Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stargate525 06-19-06, 12:00 AM	I need some help. The DM who runs our games when I don't is a mad railroader. For instance, today we went a bit into the woods, and then 'you feel a prick on your neck and you drop unconscious'. :confused: No spot check? Listen? I pointed this out to him. "Alright, make a listen check." I roll, natural 20. With bonuses, it's 38. Him. No roll, no referencing notes, no nothing. "You don't hear them." ok... This is a little wonky to start, but I'm trying to roll with it. We're bound in the cart. I ask: "Did they leave our clothes?" "Yes, but they took your weapons." "What did they search?" "uhh..." *rolls* "18." "Ok, then they didn't find the dagger hidden in my cloak..." "Nope, they took your cloak." "Why?" "They just did." Now, I could go on about how they then proceeded to sell us as slaves, with no defence for ourselves, instead of execution, for walking in the kings wood. This is a Neutral Good society by the way... And how the person who bought us has collars that can detect when we're trying to remove them, doing osmething illegal, or outside the compound, delivers and electric shock, and has enough cash for 30+ of them. I brought this to him, how he was sort of railroading, and he replies, "Yeah, so? We agreed to it." :eek: WHAT? I made no such agreement, and said so. Apparently he ran this by the two others in the campaign and they were 'fine with it', so majority rules and I just have to roll with it. I ask him if there was a way to escape, he says no. :headexplo ...yeah. Now, I would rather reform this DM if at all possible, instead of drop him (I liked this campaign...). I'm open to suggestions.
Duck Swordsman 06-19-06, 12:11 AM	PHB across the face, preferably sharp corner first.
stargate525 06-19-06, 12:16 AM	PHB across the face, preferably sharp corner first. in this case, 'reform' does not equal 'maul with expensive 30$ book'.
Duck Swordsman 06-19-06, 12:21 AM	in this case, 'reform' does not equal 'maul with expensive 30$ book'. Be good reinforcement... <.< Seriously though, you gotta really express distaste with the direction of the game. Everytime you get railroaded, make sure to express your discontent (and nice, loud 'Chooo chooo!' works good and annoys like the dickens). If you can, discuss the fact that the kind of DMing being done is called 'railroading' and here is why. Have a dictionary on hand to back it up. And if the DM won't listen or touts that he's right and you're wrong, I'd say walk away. You're not gonna have fun being railroaded later if you hate it now.
stargate525 06-19-06, 12:28 AM	And if the DM won't listen or touts that he's right and you're wrong, I'd say walk away. You're not gonna have fun being railroaded later if you hate it now. Problem is if I walk, so do my players for when I DM. They're my friends, and again, reform attempts before walking. Annoying the hell out of him isn't the way to do it.
aftercrescent 06-19-06, 12:37 AM	Talk to him away from the table. Tell him that it was horribly unfair of him to ask two other people and not you for how you felt. You have opinions and they matter too. (maybe :P ) But seriously, talk to him away from the table. Either he'll be a rational person and you can work things out or he'll be irrational. It's supposed to be fun for everyone, make sure he understands that, because if he doesn't, you won't be enjoying the game.
Comus 06-19-06, 12:40 AM	Screw with his plots. Don't walk, but just refuse to do anything that's being dumped on your lap from the gods. He might kill your character. If he does, make a new character... that also refuses to take the railroad. Don't get attached. Repeat this process until something gives, and don't be the something.
utilitarian 06-19-06, 01:07 AM	The best way to deal with a railroader is to do something completely unexpected. Sold into slavery? Attack the guards with your teeth if neccisary for as long as possible. Need justification? Your character would rather be dead than sold into slavery. Railroading DMs are a double edged sword. On the one hand they force you into unwanted situations, on the other hand, they're usually loathe to kill off your characters, as this disrupts thier carefully planned railroad plot. Basically what you do is show him the consequences of his actions. Your character deals with the situation he's put in. If you're chained up in a cell... gather information about that cell. What are the chains made of? If the answer is "they're standard iron mantacles" look up the escape artist or str burst DC for standard iron mantacles and make the appropreate checks as often as you are allowed according to the RAW of the skill for retests. Of course, a truely determined conductor will simply keep telling you that you fail, even if by all rights you should have succeded. At this point, it really boils down to you and your DM. If I were to approach my DM on this issue, I would put it like this: "The game has rules for a reason. I can't play in a game where the rules keep changing." Which is a totally fair statement. Start asking for the DCs of various things you're trying to do ahead of time. If the DM refuses to tell you, ask him to, instead, write the DC down on a piece of paper and give it to you after your roll, so that you know he's not just making up the DC to be higher than whatever you roll. If the number on the paper is something ridiculous, ask him how he derived that DC. IE, if the Iron Mantacles have a burst DC of 40, ask him how they got so high when Iron Mantacles are supposed to be burst DC 26 or whatever it is. If he says "they're better than normal mantacles" point out that even Masterwork Mantacles are only DC 28. If he claims they're made of some kind of special material, point out that you specifically asked what material they were made of and he told you it was iron. If he retroactively makes them adamantine, go back to your original statement "The game has rules for a reason. I can't play in a game where the rules keep changing." *WHEW* Big paragraph, my appoligies The bottom line is that AD&D is a rolePLAYING game. It is not simply having your DM tell you a story about some guys and have you roll some dice occasionally. If the players in a game are not in control of thier characters then how can they be said to even play them? We all get railroaded sometimes. Sometimes we, as players, have to let our DMs take us in a certain direction because they're the ones running the campaign and taking the time to draw up a plot and everything. If we don't sometimes go along with it, it makes things difficult for everyone. But it's a give and take relationship, if your DM doesn't let you off the leash for five sessions in a row, what's the point of even playing.
RedWizard 06-19-06, 10:43 AM	To be honest, I doubt you are going to be able to convince this guy to change his DM style. He seems to be the type who DMs in order to play out his own grand adventures that are more about his own fun then the players. He assumes that by the end of the adventure you will suddenly understand just how cool the adventure was and it will all click. Unfortunately, he does not understand that a good adventure is not a single story but a series of events with no one particular guarranteed ending. You need to decide whether you play for your own enjoyment or to keep other people happy. My time is precious to me and until someone pays me to play in a game I get no enjoyment from I choose to play only in games I am enjoying. I suggest you do the same and if your group also abandons him, that might indicate they are also not enjoying themselves, but in the end thats their individual choice to make, do not feel guilty for them making their own choice just because you made yours.
