will certainly outrun!

Now imagine skirmish with a stunning fist attached ...
Majick
08-08-06, 08:59 AM Well, considering you get the best of both worlds with THAT type of system, you could recommend someone go a scout/rogue...my god, can you think of the sneak attack damage if you went a ranged character with Crossbow sniper and Deadeye shot O_O holy crap!
Elemental
08-08-06, 03:25 PM Artificers can also find traps via skills like a rogue, and clerics have that trap-detection spell.

Either one of those might seem like you're upstaging the sorceror a bit, of course.

Spellthieves also have trap detection.

There are also the four best trap-detection methods of all--Astral Construct, Summon Monster 1, Summon Nature's Ally 1 and Animate Dead. Just order the construct / creature / zombie to run through the room or open the door, while you watch for a safe distance. Astral Construct is probably the best, since there are no moral qualms about animating corpses or killing a living creature.

Lastly, a warlock can simply destroy a potentially trapped item from a safe distance.
Darth Sephiroth
08-08-06, 04:29 PM Well, my personal favorite for Gestault is Sorcerer/Monk, drop Sorcerer for something else once you reach the ability for 3rd level spells for the spellcasting Monk PrC from Complete Arcane, and if your rolling stats you can get some real fun out of it
gurullamen
08-08-06, 10:34 PM My personal best and ab-soul-suckingly-evil-utely broken combo- the Warlock Ninja. The lack of Charisma can have a diminished effect if played right, and Ninjas are t3h l33tz0rz (or uber super mad cool if you prefer bad English).

Alternatively, you could go two of the following Monk/Pirate/Ninja for each level, shifting the classes each level, and end by naming the monstrosity "Samuel L. Vin Norris," an overdeity in its own right and all without any of those crappy min-max-munchkinisms that PunPun had to use.
Millennium
08-08-06, 10:43 PM I know you're not a fan of rogues, but you really might want to consider the Monk/Rogue class and emphasize the Monk side in your role-play. Sneak Attack plus Flurry is frickin frightening.
jennibert
08-09-06, 10:11 AM I definitely have to agree with scout, as that skirmish can be evil. In fact, in a campaign we just built characters for, we had someone who went scout warlock. He took a bunch of ranged feats, carries no weapon, chose invocations without DCs so he doesn't have to worry about Charisma, and does 5d6 damage each round he moves 10 feet with Eldritch Blast + Skirmish at 6th level. My DM is afraid of how this character will play out.

As you want a character who won't overshadow, though, that might not be best. Beguiler from the PHBII is a possible consideration. Not quite rogue skill points, but does have trapfinding and disabling, and is an intelligence based spontaneous caster specialized in illusion and enchantment. (So you can make the search check, and then cast detect secret doors if you don't trust the result!) My boyfriend just started playing one in a game, and she seems to be working pretty well so far. And you could pair it with some sort of fighter type, as Beguilers get benefits from feinting in combat (increased DCs for their spells against flat-footed opponents), possibly a swashbuckler so you could add that high INT to damage after 3rd level. The character would be not too useful against undead, as the illusions and enchantments wouldn't work and the precision INT damage would go away, but you've got a cleric and other fighters already, so it doesn't matter. Just hide behind them (can always give the character a phobia of undead....:)).

Good luck with your gestalting!
Orchomenos
08-09-06, 02:44 PM I personally like Paladin/Wilder. You can manifest psionic powers in full-plate armor, you have your charisma to your power points, all saves, & touch AC. When using Wild Surge to boost your buffing powers, you get an additional bonus to your attack and damage rolls...

...but it's not at all what you're looking for. I would recommend some kind of ninja, too. The kind of quiet guy who's always hiding in the shadows, only showing to safely open the crypt door, and disappearing right after... You could combine it with a cleric or druid to get all good saves and some synergy for your high wisdom. A druid who can disappear at will sound good to me...
archerpwr
08-09-06, 05:02 PM warlock/ninja BEST combo ever (lil personal bias cuz im playing one right now and out dmg ing everyone at 4th lvl) jus go invis as swift action and eldritch blast plus SA dmg ranged every round. also almost as good as rogue for skills so jus fine if u dont want to deal with the traps. jus put some points into UMD for wands and scrolls to make use of the warlock class feature. and if the PCs start dieing you can jus fly away starting at 6th lvl and say that the NPC was jus a coward (make him/her have low con for an excuse never to put self in danger)

perfect NPC traveler to save the PCs if they lose or fly away from their wrath if u want something bad to happen.

oh and check out the Xailin showdown items thread in Magic and Magic items section its getting interesting.
wonlee76
08-09-06, 05:34 PM The tricky part about gestalt is MAD and limited feats to try to get the best out of 2 classes. So I tend to try to come up with combos that minimizes the MAD and classes that synergize well from a set of feats that benefits both classes.

Scout/Ranger synergizes really well. Excellent skill list and points from both sides. Archery is an automatic no brainer with a few freebie archery related feats from the Ranger side. Just focus on arhcery feats which will benefit both classes (PB Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Manyshot, etc.) and you're golden. And an Archery NPC to help the group is great since they are always in the back providing support really.

