Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UltimateReality 11-24-04, 09:18 PM	Yeah, so in my group we happen to have one player who's a big kender fan. :rolleyes: This is the second kender he's made, although the DM ruled that mechanically it's a halfling rogue and he simply roleplays it like a kender. He rolled insane stats right in front of the DM (a few 17s, an 18, and I think a 12 and 13/14). His final Dex is a 28. :weep: The character is 10th level. Now, I'm okay with kender, mostly. I think the concept is perhaps a bit overdone (i.e., curious vs. stupidly suicidal), but I have serious problems with the stealing-from-the-party bit. The kender PC is afflicted with kelptomania, and the DM will roll randomly to see what he takes off of who. I happen to be a 13th level wizard. And yes, I do plan on picking up Eschew Materials and probably Spell Mastery at 15th as well, however I fear I may not have that long. So in the meantime, I'm looking for two things from you wise, intelligent board-surfers: 1. Ways to catch the little bugger and make him pay if he does anything. His saves are 7/17/7 and of course he has improved evasion. And I will have no spellbook and/or material components. About the only thing I can think of is wait til he's sleeping and do something nasty -- a nice little Bestow curse might be good. (Oh, he put max ranks in Escape Artist too, and his AC is 26...His Hide and Move Silently totals are 34-36.) The other option that comes to mind is to take ranks in Bluff (he has NO Sense Motive other than his Wisdom mod of +3) to suggest actions to the kender that would be "fun"...like, say, opening and reading that big fat book over there that's labelled "The Necronomicon". :lightbulb Or taking a look at this shiny little red bead I just made from magic. :mage: 2. A way to convince my DM that allowing kender PCs is BAD, WRONG, EVIL, and NASTY. I seriously can't believe that he's allowing this again. While I don't really mind if the kender is suicidal, the kleptomania I have a real issue with. Because let's face it -- if you were a caster and some little dude took your spell component pouch, you wouldn't think it was very funny. Seeing as it's not likely you'd notice it was gone til you needed it, I think it's safe to say you'd be ******. In fact you would hunt the little bugger down and make him hurt. It's not a joke, it seriously puts the party in danger. I just can't believe my DM would do this...again! We've had kleptomaniacal kenders before. They ended up in jail, however we're in the middle of a dungeon (really tower) right now, so no jail for him. :banghead: :help:
Dreaming_in_the_void 11-24-04, 09:28 PM	I played a wizard who reversed the spell "Shocking Grasp". It was a second level spell called "Grasping Shock" and would remain "charged up" for 1hr/lev. Instead of having to hit somebody to deliver damage, the damage was delivered when they hit/touched you. Feel free to adopt the spell for your wizard if your DM will allow it. Helps with an overly-curious thief in the party. Not such a good idea to leave up when the party goes wenching/(insert the opposite gender verb for wenching here). And/or get the party cleric to come up with a clever glyph of warding for you.
Callista 11-24-04, 09:47 PM	Kender are curious, but they won't deliberately try something painful twice. Cast something nasty on your spell component pouch, so the first time Kender tries to pick it, he gets zapped. He'll learn. Dealing with kender is like dealing with 3 year olds... sometimes they have to be slapped on the hand before they'll understand they can't touch the stove.
Belladonna5012 11-24-04, 10:38 PM	I would have to agree with those who say to just put a trap spell on your book. At your level, you should have access to Fire Trap. That should do the trick. ~Belladonna Knight
krichaiushii 11-24-04, 11:32 PM	How do the rest of the players feel about the thieving kender? If they don't like it, talk as a group to the DM and/or the offending player about the follies of interparty conflict (like theft from PCs). Perhaps peer pressure can get the DM to end the foolishness. Magically alarm your favored items. When you get the feat Spell Mastery, include Locate Object and perhaps Scry in the spell choices. Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound might work, as well. Enough ranks in Sense Motive should let you have a hunch that something is up, like you are being cased by the kender or have been targetted by him. Keep a spare spell component bag hidden in an awkward location, and multiple scrolls, as well. Perhaps a PC quirk is to constantly inventory important belongings. Like my habit of patting my wallet every 2-3 minutes while walking in a crowd or whenever jostled by a stranger. Just to be safe. This hopefully gives you enough warning to find him and deal with the problem before its a problem. Since there is no jail, leave him for dead or use him as bribery with dungeon denizens. Or be subtle and include him in area of effect spells - if he gets a little damaged, tell him you thought his reflexes would save him, and besides, the monsters all died. If you have Heighten Spell or other methods of increasing enchantments, use Heightened Suggestion (in combination with a Mind Fog or Bestow Curse (-6 to Wisdom) if possible) to recommend definitely suicidal actions in the name of curiousity. If you are nongood in alignment, call up a planar ally of the nasty sort and offer up the kender's soul in exchange (barghests are good for this, as are balors). Or kill him outright with whatever spells you have available. Flesh to Stone followed by Stone Shape followed by Stone to Flesh is always nice. Coup de grace in the sleep following a Hold Person spell works too. As you might imagine, I don't much care for interparty conflict - like theft from party members. Removing a mission essential piece of equipment for any reason jeapordizes the group as a whole, and should be punished accordingly. I favor death - quick if feeling merciful - to those who would so readily betray their comrades' trust by stealing their means of survival (occasional cash or gems is another matter, entirely).
Gurv 11-25-04, 01:21 AM	Get a bag of devouring. Halfings are not good at grappling, and it'll make any surviver very wary of wizard's pouches from then on.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-25-04, 03:18 AM	Two things should be mentioned here; 1) The DM does not allow evil. 2) While curiouse a Kender will NOT do anything that will potentially hurt anyone in the party. Also you are wizard, your spell book should be trappped already. Further more kenders are attracted to shinny and interesting objects, like say a spell component pouch, or perhaps a polished shoe. You could always just put some enexpensive shinnies on yourself to serve as bate for the kender. Or you always just ask the kender if they have seen your belongings, They general are polite and can not help themselves, but they are very "helpful" in helping party members find missing items. And lastly if the player really has his haert set on a kender and can play it with out being disruptive then why not? (being disruptive on the other hand does have some nasty consequences)
General Dorsey 11-25-04, 03:22 AM	You have just encountered the reason I disallow kender as a PC race. It is too often used as an excuse by people to steal from the party. Here's how I would handle it: I would look the little bastard right in the eyes and let him know that if anything of mine comes up missing he will end up wandering around Hades unarmed. Then, when it happens, I'd transport him there myself and sell his sorry little butt to the first being who showed up. It may be evil, but that's how much I really despise kender being played by most people. I would also let the DM know that I am looking for another group. I don't play with kender or drow.
Twoswords 11-25-04, 04:59 AM	Ways to catch the little bugger Magic Alarm on everything you own. Magic Mouth on everything you own. First time tell him to keep his filthy paws off. Second time give him the final warning. Then switch all alarm spells to harmful ones. After all, you warned him. Or hypnotize him to cure his kleptomania..=)
Naeron 11-25-04, 06:30 AM	There is absolutelu no way that the Kender player or DM can justify that other people do not react to the Kender just as they would any other theif. If there is some edict that you have to respect the Kenders inability to comprehend property ownership there should be a similar edict that the Kender has to respect your philosophy that thieves get strung up. Use Magic Mouth and trapped items to catch him, give him a stern warning then a final warning then kill him. A Thief is a Thief and someone who steals from his friends is the lowest of the low. A Good person can perform such an act because they have warned them of the punishment of their crime. Spells that target Fort or Will saves are obviously the best as would be casting Bulls Strength, Greater Magic Weapon and using CDG with a heavy pick in two hands (thats an automatic 4d6+20 so a minimum DC 34 Fort Save). Until that happens just cast no beneficial spells on the Kender and ignore his location when targetting spells on the enemy.
Kheldren 11-25-04, 07:28 AM	IIRC (many years since I read the DL books) Kender don't believe in property ownership - so yes, he will steal from the party if he needs something or it looks pretty (tarnish your coins so they are not shiny) but he should not be greedy - and will expect you to help yourself to his things if you need them. If he tries to play this differently then report him to the authorities for theft. This should quickly mean that the first place anyone loks for something is witht he kender - even if they should have their own copy - why use yours when you can use his? Also, unless the party is good he will be the best party member to use as quartermaster (as he forgets to pay) until he gives up. He may quickly find that having to play it so that you 'steal' stuff right back and he can't complain is boring and will play something else. Other things - why is he in the party? No matter what your alignment unless you have an excellent reason to trust him, all characters are entitled to take some action when they find someone stealing from them. Also you know not to use reflex saves on him - so go for fortitude/will saves (or touch attacks if you think you can hit him). "Oh look, I polymorphed the thief I caught stealing into a frog, fair enough - but has anyone seen our halfling scout?" - there is no reason for you to even recognise him if it's dark. If you are on a major "save the world" mission finding someone in the party stealing from you probably equals a traitor...
Callista 11-25-04, 07:58 AM	I can get Kender, but what's wrong with Drow? You play one, and you have an excuse to be absolutely, coldly, deliciously evil... :) Now, CG drow rangers wielding two scimitars? That I can see. :P
Thorak 11-25-04, 08:19 AM	It's not stealing. It's picking up to look at without asking for permission first. If he's playing Kender right, then he'll have no problems walking in front of you while obviously poking at whatever he just lifted. Nor will he complain or refuse if you ask for it back. And if you explain why certain items are verboten ("See this pouch? I need the stuff in here to make the enemies explode, so I'll let you take a look at camp, but don't take it from me while we're walking around, or I may not be able to make them explode when they grab you"), he shouldn't have an issue. Kender are like three year olds. If you don't want them taking your wallet and hiding the cards everywhere, give them a pretty rock, or something else useless. The key is keeping them distracted, and not trying to hide things from them (that drives their curiosity nuts; if you say they can't look at it, they're going to try and steal it.) Let them look at your spell components when camping one night, while keeping an eagle eye on them, and they shouldn't be stealing the pouch any more; their curiosity about what's in it has been satisfied. A properly played Kender isn't annoying, it's amusing. Especially if the party isn't antagonistic to the player just because of the race he chose. If your character is a paranoid, overreacting nutjob who wants to string up anyone who touches his stuff without permission, fine. But I'm still going to say your character has more issues than the Kender does. Kender don't steal. Stealing implies a desire to take for benefit. Kender "borrow", to either use and return, or to look at because they're curious; there's no intent to keep the item. They can't even concieve of what keeping an item would be.
Lord_Anthrax 11-25-04, 08:48 AM	Failing all that tedious explaining, if the little turd keeps swiping your stuff(I don't care if they call it borrowing, it's stealing), wait until he's asleep and send him somewhere interesting via Plane Shift(since an unconscious character is considered a willing subject), such as the Astral Plane(if you don't want to kill him outright)or the Elemental Plane of Water(if you do).
Falkus 11-25-04, 08:58 AM	Failing all that tedious explaining, if the little turd keeps swiping your stuff(I don't care if they call it borrowing, it's stealing), Somebody's got issues. Technically speaking, it's only stealing if they don't give it back. All you've got to do is ask the Kender, and he'll give whatever he took back.
thugpoetry 11-25-04, 09:10 AM	I love this forum. Some of you are absolutely hilarious with all the puffing and posturing. :rolleyes:
Painwraith 11-25-04, 09:15 AM	some of you should listen to yourselves.... Most people dont like having stuff nicked from them, even from NPC's! Kender as a few others have said are naturally curious, so just keep some interesting puzzle boxes on you, like the one from the Hellraiser movie, they keep them occupied and out of your pouches. However you are over looking several points with kender, they are the most loyal companions you can have, they always share (even if you do sometimes have to ask for it back) they are dependable in battle and only boost things on the whole when travelling or resting, many are far too busy looking at all the interesting things during combat. They also make fantastic trap disarmers, jailbreakers and are small enough to fit through tiny holes and dont forget most people are too busy keeping an eye on the kender than looking at you... Dont forget they also get on great with gully dwarves... Use them, dont abuse them
Naeron 11-25-04, 09:48 AM	Kender don't steal. Stealing implies a desire to take for benefit. Kender "borrow", to either use and return, or to look at because they're curious; there's no intent to keep the item. They can't even concieve of what keeping an item would be. They do steal, taking something without the owners permission is stealing. The fact that a kender may not want to understand the concept of property ownership is irrelevant to the fact that other people do understand it and apply it. If the Kender can't learn to respect other people's beliefs then it has no right to expect them to respect its belief that it shouldn't be beaten to death with a club. Just because a PC believes its Ok to commit crimes doesn't make it true and Kender are not like 3 year olds, they are adults capable of making moral choices (because they have alignments) and should be treated as such. The party wouldn't accept such behaviour from another race so why should they accept it from a Kender, once its been told how things are then carrying on stealing just means that the Kender refuses to respect their friends views on the matter. Its also an alignment matter because D&D alignments are not subjective, as soon as the Kenders "borrowing" harms an innocent it is committing evil acts and because it is never "borrowing" from need it is committing neutral acts at best.
DM_Erik 11-25-04, 10:06 AM	Take example on TAsslehoff Burfoot and Raistlin MAjere from Dragonlance Chronicles... TAss was a very good friend of Raistlin(before he turned Evil) but he never steal anything from him, especially not material component.. Tell him that if he touches anything that you own, you will turn him into a TOad. Even if the idea of being turn into a Toad appeals to him, he shouldn't be stupid enough to do it... If yes, then polymorph him into one...
eshadowe 11-25-04, 11:31 AM	I had a character Kender that kept doing this too me I was playing a Lizardman/druid (with crappy physical stats, all mental/social) that was over protective of his books (he treated books like other players do magic items, and yes i would 'chose' a spell book as a treasure item on the wizards). So what did i do, I threatened to eat him if he touched my books. Weopons, treasure, food was ok. Of course my lizardman was joking (he would have been mad if the kender touched them, but not eaten him) but who wants to tempt the guy with the huge mouth full of teath??? Same could go with a dwarf threatening with 'dwarvish heritage' items....ect. Just set the boundries so he knows what is off limits If that doesn't works, point out to the kender the DM-pc's shiny new magic item and how pretty it is. Kender will steal it and there will be no more kender.