Morka 06-19-06, 11:21 AM	I'll go against the rest of the posters, and say: give the guy a chance, embark the train and enjoy the scenery. Perhaps does he have an excellent adventure that just doesn't work in the King's Wood, or wherever the game is currently. Did the other players agreed to be railroaded, or to play an adventure where "they will be lead into slavery into X place, then have a chance to escape and take revenge"? But of course, if your train trip is boring, feel free to step out at the next call and continue horse-back! :P
Carpe Diem 06-19-06, 12:04 PM	Give it a whirl, maybe he has something interesting planned. You could at least give it a chance. The utter lack of saving throws is a problem of our current DM as well. He doesn't let us know why we couldn't save or what the DC of the save was on certain occasions that he seems to have planned. [sblock=My Similar Railroad Adventure]We were going to a cabin in a forest to investigate the disappearance of roughly twenty townsfolk. When we got there, we discovered a hole in the ground. The darkvision of our Whisper Gnome Rogue could tell that it had a roof and was manufactured, and he could see the bottom so he jumped down (Ring of Feather Falling) to investigate. He asks what he sees and the DM says that he sees a door, but as he goes over to investigate, we hear it opening. I quickly threw down a rope, but the DM said "Give me your character sheets," to the Rogue. No explanation, just the Rogue got snuffed. Understandably agitated, we pressed on towards the cabin not willing to have the same happen to us. We get to the cabin and see three people standing on the roof. Our healer gets picked up via telekinesis (no save) and is removed from the game as well. Everyone disappears, so the remaining party member and I go inside. We get into the basement and find our party members are victim to a Body Leech's cocoon trick. We free the party and the missing villagers and foray deeper into the dungeon. Suddenly, it gets very dark. In fact, pitch black. I ask the members of the party with darkvision what they see, but the DM says, "nothing." The Paladin instantly cast daylight (which overpowers darkness and negates deeper darkness) to no effect. Realizing that I am either unfamiliar with the spell or the DM was using 3.0 darkness that somehow resists daylight, we push in hoping to find a door into a room without darkness. Suddenly, I get punched in the face by a vampire who seems to have no troubles seeing in the darkness at all. It's a good thing that this happened to be a baatezu vampire otherwise he would have been as blind as everyone else [/sarcasm].[/spoiler] Seriously, if he keeps ruining your fun with this slavery stuff that's not going anywhere or if he doesn't allow you to take saves, two options. 1) Warforged: take the proper stuff and you are immune to everything, so if he doesn't allow a save, explain that you are immune to it. I've got a character that does a similar thing to my DM. DM: "Suddenly, your Paladin falls unconscious." Me: "I'm immune to it." DM: "How?" Me: "I'm immune to things that don't allow saves or spell resistance, check my sheet." DM:"Well it was a drow knockout poison." Me: "DC 17? I've got a +43 on saves against poison, I guess I'm not immune after all..." You should at least get a save, if not explain that you are immune so he gives you a DC and spell. If you are Warforged, you are likely immune to it anyhow. 2) If he keeps railroading you, there is one catch-all solution: Frenzied Berserker. Got a DM that doesn't really know the rules, and uses them against you? Or maybe a DM that won't allow you to just play the game and have fun? Maybe he won't let you be a certain race. The solution you need is the Frenzied Berserker. Your first Frenzied Berserker level can be 7th character level if you are a human. Bring in the Berserker, when the slavers close kill them all. If he pulls that no save BS, then you are a slave. When you wake up, immediately frenzy, rage and dive at the nearest guard. No manacles in any published material will hold you. Keep it up until he gets frustrated and tries to talk to you about playing something else, then it's your fun in his campaign vs. his fun in his campaign.
Comus 06-19-06, 12:29 PM	Along those lines, if the DM won't let you use a FB, or if you can't get to a high enough level... Build an unarmed fighter, maybe with a level or two of barbarian (with destructive rage to break manacles, if there's any point in even trying), and just flip out and kill people all day. You're in a cell? Start trying to tear the door from its hinges. That doesn't work? Power attack it and try to smash it. Still nothing? Wait for someone to open the cell, then rush them. But, I guess you'd prefer a solution for a rouge with a shock collar. Here's a quick one - suicide. No, seriously. Say your character would rather die than be a slave, and take your own life. Only takes a full-round action. If you live, then he won't kill you, and so feel free to go ahead and burn down the place, or something. If you manage to die, make a new character and see what happens to it. Of course, there's always the option of talking to the DM and trying to ask him why he's railroading you. But that's just crazy.
Klmall 06-19-06, 12:39 PM	Some other advice is this guys maybe new to DMing so he's still learning the ropes and trying to explain his story. Granted he needs to learn that it still needs to be fun for people. Also try not to challenge him at the table, I bet you'll get better results if you do it after. That way you don't interfere with the game and also he'll feel less threatend and hopefully more cooperative. Also if you have the DMG 2 handy there are several really good tips in there for new DMs. And also laws of DMing. Best thing tho is if your not having fun express that after the game, and remember this is for you too.
Giant_Moth 06-19-06, 01:08 PM	I think some of you people are confusing railroading with going above the rules. Now railroading a story might not be very fun for the players, forcing them into a certain set of story or adventure might not be the funniest thing ever. Although some of you are forgetting the golden rule of D&D, and that's the DM is always right. If he choses to change a rule or go above it for the sake of the game, the story or the roleplay, then he is perfectly allowed to do that. It's only if you feel he is abusing his power to completly railroad the adventure or campaign that you should start to complain. For example your DM might want you to be ambushed and captured, he may give you options to escape but you might fail, and in the end maybe he has to go above the rules to make the story and the RP go on. Personally I have been faced in many situations where the rules have just been in the way, rather than helpfull for the roleplay. I dont particularly like games turning from roleplaying into rollplaying, and I have had situations with my old group where my players enjoyed to argue more with me as the DM when their PC superiority is challenged from anything, instead of roleplaying. But I do think the OP's DM has gone way past the line..
