Gestalt monk-warlock, any good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt monk-warlock, any good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nabuchadnysar
02-21-07, 03:28 AM I'm starting a gestalt game and was wondering if a monk-warlock (yes, I know LE) was any good. Eldritch blast seem to compensate for the monks lack of range attack and would be could for those creature with DR silver or cold iron. The hideous blow invocation would add some puch to its melee attack too. So, am I in the potatoes or is it a great mix?

Also, do the essence and blast shape invocations need a stantard action to be cast and then, the next turn, you can fire your eldritch blast? Or can you do the invocation and the blast in the same turn?

Thanks alot, and forgive my french ;)
TheChilliGod
02-21-07, 03:31 AM Reasonable mix, considering that you're going gestalt (Wouldn't know much, tho, I've never played gestalt). I'd recommend maxing out concentration ranks, just so's you can use your invocations in melee like you'll probably be in if you want to use your unarmed strike - hideous blow combo to maximum effect.

As to your question, the latter would be correct. Using Blast Shape / Eldritch Essence invocations is considered part of making the eldritch blast itself, no additional actions required.

Hope I helped.
nabuchadnysar
02-21-07, 03:36 AM Yes it does,thanks.

Has anybody tried the mix? And yes it does look like a DBZ character. So what :)
Khandar
02-21-07, 04:25 AM Sounds like a fun character. I'd suggest the Decisive Strike variant monk from PHB2, seems like it would work a lot better with Hideous Blow (I don't exactly remember how it works, as I don;t have my books on hand, but it would be awesome if you could use both on one attack)
Orchomenos
02-21-07, 09:57 AM Doesn't Warlock need a great charisma, the usual dump-stat for a monk? Or am I in the potatoes? ;)
Comus
02-21-07, 10:54 AM Doesn't Warlock need a great charisma, the usual dump-stat for a monk? Or am I in the potatoes? ;)

Depends. Warlock doesn't really need any stat, though it benefits from all of them. Charisma for saving throws, as an example. Unless you're using stuff that requires a saving throw, you can dump it.
Far_Traveler
02-21-07, 11:46 AM See if you could create an invocation that creates a monk weapon, and cite eldritch glaive as precedent.

Why wouldn't your character find a way to do something like this?

Try something like eldritch claw, substitutes eldritch blast damage for unarmed, touch attack too.
nabuchadnysar
02-21-07, 12:17 PM Eldritch claw? Very nice.
smallfishnova
02-21-07, 01:21 PM I don't think it is a very good mix...

It depends on which class you are more willing to play but warlock/monk is just not very effecient...(It also depends on which lv you are playing)

Warlock/monk..5 abilities is useful while most monk dump cha and warlock pump wis...though the 4+int skill point help you a bit for low int...
(In my game, my players choose ranger/rogue or have int 14...@_@")

For a warlock, you can't mix fluury of blow and EB together (unless for modifeid version of eldritch glaive, if your DM approve..)

Also, you can wear armor and even use shield...if you rely on monk AC, your AC will be quite low.

For the speed, after you get the flying invocation...you would be flying all day..

If it is for role-play reason or think it is just fun, just go with it...:P But don't expect it to be effecient in combat.

Actually, warlock/scout is much more effecient...
ravenshrike
02-21-07, 02:36 PM Unlike Barbs/monks, warlocks are not bound by alignment. It's just that they tend to be chaotic/evil because of the source of their powers.
ravenshrike
02-21-07, 02:39 PM For the speed, after you get the flying invocation...you would be flying all day..

The 'lock invocation is based off of the characters land speed, so yes you would see a 90 ft. per round flying monk which if they took improved flight moving around with perfect manueverablility. Combine with expeditious dodge and you get an automatic +2 to AC.
danielinthewolvesden
02-21-07, 03:17 PM Warlocks lose a lot if they do not have a good UMD, which requires CHA.
Nakat
02-21-07, 03:38 PM Warlocks lose a lot if they do not have a good UMD, which requires CHA. somewhat, but also remember that if you max ranks even with a 10 CHA, you end up with an auto 17 at level 4, as you get Decieve Item. Not amazing, but with items and/or CHA bonuses, there you go.
OamuTheMonk
02-21-07, 04:59 PM I have the feat/invocation combo for you. Sun School tactical feat+Flee the scene=teleport next to any target within range(standard action) then make an attack against him(free action) then tumble away(move action). Sweet.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
02-21-07, 05:43 PM I'd advise not going straight monk/warlock. On one side take a one level dip. It causes your BABs on the two sides to be staggered, effectively granting you full BAB. Literally full BAB if that dip is at first level into a full BAB class. I absolutely love that trick. ;)

I'll agree that you should go with the decisive strike variant. Flurry doesn't help you unless you use a full attack action, which is incompatible with Hideous Blow.