Falkus 11-25-04, 11:42 AM	Its also an alignment matter because D&D alignments are not subjective, as soon as the Kenders "borrowing" harms an innocent it is committing evil acts and because it is never "borrowing" from need it is committing neutral acts at best. Theft is generally on the law-chaos axis, not good-evil, ecxept when it's things like stealing the life's savings of a poor old lady, which most Kender wouldn't do.
Naeron 11-25-04, 11:55 AM	Theft is generally on the law-chaos axis, not good-evil, ecxept when it's things like stealing the life's savings of a poor old lady, which most Kender wouldn't do. It's on all axis because any action which harms an innocent is evil by D&D terms and any action which protects the inncent from harm without harming the innocent. There can be LG thefts (stealing from evil beings to save innocent ones on the orders of legitimate superiors) just as there can be CE thefts (stealing on a whim leaving people dying). Its only a real Law/Chaos issue if the person is governed by the observance of/opposition to external laws which is only one aspect of the Lawful - Chaos axis. Lawful does not mean law-abiding and Chaotic does not mean lawbreaking rather following or breaking laws stems from ones position on the validity of the concept of the imposition of order, which is a primary concern on that axis.
Falkus 11-25-04, 12:28 PM	It's on all axis because any action which harms an innocent is evil And Kender thefts, at most, generally cause annoyance, not harm, among their companions. They are not malicious in their thefts.
Thorak 11-25-04, 12:37 PM	They do steal, taking something without the owners permission is stealing. The fact that a kender may not want to understand the concept of property ownership is irrelevant to the fact that other people do understand it and apply it. If the Kender can't learn to respect other people's beliefs then it has no right to expect them to respect its belief that it shouldn't be beaten to death with a club. Stealing, like you say, involves taking without permission. It's impossible for a Kender to steal anything, because he doesn't understand the concept of 'take'. He has it right now, but so what? If you want it, he'll give it back. The very concept of "taking" implies that you're changing the possession of an item from someone else to yourself. Kender don't understand or acknowledge possession at all. Just because a PC believes its Ok to commit crimes doesn't make it true and Kender are not like 3 year olds, they are adults capable of making moral choices (because they have alignments) and should be treated as such. It's not a crime. If you want it back, he'll give it back. He's not taking anything, he's merely carrying it and possibly looking at it. To a Kender, there's no difference between your component pouch hanging on your belt, or in his hands being rooted through, save that the latter absolves his curiosity. Compare to, say, a modern workplace. Say I need a stapler, and Joe's left his desk for 5 minutes. Leaving his brand-new Turbo-Stapler 5000 on his desk. So I pick it up, carry it back to my desk, staple a couple things, and then bring it back. Where I find Joe, red-faced, yelling at me for being a dirty thief as he dials 911 to report the theft. Can you guess how that'll play out? The cops will show up, hear the stories, and tell Joe to stop being such an idiot. They might even charge him for placing a false accusation. Same deal here; the Kender's not taking anything. He may be currently holding it, but he's not claiming possession in any way. The party wouldn't accept such behaviour from another race so why should they accept it from a Kender, once its been told how things are then carrying on stealing just means that the Kender refuses to respect their friends views on the matter. I wouldn't have a problem with my Dwarf friend borrowing my dagger, either, if he's got to cut something. Or someone picking up my book and flipping through it while I head to the john. As long as they give it back, of course. And a Kender will, when asked. It's not a racial thing, it's called sharing. Kender are just culturally better suited to it. Its also an alignment matter because D&D alignments are not subjective, as soon as the Kenders "borrowing" harms an innocent it is committing evil acts and because it is never "borrowing" from need it is committing neutral acts at best. On the other hand, Kender's borrowing doesn't typically have any direct effect on anything. His borrowing the Cleric's holy symbol doesn't kill the party member who desperately needs healing, not directly. At best, it's an action which prevents another action from doing good. If it's anything, it's a neutral act. And it's neutral only because it has no leanings one way or the other; it doesn't directly benefit anyone, nor does it directly harm anyone. It has the same objective alignment as, say, drinking water. If you're drinking the last of the water just to spite the party and so they'll die of dehyrdration before you, that's evil. But it's not evil because of the water-drinking, but the intent behind it. Similarly, a kender's borrowing isn't evil, because while they might be holding onto something someone else needs, there was no harmful intent behind it.
danielinthewolvesden 11-25-04, 01:47 PM	How do the rest of the players feel about the thieving kender? If they don't like it, talk as a group to the DM and/or the offending player about the follies of interparty conflict (like theft from PCs). Perhaps peer pressure can get the DM to end the foolishness. This is best solved OOC. Talk to the DM and the other players. Explain that D&D is a Game, and games shoudl be fun for all playing. Explain that the Kender's Player may be having scads of fun, but you are not. Ask the DM and the kender's player to stop. Before- buttonhole a few of the other players, and make sure they'll back you on this.
UltimateReality 11-25-04, 01:54 PM	Thanks for all the replies, guys. I'll try to provide a bit more clarification here... First of all, the kender has not seen play yet; he is a brand new character that has been just rolled up. My concern with it is mainly that the player in question hasn't shown too much aptitude for roleplaying beyond stereotypes in the past. He is a big Dragonlance fan, however, so has the Tasselhof archetype to work with. We shall see -- I'll give it a few sessions and hopefully it won't be a problem. Thank you for all of the suggestions to trap/alarm my items. Some of these will definitely see play. As for consequences should my stuff go missing: my character has encountered kender before, and is (rightly, I think) cautious around them, but not paranoid or prejudiced. She is NG heading towards exalted, so she will not send him to the ninth layer of hell for "borrowing" her stuff. She will, however, warn him upon meeting him that should anything of hers go missing he will be the first place she'll look. I also will use the ideas of explaining the importance of the spell component pouch to him, and possibly letting him look through it while we're resting in our Magnificent Mansion for the night. The DM has ruled a spellbook (especially mine) is a little large for him to yoink unnoticeably, so that shouldn't be an issue. I really like the idea of having other shiny things to keep him occupied, too. That may see occasional use. The kender probably won't need much convincing to go around setting off traps, wiggling through small places, picking up cursed items, and generally drawing adversaries' attention away from the party. Thanks for pointing it out though. :) Except for the digression on alignment and what constitutes stealing, I'm very encouraged by all the helpful replies and suggestions. Thank you all again.
Thorak 11-25-04, 04:01 PM	Also; I'll just note that if you're reasonable, and start doing the "well, we're camped. You wanted to poke through my pouch? Here ya go." stuff, the player playing the Kender is being a metagaming tool who's trying to pick a fight if he then steals it later on. Kender are curious and have no concept of property, they're not malicious thieves. A kender, played well should be a little irritating but not frustrating. And the irritation should be offset by the inherent amusement at someone else's plight at having something lifted, or by the Kender's antics in charging headlong at an Ogre while the rest of the party looks on worried about confronting it. If the player starts yoinking stuff just to be an arse, cuff the player upside the head. Stealing the mage's component pouch, more than once or at any time when there may be a problem, isn't friendly gaming. Stealing the dwarf's lucky bootknife which the dwarf only actually uses for cutting twine now and then, that's amusing. Because it's not harming or endangering anyone.
Salla 11-25-04, 04:09 PM	Kender or no, someone who is stealing from the party is showing that he is untrustworthy and cannot be relied upon. He's not even a member of the party; he's a tagalong who's just there 'because'. The answer is simple. Throw the bum out. Note that this is 'throwing the character out of the party', not 'throwing the player out of the gaming group'. If you invited me over to your house sometime, and you knew DAMN well I was stealing your stuff, valuable or not, would you let me stay? No. Now, imagine if you're travelling through dangerous territory and you know I might steal your weapon, or your torch, or your Brooch Of Shielding, any one of which may become absolutely critical to your survival at a moment's notice. You'd give me the boot in a heartbeat. This is not a party member. This is a liability. This is an enemy in your midst. Vote him off the island, in-character.
Falkus 11-25-04, 05:19 PM	Kender or no, someone who is stealing from the party is showing that he is untrustworthy and cannot be relied upon. Actually, you'd be hard pressed to find a companion more reliable than a kender. They may have this tendancy to borrow your possesions without asking, but when things turn grim and the metal meets the meat, he'll be standing with you. He won't abandon you, and will be guaranteed to help you no matter how dire the circumstances. Now, imagine if you're travelling through dangerous territory and you know I might steal your weapon, or your torch, or your Brooch Of Shielding, any one of which may become absolutely critical to your survival at a moment's notice. You'd give me the boot in a heartbeat. Kender may not understand the concept of personal property, but they are not malicious. They will not take something from you that is vital to your survival, especially in dangerous circumstances.
danielinthewolvesden 11-25-04, 10:46 PM	Actually, you'd be hard pressed to find a companion more reliable than a kender. They may have this tendancy to borrow your possesions without asking, but when things turn grim and the metal meets the meat, he'll be standing with you. He won't abandon you, and will be guaranteed to help you no matter how dire the circumstances. Kender may not understand the concept of personal property, but they are not malicious. They will not take something from you that is vital to your survival, especially in dangerous circumstances. Well, yes- if played properly. But most (and i think in this case) folks play a Kender as an excuse to steal things from everyone and in general :censored: with his "companions". And the Player is cheating too. "What? :eek: " you say? yes, cheating. There is an unwritten rule that "D&D is a game, and thus we let you play". This player (and most kender players, and nigh every "it's OK to steal from my buddies" players) is abusing this rule. See- any real party would just say "buh-bye" :noway: and say "No thanks- you can't be part of this adventuring group- we don't want you". But guys who play obnoxious PC's abuse this unwitten rule- they want to have extra fun at everyone elses expense- and that's 'cheating" too, in a way. Really-UltimateReality- please- talk to the DM and the other players. Say "NO!!" now. Don't let it ruin your gaming fun- and everyone elses fun.
Aeromus 11-25-04, 11:23 PM	No. Now, imagine if you're travelling through dangerous territory and you know I might steal your weapon, or your torch, or your Brooch Of Shielding, any one of which may become absolutely critical to your survival at a moment's notice. You'd give me the boot in a heartbeat. Actually. In all the books it even specifies that Kender will not borrow, "weapons, torches, money, magic items. Yes I realize that Tasslehoff, borrowed flint's dagger, I realize Tasslehoff "borrowed" magic items...but never did he borrow a magic item that was on another person. He did pocket a few dragon orbs, necklaces from tables however. But, hell every player takes anything they find..so you can't fault the kender for that. And, to be honest, you'd be hardpressed to name hardly anything Tasslehoff borrowed from the rest of the party. Due to the fact the kender would "notice" this shiney ring, it's Joe's How did I get it? I better put it back in his pouch before he gets mad. And, the part you are forgetting is the kender don't "steal" by the definition. The don't even know they have it. It's just as big a surprise to them, they have it, that you miss it. "Oh hey that's your belt buckle? How did it get in my pouch? It must have fallen in there yesterday when you grabbed me for a hug." cheers
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-25-04, 11:26 PM	Well, yes- if played properly. But most (and i think in this case) folks play a Kender as an excuse to steal things from everyone and in general :censored: with his "companions". And the Player is cheating too. "What? :eek: " you say? yes, cheating. There is an unwritten rule that "D&D is a game, and thus we let you play". This player (and most kender players, and nigh every "it's OK to steal from my buddies" players) is abusing this rule. See- any real party would just say "buh-bye" :noway: and say "No thanks- you can't be part of this adventuring group- we don't want you". But guys who play obnoxious PC's abuse this unwitten rule- they want to have extra fun at everyone elses expense- and that's 'cheating" too, in a way. Really-UltimateReality- please- talk to the DM and the other players. Say "NO!!" now. Don't let it ruin your gaming fun- and everyone elses fun. :ahem: :ahem: :ahem: :ahem: but I have serious problems with the stealing-from-the-party bit. The kender PC is afflicted with kelptomania, and the DM will roll randomly to see what he takes off of who. The player is not trying to be meliciouse in anyway shape or from. He just wants to play a care free charactor, and happens to be a Kender fan. He has been warned that if his charactor becomes disruptive he will have to make another one. Becides whitch it is the DMs responciblity to decide what is aloud into the DM's campaign world. :teach:
Salla 11-25-04, 11:45 PM	And, the part you are forgetting is the kender don't "steal" by the definition. The don't even know they have it. It's just as big a surprise to them, they have it, that you miss it. "Oh hey that's your belt buckle? How did it get in my pouch? It must have fallen in there yesterday when you grabbed me for a hug." cheers If you take things that don't belong to you, then you're stealing. The reasoning just determines how badly you should be punished for it. In this case, you probably want to get rid of the little freak because he's a Kleptomaniac and is going to 'handle' something from someone you don't want to tick off.
Thorak 11-26-04, 12:15 AM	If you take things that don't belong to you, then you're stealing. The reasoning just determines how badly you should be punished for it. In this case, you probably want to get rid of the little freak because he's a Kleptomaniac and is going to 'handle' something from someone you don't want to tick off. And the Kender is taking nothing. Taking implies a change of ownership. No such change is happening when a Kender picks something up. It's like if someone puts a magazine down in a doctor's office, and you pick it up. And when they turn around, they call 911 because they bought that magazine and you stole it. You had absolutely no intent of depriving anyone of anything, merely reading something you thought was relatively public property. To a Kender, everything is effectively public property. If you're not guilty of theft in the above sentence (and any cops or judge would laugh at the person who phoned it in, rather than charge you, when they hear the stories), then the Kender isn't either.
Salla 11-26-04, 01:26 AM	However, if I take that magazine, tuck it into my jacket and walk out with it, I *am* stealing, whether I realized I did it or not.