Bard/Cleric: Skill points from Bard. Buffing spells from bard. Buffing spells from cleric. No ASF in light armor. Keep a wand of find traps around to give you the trapfinding ability and max out search. You don't need to always disable a trap, you just need to figure out a way to get around it. If you set the personality right, this can be a pure buffing NPC for the group in combat and the helpful NPC for trapfinding when needed. He/she can easily stay in the background letting the group do their thing and only enhancing the group. Avoid plunking ranks in Bluff/Diplomacy or other social skills to give you a reasonable excuse to avoid the bard from stepping in the forefront of social interactions. Bards have enough skills on their list that they can specialize in so many other things (perform, knowledge skills, etc.). Even with a 14 Charisma, this bard could be a pretty competent buffer NPC using spells only to support the group.
Orchomenos
08-10-06, 02:15 PM Being bard wouldn't be that bad. You told us you wouldn't have a too high charisma, to not be the "party face". But what if you had a too high charisma to be the party face? You know, the party send you ask the barman for 2 more beers. One hour later, and you're still telling your life to the barman... Next time, the party will probably send someone else!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Terik Silverbow 08-07-06, 08:32 PM	Normally, I wouldn't ask for other opinions, but I don't have access to my multitude of tomes right now, and I am curious to boot. Here's the situation. My group will be using Gestalt Characters in my next campaign, which if you don't know, allows you to gain two classes at each character level, combining common features and gaining all unique features. My group currently contains: a Cleric/Sorcerer (striving for a custom arcane prestige class I cooked up that fits the theme of the campaign) a Knight/Marshall a Barbarian/Warmage (though I am going to talk to this guy and see if he understands the implications of such a combination) Now, given those existing characters, which are all starting at 1st level, by the way, I am going to create a character that can fill as many voids as possible within the party. All official WotC material is available, though I have not yet acquired the latest books (Tome of Battle being the big one, though I don't think fighter-types are really needed for this group). The big holes I see are trap-finding/disabling and other rogue abilities. Here's the kicker. I don't want to use rogue as one of the two classes for this character. I don't particularly enjoy playing rogues, and this character is meant to be involved in as little of the role-playing as possible (since I am DMing, and will be treating it as an ally adventuring with the party as opposed to a PC). The character will probably have no better than a 14 Cha, as I can't afford for the character to be charismatic enough (ever) to be considered the voice of the party. A low starting Cha will ensure that if nothing else, the cleric/sorcerer will be better. Stats will be rolled at a future time (I have no dice with me, and won't be back to them for almost two weeks), but that isn't terribly important to me, as whatever I roll, I will use them to their greatest effectiveness for the build. So throw me your ideas, and lets see how interesting things can get.
Crimson_Concerto 08-07-06, 08:57 PM	Well, if you don't like Rogue, how about Scout? Scout is good when combined with Fighter or Ranger to give them full BAB, better HD, and a much better feat selection. If you want to be ranged (where scouts are at least slightly better), the Fighter will open up MANY more feats. Ranged combat seems to rely on and benifit greatly lots of feats. However, if you want to be a melee scout, think about working your way up to Rapid Blits, a new feat in the PHBII.
a_psh 08-08-06, 03:21 AM	Artificers can also find traps via skills like a rogue, and clerics have that trap-detection spell. Either one of those might seem like you're upstaging the sorceror a bit, of course. You could always not give them a trap-finder. I tend to run very few traps in my games, if any, because they're just not set in tombs very much and no other place really calls for a lot of traps. (I don't like traps, so I avoid them.) If your campaign is likely to be very wilderness-y or very urban rather than very dungeon-y, just axe the traps -- they don't really make a lot of sense there, anyway.
kelvinaw273 08-08-06, 07:03 AM	I would try for monk/scout myself - great skills, amazing saves, trapfinding and TURBO charged movement :D Anything you cannot outfight you will certainly outrun! Now imagine skirmish with a stunning fist attached ...
Majick 08-08-06, 08:59 AM	Well, considering you get the best of both worlds with THAT type of system, you could recommend someone go a scout/rogue...my god, can you think of the sneak attack damage if you went a ranged character with Crossbow sniper and Deadeye shot O_O holy crap!
Elemental 08-08-06, 03:25 PM	Artificers can also find traps via skills like a rogue, and clerics have that trap-detection spell. Either one of those might seem like you're upstaging the sorceror a bit, of course. Spellthieves also have trap detection. There are also the four best trap-detection methods of all--Astral Construct, Summon Monster 1, Summon Nature's Ally 1 and Animate Dead. Just order the construct / creature / zombie to run through the room or open the door, while you watch for a safe distance. Astral Construct is probably the best, since there are no moral qualms about animating corpses or killing a living creature. Lastly, a warlock can simply destroy a potentially trapped item from a safe distance.
Darth Sephiroth 08-08-06, 04:29 PM	Well, my personal favorite for Gestault is Sorcerer/Monk, drop Sorcerer for something else once you reach the ability for 3rd level spells for the spellcasting Monk PrC from Complete Arcane, and if your rolling stats you can get some real fun out of it