It's a decent build. I personally prefer the warlock/hexblade/blackguard combo. Potentially 3 x your CHA modifier to saves. Now that's an evil character. Or is it an evil player . . . I always get the two confused.
kelvinaw273
02-22-07, 12:51 AM I'd advise not going straight monk/warlock. On one side take a one level dip. It causes your BABs on the two sides to be staggered, effectively granting you full BAB. Literally full BAB if that dip is at first level into a full BAB class. I absolutely love that trick. ;)

Er, this is Gestalt, not multi-class.

I have to say it isn't a combo I would have chosen, but it is a good combo.
nabuchadnysar
02-22-07, 02:31 AM I don't have the PHB2. But I might buy it, if somebody explain what is Decisive Strike. Just quick browse. Don't want to offend the all seeing gods here ;).

And where can I find this eldritch glaive that every body is talking about? And is that book worth buying?

Thank you very much.
Dnjscott
02-22-07, 02:36 AM I would advice against this combination, and I have played many gestalt games. The best Gestalts, in my experience, round out the weakness in the other class. Since Warlock and Monk are both medium BAB and low AC characters I don't think it adds much. I'd gestalt with Rogue or Scout as to get some all-important boosters to Eldritch Blast. With Monk // Warlock you'll perpetually have to choose between Flurry and EB, which is a bummer.
nabuchadnysar
02-22-07, 02:42 AM I thought that my character would use EB for range attacks and flurry for melee combat. Use hideous blow for that strike that required getting closer to the opponant.

So is a Truenamer/warlock any better? They both use high charisma. Or is really hexblade/warlock just the best combo?

And I wanted so much that DBZ feel :(
Tyler Do'Urden
02-22-07, 02:47 AM I'd advise not going straight monk/warlock. On one side take a one level dip. It causes your BABs on the two sides to be staggered, effectively granting you full BAB.No it doesn't. That's not how gestalt works.

When a gestalt character gains a level, you choose which BAB to use based on which class has the better progression. There are three BAB progressions; poor (level / 2), average (3*level / 4), and good (level). "Better progression" does not, I repeat, does not mean "which line on the table is increasing by 1."

If you're a monk/warlock 20, you have 20 levels of average BAB (+15). If you're a monk/fighter 1|monk/warlock 19, you have 1 level of good BAB and 19 levels of average BAB (still +15).

Really, I thought this myth was dead.

Doesn't a monk/warlock pretty much have to be lawful evil?
Elsydeon
02-22-07, 02:57 AM Monks suffer from MAD... Gestalt particularly should be about the best way to add to your primary abilities, while keeping your secondary abilities viable.

For example, the Psion/Fighter can wear all armor, cast in it, has a big HD, full BAB, etc. But the cheese comes in the form of feats you can take to make him awesome. So many fighter bonus feats. You're not really interested in the fighting ability (though the BAB is nice for touch/ray), but the rockin' feat progression and HP.

It seems this combo just makes two characters in one, with a little synergy. There are probably better routes to take, but in gestalt nothing is going to be weak really, except compared to other gestalt.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
02-22-07, 12:12 PM No it doesn't. That's not how gestalt works.

When a gestalt character gains a level, you choose which BAB to use based on which class has the better progression. There are three BAB progressions; poor (level / 2), average (3*level / 4), and good (level). "Better progression" does not, I repeat, does not mean "which line on the table is increasing by 1."

If you're a monk/warlock 20, you have 20 levels of average BAB (+15). If you're a monk/fighter 1|monk/warlock 19, you have 1 level of good BAB and 19 levels of average BAB (still +15).

Really, I thought this myth was dead.

Doesn't a monk/warlock pretty much have to be lawful evil?