Thelandrach 06-19-06, 01:16 PM	in this case, 'reform' does not equal 'maul with expensive 30$ book'. Well, then, use the softcover one from the new Player's Kit. A little cheaper, and you can smack him several times for the same net effect. More seriously: Railroads run both ways. If he wants to railroad, get behind and push. Ask him to make roleplaying decisions for you. Ask him to make combat decisions for you. Every. Single. Time. Get the other two players to do it. Have every single action, decision, whatever, decided and done by Mr. Conductor, and hopefully he'll get over himself and back off. And, if not, by the time you're done with this tactic, he'll be playing your character for you well enough that you can bow out and go find another group, and it won't affect his campaign at all.
Docrailgun 06-19-06, 01:25 PM	(Dino alert!) Back in my day, there was a thing called a "story", that had nothing to do with Spot checks, Search checks, concealment of daggers, or how outrageous one's Diplomacy score was. Yes, you definitely need a new DM, one that will let you do whatever you want. Better yet... run the game yourself. I need some help. The DM who runs our games when I don't is a mad railroader. For instance, today we went a bit into the woods, and then 'you feel a prick on your neck and you drop unconscious'. :confused: No spot check? Listen? I pointed this out to him. "Alright, make a listen check." I roll, natural 20. With bonuses, it's 38. Him. No roll, no referencing notes, no nothing. "You don't hear them." ok... This is a little wonky to start, but I'm trying to roll with it. We're bound in the cart. I ask: "Did they leave our clothes?" "Yes, but they took your weapons." "What did they search?" "uhh..." *rolls* "18." "Ok, then they didn't find the dagger hidden in my cloak..." "Nope, they took your cloak." "Why?" "They just did." Now, I could go on about how they then proceeded to sell us as slaves, with no defence for ourselves, instead of execution, for walking in the kings wood. This is a Neutral Good society by the way... And how the person who bought us has collars that can detect when we're trying to remove them, doing osmething illegal, or outside the compound, delivers and electric shock, and has enough cash for 30+ of them. I brought this to him, how he was sort of railroading, and he replies, "Yeah, so? We agreed to it." :eek: WHAT? I made no such agreement, and said so. Apparently he ran this by the two others in the campaign and they were 'fine with it', so majority rules and I just have to roll with it. I ask him if there was a way to escape, he says no. :headexplo ...yeah. Now, I would rather reform this DM if at all possible, instead of drop him (I liked this campaign...). I'm open to suggestions.
Giant_Moth 06-19-06, 01:50 PM	(Dino alert!) Back in my day, there was a thing called a "story", that had nothing to do with Spot checks, Search checks, concealment of daggers, or how outrageous one's Diplomacy score was. Yes, you definitely need a new DM, one that will let you do whatever you want. Better yet... run the game yourself. Though I do agree with the sarcasm here, his DM is a little unreasonable. The best way to make a story go the way YOU(as a dm) is to make the players at least get the impression that they can do something. No one enjoys being powerless and completly unable to controll the consequences.
NeonOne 06-19-06, 01:57 PM	Access some of the great articles written about good DMing, particularly the ones about being flexible, print them out and slip them into your DM's pile of papers when he's not looking. When he discovers and reads them, perhaps he'll get the hint. Better yet, take them with you when you have your off-line chat with him. Tell him you found some great stuff about DMing, stuff you plan on using when you DM, and you thought he might be interested in reading it too. Continue to emphasize DM flexibility in every conversation you have with him. This is called "coaching" in the business world. If he's got an Intelligence over 8, he'll eventually catch on, become a better DM, and you won't lose a friend over a game.
stargate525 06-19-06, 08:16 PM	Some other advice is this guys maybe new to DMing so he's still learning the ropes and trying to explain his story. Nope. He is, scarily, the 'veteran' DM of the group. Back in my day, there was a thing called a "story", that had nothing to do with Spot checks, Search checks, concealment of daggers, or how outrageous one's Diplomacy score was. Yes, you definitely need a new DM, one that will let you do whatever you want. Better yet... run the game yourself. you know what? Then tell your story. But don't pretend that the people listening to your stories have any say in them. The first thing I was planning to do, had I been allowed to escape, would be to try and get them out too. But Mr. High and mighty DM didn't want that... More seriously: Railroads run both ways. If he wants to railroad, get behind and push. Ask him to make roleplaying decisions for you. Ask him to make combat decisions for you. Every. Single. Time. Get the other two players to do it. Have every single action, decision, whatever, decided and done by Mr. Conductor, and hopefully he'll get over himself and back off. Problem is, I probably won't get either of the other two to help me, as there too much of cowards and opinionless to do it.
The_Normal_Anomaly 06-20-06, 10:38 AM	Nope. He is, scarily, the 'veteran' DM of the group. you know what? Then tell your story. But don't pretend that the people listening to your stories have any say in them. The first thing I was planning to do, had I been allowed to escape, would be to try and get them out too. But Mr. High and mighty DM didn't want that... Problem is, I probably won't get either of the other two to help me, as there too much of cowards and opinionless to do it. I feel for you, I had the same problem. Mine was the vet DM of the group too. I actually, on my own, came up with the "Choo Choo" thing too. He didn't have much interest in having me play very much because I always found a flaw to exploit. One case was that an enemy leader was on a log across a chasm that we were in along with his men. I used energy push to get him down to our nicley placed dual weilding dwarven war axes, in an frenzy rage, killing everything, dwarven frenzied beserker (A translated from French homebrew class worse than a normal FB. He memorized the burst DC of most every item, because he could make it without rolling.). The log sprouted railing to save him, so he falls prone. I change to sonic damage and attack the, he said rotting, log. It became a magic rotting log. I fire attack him, he gets an pendant of fore protection. :headexplo He wanted to hint at a medusa coming by saying an empty city had a bunch of random statues. I called it. I become the medusas first victom. Seriously, the "Choo-Choo" can bring his attention to what he is doing. In my time not playing, I would sit and mutter "Choo-Choo" when he railed the players. He had me proof his notes when I wasn't playing, I put "Choo-Choo" near railroading points. He just thougt that he knew what was best and wouldn't change. I wanted to make a medic, like the one from modern (I know, it isn't modern, but still a good healer for keeping everyone alive). We get a rod that brings the dead back to life. Plus worst of all he had a DM-PC... that the "plot" revolved around. :banghead: Well, I suppose it will be up to me to run a game now that he is leaving, and I have examples of what not to do.