Demon Lightfoot 11-26-04, 01:38 AM	I've played a kender; I told my DM to just randomly determine what (if anything) that he picked up, from other players or anywhere else, so that greed or desire for any particular item never came into the equation. He actually did swipe some coins, once, but these were heavy old 1e GP, and he used them in his Dennis The Menace-style slingshot when he ran out of bullets and stones. If another character ever pointed to something he was handling and said "Hey, that's mine", the little guy handed it back straightaway. He didn't care one whit. The other members of the group, being inveterate role-players, accepted it and played along. I guess what I'm attempting to convey is: Accept it, get over it and look at it as an opportunity for role-playing rather than something to get in a snit about. "Handling" is a racial trait for kender, like shortness is for dwarves; complaining about it or killing them over it is pointless. Actually. In all the books it even specifies that Kender will not borrow, "weapons, torches, money, magic items. Yes I realize that Tasslehoff, borrowed flint's dagger, And Flint could have had his dagger back if he'd wanted it...of course, it was stuck in the frontside of a face-down goblin. You never can get the smell out...
Naeron 11-26-04, 11:02 AM	While the above examples illustrate how Kender can be played without being disruptive this is not the case being discussed here. This is a campaign where the DM is making random rolls to determine what is stolen of who and where the player full expects such events to include his spellbook and component pouch. This type of Kender goes beyond a maturely played interesting concept into the annoying and immature area of the chaotic stupid alignments.
UltimateReality 11-26-04, 02:27 PM	This is a campaign where the DM is making random rolls to determine what is stolen of who and where the player full expects such events to include his spellbook and component pouch. This type of Kender goes beyond a maturely played interesting concept into the annoying and immature area of the chaotic stupid alignments. The DM also has at least half a brain cell left. He's been reading the thread too, and thus has access to the sacred knowledge of how to play a kender correctly...oh yeah, and he can always fudge rolls. It's not like there's a standard table for this. Each character has individualized gear. Some things will automatically be too large or fall into another definition (magic, weapon, gold, etc.). In fact, come to think of it, the party doesn't really have much on them for the kender to steal. I was just concerned for my spell component pouch, which will be taken care of as soon as I meet the guy.
Thorak 11-26-04, 03:11 PM	However, if I take that magazine, tuck it into my jacket and walk out with it, I *am* stealing, whether I realized I did it or not. Only because you acknowledge the office's ownership of it. To a kender, it's like everything is on one of those "take one free" racks. They just don't understand the concept of ownership, and thus are incapable of "taking" anything, and thus are incapable of theft. Unless you think the guy who unthinkingly puts the office pen in his pocket, starts to walk away, and gives the pen back when the secretary asks for it, is a criminal. Heck, even with your example, if they ask for the magazine back and he gives it to them, it's not theft.
fractal 11-26-04, 03:44 PM	Only because you acknowledge the office's ownership of it. To a kender, it's like everything is on one of those "take one free" racks. They just don't understand the concept of ownership, and thus are incapable of "taking" anything, and thus are incapable of theft. Unless you think the guy who unthinkingly puts the office pen in his pocket, starts to walk away, and gives the pen back when the secretary asks for it, is a criminal. Heck, even with your example, if they ask for the magazine back and he gives it to them, it's not theft. It's still theft even if he would have given the magazine back, had they asked for it. Why didn't they ask for it, after all? Because he was sneaky and they didn't know he had it! Merely saying "oh, I would have given it back if they'd asked for it" is not a defense! Similarly, kender "borrowing" has the exact same practical effects as theft, and fits the same definition. It is theft. It doesn't matter if you stole out of greed, for a good cause, or just because it looked shiny. The kender had easy access to the information that the person wanted to hang onto the object. If the kender subsequently chose to ignore that information, for whatever reason, then it is theft. If you're a troll, and you cut off a human's head, saying "oh, my people always get back up after you cut off their head, it just annoys them a little", it's still murder.
Lord_Anthrax 11-26-04, 03:51 PM	Somebody's got issues. Technically speaking, it's only stealing if they don't give it back. All you've got to do is ask the Kender, and he'll give whatever he took back. Yep. I hate Kender. My view is that the best Kender is one that's been skewered on a pike and slow-roasted over an open flame. Mm-MM!
Lord_Anthrax 11-26-04, 03:58 PM	It doesn't matter if you stole out of greed, for a good cause, or just because it looked shiny. The kender had easy access to the information that the person wanted to hang onto the object. If the kender subsequently chose to ignore that information, for whatever reason, then it is theft. Exactly! This is also why any sane businessperson won't allow a Kender in their shop where items are on display with any kind of easy access. They'll get robbed blind. Kender may say they borrow. People may know this is how Kender are. But knowing that someone can't help stealing doesn't make them innocent of the crime. Kleptomania or not, if you take something that isn't yours and is not public property or the property of another existing being, it's theft. Period, end.
tec-9-7 11-26-04, 04:28 PM	I totally despise the "kender" model of halflings... That's all I have to say about that.
Kainy 11-26-04, 05:46 PM	I think you should just immediately kill the kender... but that's because I hate them. I don't like kids, either, though.
Falkus 11-26-04, 05:49 PM	Kender may say they borrow. People may know this is how Kender are. But knowing that someone can't help stealing doesn't make them innocent of the crime. Well, actually, in today's society, yes it does make them innocent. The mentally ill are not considered responsible for their actions. That's why you can plead not guilty by reason of insanity in court. Of course, if you're aquited by that plea, odds are you'll spend more time in a mental hospital being treated than you would have spent in jail. Kleptomania or not, if you take something that isn't yours and is not public property or the property of another existing being, it's theft. Period, end. We're talking about an adventuring party here, not general society.
Thorak 11-26-04, 07:39 PM	It's still theft even if he would have given the magazine back, had they asked for it. Why didn't they ask for it, after all? Because he was sneaky and they didn't know he had it! Merely saying "oh, I would have given it back if they'd asked for it" is not a defense! Similarly, kender "borrowing" has the exact same practical effects as theft, and fits the same definition. It is theft. Got it. If I forget the candy bar I put in my pocket, get through the cash without paying for it, notice it in the parking lot, and go back in to pay they should arrest me for shoplifting. Do you really believe this? It doesn't matter if you stole out of greed, for a good cause, or just because it looked shiny. The kender had easy access to the information that the person wanted to hang onto the object. If the kender subsequently chose to ignore that information, for whatever reason, then it is theft. Unless they're mentally incapable of understanding the concept. Mental illness or incapacity is a reason for pardon. That's why it's a legal defense. If you're a troll, and you cut off a human's head, saying "oh, my people always get back up after you cut off their head, it just annoys them a little", it's still murder. The difference being that the troll knows perfectly well, and is perfectly capable of understanding, that humans don't regenerate. If they attack a human, they know full well they're attacking to kill permanently.
danielinthewolvesden 11-26-04, 07:51 PM	Except for the digression on alignment and what constitutes stealing, I'm very encouraged by all the helpful replies and suggestions. Thank you all again. Our OP has kindly asked that we don't go into the usual arguments about "stealing" and "alignment"- OK? :banghead:
feartheinvinceblehamster 11-26-04, 09:24 PM	hey, how dare you insult the kender! they are the best race ever created, in fact, go to this site (http://www.kencyclopedia.com) and hail to the kender!!!
UltimateReality 11-27-04, 11:56 AM	It's still theft even if he would have given the magazine back, had they asked for it. Why didn't they ask for it, after all? Because he was sneaky and they didn't know he had it! Merely saying "oh, I would have given it back if they'd asked for it" is not a defense! Similarly, kender "borrowing" has the exact same practical effects as theft, and fits the same definition. It is theft. It doesn't matter if you stole out of greed, for a good cause, or just because it looked shiny. The kender had easy access to the information that the person wanted to hang onto the object. If the kender subsequently chose to ignore that information, for whatever reason, then it is theft. If you're a troll, and you cut off a human's head, saying "oh, my people always get back up after you cut off their head, it just annoys them a little", it's still murder. However in the case of a Kender, it may be stealing, but becuase the Kender is not consciously aware of it, said kender could not be held criminally responsible. Now can we let this rest please?!?!? You guys are worse than my party at times! [Edit: hm, looks like my lovely DM forgot to check to make sure he was logged in as himself again. Ah well. You'd think I'd learn to log myself out each time. x.x]
fractal 11-28-04, 02:48 AM	However in the case of a Kender, it may be stealing, but becuase the Kender is not consciously aware of it, said kender could not be held criminally responsible. Now can we let this rest please?!?!? You guys are worse than my party at times! Do you still want more input about behavior, or are you done? Because there is merit to the discussion about theft. Anyway, regardless of whether you hold the kender "criminally responsible", society would lock him up or punish him similarly so that he couldn't do it again. Of course, society is generally neutral, and the character in question is apparently Exalted. You might just have to accept that all of your belongings are forfeit, and take Eschew Materials and Spell Mastery a lot. By the way, Kenders have reasonable Intelligence scores. What exactly is the difference between "I don't want you to stab me with a knife", "I don't want you to break all of the potions on the ground", and "I don't want you to move this spellbook from where I put it"? No kender with an Int of 8 or higher should have difficulty parsing any of these phrases. He might not understand why, but he will understand what it is that you don't want him to do. If he chooses to ignore your wishes, then he is liable for the consequences.
Falkus 11-28-04, 03:03 AM	You might just have to accept that all of your belongings are forfeit, and take Eschew Materials and Spell Mastery a lot. Oh for god's sake. Kendar don't steal maliciously. The most they'll ever cause is a minor irritation. No kender with an Int of 8 or higher should have difficulty parsing any of these phrases. He might not understand why, but he will understand what it is that you don't want him to do. If he chooses to ignore your wishes, then he is liable for the consequences. You know what? You're lawful-neutral personified, you know that?
fractal 11-28-04, 04:32 AM	You know what? You're lawful-neutral personified, you know that? ;) Okay if I put this into my signature?
General Dorsey 11-28-04, 11:09 AM	Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot: I've played a kender; I told my DM to just randomly determine what (if anything) that he picked up, from other players or anywhere else, so that greed or desire for any particular item never came into the equation. He actually did swipe some coins, once, but these were heavy old 1e GP, and he used them in his Dennis The Menace-style slingshot when he ran out of bullets and stones. This is one of the better ways a kender should be played. If you played one like this in my campaign, you would be allowed. Nearly everyone I have ever gamed with who really wanted to play a kender used it as an excuse to steal from the party and (in the words of danielinthewolvesden) cheat knowing that the other players didn't want to be that disruptive. Kender have no concept of ownership. This means that they not only pick up things periodically, but the put them down also. They may not be stupid, but they don't keep track of what they have either.
ShadowDragon8685 11-28-04, 11:34 AM	Ordinary, I'm CG. However, when it comes to property rights, I'm LN personified, if not Lawful Evil. Kender will not be tolerated by me. The first time something is stolen from me - and if nessessary, I will sit down with the Kender and launch into a 22-INT fueled explination property rights, possession, and theft - I will ask him not to steal from myself or the party again. If he PERSISTS, then the second time will be met with a Hold Person, another lecture on property rights (this time delivered by the Barbarian,) and we'll all glare at him. The THIRD time he tries, he'll find that all my (and all of the parties') belongings have been trapped with Shocking Grasp spells made specifically to fire if touched by Racial Group: Kender. The FOURTH time, I'm just going to turn around and Phantasmal Killer him. Rogues = suck Fort and Will saves. And if the DM ridicilously rules that a Killer won't work on the Kender because he's immune to fear, then I will make it Finger of Death, and see how immunity to fear effects having necromantic energy force you to make a Fort Save Vs. Cardiac Arrest. . I don't like creatures that lift stuff from me. Especially importent stuff.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-28-04, 11:54 AM	HAH! I finally made the same mistake as my DM....this obviously isn't TPK. This is me, UltimateReality. (I wish they'd let us delete our own posts. *sigh* I hate to confuse people because of my own stupidity.) Onwards.... Do you still want more input about behavior, or are you done? Because there is merit to the discussion about theft. Heh, well, the usefulness of this thread to me personally is kind of waning, and although my DM (on_the_wings_of_TPK for those of you who haven't figured it out already) might appreciate more debate, from the sounds of his posting he's not too keen on it. *shrug* I don't presume to determine what others will discuss on an open forum, even if it is a topic I started. I myself am kinda curious in case kender ever come up in my campaign. Anyway, regardless of whether you hold the kender "criminally responsible", society would lock him up or punish him similarly so that he couldn't do it again. Yup. It's happened before in town. The only problem is that this time there's no police, as we're in a dungeon. He'll just be encouraged to go find traps instead. :plotting: (What? He's a rogue with improved evasion! He'll be fine....) Of course, society is generally neutral, and the character in question is apparently Exalted. You might just have to accept that all of your belongings are forfeit, and take Eschew Materials and Spell Mastery a lot. I believe our in-game society is Lawful Neutral... I am not quite exalted yet, but heading there. I don't think all my belongings will go missing (again, the DM has read this thread), but I'm certainly going to be prepared just in case. Consequences should anything go missing after its importance was explained to the kender will have to be worked out. I think perhaps just explaining the danger he put us in will be good for a first time. Then my spell pouch gets alarmed. I don't honestly think it'll be a problem past then -- my DM is sometimes whimsical and teasing, but never a real jerk. No kender with an Int of 8 or higher should have difficulty parsing any of these phrases. He might not understand why, but he will understand what it is that you don't want him to do. If he chooses to ignore your wishes, then he is liable for the consequences. Of course, the opposing side of the argument will say that kender don't know they're taking something when they do it, and thus even though they agree to and understand your statement, some of your stuff may still accidentally find its way into his hands. (Of course, he'll give it back right away should you ask, or if he happens to find it in his inventory while looking for something else.) That side prefers to say that it's unconscious on the kender's part. This seems to be somewhat the way my DM is leaning, but usually he is a paragon of moderation, and I don't feel qualified to make a judgement call on this one until after the gaming session tonight.
Forbius 11-28-04, 01:31 PM	Let the fun begin! Ehem, well, where to start, Kenders are fun, simple as that, i'm the player who rolled out the stats and i'm actually looking forward to playing the character. as for borrowing from the party, the dm has already made a radom roll table where he decides if i do even take from the party, this is not controlled by me. I'm playing this character for fun, and it would be nice to have a little bit of a relaxed player who isn't so serious (god we have lots of serious players in our party). Of course all of you have your opinions of Kenders, but Tass wasn't bad, heck i think he what rounded out the party in Dragon Lance. anyways, i'm sure players and dm's that we'll keep you all posted on the fun and excitement.