Wow, thanks for the correction. I never knew that.

To the OP: Decisive Strike replaces Flurry of Blows. You take the same attack roll penalty to instead deal double damage on the strike. It's useful here because it can be used as part of a standard action. Which means you can use it with Hideous Blow. Just a warning, it won't double your eldritch blast damage - dice don't double. As for Eldritch Glaive, it's an invocation in Dragon Magic. To date it's the only way to get a full attack with eldritch blast (now a melee touch attack). Personally, I like Dragon Magic, but then again, I'm absolutely crazy about dragons.

Dragon Magic does offer something akin to what you're looking for. A PrC called the Dragon Descendent. It progresses monk features while giving a few new abilities. One is very similar to eldritch blast. So there's your DBZ character. You could also choose to get sneak attack, DR, or AoOs for being attacked. Awesome little class. And it would occupy your monk side, so you're free for anything on the other side. Maybe go ranger (ranged) for the other side. Full BAB. Wisdom for both sides. Improve that little magic blast you get. Pick up Zen Archery to add WIS to the attack roll.
kelvinaw273
02-22-07, 05:00 PM A monk warlock does iron out the one major weakness of the monk class, lack of ranged attack. Otherwise it does not really gel well, I don't think.

What does gel well with the warlock?

Wizard, sorcerer, psion, psychic warrior or cleric would all go well with the warlock. Rogue would work, too. While Wizard and sorcerer can't use the warlock's armour they enhance their ranged effectiveness with their wide variety of spells, with eldritch blast as a good fallback. Cleric synergizes nicely with the warlock, as does psychic warrior. Psion is a great choice, as you havbe the staying power of the warlock combined with the nova-power of the psion.

With Monk, you have a lot of options, but some are btter than others:

Wizard and sorcerer can work well, but you have a very MAD character.
Cleric//Monk (or any Wis-based Divine Caster//Monk) works awesomely, Fighter (or similar)//Monk can work very well, as it overcomes the monk's weaker BAB. Rogue//Monk can be awesome, and the variations (Scout or Ninja//Monk) are likewise good. Of the psionic classes the Ardent and the Psychic Warrior have the best synergy with the Monk.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nabuchadnysar 02-21-07, 03:28 AM	I'm starting a gestalt game and was wondering if a monk-warlock (yes, I know LE) was any good. Eldritch blast seem to compensate for the monks lack of range attack and would be could for those creature with DR silver or cold iron. The hideous blow invocation would add some puch to its melee attack too. So, am I in the potatoes or is it a great mix? Also, do the essence and blast shape invocations need a stantard action to be cast and then, the next turn, you can fire your eldritch blast? Or can you do the invocation and the blast in the same turn? Thanks alot, and forgive my french ;)
TheChilliGod 02-21-07, 03:31 AM	Reasonable mix, considering that you're going gestalt (Wouldn't know much, tho, I've never played gestalt). I'd recommend maxing out concentration ranks, just so's you can use your invocations in melee like you'll probably be in if you want to use your unarmed strike - hideous blow combo to maximum effect. As to your question, the latter would be correct. Using Blast Shape / Eldritch Essence invocations is considered part of making the eldritch blast itself, no additional actions required. Hope I helped.
nabuchadnysar 02-21-07, 03:36 AM	Yes it does,thanks. Has anybody tried the mix? And yes it does look like a DBZ character. So what :)
Khandar 02-21-07, 04:25 AM	Sounds like a fun character. I'd suggest the Decisive Strike variant monk from PHB2, seems like it would work a lot better with Hideous Blow (I don't exactly remember how it works, as I don;t have my books on hand, but it would be awesome if you could use both on one attack)
Orchomenos 02-21-07, 09:57 AM	Doesn't Warlock need a great charisma, the usual dump-stat for a monk? Or am I in the potatoes? ;)
Comus 02-21-07, 10:54 AM	Doesn't Warlock need a great charisma, the usual dump-stat for a monk? Or am I in the potatoes? ;) Depends. Warlock doesn't really need any stat, though it benefits from all of them. Charisma for saving throws, as an example. Unless you're using stuff that requires a saving throw, you can dump it.
Far_Traveler 02-21-07, 11:46 AM	See if you could create an invocation that creates a monk weapon, and cite eldritch glaive as precedent. Why wouldn't your character find a way to do something like this? Try something like eldritch claw, substitutes eldritch blast damage for unarmed, touch attack too.
nabuchadnysar 02-21-07, 12:17 PM	Eldritch claw? Very nice.
smallfishnova 02-21-07, 01:21 PM	I don't think it is a very good mix... It depends on which class you are more willing to play but warlock/monk is just not very effecient...(It also depends on which lv you are playing) Warlock/monk..5 abilities is useful while most monk dump cha and warlock pump wis...though the 4+int skill point help you a bit for low int... (In my game, my players choose ranger/rogue or have int 14...@_@") For a warlock, you can't mix fluury of blow and EB together (unless for modifeid version of eldritch glaive, if your DM approve..) Also, you can wear armor and even use shield...if you rely on monk AC, your AC will be quite low. For the speed, after you get the flying invocation...you would be flying all day.. If it is for role-play reason or think it is just fun, just go with it...:P But don't expect it to be effecient in combat. Actually, warlock/scout is much more effecient...
ravenshrike 02-21-07, 02:36 PM	Unlike Barbs/monks, warlocks are not bound by alignment. It's just that they tend to be chaotic/evil because of the source of their powers.
ravenshrike 02-21-07, 02:39 PM	For the speed, after you get the flying invocation...you would be flying all day.. The 'lock invocation is based off of the characters land speed, so yes you would see a 90 ft. per round flying monk which if they took improved flight moving around with perfect manueverablility. Combine with expeditious dodge and you get an automatic +2 to AC.
danielinthewolvesden 02-21-07, 03:17 PM	Warlocks lose a lot if they do not have a good UMD, which requires CHA.
Nakat 02-21-07, 03:38 PM	Warlocks lose a lot if they do not have a good UMD, which requires CHA. somewhat, but also remember that if you max ranks even with a 10 CHA, you end up with an auto 17 at level 4, as you get Decieve Item. Not amazing, but with items and/or CHA bonuses, there you go.
OamuTheMonk 02-21-07, 04:59 PM	I have the feat/invocation combo for you. Sun School tactical feat+Flee the scene=teleport next to any target within range(standard action) then make an attack against him(free action) then tumble away(move action). Sweet.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 02-21-07, 05:43 PM	I'd advise not going straight monk/warlock. On one side take a one level dip. It causes your BABs on the two sides to be staggered, effectively granting you full BAB. Literally full BAB if that dip is at first level into a full BAB class. I absolutely love that trick. ;) I'll agree that you should go with the decisive strike variant. Flurry doesn't help you unless you use a full attack action, which is incompatible with Hideous Blow. It's a decent build. I personally prefer the warlock/hexblade/blackguard combo. Potentially 3 x your CHA modifier to saves. Now that's an evil character. Or is it an evil player . . . I always get the two confused.
kelvinaw273 02-22-07, 12:51 AM	I'd advise not going straight monk/warlock. On one side take a one level dip. It causes your BABs on the two sides to be staggered, effectively granting you full BAB. Literally full BAB if that dip is at first level into a full BAB class. I absolutely love that trick. ;) Er, this is Gestalt, not multi-class. I have to say it isn't a combo I would have chosen, but it is a good combo.