Bane 06-20-06, 11:40 AM	v. re·formed, re·form·ing, re·forms v. tr. 1. To improve by alteration, correction of error, or removal of defects; put into a better form or condition. 2. 1. To abolish abuse or malpractice in: reform the government. 2. To put an end to (a wrong). See Synonyms at correct. 3. To cause (a person) to give up harmful or immoral practices; persuade to adopt a better way of life. If you alter his face when you hit it, it could be considered reform. Make sure you hit hard. This reminds me of my first DM. Powerful DMPC, lack of options, things happen 'just because.' Luckily, I started DMing, and stole all of his players, rather than just quitting. It seems you already DM with the same group. If so, why should quitting this one cut you off from everyone else, you're still playing together in the other one. You have no compulsion to stay in a game you don't enjoy. If you leave, he might realize you were serious about not enjoying it, and he might change just so he can get you back.
Darkmatter20 06-20-06, 04:15 PM	I think some of you people are confusing railroading with going above the rules. Now railroading a story might not be very fun for the players, forcing them into a certain set of story or adventure might not be the funniest thing ever. Although some of you are forgetting the golden rule of D&D, and that's the DM is always right. If he choses to change a rule or go above it for the sake of the game, the story or the roleplay, then he is perfectly allowed to do that. It's only if you feel he is abusing his power to completly railroad the adventure or campaign that you should start to complain. But I do think the OP's DM has gone way past the line.. Emphasis mine. Before I say anything I have to say that I am also a DM and a player. Seriously is that piece of rubbish that the DM is always right still hanging around? Let me phrase this as elagently as possible "The DM is not always right". The DM is just another member of the gaming group who has put time and effort into making a game for the other members. This does not grant him/her some kind of Omni potence (sp) or does it grant him some kind of ownership of the gaming group. Sorry if that came across too strong but two of my players also gamed in another group and had to break of them of the habit of the DM is always right. They just accepted whatever I said even when I was wrong or they weren't enjoying it. They never corrected me on rules hell because the previous DM just made up stuff they didn't even know the basics. Another example: If I made a escape artist character who was captured and put into slavery and the DM started saying that I could not escape until it suits his story how is that fun. Not only is my character totally useless in this area since he is not allowed escape but when it is convenient for the DM's story for him to escape I will always know that it was not because of luck or skill but that the DM allowed me to. This is not fun. I think it just boils down to the following: Some DM's think that to run a game they have to come up with a story. They then attempt to move the players into this story. This gives a story and set actions that the players are forced to follow. Other DM's (including myself) make a setting for the players to play in. Each major NPC has their own agenda and rather then forcing the PCs into a set-story the setting itself responds to the players. This gives a story that the players are involved in and are actively creating. EDIT: This reminds me of my first DM. Powerful DMPC, lack of options, things happen 'just because.' Luckily, I started DMing, and stole all of his players, rather than just quitting. It seems you already DM with the same group. If so, why should quitting this one cut you off from everyone else, you're still playing together in the other one. You have no compulsion to stay in a game you don't enjoy. If you leave, he might realize you were serious about not enjoying it, and he might change just so he can get you back. hehe I did this too. Man my first DM was terrible (he's playing in my game now and wants to run one again so hopefully he'll be better this time) and I took the players too. Mostly I was a better DM because I actually owned the DMG and knew basic rules didn't railroad (except at the start) and so on.
draco1119 06-20-06, 07:15 PM	This may be slightly off-topic, but the OP stated that his Listen check was a natural 20, with bonuses making it a 38. Isn't a natural 20 an automatic success? At least, to some degree? Is your character deaf?! WTF?
Bane 06-20-06, 07:26 PM	This may be slightly off-topic, but the OP stated that his Listen check was a natural 20, with bonuses making it a 38. Isn't a natural 20 an automatic success? At least, to some degree? Is your character deaf?! WTF? Not on skill or ability checks, just on saves and attack rolls.
Archangel62 06-20-06, 08:02 PM	(Dino alert!) Back in my day, there was a thing called a "story", that had nothing to do with Spot checks, Search checks, concealment of daggers, or how outrageous one's Diplomacy score was. Yes, you definitely need a new DM, one that will let you do whatever you want. Better yet... run the game yourself. And you didn't even have players back then either, you had to make up imaginary people to play those roles so that you could get what you needed.
Nephlite 06-20-06, 08:21 PM	I need some help. The DM who runs our games when I don't is a mad railroader. For instance, today we went a bit into the woods, and then 'you feel a prick on your neck and you drop unconscious'. :confused: No spot check? Listen? I pointed this out to him. "Alright, make a listen check." I roll, natural 20. With bonuses, it's 38. Him. No roll, no referencing notes, no nothing. "You don't hear them." ok... This is a little wonky to start, but I'm trying to roll with it. Were the enemies higher than 10th level? I mean, it is possible. But weird. We're bound in the cart. I ask: "Did they leave our clothes?" Should have asked if they took your cloak. :D
stargate525 06-20-06, 08:31 PM	Not on skill or ability checks, just on saves and attack rolls. True. And we play that a natural 20 acts as a thirty, so yeah... Were the enemies higher than 10th level? I mean, it is possible. But weird. apparently. Some to think of it, I wasn't given a save vs. the sleeping poison either...
Zombayz1 06-20-06, 10:21 PM	Instead of being a jackass, or ditching the game, do it the good way. Raise all hell. Play a CE rouge/assassin with a ring of invisibility. Assassinate everyone. Including the bartender and hookers. Kill...Kill.... KILL 'EM ALL!!! And call yourself 'Jaska Raatikainen, aka The Sandman'. Whenever you kill someone, say 'It's off to Never Never land for you...'. Weild twin clubs and max out preform(drums). Wear gauntlets, so you have a fistfull of steel. Become undead, because, like any other living dead, you'll never die. Eat the corpses of those you kill. Wear a mastadon hide, too. Use alchemists fire to burn an orfanage.. And to turn youself into an undead creature, use a slipknot. (insert random metal refrence here). I've lost it...