Falkus 11-28-04, 02:02 PM	Okay if I put this into my signature? Go right ahead.
Thorak 11-28-04, 02:23 PM	Ordinary, I'm CG. However, when it comes to property rights, I'm LN personified, if not Lawful Evil. Kender will not be tolerated by me. The first time something is stolen from me - and if nessessary, I will sit down with the Kender and launch into a 22-INT fueled explination property rights, possession, and theft - I will ask him not to steal from myself or the party again. If he PERSISTS, then the second time will be met with a Hold Person, another lecture on property rights (this time delivered by the Barbarian,) and we'll all glare at him. The THIRD time he tries, he'll find that all my (and all of the parties') belongings have been trapped with Shocking Grasp spells made specifically to fire if touched by Racial Group: Kender. The FOURTH time, I'm just going to turn around and Phantasmal Killer him. Rogues = suck Fort and Will saves. And if the DM ridicilously rules that a Killer won't work on the Kender because he's immune to fear, then I will make it Finger of Death, and see how immunity to fear effects having necromantic energy force you to make a Fort Save Vs. Cardiac Arrest. . I don't like creatures that lift stuff from me. Especially importent stuff. Or, you could, you know, let the Kender root through your stuff while camped at night, so he satisfies his curiosity and you can explain why each piece needs to be where it is, not because it's yours, but because you might need it at any moment. His curiosity salved, he has no more reason to be rooting through your stuff, and you don't have to get psychotic on him.
fractal 11-28-04, 02:42 PM	Of course, the opposing side of the argument will say that kender don't know they're taking something when they do it, and thus even though they agree to and understand your statement, some of your stuff may still accidentally find its way into his hands. (Of course, he'll give it back right away should you ask, or if he happens to find it in his inventory while looking for something else.) That side prefers to say that it's unconscious on the kender's part. This seems to be somewhat the way my DM is leaning, but usually he is a paragon of moderation, and I don't feel qualified to make a judgement call on this one until after the gaming session tonight. So kender are sentient beings cohabiting bodies with a kleptomaniac non-sentient subconscious? Okay... But if you want to restrict the kleptomaniac behavior, you still only have the kender's body to apply the restrictions to. Anyway, I can't see my characters being any more or less tolerant of a kender's light fingers, than of the impulsive behavior of any other low wisdom character. A certain amount will be tolerated (depending upon my character), after that, steps will be taken to prevent it, whatever that might require.
UltimateReality 11-28-04, 04:35 PM	So kender are sentient beings cohabiting bodies with a kleptomaniac non-sentient subconscious? Okay... But if you want to restrict the kleptomaniac behavior, you still only have the kender's body to apply the restrictions to. IF I were going to play kender along those lines, I'd liken it more to a semi- or unconscious addiction or habit. Granted, it's one heck of an unconscious habit, but if the culture you grew up in has no concept of personal property ownership to begin with, I could possibly consider it realistic enough to suspend disbelief for a little while. (Without getting into an anthropology lecture, there are a few hunter-gatherer cultures in our world that operate somewhat like this.) Of course, then a kender raised in a non-kender culture would not have the (as we define it) "kleptomania". I'd say it's culturally based. You could even train it out of a kender, although it's really really hard to break habits you've had all your life, especially if they're so second nature you're barely aware you're doing them. *thinks of Kender Anonymous meetings* However, none of this is my decision to make as I'm not the DM and not playing the kender. As I said before, I'll see how this session goes. The player in question (Forbius on these boards) makes a good point about our party needing some levity, anyway. We've all been under strain lately, both IC, OOC, and IRL. We'd rather the stress forge the bonds than break them.
jasper 11-29-04, 10:28 AM	Kender a stupid race with plot immunity and the power of DM( and author) backing them up so they not wiped out. Thanks Thorak for showing how the perfect role-player can play the perfect Kender. You could write an excellent article on the Kender point of view for the Dragon magazine. Depending on how black and white or shades of gray your DM rules on alignment with set the tone whether Kender are stealing or just borrowing. Kender with mental illness? When in Dragonlance books did they adopt a twenty first century legal system. Trolls know more than Kenders? Int 6 (morons) vs Int 10 (avg). Trolls are eating food. The best solution is for each town to keep a chain troll in a pit and toss any Kender into the pit to take care of problem.
kam_Islash 11-29-04, 10:58 AM	Give him a portable hole, and tell him that there's stealable goods in the bag of holding. Get as far away as you can. Problem solved. ///
Thorak 11-29-04, 02:48 PM	Kender a stupid race with plot immunity and the power of DM( and author) backing them up so they not wiped out. Thanks Thorak for showing how the perfect role-player can play the perfect Kender. You could write an excellent article on the Kender point of view for the Dragon magazine. It doesn't take a perfect role-player. Just someone who's not an arse. Depending on how black and white or shades of gray your DM rules on alignment with set the tone whether Kender are stealing or just borrowing. Kender with mental illness? When in Dragonlance books did they adopt a twenty first century legal system. Trolls know more than Kenders? Int 6 (morons) vs Int 10 (avg). Trolls are eating food. The best solution is for each town to keep a chain troll in a pit and toss any Kender into the pit to take care of problem. It's not a 21st century legal system, and Kender's actions often were considered theft in Dragonlance. We're not discussing actual legality in that time and place, we're discussing morality. And an int of 6 means a lot more than "me eat food". Animals top out at 2. And plenty of people have lower than a 6. Trolls are stupid, sure, but they can speak, and know enough to know that other things don't regenerate. Even if other things they mentally refer to collectively as "not-troll-therefore-food" And I especially enjoy how your "solution" involves enslaving a horribly dangerous beast that will gnaw it's arms off to get out of it's chains to painfully devour people who might be stealing something. Because, you know, slavery, risking the safety of the town, and committing genocide because of possible crimes are all better than a little shoplifting.
MorbidThoughts 11-29-04, 04:10 PM	im not sure this has been stated i didnt read the whole thread but make it a point and tell your dm that your character whould check your belongings every five minutes or so to ensure nothing is missing also when i was a wizard for a higher price of the material component my dm allowed me to cast arcane lock on my spellbook carrying case
MorbidThoughts 11-29-04, 04:41 PM	just make it so the DM will not allow them to make slieght of hand checks because making sleight of hand checks means the kender wishes to be sneaky about it and apparently not wanting you know that it is missing therefore you can notice this is happening and either allow or stop it
Falkus 11-29-04, 07:24 PM	just make it so the DM will not allow them to make slieght of hand checks because making sleight of hand checks means the kender wishes to be sneaky about it and apparently not wanting you know that it is missing therefore you can notice this is happening and either allow or stop it Are you suggesting that he convince his DM to allow him to metagame?
MorbidThoughts 11-29-04, 08:49 PM	Are you suggesting that he convince his DM to allow him to metagame? nono i mean let the player decide the motivations of his kender's "borrowing" if its to actually steal with hopes that other characters will not notice then by all means roll away, but if the kenders borrowing for the sake of roleplaying a kenders personality then there is no actual reason for the kender to be sneaky about it -
Falkus 11-29-04, 09:17 PM	nono i mean let the player decide the motivations of his kender's "borrowing" if its to actually steal with hopes that other characters will not notice then by all means roll away, but if the kenders borrowing for the sake of roleplaying a kenders personality then there is no actual reason for the kender to be sneaky about it I suggest that you reread the dragonlance series.
Palin the Wizard 11-30-04, 12:33 AM	Kender don't need to be sneaky, they just are. Thorak, that's an excellent explanation of a kender's psyche! :clap:
TLomon 11-30-04, 01:48 AM	I have to agree. Thorak did a wonderful job explaining the psychology of a kender. I would liketo add a few more things. Kender truly have no concept of personal possessions. If a kender handles an item, is then caught and accused of theft, the kender would be an emotional wreck. They simply do not understand what is going on. Now here is the part that will perk your coffee... Background: Kender is accussed of stealing a bag of rubies from an adventurer in the bar. The kender stated during the report, while crying, that the bag was about to fall to the ground, they caught it, and forgot to give it back. The adventurer accuses theft. During the trial, a cleric casts detect lies on the kender. When asked if they stole the bag of rubies, the kender says no. No lie was detected. When asked if the bag was truly falling to the ground, the kender says yes. No lie was detected. When asked if they truly intended to give the bag back, the kender says yes. No lie was detected. During the entire testimony, the kender is crying, upset and confused as to how they could possibly be accused of being a thief. How is this possible? Because the kender simply can not conceive of what other people consider theft. In the kender's mind, they ARE telling the truth. Now, why is this an issue? Take another concept. Um... snow. If an individual was raised in the desert, and their entire life never heard of snow, never read about snow, etc. How do you explain to that individual what snow is? It simply isn't a concept they can't understand. Read Aristotle's Allegory of the Cave. If you can understand that piece of work (and you would be surprised how many people just don't get it), you have touched on what is going on in a kender's head.
Cyrus_Shadowstalker 11-30-04, 01:54 AM	Easiest method to defeat an annoying Kender (and there are annoying ones and fun ones the annoying ones are the ones that keep ending up with your tools) is to just take a quick inventory every morning, and everytime that the kender was alone with you or your pack. We wrote out Standard operating procedures for our DM to let him know that, soon as something was missing we asked the kender, the kender denied seeing it, we asked to go through her pouches and was even more surprised then we were to find it and handed it back over before we had a chance to ask for it.... barring that if the kender is an annoying punk and not party player, start arranging things so that he's not left alone with your gear, and start trapping it. All else fails, grease his hoopak and when he's sleeping start going through his bags and getting the party's stuff back, if he complains mes him and drop him at the closest constable. You asked him nicely, now's he's just beinga jerk... Truthfully I have fun playing kender and rarely endup with anything really valuable of the party's usually it's like the mage's mother's ring, or the fighter's lucky teddy bear... or in one case the cleric's luck g-string... that wasn't pretty.... he was really upset I had it too....
TLomon 11-30-04, 02:02 AM	All else fails, grease his hoopak and when he's sleeping start going through his bags and getting the party's stuff back, if he complains mes him and drop him at the closest constable. If the kender complains, they are not playing a kender correctly, and should be penalized any RP xp for the adventure.
kam_Islash 11-30-04, 12:22 PM	Become the DM. Thats an easy way to get the DM to dissallow Kenders. They arent even in the original D&D! Screw them! ///
trentgrey 11-30-04, 01:54 PM	All you guys who say, "Ask it for it back, he'll give it to you." I seriously hope you guys get DMs/Players that nice. I've NEVER seen it played like that. My DM went as far as to give the Kender a +20 Racial bonus on Pick pocket for their natural skill :rolleyes: Whenever I asked for it back he said "get what back?" If I tried to look through his pouch the DM would roll to see how much stuff he takes from me while I did it. After I had lost everything, even my clothes :mad: , the DM and player just laughed at how hilarious it was. When I cast burning hands and obliterated him, after 13 warnings I might add, I was booted from the game for being disruptive. I'm glad some of you guys are so optimistic about Kender being properly role-played. I, however will never play with one again.
Thorak 11-30-04, 03:37 PM	All you guys who say, "Ask it for it back, he'll give it to you." I seriously hope you guys get DMs/Players that nice. I've NEVER seen it played like that. My DM went as far as to give the Kender a +20 Racial bonus on Pick pocket for their natural skill :rolleyes: Whenever I asked for it back he said "get what back?" If I tried to look through his pouch the DM would roll to see how much stuff he takes from me while I did it. After I had lost everything, even my clothes :mad: , the DM and player just laughed at how hilarious it was. When I cast burning hands and obliterated him, after 13 warnings I might add, I was booted from the game for being disruptive. I'm glad some of you guys are so optimistic about Kender being properly role-played. I, however will never play with one again. See, this is a case of a DM making up ridiculous houserules, and someone who is deliberately misinterpreting a Kender's lack of conception of property to create a character deliberately designed to steal everything from everyone in the party. IMHO, it's just as childish and idiotic as the guy who makes the CE Assassin in the mostly NG-LG party who then gleefully coup-de-gras' everyone the first night they're out, and declare "I R teh w1nn3r!" The fact that people can be complete tools and abuse something doesn't mean it's bad. It means they're tools.
Lincoln Hills 11-30-04, 06:31 PM	Maybe the thread should've been titled, "Getting DM to disallow jerks? Help!" The problem isn't the kender, it's the player. I've seen a lot of (improperly played) kender PCs, and not ONE has suffered from the 'flip side' of the kender attitude: impulsive generosity. (I've often claimed that a Coin-Pouch of Uncontrollable Generosity would be a FAR, FAR worse cursed item than any of the ones in the DMG. ;)
webgear68 11-30-04, 06:38 PM	its simple easy and quick if done in the middle of a quest i mean what are the possible chances of a new kender being near where you are?
fractal 11-30-04, 07:07 PM	When I cast burning hands and obliterated him, after 13 warnings I might add, I was booted from the game for being disruptive. Sounds like maybe Color Spray or Sleep would have been a better means of incapacitating him for payback. Take all of his stuff while he can't do anything about it, and tie him up while he's unconscious. Getting other characters to help out might have been worthwhile too.
danielinthewolvesden 11-30-04, 07:35 PM	Maybe the thread should've been titled, "Getting DM to disallow jerks? Help!" The problem isn't the kender, it's the player. I've seen a lot of (improperly played) kender PCs, and not ONE has suffered from the 'flip side' of the kender attitude: impulsive generosity. But that's the point- I have never seen a "properly played" kender. Few have. 99% of them are an excuse to be disruptive. (100% of them played outside Krynn).
Cyrus_Shadowstalker 11-30-04, 08:33 PM	Only played one Kender outside of Krynn... and it started out as a DL game but the DM taking over hte game didn't want to deal with the world... *0% of the Kender I've dealt with were in Krynn though, and usually they get them fairly close, and when we notice that the Kender is "not acting Kender" we let the other player know and they start to tailor the character more to what the character should be... then again I've lucked out and had some very decent players in my groups over the years....