gurullamen 08-08-06, 10:34 PM	My personal best and ab-soul-suckingly-evil-utely broken combo- the Warlock Ninja. The lack of Charisma can have a diminished effect if played right, and Ninjas are t3h l33tz0rz (or uber super mad cool if you prefer bad English). Alternatively, you could go two of the following Monk/Pirate/Ninja for each level, shifting the classes each level, and end by naming the monstrosity "Samuel L. Vin Norris," an overdeity in its own right and all without any of those crappy min-max-munchkinisms that PunPun had to use.
Millennium 08-08-06, 10:43 PM	I know you're not a fan of rogues, but you really might want to consider the Monk/Rogue class and emphasize the Monk side in your role-play. Sneak Attack plus Flurry is frickin frightening.
jennibert 08-09-06, 10:11 AM	I definitely have to agree with scout, as that skirmish can be evil. In fact, in a campaign we just built characters for, we had someone who went scout warlock. He took a bunch of ranged feats, carries no weapon, chose invocations without DCs so he doesn't have to worry about Charisma, and does 5d6 damage each round he moves 10 feet with Eldritch Blast + Skirmish at 6th level. My DM is afraid of how this character will play out. As you want a character who won't overshadow, though, that might not be best. Beguiler from the PHBII is a possible consideration. Not quite rogue skill points, but does have trapfinding and disabling, and is an intelligence based spontaneous caster specialized in illusion and enchantment. (So you can make the search check, and then cast detect secret doors if you don't trust the result!) My boyfriend just started playing one in a game, and she seems to be working pretty well so far. And you could pair it with some sort of fighter type, as Beguilers get benefits from feinting in combat (increased DCs for their spells against flat-footed opponents), possibly a swashbuckler so you could add that high INT to damage after 3rd level. The character would be not too useful against undead, as the illusions and enchantments wouldn't work and the precision INT damage would go away, but you've got a cleric and other fighters already, so it doesn't matter. Just hide behind them (can always give the character a phobia of undead....:)). Good luck with your gestalting!
Orchomenos 08-09-06, 02:44 PM	I personally like Paladin/Wilder. You can manifest psionic powers in full-plate armor, you have your charisma to your power points, all saves, & touch AC. When using Wild Surge to boost your buffing powers, you get an additional bonus to your attack and damage rolls... ...but it's not at all what you're looking for. I would recommend some kind of ninja, too. The kind of quiet guy who's always hiding in the shadows, only showing to safely open the crypt door, and disappearing right after... You could combine it with a cleric or druid to get all good saves and some synergy for your high wisdom. A druid who can disappear at will sound good to me...
archerpwr 08-09-06, 05:02 PM	warlock/ninja BEST combo ever (lil personal bias cuz im playing one right now and out dmg ing everyone at 4th lvl) jus go invis as swift action and eldritch blast plus SA dmg ranged every round. also almost as good as rogue for skills so jus fine if u dont want to deal with the traps. jus put some points into UMD for wands and scrolls to make use of the warlock class feature. and if the PCs start dieing you can jus fly away starting at 6th lvl and say that the NPC was jus a coward (make him/her have low con for an excuse never to put self in danger) perfect NPC traveler to save the PCs if they lose or fly away from their wrath if u want something bad to happen. oh and check out the Xailin showdown items thread in Magic and Magic items section its getting interesting.
wonlee76 08-09-06, 05:34 PM	The tricky part about gestalt is MAD and limited feats to try to get the best out of 2 classes. So I tend to try to come up with combos that minimizes the MAD and classes that synergize well from a set of feats that benefits both classes. Scout/Ranger synergizes really well. Excellent skill list and points from both sides. Archery is an automatic no brainer with a few freebie archery related feats from the Ranger side. Just focus on arhcery feats which will benefit both classes (PB Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Manyshot, etc.) and you're golden. And an Archery NPC to help the group is great since they are always in the back providing support really. Bard/Cleric: Skill points from Bard. Buffing spells from bard. Buffing spells from cleric. No ASF in light armor. Keep a wand of find traps around to give you the trapfinding ability and max out search. You don't need to always disable a trap, you just need to figure out a way to get around it. If you set the personality right, this can be a pure buffing NPC for the group in combat and the helpful NPC for trapfinding when needed. He/she can easily stay in the background letting the group do their thing and only enhancing the group. Avoid plunking ranks in Bluff/Diplomacy or other social skills to give you a reasonable excuse to avoid the bard from stepping in the forefront of social interactions. Bards have enough skills on their list that they can specialize in so many other things (perform, knowledge skills, etc.). Even with a 14 Charisma, this bard could be a pretty competent buffer NPC using spells only to support the group.
Orchomenos 08-10-06, 02:15 PM	Being bard wouldn't be that bad. You told us you wouldn't have a too high charisma, to not be the "party face". But what if you had a too high charisma to be the party face? You know, the party send you ask the barman for 2 more beers. One hour later, and you're still telling your life to the barman... Next time, the party will probably send someone else!