Ashok_Lal 06-20-06, 10:26 PM	Maybe you should stear him towards pre-writen adventures. Thay have useualey got good hooks, monsters,NPC's,plots & most important contingency plans for clever PC's. This will give him exsamples of what you are talking about. DC's, hardness, chalange ratings are all there. Once he has that sussed out he can then do his own stuff. . I'm glad you dont just want to throw in the towl. Best of luck & i hope all works out.
Steidas 06-20-06, 10:49 PM	You don't have to walk away... but surely, I'd find another DM. You don't need to walk, just when he says if you're going to play, say "Umm, gee, I dunno..." Worked for me.
Bane 06-20-06, 11:24 PM	Instead of being a jackass, or ditching the game, do it the good way. Raise all hell. Play a CE rouge/assassin with a ring of invisibility. Assassinate everyone. Including the bartender and hookers. Kill...Kill.... KILL 'EM ALL!!! And call yourself 'Jaska Raatikainen, aka The Sandman'. Whenever you kill someone, say 'It's off to Never Never land for you...'. Weild twin clubs and max out preform(drums). Wear gauntlets, so you have a fistfull of steel. Become undead, because, like any other living dead, you'll never die. Eat the corpses of those you kill. Wear a mastadon hide, too. Use alchemists fire to burn an orfanage.. And to turn youself into an undead creature, use a slipknot. (insert random metal refrence here). I've lost it... Emphasis to denote contradiction.
Zombayz1 06-21-06, 12:19 PM	Emphasis to denote contradiction. Belive me, you can raise all hell without being a jackass. I've done it. Got expelled for it once (on the last day of school to boot!!).
draco1119 06-21-06, 01:10 PM	That takes some doing! :bow:
Cornbread 06-21-06, 01:39 PM	(Dino alert!) Back in my day, there was a thing called a "story", that had nothing to do with Spot checks, Search checks, concealment of daggers, or how outrageous one's Diplomacy score was. Yes, you definitely need a new DM, one that will let you do whatever you want. Better yet... run the game yourself. And since those days, the community has grown up and realised that D&D is a structured game with rules that should be followed so that players can make reasonable, informed decisions while traversing your story, and that is decidedly not a story where the players are just cameras watching the show, but instead are undirected actors that get to play a part. If your story involves breaking all of the rules to force people to play along, you need a better story.
Damior 06-21-06, 02:10 PM	in this case, 'reform' does not equal 'maul with expensive 30$ book'. I am so siging that. When I railroad my players (shh dont tell them) I at least let them think I'm giving them a say in what happens. I usually roll all dice in secret, so I can adjust them as needed. I dont do it often, but when I do I get less of a fuss from the player. With this DM on the other hand, I say you catch him in as many contradictions as possible. This will do either of two things. 1. Annoy the hell out of him. He will eventually lose his temper and quit. Thats when you steal his players and start your own game. 2.He will realize that you are there to have fun too, and want a say in what happens
stargate525 06-21-06, 02:16 PM	I am so siging that. When I railroad my players (shh dont tell them) I at least let them think I'm giving them a say in what happens. I usually roll all dice in secret, so I can adjust them as needed. I dont do it often, but when I do I get less of a fuss from the player. With this DM on the other hand, I say you catch him in as many contradictions as possible. This will do either of two things. 1. Annoy the hell out of him. He will eventually lose his temper and quit. Thats when you steal his players and start your own game. 2.He will realize that you are there to have fun too, and want a say in what happens woo! I've been sigged!
draco1119 06-21-06, 03:33 PM	in this case, 'reform' does not equal 'maul with expensive 30$ book'. I've got 2. I'll send you one if you actually do it! :P
Grand Theft Otto 06-21-06, 03:51 PM	Hand him the character sheet, and tell him to have your character do exactly what he wants, since your actions are inconsequential. Then get a new DM. Unfortunately, based on the standard advice on the "whats a dm to do" board, your next DM is likely going to be just as bad. The rules are the only thing separating D&D from "guns" we played as a kid. Where you have a bunch of spazzes running around yelling "Bang" at one another. When you have one kid unilaterally saying who got hit and who didnt, it means its time to go play in someone else's yard. Run your own game is my advice. I got fed up with cheating DM's a long time ago. It was lame in the 80's, its doubly lame now that the game should have grown more sophisticated. This crappy method of DM'ing is particularly common in older players, which is why I almost invariably hate just about anyone labeling themselves a grognard.
stargate525 06-21-06, 05:21 PM	I've got 2. I'll send you one if you actually do it! :P Are you being serious? If so I'll PM you my adress.
draco1119 06-21-06, 10:12 PM	Are you being serious? If so I'll PM you my adress. I want pictures of the aftermath, but yeah, I'll happily send you one for a laugh like that. Edit: um, I could be wrong, but I think I just violated the CoC by encouraging someone else to engage in an illegal activity (assault). So, I guess I'm going to have to say no. :weep:
AGuardian76 06-22-06, 02:28 AM	Here is my suggestion of what you could do. Keep in mind that he might not like it when you tell him you do like his DM-style. People don't like when their gaults are made visible to the whole world. :) So be sure you also tell him what you like about the game But you do need to tell him how you feel. This game is supposed to be fun for all involved (DM and players alike). You made it clear you do not want to leave the game. So don't. Stick with it Tell him you feel like it does not matter what you do, what role you make but you just cant influence the story. Ask him how he would feel if he was in a game where he felt like he might just as well hand in his dice. And let him think about it, don't expect him to change overnight. you want to get him to think about the kind of game he wants to play. The best change is a change that come from within the person, not one that is imposed from the outside. I hope this helps some.