Grox 12-01-04, 12:57 AM	Kender are bad news. IME no campaign survives them. Most DMs that allow them are losers who can't put in the effort to see how unworkable they are. Quit this campaign. You are better off.
Palin the Wizard 12-01-04, 07:29 AM	Apparently you haven't read the thread. It is has been quite clearly established (by Thorak especially) that the kender race is not the problem. In fact, they work excellently in a party. The problem is immature or abusive players. If a kender doesn't hand back whatever he took, he's not being a proper kender. Kenders does not have any concept of "possession". A family heirloom is something that's been in the kender's house for three weeks. (Kender lock their doors, but that's only because it's considered polite. Whoever wants to go in are free to; they just have to pick the lock first. Once inside, anything is up for grabs. Of course, something heavy--such as a bed--isn't likely to be carried off.) A kender will not have something so simple as a "favorite" item, simply because they would not understand the idea. You need a knife? Ask the kender for one. Your pouch is ripped? Ask the kender for one. Kenders are fantastic in that aspect. They will have most ordinary items in spades, and they're happy to give them away (presuming they get something in return, of course. It could be as simple as a stone with nice colors--something the kender could have to trade away again). And if you lose any possession, go to the kender and kindly ask it back. He'll hand it over with a grin and a sentence much like, "You dropped it. I was just going to give it back to you." Kenders are a blessing for any party, as long as the party can keep their sociopathic tendencies in check. Killing the kender for handling is quite extreme. A stern talking-to would be much better, even if it has to be repeated every day. Kenders are an extraordinary boost to any party's morality. They fear nothing, and they will charge a dragon head-on if they feel it's threatening their friends. Of course, moderation is the key. The party should grab the kender's collar before he goes off doing that, as it would most likely result in an untimely death. Many also equate the kender with children. They have a child's face, a child's size, and a child's innocence. Thus, most adversaries will underestimate a kender. But kenders are not children. They are intelligent adults, and assuming their Wisdom scores are above average (as PCs often are), they are quite capable of being as serious as the next partymember. A kender just as capable of defending themselves as everyone else (and in some cases, more). The simple facts are these: Kenders are the perfect friends. Become friends with a kender, and even though you'll have to ask for your stuff every now and then, you'll have a friend for life, who will do almost anything for you. Kenders acquire possessions. Kenders will give anything back to a friend who asks for it (even if it did not belong to the friend to begin with). Kenders fear nothing. They will charge any enemy, defend their friends at any cost. A kender will tackle an ogre single-handedly in order to save a friend. Kenders are excellent trapspringers, excellent lockpickers. Kenders are the perfect dungeon delvers. They can spring the party from jail often. Kenders are great bluffers. Kenders are the perfect diversions. Kenders will attract notice.
ShadowDragon8685 12-01-04, 10:05 AM	* Kenders are the perfect friends. Become friends with a kender, and even though you'll have to ask for your stuff every now and then, you'll have a friend for life, who will do almost anything for you. * Kenders acquire possessions. * Kenders will give anything back to a friend who asks for it (even if it did not belong to the friend to begin with). * Kenders fear nothing. They will charge any enemy, defend their friends at any cost. A kender will tackle an ogre single-handedly in order to save a friend. * Kenders are excellent trapspringers, excellent lockpickers. Kenders are the perfect dungeon delvers. They can spring the party from jail often. * Kenders are great bluffers. * Kenders are the perfect diversions. * Kenders will attract notice. All of these qualities are avaiable from your garden-variety Halfling Rogue, save the immunity to magical Fear attacks. (The trick is finding a Halfling who'll tackle an Ogre with Kender-like vigor. It CAN be done.) However, your garden-variety Halfling Rogue is unlikely to steal from his friends. Yes, steal. I don't care if the Kender understands that it's stealing or not. When it's something owned by a non-Kender, it's not up for borrowing, and taking it is THEFT. Ownership is defined as being on the person of, or within the land holdings of someone. Kender obviously understand the concept of land holdings, because they have homes, with doors. And, given that, there will be no mercy when the boiling point is reached. If I have to explain it ten times, I will. If I have to explain it eleven times, there will be a Kender making a Fortitude roll very shortly.
eudas 12-01-04, 10:13 AM	Geas the little guy so that whenever he steals, takes, or borrows anything from you, he immediately puts it back exactly where he got it from and in exactly the same condition. If you can't get geas cast, use Wish or Limited Wish to get the same effect, since it can duplicate the spell effect. Optional: geas him to apologize for doing so. Or, If you want to be cruel, you could make him do a stupid dance every time he takes something. Humiliation is a very good training tool with cats, so i don't see why it wouldn't work on another player as well. Hopefully, he will eventually get tired of it and stop trying to annoy the **** out of you. Unfortunately, Kender fans never get tired of the endless "heeheehee...", and if they can't use kender, they just use halfling the same way. Don't look for them to be growing up anytime soon. eudas
Thorak 12-01-04, 10:59 AM	Yes, steal. I don't care if the Kender understands that it's stealing or not. When it's something owned by a non-Kender, it's not up for borrowing, and taking it is THEFT. Ownership is defined as being on the person of, or within the land holdings of someone. Kender obviously understand the concept of land holdings, because they have homes, with doors. Apparently, you have absolutely no idea what constitutes "ownership". If it's defined as "being on the person of", then stealing can't be wrong, because the moment I take it, I own it. If it's defined as "within the land holdings", then anyone who travels across someone's land has to give that person everything they own, down to their clothes. These are all obviously not true. Because ownership is a lot more complicated than you're trying to claim it is. All the Kender is doing is making you share without bothering you by asking you first. You can have it back whenever you like. It's still "yours" by any legal standard. He's just currently holding onto it. The kender doesn't "own" anything he borrows any more than my neighbour owns the lawnmower I lent him for the day. But I suppose someone who thinks death is a good penalty for stealing might have some trouble with that. I'm sure you'd fit in well in the Middle East, in those fundamentalist Islamic countries that agree with you. Most of us in the Western world see that as just a wee bit psychotic, though.
Palin the Wizard 12-01-04, 11:35 AM	All of these qualities are avaiable from your garden-variety Halfling Rogue, save the immunity to magical Fear attacks. No, they're not. Yes, steal. I don't care if the Kender understands that it's stealing or not. When it's something owned by a non-Kender, it's not up for borrowing, and taking it is THEFT. Ownership is defined as being on the person of, or within the land holdings of someone. Kender obviously understand the concept of land holdings, because they have homes, with doors. Actually, aside from your incorrect definition of ownership (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ownership), kender only have homes because they don't enjoy sleeping in the rain (at least they don't enjoy it after having done it a few times. It's not that pleasant). And as I pointed out before: The door is always locked, but kender expect their guests to pick the lock open.
Defcon4 12-01-04, 11:58 AM	Death is way out of hand. But i also think some of the attitudes in favor of "kenderisms" is way out of hand as well. Kenders aren't racially retarded. They do have intelleigence. The concept of ownership may not exist culturally, but the moment they leave their own lands, a Kender will have that concept explained to him. The Kender may think the concept of ownership backwards and silly, but if they aren't intellectually sub-human, a Kender will understand it. Thus taking from individuals who have gone on record as being disagreeable to that is disrespectfull to that person. Why is the Kender allowed to be disrespectfull to the wishes of others? Why is everything being put on others to be accepting and thick skinned while a Kender is not being put upon in the slightest? Is it because they apparently don't know what they are doing when they do it? Are we dealing with a pyschosis now? If so, it's entirely up to the individual on whether or not he/she wishes to deal with someone with such problems on a regular basis. Some people may be blaise about someone "borrowing" their things without their knowledge. That's fine. But don't twist things to look like anyone not fine with their things being taken is being difficult. If the Wizard goes for his wand of magic missiles in a combat situation and it isn't there, that's a problem. If the wizard has to spend the time taking an inventory of his equipment everyday, that's a problem for some people. And hey, maybe everything isn't hinged on the "i don't want you touching my valuables" ethic. Maybe some items are personal, like a letter or locket of a loved one who died. Maybe some items are so personal, no one but the character has access to them. That character shouldn't have to let a Kender pilfer thru those things to alleviate curiosity. As a Kender isn't a numbskull, it's all about respect of others culture and/or ideals. Unless of course, a Kender has a mental deficiency with makes him take things, in which case it's all about the tolerance level of his associates and the inevitable conclusion of the law getting involved.
kam_Islash 12-01-04, 12:14 PM	Use wish: "I wish the kender were a chicken." ///
Nived 12-01-04, 12:16 PM	First off, plural of kender is kender. "There are about twenty kender over there" stop writing kenders. Thank you. Second, Shadowdragon, take a deep breath and calm down. A have a couple things to say about misconceptions of Kender in Dragonlance. Honestly Krynn is the only land they should ever be allowed in but I digress. All kender are reckless idiots. "I'm a kender, not stupid. This is stupid" Nightshade, Amber & Ashes. It is often said that kender are so fearless that they could walk up to a sleeping great red wyrm and kick it in the shin. This is true, they could, not many would. Because there are just too many interesting things in the world to see to die just yet, and besides that might get their friends hurt. Kender DO INDEED have a sense of self presurvation, they just don't always use it. The ones that don't usually end up dead. All kender are 'handlers'. Not true. Putting Afflicted Kender aside for a momment, not all true kender borrow. Some just plain aren't good at it (low dex no ranks in sleight of hand) thier natural tendancy HAS been curbed by being caught and chewed out many times over their lives. To the point where they just don't do it anymore. Kender should be in jail. True, and most are. In fact it's usually where kender plan to stay the night. Many large towns do have an 'arrest on sight' policy with kender, where they're captured, their pouches are removed, and they are either jailed (untill the jailers sanity is at an end) or tossed out of town. This is just part of life for a kender, they roll with it. No one in their right mind would try to keep a kender locked up for too long because there is nothing more terrifying than a bored kender. Cthuhlu spawn have nothing on the sanity draining effects of a bored kender. Kender as a race, should be dead. They'd be wiped out by (insert race, or whatever here) False. Oh people have TRIED commiting kender gennocide many times infact over the history of Krynn. However considering the loyalty of the kender once you attack them they close ranks and come together so tenatiously it has so far always failed. Kender towns for one thing are nearly impossible to seige, built for kender by kender its impossible to try to move an army through them (for instance the only straight street in Kendermore was put there by a Tornado that ripped through). Also even though they're small kender can fight, and fight well, and they're tricky little punks, incredibly lucky and NEVER EVER give up. You might talk about Dwarven Strongholds that never fall, you might believe that elves would fight to the last... but kender have no fear. They WILL fight to the end. The most successful Kender Gennocide was commited by Malys the Red Dragon Overlord. Her foul magic somehow broke the kender spirit and made the kender of Kendermore know fear. Thus giving rise to the Afflicted Kender (they don't have the fear immunity) still they held out for months against an army of Ogre, and finally manages to evacuate the 'civilians' through underground tunnels while many kender stayed behind knowning they'd die as they tore down their own wall luring the ogre into their city which they turned into a giant death trap. Most of the kender survived, the orge were killed to the last. Most peoples perceptions of kender are colored by terrible roleplaying and misunderstood stereotypes, I like the Dragonlance setting, and yeah, I like kender. Properly played they should be an asset to any group. The problem is that it's an EASILY abused concept. And they've gotten a bad name. You shouldn't cringe if a DM allows kender, however if a DM allows a terrible role player to play a kender... then there's trouble for everyone.
Palin the Wizard 12-01-04, 12:19 PM	Defcon4, you try explain ownership to someone who cannot imagine the term. No matter how intelligent they are, it's not a certain fact they'll understand. And Kenders aren't noted for their perception skills... in fact, they tend to have a mid-to-low Wisdom.
Palin the Wizard 12-01-04, 12:21 PM	First off, plural of kender is kender. "There are about twenty kender over there" stop writing kenders. Thank you. Correct. :embarrass It's a word in my own language as well, which is why I tend to write 'kenders' instead of 'kender', I suppose.
Nived 12-01-04, 12:37 PM	Really? That's interesting. Anyway I since we're discussing kender we might as well talk about their actual 3.5 stats. Which since Wizards decided to post on their website here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030713a) (scroll down) we can actually discuss openly citing specifics. +2 Dex -2 Str -2 Wis... this does not a 'retard' make. On average more foolish? Yes. Retarded? No. Now the subject of whether a kender can be made to break his habit of borrowing has been brought up. I personally look at it this way. A kender can indeed from being yelled at by friends and so forth learn that borrowing is wrong, just like I know that sticking the pen from the grocery store in my pocket after signing my receit is wrong. I've even tried to break my habit of doing that, still sometimes that pen finds its way into my pocket. I believe if I tried harder I could break myself of the habit completely. I supose it would be possible for a kender too, harder, but possible. However when you have something on your mind or stress... sometimes that pen will still somehow manage to find its way into a pocket. Just my two cents on the matter.
Defcon4 12-01-04, 12:48 PM	Yeah, i kind of find "can't imagine" hard to believe. If one isn't stupid, i find it hard for one to lack the capacity to understand concepts. Wisdom is the application of knowledge. As Kender don't have any negatives to wisdom, i don't see how they can have a problem in understanding. Unless it's a racial psychosis, it's purely cultural. In which case a Kender can learn about others. A Kender not being totally obtuse and/or disrespectfull would certainly live by the expression "when in Rome"...or reap the consequences.
Nived 12-01-04, 12:51 PM	As Kender don't have any negatives to wisdom, i don't see how they can have a problem in understanding. Look up and read again, -2 Wisdom. Meaning the AVERAGE NON-ADVENTURING kender has around an 8 for wisdom. Foolish. Of course most kender found in an adventuing party are those 'above average' types.