nabuchadnysar 02-22-07, 02:31 AM	I don't have the PHB2. But I might buy it, if somebody explain what is Decisive Strike. Just quick browse. Don't want to offend the all seeing gods here ;). And where can I find this eldritch glaive that every body is talking about? And is that book worth buying? Thank you very much.
Dnjscott 02-22-07, 02:36 AM	I would advice against this combination, and I have played many gestalt games. The best Gestalts, in my experience, round out the weakness in the other class. Since Warlock and Monk are both medium BAB and low AC characters I don't think it adds much. I'd gestalt with Rogue or Scout as to get some all-important boosters to Eldritch Blast. With Monk // Warlock you'll perpetually have to choose between Flurry and EB, which is a bummer.
nabuchadnysar 02-22-07, 02:42 AM	I thought that my character would use EB for range attacks and flurry for melee combat. Use hideous blow for that strike that required getting closer to the opponant. So is a Truenamer/warlock any better? They both use high charisma. Or is really hexblade/warlock just the best combo? And I wanted so much that DBZ feel :(
Tyler Do'Urden 02-22-07, 02:47 AM	I'd advise not going straight monk/warlock. On one side take a one level dip. It causes your BABs on the two sides to be staggered, effectively granting you full BAB.No it doesn't. That's not how gestalt works. When a gestalt character gains a level, you choose which BAB to use based on which class has the better progression. There are three BAB progressions; poor (level / 2), average (3*level / 4), and good (level). "Better progression" does not, I repeat, does not mean "which line on the table is increasing by 1." If you're a monk/warlock 20, you have 20 levels of average BAB (+15). If you're a monk/fighter 1\|monk/warlock 19, you have 1 level of good BAB and 19 levels of average BAB (still +15). Really, I thought this myth was dead. Doesn't a monk/warlock pretty much have to be lawful evil?
Elsydeon 02-22-07, 02:57 AM	Monks suffer from MAD... Gestalt particularly should be about the best way to add to your primary abilities, while keeping your secondary abilities viable. For example, the Psion/Fighter can wear all armor, cast in it, has a big HD, full BAB, etc. But the cheese comes in the form of feats you can take to make him awesome. So many fighter bonus feats. You're not really interested in the fighting ability (though the BAB is nice for touch/ray), but the rockin' feat progression and HP. It seems this combo just makes two characters in one, with a little synergy. There are probably better routes to take, but in gestalt nothing is going to be weak really, except compared to other gestalt.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 02-22-07, 12:12 PM	No it doesn't. That's not how gestalt works. When a gestalt character gains a level, you choose which BAB to use based on which class has the better progression. There are three BAB progressions; poor (level / 2), average (3*level / 4), and good (level). "Better progression" does not, I repeat, does not mean "which line on the table is increasing by 1." If you're a monk/warlock 20, you have 20 levels of average BAB (+15). If you're a monk/fighter 1\|monk/warlock 19, you have 1 level of good BAB and 19 levels of average BAB (still +15). Really, I thought this myth was dead. Doesn't a monk/warlock pretty much have to be lawful evil? Wow, thanks for the correction. I never knew that. To the OP: Decisive Strike replaces Flurry of Blows. You take the same attack roll penalty to instead deal double damage on the strike. It's useful here because it can be used as part of a standard action. Which means you can use it with Hideous Blow. Just a warning, it won't double your eldritch blast damage - dice don't double. As for Eldritch Glaive, it's an invocation in Dragon Magic. To date it's the only way to get a full attack with eldritch blast (now a melee touch attack). Personally, I like Dragon Magic, but then again, I'm absolutely crazy about dragons. Dragon Magic does offer something akin to what you're looking for. A PrC called the Dragon Descendent. It progresses monk features while giving a few new abilities. One is very similar to eldritch blast. So there's your DBZ character. You could also choose to get sneak attack, DR, or AoOs for being attacked. Awesome little class. And it would occupy your monk side, so you're free for anything on the other side. Maybe go ranger (ranged) for the other side. Full BAB. Wisdom for both sides. Improve that little magic blast you get. Pick up Zen Archery to add WIS to the attack roll.
kelvinaw273 02-22-07, 05:00 PM	A monk warlock does iron out the one major weakness of the monk class, lack of ranged attack. Otherwise it does not really gel well, I don't think. What does gel well with the warlock? Wizard, sorcerer, psion, psychic warrior or cleric would all go well with the warlock. Rogue would work, too. While Wizard and sorcerer can't use the warlock's armour they enhance their ranged effectiveness with their wide variety of spells, with eldritch blast as a good fallback. Cleric synergizes nicely with the warlock, as does psychic warrior. Psion is a great choice, as you havbe the staying power of the warlock combined with the nova-power of the psion. With Monk, you have a lot of options, but some are btter than others: Wizard and sorcerer can work well, but you have a very MAD character. Cleric//Monk (or any Wis-based Divine Caster//Monk) works awesomely, Fighter (or similar)//Monk can work very well, as it overcomes the monk's weaker BAB. Rogue//Monk can be awesome, and the variations (Scout or Ninja//Monk) are likewise good. Of the psionic classes the Ardent and the Psychic Warrior have the best synergy with the Monk.