Gnomes_are_Monsters 06-22-06, 03:21 AM	As other posters have indicated go against him; I had a DM who railroaded alot, at the end of an adventure where we had stolen a powerful artifact he had a great wyrm red dragon swoop down and demand the item, we were lvl 5-6. The dragon said give me the item or i will kill one of you, i was fed up with his railroading so i said; "Sure kill me". The DM trew a fit that i was being unfair etc. but in the end we as a group worked out another way to fix the problem of having such an artifact. Step 1; Notice Railroading Step 2; Pull the Emergency break Step 3; Surive the DM-fit Step 4; Discuss and solve the problem
snakefing 06-23-06, 06:48 PM	I need some help. The DM who runs our games when I don't is a mad railroader. For instance, today we went a bit into the woods, and then 'you feel a prick on your neck and you drop unconscious'. ... I brought this to him, how he was sort of railroading, and he replies, "Yeah, so? We agreed to it." I made no such agreement, and said so. Apparently he ran this by the two others in the campaign and they were 'fine with it', so majority rules and I just have to roll with it. I ask him if there was a way to escape, he says no. Well, evidently he ran this by the other players. First, you need find out just what it was that they heard and agreed to. Maybe, "Hey guys, I want to run a campaign where your characters are slaves and you have to work your way up to earn your freedom." Or any of a hundred other things. Find out, don't assume. Also don't assume that the rest of the campaign will be just like this - it could have only been the setup that was railroaded. Maybe he wants to run a campaign with a particular kind of theme - slaves earning their freedom, or organizing a slave revolt, or whatever. There's worse things than playing a character who starts out in adversity. It may be a chance to develop a different kind of hero. Since he didn't talk with you about this before hand, you may need to make a new character that fits in better. Ask him if he'll allow your original character to be "killed while escaping" and bring in your new one as another slave, if that's what it takes. If it looks like he's hell bent on railroading a particular story, you'll have to decide whether you can play within the game he's planning, or not. If not, maybe there is a way to compromise, so he can run a campaign he'll enjoy running, and you can still have more input into the story line. You can't make him run a campaign he won't enjoy running. But you might be able to point out ways he can run that campaign without being so heavy-handed about the railroading. Try to suggest ways that your characters can have a little more freedom within the scope of what he's got in mind. But before you can do that, you've got to find out what he's got in mind. Not necessarily details or GM secrets, but at least the broad picture - where he sees your characters going from here. There's no guarantee this will work. Maybe he really, really wants to run a particular story. If so, as someone else said, get on the train and enjoy the ride. Even this can be fun, if you are willing to let go and express your character's freedom in other ways. Or, if that doesn't sound like any fun to you, just pass on it. Under no circumstances should you try to disrupt his game. That way, no one has any fun - not you, not him, and especially not the other players. And I can't think of a faster way to ruin a friendship. Friends don't mess with each others' games. -snake
danielinthewolvesden 06-24-06, 01:29 AM	I wonder about one thing- was this at the very very start of a campaign, or along about in the middle? Becuase, if it is the start of a new campaign, then it is time to sit back and watch the scenery and listen to the 'clicketly clack".
stargate525 06-24-06, 01:54 AM	I wonder about one thing- was this at the very very start of a campaign, or along about in the middle? Becuase, if it is the start of a new campaign, then it is time to sit back and watch the scenery and listen to the 'clicketly clack". second session in what promises to be a rather lengthy campaign.
Psychoticpsymon 06-24-06, 11:56 AM	Just leave, and save yourself the trouble. Or, just light his notes on fire. Tell him his railroad derailed and exploded in a firey holocaust. Then throw your sheet on it and run away. Fast. Don't look back. And read the front page of the paper the next day. :shocked:
danielinthewolvesden 06-25-06, 12:31 AM	second session in what promises to be a rather lengthy campaign. Hmm, then it could be part of the campaign set up. Let it go this once, don't fight it. However, just let him know, there is a better way of doing this ...have the campaign start as: you all been sold as slaves, with no defence for ourselves, instead of execution, for walking in the kings wood. And how the person who bought us has collars that can detect when we're trying to remove them, doing osmething illegal, or outside the compound, delivers and electric shock, and has enough cash for 30+ of them." It's the hook as to why you're all adventuring together. Otherwise, it's a silly railroad. Many DM dream of the camapign where the PC are all stripped and imprsioned- but there is no way of doing this in an on-going camapign without MASSIVE railroading and resentful players. It's fine to start the campaign with the PC's in that situation, however. He just didn't know that, so direct him to this thread, and now he'll know. And the rest of you DMs- same to you. Never, ever, ever try to do this crud in the middle of an ongoing camapign. If you just have to have an "escaped slave" campaign, start the campaign like that.
draco1119 06-25-06, 03:23 AM	However, just let him know, there is a better way of doing this ...have the campaign start as: you all been sold as slaves, with no defence for ourselves, instead of execution, for walking in the kings wood. And how the person who bought us has collars that can detect when we're trying to remove them, doing osmething illegal, or outside the compound, delivers and electric shock, and has enough cash for 30+ of them." It's the hook as to why you're all adventuring together. Otherwise, it's a silly railroad. Many DM dream of the camapign where the PC are all stripped and imprsioned- but there is no way of doing this in an on-going camapign without MASSIVE railroading and resentful players. It's fine to start the campaign with the PC's in that situation, however. He just didn't know that, so direct him to this thread, and now he'll know. And the rest of you DMs- same to you. Never, ever, ever try to do this crud in the middle of an ongoing camapign. If you just have to have an "escaped slave" campaign, start the campaign like that. That's what my (new) DM did. She's new to me as a DM, not new in general. Makes me happy. :)
Myrf 06-25-06, 09:39 AM	in this case, 'reform' does not equal 'maul with expensive 30$ book'. Sigged X2
Morrowner 06-26-06, 02:10 AM	You know, the DM should have said to the group: "I've got this really great idea for a campaign. It does require you to be a slave and that is how you will start out. Its either starting you out as a slave or going to ridiculous measures to capture you by the book or I could just railroad you into it without telling you why. But this way is easier." But no, he had to leave somebody out of the loop. That is what I'd be the most angry about. Now about the "story" thing, the players come to play, not hear you live read a novel with intermittent and meaningless dice rolling. If the players don't have a say about basic things in the world then you're not gaming.
was_fired 06-26-06, 04:32 AM	Dungeon and Dragons is a game of lets pretend with rules. If your DM decides the throw the rules out, and they don't run an enjoyable game you might as well remind them of this fact. Remember when you were a little kid and you said you shot the other little kid with your "gun". Then he said you missed him because he had a force shield up. Do that. DM: "Your characters fall unconsious before the dragon since they are so overcome by fright." Paladin: "No, I'm a paladin... I'm imune to fear." DM: "Well your scared anyways so you still lose consciousness." Paladin: "Not even a saving throw? This is like when the bandits snuck up on us without allowing us a spot check. Or that time the wizard teleported us to his tower and took that artifact from us just because. Or that..." DM: "Anyways you lose consciousness and wake up..." Paladin: "No, I don't lose consciousness. I stand before the dragon, raise my sword, and cut him in two. Then a wake my companions, heal them, and teleport everyone to the city of..." DM: "What the hell is your problem? You passed out get over it." Paladin: "No, you threw out the rules. So we are playing a game of lets pretend now. So I'm pretending that I cut the dragon in two and teleported everyone to the city." Warning: The ignore the DM method will likely result in your being booted from the group and not being on speaking terms with your former DM for a week. Do not use the ignore your DM method without first consulting your fellow players and confirming that everyone is annoyed with his or her DMing style. The ignoring your DM method is not for everyone. Try the ignoring your DM method today.