Grox 12-01-04, 08:10 PM	Apparently you haven't read the thread. It is has been quite clearly established (by Thorak especially) that the kender race is not the problem. In fact, they work excellently in a party. The problem is immature or abusive players. While I confess I haven't read this particular thread in its entirety, I have read this same argument over and over again. I strongly feel that a D&D world needs to be internally consistent. My characters, regardless of alignment, generally wish to bring about change of some sort in the world they inhabit; and when I DM, I attempt to give that opportunity to my players. That requires a consistent world. Physically weak creatures that invariably anger EVERYONE in the game world on a constant basis simply don't work. If you want to play in campaign where they exist despite this, and want to simply revel in the fact that your game world doesn't make sense, or because you think it's funny, of course that's your right . . . but in the end there is a certain line of maturity that the campaign will be unable to cross. Make the sacrifice if you think it's worth it, but you should recognize what you're getting into: a "beer and pretzels" campaign, not a lot of intellectual challenge, not a lot of drama. I admit that few actually take the kender's inability to understand "possession" to its logical conclusion, which seems to have been followed in the original novels, wherein these creatures give away possessions as fast as they get them. I further admit that this feature would increase their survivability immeasurably. But in the end, kender are still basically depending on "good" forces to protect them from evil that they irritate just as much as the good guys, and who are accustomed to casually destroying enemies far stronger than the kender --- while insisting on a moral code that "good" can't tolerate. Theft is still regarded as a crime by the forces of goodness. Could you imagine a PC race that is supposed to be tolerated by good creatures everywhere that just "didn't understand" sexual consent, and went around committing rape all the time? Or one that "didn't understand" the value of life, and casually murdered --- and was still somehow regarded as playful and funny and harmless? "Oh, sorry Captain --- did our friend get out of hand and kill your lieutenant and rape his wife? AGAIN after the stern talking-to we gave him last week for doing the exact same thing in the last two towns we came through? Sorry, you'll have to forgive him, that's his nature." That's not one whit sillier than kender as they are usually played. And for what?! The same tired old joke over and over, that your stuff is missing and the kender took it? I guess if your sense of humor is flat enough that you never get tired of the same joke, but you could design a new race that just farts a lot and get the same humor value for a lot less trouble. It may have been funny a few times back in the 80s to hear that the kender had stolen something, but on the hundredth repetition it's awfully hard to care.
Demon Lightfoot 12-01-04, 08:23 PM	Wow; kleptomania = murder & rape. Why did I never see it before? Oh, wait, it's because that's a completely idiotic comparison.
Falkus 12-01-04, 09:30 PM	You shouldn't cringe if a DM allows kender, however if a DM allows a terrible role player to play a kender... then there's trouble for everyone. This statement should be simplified: If a DM allows a terrible roleplayer in the game perdio, then there's trouble for everyone. Theft is still regarded as a crime by the forces of goodness. Theft tends to be more chaotic than evil, especially the way Kender steal or borrow. It's circumstances that define the evility of theft, it's not like murder or rape. AFter all, take Robin Hood, the defiintion of a chaotic-good character, a bandit and a thief. But can you name any charactesr with a good alignment that frequently rape people or cold bloodly murder innocents?
Grox 12-01-04, 10:21 PM	Wow; kleptomania = murder & rape. Why did I never see it before? Oh, wait, it's because that's a completely idiotic comparison. Er, no, because you just made a COMPLETELY IDIOTIC INTERPRETATION. I didn't draw that comparison to talk about alignment considerations, or whether you might call a kender "evil". This isn't about alignment, it's about survivability of a race that is incapable of dominating or exterminating other races, and therefore must either withdraw from them, or find a way to coexist. Coexistence by a race that is GENETICALLY INCAPABLE of making such elementary value judgments is impossible. The value judgment that "stealing my stuff is bad" is common to both good and evil creatures, and if anything is far MORE universal than the murder/rape stuff. An evil overlord could well not care if your PC casually murdered or raped his peasantry, but would not be at all amused by your "cute" kender ripping him off.
Thorak 12-01-04, 10:36 PM	Demon Lightfoot was right. You equated murder and rape to pickpocketing with no intent to deprive. That's colouring the comparison just a wee little bit. Stealing isn't a crime of having something you shouldn't. It's a crime of depriving someone of something they have the rights to. If you copy something, it's not stealing to then have a copy if you haven't deprived someone of the original. (it may be copyright infringement, but that's different). And, in the D&D worlds, it's nigh impossible to convict a Kender for stealing. Because they will have a reason, like "I found it lying in the street", or "It fell off the shelf, so I grabbed it to keep it from breaking. I guess I just forgot to put it back.", and any cleric using a spell to determine truth will tell you that the Kender is innocent. Combine that with the again simple method of determining if the accused is Evil or not, and there is little to base a judgement of guilty on. Kender are arrested and thrown in jail overnight before being evicted the same way drunks are rounded up into the drunk tank; it's not that they're criminals, it's that it's safer for them and everyone else if they go away for a while. Kender are frustrating and often irritating. But that doesn't mean they would inspire others to violence against them. You'd just roll your eyes and sigh heavily, and wonder what God thought Kender would be a good idea. It's hard to blame them for anything, since they're genuinely sorry for any pain they caused and you know they don't mean any harm. So yes, it's annoying. But it's annoying the way a known kleptomaniac is; you know they're going to pick stuff up, so you just make sure you clean out their pockets as they go. If they don't mind, you don't mind. It's not their fault, and it's fairly evil and psychotic to think they should be killed for it. You know that guy in high school, the one nobody really liked but who always hung around anyway? The really annoying one who never got the hint? Kender are the racial equivalent of that guy. But I guess you prefer genocide of anyone who's different to letting people be who they are. Yeepers, I wish I were colouring the argument by saying that, but looking back over some of the answers, I'm really not. Scary, scary. I hope to God you people never get hands on guns.
Talin Lightfingers 12-01-04, 11:37 PM	I can see SOME of you are just downright malicious toward kender. :weep: However, there is a simple solution for your "problem" print up this aritcle and show it to this player that is annoying you. (he should just change his race to kender). hope it helps; The problem with kender players is they can be awfully annoying, especially when the player is new to kender roleplaying. For example, a new kender player will automatically assume that playing in character involves talking non-stop, annoying the Dungeon Master, and greeting any creature that could potentially harm the party. In short, some kender players are so annoying that the other players pray for a monster to roll a good old fashioned critical hit while attacking a kender. The point of today's essay is to explore several topics that will hone your kender playing skills. Just sit back and relax, it's fun for the whole family. Common Kender Myths Myth #1: Kender Should Always Run Up and Greet People or Creatures that Could Potentially Hurt the Party This is a very common occurrence with new players. A kender may spot a huge zombie lumbering towards the party. An inexperienced player might run up, shake its hand, and begin telling it a story. Usually, the monster attacks and the kender gets hurt. Now while it is true that kender are curious and often commit reckless acts, a kender can be cautious when he needs to be. A kender adventuring with a party will recognize that he could get himself or other party members killed, and would most likely react by warning the party and then taking reasonable action (such as shooting the bastard in the head with your hoopak or spying on the creature to gain information beneficial to the party). Myth #2: Kender Should Steal Everything in Sight Another common occurrence is a kender might embrace another character or an NPC and then ask the DM, "So what did I steal?" First off, the kender didn't steal anything. He borrowed. Second, there really is no sub-conscious stealing in D&D. You have to declare and roll a pick pocket check just like everyone else. Being a kender does not make you special in that manner. Also, some kender players will just pick up everything they find and "borrow" it. It's true that kender pick up things that interest them. They don't purposely empty an entire room (though its been known to happen). Another kender player made a fine suggestion on making sub-conscious "borrowing" work, and you're welcome to try it if you see fit. The DM took the pouch grab list and struck five items from it and replaced them with question marks. The DM would keep track of things the kender player "borrowed" without ever really thinking about it. These items could them resurface whem making a pouch grab provided the correct number was rolled. It made the game more interesting. Myth #3: A Kender Player Needs to Try Reckless Stunts Just because your party encounters a seemingly bottomless pit, there really is no need to find out. Sometimes, little kender stunts such as climbing on top the roof of an inn and then jumping off detract from game playing. It takes up time, it slows the momentum of the game, and it annoys the other players. If you'd like to do something interesting and useful, try crawling under tables and listen to people's conversations. It's fun and constructive. If you're going to be reckless, make sure you have a good reason to do it. As for what that good reason is, the kender never has to declare it. Another kender player has suggested passing notes to the DM so at least the DM knows what the kender is hoping to accomplish. The other players can sit back and possibly enjoy a humorous kender adventure that would take them by surprise. A DM I play with often physically leaves the room so he can confer with players, and that usually works as well. Myth #4: Kender Players Need to Talk Non-Stop to Simulate a Real Kender I applaud your zealousness, but it does get annoying. By talking non-stop to various people, you are once again wasting game time, and while you might have fun stopping every person you meet on the street and telling them about your Uncle Tasslehoff, you may find your friends planning D&D sessions and not telling you about them. Also, when asking questions, it's not funny when you imitate Mindy from "Animaniacs" and keep asking the question "Why?" until people snap. I feel the best method of acting kenderish at an event where many people are around is to inform the Dungeon Master "I'm going to look for people that especially interest me and speak with them." It's much simpler and it saves time. The DM will kindlylet you know if you learn anything useful. Sometimes you'll learn something cool, sometimes you get knocked flat on your butt by bodyguards who don't want you near their boss. Jerks. Myth #5: It Happened in a Margaret Weiss & Tracy Hickman Book! You Should Try It As Well Don't moo at the minotaurs. Also, you can try turning the undead with a spoon, but if it doesn't work don't be surprised. However, what you should try to do is be original. Even doing constructive things you read in a book can be dull because it's been done. Don't leech off Tasslehoff's heroics. Go be your own... err... kender. What it takes to play a kender I'll be honest. Some people just aren't made to play a kender. Here's a short list of things you need to be in order to play a kender. You have to be semi-mature. I know it's hard, especially when you're such a child like race, but immature players are more likely to pull off some of the foolish moves mentioned in the previous section. You need to be good at playing in character. If you have ever played a dwarven fighter, went into a tavern, and then refused all alcohol in fear of getting drunk (based on a true story!)...my friend, I apologize, but you're just plain awful at roleplaying. Don't ever play a kender. You need to be creative. If you encounter three goblins, you can't easily fight them off when you're a kender handler. You need to be creative, like taunting the bastards and leading them on a merry chase in which you can possibly separate them and take them one at a time. There really are a million ways to do things. Kender just pick the more interesting methods, and that's what you as a player have to do. Interacting with other players A kender instantly becomes attached to new friends, and often times the kender is completely loyal to the majority of the characters in your campaign setting. Very often, a kender will have a "best friend" in the party. For instance, Tasslehoff was rather tight with Flint and the two enjoyed a Dennis the Menace/Mr. Wilson type of relationship. If two party members begin to argue, the kender will be upset and probably won't take sides. In fact, the kender is likely to run away and cause trouble, so other players not involved in the dispute should probably keep an eye on the kender. This brings me to my next point. Other players must always keep an eye on the kender player. Even though I'm urging you to not get in much trouble while playing, you're still occasionally going to do something "out of curiosity." Also, sometimes the kender player is extremely immature and measures should be taken. If yourkender buddy decides to jump in a bottomless pit, it's in your best interests to stop him. However, in some instances, even the most mature of kender players are bound to get in trouble. For instance, while attending a dinner party in a duke's castle, a kender is likely to get bored and begin adventuring. A character sitting near the kender at the table should stop the kender from leaving in fear of what might happen. When in direct communication with another character, a kender will often times attempt to be as helpful as possible. Kender love being assigned tasks due to their adventerous nature and will carry them out unless they are of course otherwise distracted. However, a determined kender can overcome this. Kender also like to make fun of fellow characters in a friendly manner. For instance, if a room smells bad, a kender might comment that it smells almost as bad as a certain dwarven party member. Once again, restraint from other characters might be needed, but not only for the kender but also for the dwarf. Multiplicity An old joke says that the only thing louder than one cat stuck in a tree is two cats stuck in a tree. Keep this in mind when you're allowing multiple kender in one campaign. A Dungeon Master who allows one kender in his campaign is brave enough. Allowing two can work, but three or more is a ludicrous thought and while the campaign certainly would be interesting, I would advise against it. Most Imporantly, Be Nice to the DM The DM takes a big risk by allowing a kender in his campaign. A kender shakes things up and can easily cause the party to stray from the path in which the DM originally intended. Therefore, be nice to the guy. He's obviously either very brave or very stupid, but he's still a cool happening guy. Also, he reserves the right to have a rock fall on your character, so it really helps to behave yourself. Well there you have it folks. Playing a kender can be fun, but try to remember that there are other players who get annoyed when you act immature. I play kender characters all the time and I'm proud to say that even though when I first started playing I did a few things I told you not to do, I am now a mature kender player and keep the campaign enjoyable for other players. Best of luck to you, and may your trails be sunny and straight. Talin Lightfingers
Demon Lightfoot 12-02-04, 12:34 AM	But I like to moo at the minotaurs...
danielinthewolvesden 12-02-04, 04:28 AM	I will admit that killing the kender is not the correct first step. The correct first step is saying "Look, sorry, we don't want you traveling or adventuring with us. Now, first of all, we're going to shake you upside down until we get all our stuff back. And to show you there's no real hard feelings, here is a nice sweetmeat, and a few shiney interesting things, including this really cool treasure map. But we want to make things perfectly clear- Go away and stay away, because next time we'll simply have to kill you." Then OOC to the Player "No thank you, try something else- the party doesn't accept this PC". I don't undertsand why the "pro-kenders' think they have the right to foist their PC off on a party that doesn't want them. :banghead:
Thorak 12-02-04, 07:19 AM	We don't think we have a "right" to play a Kender. We think that everyone who's suggesting, at any point, death or harm to the Kender is a psychotic freak. Justice hasn't been that harsh, well, ever. Even under Islamic law, petty theft just loses you a hand. So no, I really can't understand why anyone would think they should be more harsh and extreme than the worst Islamic fundamentalists. And no, I'm not bashing Islam, I'm bashing their fundamentalists. I could do the same for any faith, Islam just has some nice harsh current examples. Kender, in a campaign world which contains them (because I agree; if you're not in Krynn, or an inclusive homebrew world, where did the Kender come from?), would simply not be treated with the vitriol you guys are spewing. they'd be irritating on some levels, but so are half-orcs, being big dumb crass brutes. And, frankly, not accepting a character because of an incidental part of their race is unfairly restricting your fellow PCs. It's like saying "No, you can't play a wizard, sorceror, or bard, because my character doesn't like arcane magic." That may be, but just because your character is a bigoted tool doesn't mean you, as a player, should be able to dictate what another player is playing. I'm not suggesting you can't roleplay your reaction. But I am saying that most of the reactions posted here would result in the PC being tried, and convicted, for murder, and likely executed. And, quite frankly, that kind of attitude should be more of a concern to the rest of the party than the Kender's light fingers.