Inigo_Montoya 06-26-06, 04:47 AM	Problem is if I walk, so do my players for when I DM. They're my friends, and again, reform attempts before walking. Annoying the hell out of him isn't the way to do it.Then stop being so obsessed with the rules and play along until it actually is worth fighting for.
Exquisite_Flopilidopilies 06-26-06, 07:36 PM	Wow, there's a lot of hostility. I myself am really sympathetic with "railroading" DMs, because a campaign or story arc with a lot of direction can be really fun, and striking the balance between railroading and having everyone just sit around in a tavern until they hear about a new dungeon to clear can be kind of fine. Don't react with indignance or as if your "rights" have been violated. First, you need to ask yourself what it is you really want out of the game. Namely, what would you have liked to have happen when you got shot in the neck? You made your Listen check, screamed "Bandits!" and... what? Found a few King's Guards and killed them? And then what? Spent the rest of the time in "self-directed heaven" wandering around until you can kill a giant forest rat or something? You need to have a solid handle on what exactly you want as an experience before you start asking the DM to change things; and you need to express this in a positive way (not positive in a touchy-feely way, just positive in the sense that you are explaining how you would like things to work rather than just complaining about how they do work). Criticizing someone's DMing style is criticizing their writing or their kid: they will react very emotionally. Be sympathetic to the challenge of providing you with something interesting to do while balancing the various demands of what that means. That said, it's fair to have input about the kind of game you'd like to play, and so many of these player-DM problems seem to really stem from everyone's inability to communicate effectively and without offense about what exactly they'd like to spend time doing. If you basically want to play a kind of fantasy video game with paper (I love this analogy, I've been using it a lot lately) and you just need someone to run the monsters and do the bookkeeping, then you should establish that that's what you want to do. If you're open to following along with someone else's story arc, but want to feel more like you're in control of at least your own actions and reactions, suggest to the DM some ways of making this happen. But if you say you want to play someone else's original adventures but you also want to abort them because of the roll of the dice or you don't like the immediate taste of what's happening to your character, then I'm not sure you'll easily find DMs you like. Another approach would be to trade off DMing a bit, and demonstrate by action more how you would like things to go.
Bane 06-26-06, 08:15 PM	When I write or DM, I want feedback. How the hell am I supposed to know something's bad if no one tells me? I'm obviously biased as the creator of the writing/campaign, I need someone else to tell me what they think is good, and what they think sucks. Saying 'Don't criticize' is the worst advice you can give, because then nothing will change.* *Alright, fine. There's plenty of worse advice, but they're all felonies. That doesn't count.
Tesler9 06-27-06, 08:12 AM	I am sure it is a question of style. While not dm'ing at the moment I appreciate those players who do not try and run teh game themselves by asking for DC's and how things happened that their character would not know. Those that do just seem to end up resenting the DM when thigns do not go as they wish. I like a greater story arc from the DM rather than just lining stats up but I think this is just taste. If you dont like it dont play or realise that their is comprimise so we can all play together. I do agree that you should discuss with the DM
Suzaku455 06-27-06, 09:03 AM	I am sure it is a question of style. While not dm'ing at the moment I appreciate those players who do not try and run teh game themselves by asking for DC's and how things happened that their character would not know. Those that do just seem to end up resenting the DM when thigns do not go as they wish. I like a greater story arc from the DM rather than just lining stats up but I think this is just taste. If you dont like it dont play or realise that their is comprimise so we can all play together. I do agree that you should discuss with the DM Then stop having dc that are 40+ for group that is lvl 4, or give no saving throws for stuff like knockout posion or other. Also then there the impossible to capture fleeing minion, I had a DM who had a durgear (sp?) use their enlarge person. When they start running away I started chasing one with my monk, the dm said I couldn't catch up to him because my monk movement was 40 also because enlarge person doubles their movement speed. I pointed out enlarge person does not allow double movement speed, he house rules that enlarge person movement speed is double because of their enlarge stride.
BeginnerDM 06-27-06, 09:59 AM	I'm a new DM and I'm certainly guilty of Railroading at times I'm sure of it. But thats because I'm new, and I would never railroad unless it was part of the story line. From what I see what your DM did was something he wanted "The next adventure takes place with the PC's starting off being captured" While I admit not allowing rolls etc is awfuly annoying to the players, I'd say roll with it. Now if your with a bunch of friends and your playing, and you don't like your DM's style, then I say you take on the Mantle of DM and show him how its done. Maybe he'll take you as inspriation to change his own ways. Personally my favorite DM always Railroaded us, I mean his adventures always had a clear cut "all doors lead to the adventure I planned" but once you were on the adventure it could always be done anyway we wanted. And because of that all his adventures tied into a great big huge story arc that was just awesome. Heck I'd be LUCKY if I could find a DM that Railroaded now... I'm stuck with the job which I admit I don't like at this point.
Fun_Elemental 06-29-06, 02:47 AM	Every DM that wants to 'tell a specific story' needs to learn the meaning of the phrase "All roads lead to Rome." All paths or activities lead to the center of things. If he wants you go to location X, he can try, try, try agian. No player is going to get upset if the DM has made up his mind that the story is going to advance once you end up as a slave in a far away land. The player gets upset when you micro-manage them into it with sloppy heavy-handedness. Have a band of slavers that are a bit over the partys EL ambush them. You have a good chance to enslave them. If the party wins the day, oh well. Have someone attempt to kidnap one of the party members and sell them into slavery. Failed at that too? Have the local lord get upset about sudden surge of slaver activity in the local area and hire you to get even. Did the players wipe out the slavers hideout agianst ALL odds? Defeat them to a man? Not a problem, now have them approached by someone from a far off land who has heard of their exploits agianst slavers. Have him convince them to help him free his sister who was stolen away by slavers. Convince them sail to this far off land, and get attacked by pirates (who sell their prisoners as slaves), have them making sailing checks during storms lest their ship goes down and have them wash up unconcious on a beach next to a slaver's den. Should they resist it all, get them to come up with the idea of becoming slaves to sneak into the slave camps. Did they get too much xps while resisting your plot line? Allow me to direct you to level draining monsters. Play it just like before. Keep hitting them with tough encounters where you fully intened to suck xps out of them. Don't get sloppy and obvious with it, just keep it up until you have an appropriate ammount of permanate level drain across the party. If your doing it right, they won't get mad, they will just take it as a tough part of the campaign where the monsters are playing for keeps. Worst comes to worse, just tell them they have too much XPs, and negotiate something for them to dump xps into. Bottom line is that the DM is the house. The players can get a lucky streak, but if you play long enough, the house comes out exactly where it wants to be.
Suzaku455 06-29-06, 02:53 AM	Every DM that wants to 'tell a specific story' needs to learn the meaning of the phrase "All roads lead to Rome." All paths or activities lead to the center of things. If he wants you go to location X, he can try, try, try agian. No player is going to get upset if the DM has made up his mind that the story is going to advance once you end up as a slave in a far away land. The player gets upset when you micro-manage them into it with sloppy heavy-handedness. Have a band of slavers that are a bit over the partys EL ambush them. You have a good chance to enslave them. If the party wins the day, oh well. Have someone attempt to kidnap one of the party members and sell them into slavery. Failed at that too? Have the local lord get upset about sudden surge of slaver activity in the local area and hire you to get even. Did the players wipe out the slavers hideout agianst ALL odds? Defeat them to a man? Not a problem, now have them approached by someone from a far off land who has heard of their exploits agianst slavers. Have him convince them to help him free his sister who was stolen away by slavers. Convince them sail to this far off land, and get attacked by pirates (who sell their prisoners as slaves), have them making sailing checks during storms lest their ship goes down and have them wash up unconcious on a beach next to a slaver's den. Should they resist it all, get them to come up with the idea of becoming slaves to sneak into the slave camps. Did they get too much xps while resisting your plot line? Allow me to direct you to level draining monsters. Play it just like before. Keep hitting them with tough encounters where you fully intened to suck xps out of them. Don't get sloppy and obvious with it, just keep it up until you have an appropriate ammount of permanate level drain across the party. If your doing it right, they won't get mad, they will just take it as a tough part of the campaign where the monsters are playing for keeps. Worst comes to worse, just tell them they have too much XPs, and negotiate something for them to dump xps into. Bottom line is that the DM is the house. The players can get a lucky streak, but if you play long enough, the house comes out exactly where it wants to be. Except the players will goto a different house
Comus 06-29-06, 02:01 PM	Every DM that wants to 'tell a specific story' needs to learn the meaning of the phrase "All roads lead to Rome." All paths or activities lead to the center of things. If he wants you go to location X, he can try, try, try agian. No player is going to get upset if the DM has made up his mind that the story is going to advance once you end up as a slave in a far away land. The player gets upset when you micro-manage them into it with sloppy heavy-handedness. Have a band of slavers that are a bit over the partys EL ambush them. You have a good chance to enslave them. If the party wins the day, oh well. Have someone attempt to kidnap one of the party members and sell them into slavery. Failed at that too? Have the local lord get upset about sudden surge of slaver activity in the local area and hire you to get even. Did the players wipe out the slavers hideout agianst ALL odds? Defeat them to a man? Not a problem, now have them approached by someone from a far off land who has heard of their exploits agianst slavers. Have him convince them to help him free his sister who was stolen away by slavers. Convince them sail to this far off land, and get attacked by pirates (who sell their prisoners as slaves), have them making sailing checks during storms lest their ship goes down and have them wash up unconcious on a beach next to a slaver's den. Should they resist it all, get them to come up with the idea of becoming slaves to sneak into the slave camps. Did they get too much xps while resisting your plot line? Allow me to direct you to level draining monsters. Play it just like before. Keep hitting them with tough encounters where you fully intened to suck xps out of them. Don't get sloppy and obvious with it, just keep it up until you have an appropriate ammount of permanate level drain across the party. If your doing it right, they won't get mad, they will just take it as a tough part of the campaign where the monsters are playing for keeps. Worst comes to worse, just tell them they have too much XPs, and negotiate something for them to dump xps into. Bottom line is that the DM is the house. The players can get a lucky streak, but if you play long enough, the house comes out exactly where it wants to be. I have to agree with most of this. If the players won't bite onto a plot hook, there's no reason why the DM can't keep it on the side to reintoduce later. There are some pretty good examples there of other ways to get the players interested in the slavers in that post, too. The most important thing is that the players should always have the opportunity to play, not just to be characters in a play. That said, the thing about artifically lowering character levels is silly. One can always increase the level of the enemies, instead, with the added benefit of not seeming like an arse by level-draining or forcing them to spend XP. One final thing, though - if the players really, really don't like a plot string, it's the DMs duty to drop it. The game is supposed to be fun for everyone, not just fun for the DM. Just because he's got all the power doesn't mean he can't be flexible.
Fun_Elemental 06-29-06, 04:36 PM	Well sometimes you just need them to be lower level. Access to some types of spells will just break some adventures beyond repair. In some settings, if your players get too high level before the plot is done, the game is over. High level PCs running around Eberron won't work. Part of the charm of the setting is the lack of requirements for every backwater mayor of a town of 6 people being at least 20th level, and personally knowing a minimum of three 40th level cheese-lords of munchkinism. Players who absolutly refuse to make any reasonable attempt to follow the plot-line are as bad as a heavy handed rail-roading DM. If all they want to do is run around racking up xp points like its their score in a video game, then they need to just sit by themselves in a corner with the PHB, MM, and some dice and leave everyone else alone.