Demon Lightfoot 12-02-04, 07:39 AM	Well, rats; Thorak beat me to it, and far more eloquently than I was inclined to be, to boot.
Grox 12-02-04, 08:25 AM	Stealing isn't a crime of having something you shouldn't. It's a crime of depriving someone of something they have the rights to. And, in the D&D worlds, it's nigh impossible to convict a Kender for stealing. Because they will have a reason, like "I found it lying in the street", or "It fell off the shelf, so I grabbed it to keep it from breaking. I guess I just forgot to put it back.", and any cleric using a spell to determine truth will tell you that the Kender is innocent. True, but quite irrelevant. According to most governments, monsters, and enemies in most D&D worlds, indeed most NPCs except for the exceedingly rare and rich and compassionate, the fact that I think you took something that belongs to me merits an axe in your head -- no "trial", no "conviction for stealing". Clerics are part of the power structure. Good ones are busy fighting monsters, or administering charity to the poor and downtrodden. Non-good ones are busy tyrannizing, raising undead, invading other countries, collecting taxes from the peasantry. All are busy proselytizing. Cities are disease-ridden pigsties, so NPC urban clerics have their hands full with casting sufficient cure disease spells to keep the place going --- good ones helping the poor out of empathy, non-good ones helping out their favorite courtiers and courtesans to stay well-connected. Clerics may go around casting zones of truth to get to the bottom of plots against the power structure (to see who's *really* behind the latest attempt on the King's life), but they certainly have better things to do than determine the sincerity of the intent of petty thieves, who simply need to be maimed or killed. They can't be bothered with playing defense attorney to a chronic thief who keeps being arrested week after week and plainly regards their efforts with the dismissive contempt that kender do. Don't you see what your premises require? A campaign setting where a solid MAJORITY of civilizations --- of ALL alignments, not just the good-aligned ones --- granting civil rights equal to or greater than those provided by our own constitution; painstaking, conscientious, and expensive enforcement and protection of these civil rights at every level, and a total absence of corruption or racism. It CAN be done at the expense of ruining the internal consistency of your campaign's entire political system --- hey, whatever floats your boat --- but it's a lot of work to repeat the same old joke a few hundred more times in the same same way everyone's heard it before. If your campaign is THAT starved for humor, couldn't the DM perhaps be bothered to maybe . . . oh, I don't know . . . actually think of something new? :( Thorak, none of your arguments change the fact that to most people, kender just aren't funny.
Palin the Wizard 12-02-04, 08:54 AM	Who tried to argue whether kender are funny or not? And your entire argument there is based solely on your view of what clerics are supposed to be doing. Zone of Truth is a 2nd level spell last time I checked--in other words, it's not that difficult to cast. ANY lawful-aligned city should employ a cleric to cast that spell. It's simply too useful. It significantly reduces the hassles of trial, as it asserts the truth right from the start. Besides, as long as the cases are similar to the previous ones, they won't even bother with the casting... They'll just throw the kender in jail.
ShadowDragon8685 12-02-04, 09:03 AM	It may be amusing the first time. It will not be amusing by the third time. My stuff is mine. His stuff is his, their stuff is theirs. If a Kender cannot be taught to respect this, he's not welcome in my party. I'm not getting hung for his actions. I'm not getting in trouble for his actions, and I most especially will not tolerate the little ******* 'borrowing' my stuff, especially when I need it. If he gets himself strung up, I'm not going to stop it the fifty-third or something time. He's jamming us up, and he's earned his fate. Oh, and yes - most societies in a D&D world *do* maim or kill thieves. Even if they get a Cleric to cast all the Truth spells, the fact that the Kender obviously does not know what stealing or property rights does not absolve him of the fact that he took what was someone else's. We have a parallel in our society. It's called the insanity plea. Even if you are so whacked up that you did not realize it was wrong to rape, torture and murder that fourteen year old girl, it does not mitigate the fact that you did, nor does it mitigate the fact that it was wrong. You will be locked up in an Insane asylum, most likely for the rest of your life. The same holds true for a Kender. Despite the fact that he does not know what property rights and theft are, do not mitigate the fact that he did. And no, "Kender don't steal, they borrow" is not an excuse. They stole. Whether or not they acknowledge or understand the fact is immaterial. They will be punished by all Non-Kender societies, usually by permanant incarceration, or exile with the threat of death if they return.
Defcon4 12-02-04, 09:58 AM	A player of mine asked about playing a Kender once. I told him no because i wanted to keep to the standard races. After reviewing this thread, if the opportunity for different characters comes up i'll allow it. I'll also tell the player NPCs will act exactly as i think normal people would act in any situation the Kender puts himself into. If the player isn't ridiculously self destructive (that is, if he doesn't play the Kender as clueless to circumstances and consequences), i may go as far as doing a "Murdock" on him. Every new adventure starts with the other players (the A-Team) breaking "Murdock" out of incarceration. I'll also have to remeber in a society with a race of Kleptomaniacs, there will be lots of establishments with "kender not allowed" posted out front. "check Kender at door." "kender will be searched."
Nived 12-02-04, 11:11 AM	I see a lot of "This is how D&D society works" comments and thus just shows ignorance on your part. Because we're not talking about generic D&D, Kender show up in none of the monster manuals or fiend folios or what not. KENDER ARE NOT CORE! They show up in Dragonlance, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting to be exact. We're talking about Kender, which means that in any sane frame of referance we're talking about Dragonlance (or homebrew they're noncannon everywhere else unless you include spelljammer). So lets talk about Dragonlance, Krynn. Human societies. Solmania. LG society ruled by the Knights of Solmania. They consider Kender a nuicance and often don't allow Kender in their cities (eviction on sight policy after a search of course). The Oath of the Knighthood is "My honor or my life." Honor, duty, protection of the weak. Kender are annoying little (choose your explative) but it's dishonorable killing such an opponant. Besides the cheif god of the Solamnics Paladine (pre-chaos war) has a soft spot for kender. Ergothian. Merchant society, seafarers. Share the island of Northern Ergoth with the kender capital Hylo. Thankfully there are mountains in between the kender and the humans. They're considered a nuisance but they tried once in the ancient past to drive the kender off their island and failed (remember you all say they're physically weak and should lose a fight +2 dex +1 AC (small size) makes them hard to kill). So they're tolerated if they stay on their side of the mountain range. Those that wander in are usually watched and of course have their pockets emptied often. Khur: Desert nomadic culture, think middle east. Many people would be quick to point out that this kind of culture harshly punishes criminals. What you're forgetting is that desert cultures all too often have strict codes of hospitality. In this case the latter wins out, kender pitied rather than objects of hatred... though they're encouraged not to hang around. Abanasia: (where Solace is) Here you have the typical jail them for awhile confiscate and release policies. Also the barbarian tribes of the plains have similar outlooks of the Khur nomads. Non-humans. Hill Dwarves: Doorknobs that can't be trusted. Dwarves are the most likely to box a kender's ears but again, killing is a bit extreme. Hill Dwarves will most often follow the customs of the cultures they're living around concerning kender. Mountain Dwarves: NO KENDER ALLOWED IN THORBARDIN! Elves: Both the Qualinesti and the Silvanesti tend to have their boarder gaurds turn kender away (getting them lost and heading firmly AWAY from elven lands). Elves however loathe to kill anything. Gnomes: Well they're tinker gnomes... which many people hate also... but exploding contraptions and curious light fingers tend to result in all consuming explosions. So there. in civalized lans on KRYNN. The world that Kender were invented for, they don't abstractly kill and there are the reasons why. Don't give me 'typical D&D' because kender are not typical D&D.
Thorak 12-02-04, 11:46 AM	So there. in civalized lans on KRYNN. The world that Kender were invented for, they don't abstractly kill and there are the reasons why. Don't give me 'typical D&D' because kender are not typical D&D. Thank you, Nived, for detailing exactly what I was saying more generally in my posts. Kender are considered annoyances on Krynn. If they tried to get away with what they took, they might be considered criminals. But more often than not, the guard just has to ask them to come along and empty their pockets, which they'll willingly do, at which point they'll take back the lifted items, lock the Kender up for the night, and then send them on their way, outside the city, the next morning. Besides, given the ridiculous availability in any large city of truth-revealing spells, they would be used in trials if there's any worry. Such as, say, the first few trials where the accused Kender clearly had the item in his possession, but claims he just forgot to give it back after it fell. Since the Kender seems nice, and his story might be plausible, and it would be a shame to incarcerate, kill, or maim, or what have you, a person who is truly innocent of any harm, after they realized that Kender are just that way, but won't have problems about giving back either, it would be hard for any Good society, or even Neutral, to justify those kinds of punishments. Oh, and Shadowdragon8685? That insanity plea? It's a plea. If it's accepted, the verdict is not guilty by reason of insanity. If someone is insane, they are not held responsible for their acts. They go to psychiatric evalutation and treatment, which often for their protection and that of others, is done in a secure facility. But if they are later determined to be sane, they are released. And without ever having been convicted of a felony, even if they brutally slaughtered 20 people in an insane rage. Of course, in those extreme situations, the plea is often denied because it is felt the person is too dangerous to ever release, but that doesn't change what the plea itself is and means. So, if you want to liken it to an insanity plea, go ahead. It argues our case for us; insane people aren't guilty of the crimes they're charged with, even if they did do them. It's the same kind of thing with self-defense; if you kill someone because they're shooting at you with a gun, you've still committed homicide. You're not convicted of murder because of your plea of self-defense. Which is why black-belt types can't use it; they can't claim they overreacted in self-defense because they're too highly trained to not be in control. It's not because their hands are 'deadly weapons'; if I shoot a guy with a gun in self-defense, that works too. It's not the deadliness of the weapon, it's the degree of control the one who committed homicide had over their actions. Or the control the Kender has.
XArchangelX 12-02-04, 12:09 PM	Wow; kleptomania = murder & rape. Why did I never see it before? Oh, wait, it's because that's a completely idiotic comparison. Actually, I think its quite clever. Its an exaggerated analogy that makes what I think the primary problem with the kender abundantly clear. Of course, kleptomania != murder & rape, however, kleptomania is bad, annoying, and turns an otherwise fun campaign into work. A race like the kender suck all the fun out of a campaign in a hurry, and while killing the kender may be extreme, getting rid of it would not be. If I were playing, I would ask the DM to let me make an attempt at teaching the Kender about the concept of ownership, sort of an opposed intelligence or wisdom check, and a few weeks in game to sit down and spend some quality time with the kender. Paladins and Clerics should consider it their moral duty to teach the ignorant. The kleptomania would be a cultural trait, not a racial trait. There is no genetic code for the concept of ownership, its something that is taught. Maybe, played perfectly, a kender wouldn't be a real problem, and a little tolerance on the part of the other players is not too much to ask in that circumstance. Unfortunately, finding a group is hard, finding a group everyone plays a race/class perfectly is a rare thing. Kender are just too easy for a bad gamer to abuse for his own amusement at the expense of a group that doesn't want to deal with the trauma of breaking up.
eudas 12-02-04, 12:23 PM	Allow me to summarize this thread: Kender, when roleplayed properly, are a fascinating opportunity for roleplay and can bring a lot to the table. However, while I wait for that 1 player out of a million who can play one without being an annoying git, ALL KENDER MUST DIE. This plea to please, for the love of god, end this thread has been brought to you by the letter 'e' and the number '1'. eudas
Falkus 12-02-04, 01:12 PM	There is no genetic code for the concept of ownership, its something that is taught. DnD is not reality. There is not always a scientific explanation for everything, due to the inclusion of magical and divine affects. It could very well be an inborn thing, thanks to magic, arcane or divine, involved in the creation of the Kender.
Eldermount 12-02-04, 01:38 PM	DnD is not reality. There is not always a scientific explanation for everything, due to the inclusion of magical and divine affects. It could very well be an inborn thing, thanks to magic, arcane or divine, involved in the creation of the Kender. Which is exactly what it is. An effect of exposure to the Greygem of Gargath, which is what created their race.
eudas 12-02-04, 01:44 PM	which does nothing to change the fact that it takes a person who really loves dealing with small children to enjoy having a kender in the party. eudas
Defcon4 12-02-04, 01:55 PM	Except this entire concept of not understanding ownership is full of holes from jump. If a Kender pays for food he understands that food is now his, If the Kender bought his clothing, weapons, etc. he understands he made a transaction. He traded money for items. The items belong to him. If in his culture, he would then loan and/or borrow those items freely amongst his friends and relatives, that's one thing. To say a Kender doesn't understand the concept of shop owners selling merchandise, merchandise which can't be "borrowed"; that's another thing altogether. There seems to be two lines of thought here and unfortunately in some peoples opinion, they both cross. The first line of thought is that Kender can't comprehend the concept of ownership. In my opinion that is bullpucky. It may not be a cultural concept, but their normal intelligence and -2 to wisdom wouldn't prevent one from comprehending ideals and ideas not of their culture. The second line of thinking is that Kender have racial kleptomania. They just have to "borrow" things, most times while people are not aware of the borrowing. Furthermore, Kender don't know what they are doing as they are doing it. The "hey, it must have fell and i picked it up...here" type of scenario. Fine. I can take that. The thing is this racial kleptomania will not absolve them of the consequences of their actions. Will a Kender get lighter sentences because he can't help it? Certainly. He'll also be banned from many a place, harrassed, and generally made to feel unwanted in a lot more places than he would be accepted with care and understanding. The married idea that a Kender is both mentally unable to grasp the specific idea of ownership and he has racial kleptomania and no short term memory when he "borrows" is crazy in my opinion. And all this culminates into the problem of a Kender within a group of compatriates. Within the confines of the first line of thinking, the Kender needs to be told that such and such items need to be kept with such and such character. Don't even explain the reasoning. It is the way it is. Lie if one has to, just as long as the Kender understands he can't touch said item. I'm certain the Kender with the hole in his mind can understand the word no. Within the confines of the second line of thinking, the Kender truly can't help himself. It's now totally a question of how good the characters can hide their personal stuff and their level of tolerance. As for the last line of thinking? The Kender belongs in his own country or in an institute. He'll be kicked out of his party, killed by someone he shouldn't have "borrowed" from, and/or thrown in a dungeon in short order.
kam_Islash 12-02-04, 01:56 PM	Insanity pleas are ridiculous. Its just a way for criminals to avoid taking repsonsibility for their actions and to avoid prison or death. The same is true for Kenders an dtheir kleptomania. I mean are we to make a "Not guilty by reason of being a Kender" plea every time one of those annoying boogers does something stupid? ///
Falkus 12-02-04, 02:08 PM	If a Kender pays for food he understands that food is now his Unless he sees somebody more hungry than he is, in which case most kender would happily hand the food over. To say a Kender doesn't understand the concept of shop owners selling merchandise, merchandise which can't be "borrowed"; that's another thing altogether. If I recall the novels correctly, to Kender, merchants and exchange is just a formalized method of two people giving objects to each other so they each wind up with something more interesting. Kender merchants will take nearly anything in exchange for their merchandise. He'll be kicked out of his party No they won't. Why? Because you'll never find a companion more loyal and fearless than a Kender. Say what you like about classes and races, the one partymember guaranteed to stick with the party through thick and thin is the Kender. He'll be with you when the metal meets the meat, and he'll never back down. The married idea that a Kender is both mentally unable to grasp the specific idea of ownership and he has racial kleptomania and no short term memory when he "borrows" is crazy in my opinion. I believe this was addressed earlier. Insanity pleas are ridiculous. Its just a way for criminals to avoid taking repsonsibility for their actions and to avoid prison or death. Let's analyze the flaws of this, shall we? First, insanity pleas are very rare, only about one percent of all trials actually have defendant pleading not guilty by reason of insanity. Second, they're not often succesful, only about a quarter of insanity pleas succeed. Only if you were genuinally insane at the time of the crime and it can be proved do you have a chance of getting a insanity plea to pass. Third, a person found not guilty by reason insanity often ends spending more time in a psyhciatric institution than he would have in jail, so it is not a method of avoiding prison. Fourth, people who are insane are not responsible for their actions.
Thorak 12-02-04, 02:25 PM	Insanity pleas are ridiculous. Its just a way for criminals to avoid taking repsonsibility for their actions and to avoid prison or death. The same is true for Kenders an dtheir kleptomania. I mean are we to make a "Not guilty by reason of being a Kender" plea every time one of those annoying boogers does something stupid? Falkus already covered the logical response to this. Thankfully, modern society is a lot more forgiving and kind than you are. Heck, medieval society was a lot more forgiving and kind than you are; insanity was worked into their systems too. And they believed in execution for stealing (though, in many cases, not for murder; property crime was a bigger deal than violence).
Defcon4 12-02-04, 02:28 PM	Unless he sees somebody more hungry than he is, in which case most kender would happily hand the food over. I give money and/or food to bums on the subway at least several times a month. It was mine to give. If I recall the novels correctly, to Kender, merchants and exchange is just a formalized method of two people giving objects to each other so they each wind up with something more interesting. Kender merchants will take nearly anything in exchange for their merchandise. 1) the important words here are KENDER MERCHANTS. Different culture, different rules. Kender do understand the word rule no? 2) They traded with each other to "wind up with something more interesting". That still sounds like bartering to me. They trade something for something. Could the Kender that traded with the Kender merchant destroy the the item he got, return and just take what he had given...along with anything else he saw that was intersting? I think not. No they won't. Why? Because you'll never find a companion more loyal and fearless than a Kender. Say what you like about classes and races, the one partymember guaranteed to stick with the party through thick and thin is the Kender. He'll be with you when the metal meets the meat, and he'll never back down. I had a friend that was incredibly anti-social. I could be sure when we hung out together i would wind up in an argument or a fight with other people at some point. This friend was loyal to a fault and would go the distance for me. I still had to let him go. I'm sorry, but everyone, EVERYONE short of mother Teresa has their breaking point. The "i'm not equiped to understand this one concept/kleptomaniac with short term memory" person will eventually get on the last nerve of his party from either what he did within the group or what trouble he brought to their doorstep.
danielinthewolvesden 12-02-04, 02:50 PM	Solmania. LG society ruled by the Knights of Solmania. They consider Kender a nuicance and often don't allow Kender in their cities (eviction on sight policy after a search of course). Ergothian. Merchant society, seafarers. Share the island of Northern Ergoth with the kender capital Hylo. Thankfully there are mountains in between the kender and the humans. . So they're tolerated if they stay on their side of the mountain range. Khur: Desert nomadic culture, think middle east. though they're encouraged not to hang around. Abanasia: (where Solace is) Here you have the typical jail them for awhile confiscate and release policies. Mountain Dwarves: NO KENDER ALLOWED IN THORBARDIN! Elves: Both the Qualinesti and the Silvanesti tend to have their boarder gaurds turn kender away So there. in civalized lans on KRYNN. The world that Kender were invented for, they don't abstractly kill and there are the reasons why. Don't give me 'typical D&D' because kender are not typical D&D. Yes, but look- nearlly all of them have said "No KENDER NEED APPLY- STAY OUT" and will remove them, using force if nessesary. Clearly if the kender objected to this, drew his weapons and put up a fight, he could thus be killed. Reluctantly, sure. But in general- no civilized lands in Kryn tolerate Kender walking around openly in their cities. Thus it is perfectly "in character" for a party to not allow a Kender to join it... and if the Kender refuses to "take NO for an answer", the party can & would make dire threats.
Dire Hamster 12-02-04, 03:01 PM	...what the hell is a "kender"???
eudas 12-02-04, 03:13 PM	try looking here: http://www.kencyclopedia.com/kender/KenderThings.cfm eudas
Thorak 12-02-04, 03:36 PM	I'm sorry, but everyone, EVERYONE short of mother Teresa has their breaking point. The "i'm not equiped to understand this one concept/kleptomaniac with short term memory" person will eventually get on the last nerve of his party from either what he did within the group or what trouble he brought to their doorstep. They don't understand that concept, but they can understand that you're a grumpy arse and have no sense of humor. At which point, they'll either leave you alone because you're boring and mean, or they'll torment you on purpose because you're an arse and deserve it. And nobody ever said the party has to accept the Kender. Sure, there are problems. It's like a Drow PC; do you really want to be known as the group which travels with one of that evil race? Do you really want villagers trying to lynch him because of his skin color? If not, tell the Drow to take a hike. If you do accept him, you're taking him on for better or for worse. Though, IMHO, it's fairly silly to tell another player that they can't play the character they want to because you, a player, disagree with it. Who the heck gave you that kind of power?
eudas 12-02-04, 03:42 PM	"Though, IMHO, it's fairly silly to tell another player that they can't play the character they want to because you, a player, disagree with it. Who the heck gave you that kind of power?" Me. eudas
Lincoln Hills 12-02-04, 04:35 PM	... I guess if your sense of humor is flat enough that you never get tired of the same joke, but you could design a new race that just farts a lot and get the same humor value for a lot less trouble... That's brilliant, Grox! FLATULITE There is general speculation that the flatulites are originally of mixed goblin and orc stock, following the argument that "nothing human" could smell like that. In truth, however, the flatulites are a dignified and solemn race, with an ancient and honorable culture based on standing upwind and refusing to eat certain foods (such as fish and beans.) * Medium-sized: A flatulite receives no benefits or penalties based on size. * Speed: A flatulite has a base speed of 30 feet, modified according to armor. * Ability Modifiers: +2 Con, -4 Cha. While flatulites are stoutly built and tend toward a slight racial obesity, they suffer from a remarkably poor reputation and generally have very low self-esteem. ...oh, I could go on, but by now the joke has worn thin. :smirk:
trentgrey 12-02-04, 05:28 PM	For the record, this arguement is pointless. People defending Kender are representing the 1% of gamers that play them correctly. The one for lynching/Banning Kender represent the 99% of gamers who've been the victim of bad gamers who use it a an excuse to rob the party blind. Thorak, and the others who defend these little buggers religously, I would gladly let you play a Kender in my game. Every one else.....go suck an egg!
Falkus 12-02-04, 05:55 PM	I give money and/or food to bums on the subway at least several times a month. It was mine to give. Yes, but would you do it if you'd just bought yourself a meal? An expensive one too? 1) the important words here are KENDER MERCHANTS. Different culture, different rules. Kender do understand the word rule no? Given that they don't understand the concepts of buy low and sell high, I'd say they have rather different view of the word than other races. I had a friend that was incredibly anti-social. I could be sure when we hung out together i would wind up in an argument or a fight with other people at some point. This friend was loyal to a fault and would go the distance for me. I still had to let him go. The most trouble Kender are going to put you through in is increased attention from local guards, and a few appologies while returning items that wound up in the Kender's pockets. I'm sorry, but everyone, EVERYONE short of mother Teresa has their breaking point. The "i'm not equiped to understand this one concept/kleptomaniac with short term memory" person will eventually get on the last nerve of his party from either what he did within the group or what trouble he brought to their doorstep.
fireangel37 12-02-04, 06:15 PM	Unless you're paying at a con, the truth of the matter is that the problem, at its core, isn't likely to be with the player at all. It's the DM. THe DM is amused by the kender's antics and can make them as bad or as mild as he wants them to be. The best way to handle this is, generally, to work through the DM. If it really, really bothers you, sit down and have an out of game talk with the DM and tell him that you're not having fun and it's because of constantly having to worry about what the kender is up to. Be reasonable about it. Be flexible with alternatives. Or you can make your attempts to get rid of the kender more amusing to the DM than keeping him around. That works, too. Though, if you really want to get the guy to play something else, you could always volunteer to run a few games and put up a "no kender" restriction in your game. Do something fun, like randomly assigning classes and races or something as an experiment. Let everyone have a chance to try something new, annoying kender player included.
UltimateReality 12-02-04, 08:19 PM	the problem, at its core, isn't likely to be with the player at all. It's the DM. THe DM is amused by the kender's antics and can make them as bad or as mild as he wants them to be. The best way to handle this is, generally, to work through the DM. Actually, I have done that. I honestly don't think it'll be much of a problem. The player with the kender and the DM have done okay so far. (Only one session, he only almost got us killed once :rolleyes: by forgetting to tell us he found a door before he opened it -- it had a monster behind it. And his character feels terrible about it.) The other reason I think it won't be a problem is that the player will likely get bored of a his character and want to try something new in a month. :) I like it when people play different things, rather than just the same old race/class combination or the closest variant they can get. From what I've seen here, I think I'll disallow kenders and drow in my game. Even if I find the uber-roleplayer, the concepts are just so cliche (to me, anyway) by this point that I wouldn't derive as much fun DMing a game world with them (and that includes as NPCs). However, this particular situation isn't my game world and, as I said, the player and DM haven't botched things terribly. ;) So far it's all cool, so I'm cool. I will point out the compulsive generosity thing to my DM though. He will definitely pass it on to the player.
Dragontooth 12-03-04, 02:26 AM	Yes a Kender will "Borrow" from the party members. (people playing a Kender correctly) will always give the item back. And as far as the Kender stealing the spell book. The spell book doesn't come to any use until the Wizard needs to prepare spells, or write spells in it. And since you can only prepare spells, or write spells in it when you rest. At which time the Wizard can get the spell book from the Kender that was guarding the spell book for him/her. And yes a Kender has to be played correctly. I'll agree with that.
Defcon4 12-03-04, 08:56 AM	They don't understand that concept, but they can understand that you're a grumpy arse and have no sense of humor. At which point, they'll either leave you alone because you're boring and mean, or they'll torment you on purpose because you're an arse and deserve it. Ah, so now we go here. My character (i'm just gonna assume you're talking about my possible character) doesn't like his things being pilfered thru and this makes him a grumpy arse? That's grand. And again with the "they don't understand that concept" nonsense. Kender are not mentally deficient. They don't have logic holes in their brains. Regardless, the burden is placed squarely on the shoulders of others to accept the actions of the Kender while the Kender can apparently do as he pleases. Angered because the Kender pocketed something precious to you that you allow no one to touch because it's like...personal? "you're a grumpy arse." More likely, the Kender is a self possessed disrespectful jerk who doesn't care that he's upsetting his friends. What a stand up guy. But i guess you seem to have found the solution. Anyone who doesn't want the Kender to pilfer your things just has to be a grumpy arse with no sense of humor. That apparently would cut thru the Kenders mental fugue.
Defcon4 12-03-04, 09:11 AM	Yes, but would you do it if you'd just bought yourself a meal? An expensive one too? I don't see how this in any way rebuts my point. The food would be his to give. It matters not he's less possesive of the food than i would be. Given that they don't understand the concepts of buy low and sell high, I'd say they have rather different view of the word than other races Which isn't disputed the least bit. What is disputed is the Kenders ability to learn the ways of other cultures. The Kender can view the world anyway he wants. Acknowledging that other cultures live differently and changing his ways when dealing with them is the issue. As kenders aren't stupid, i don't see why they couldn't do this. Kleptomania is one thing, not comprehending the differences between his culture and anothers is something else. The most trouble Kender are going to put you through in is increased attention from local guards, and a few appologies while returning items that wound up in the Kender's pockets. This is a ridiculously simplistic idea. Appologies fall on deaf ears all of the time. Especially when liquor and bad attitudes mix. Not to mention when dealing with bad people in general. And that's not even going into specifics about the authorities and the situation the Kender might wind up in.
kam_Islash 12-03-04, 11:55 AM	fine, in that case I'll go kill a hundred peiple and leasd insanity. It should be easy because I'm a very good actor. See my point? Also regardless of mental state ALL HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS! You kill a person you PAY FOR IT! ///
eudas 12-03-04, 12:32 PM	Not if you get away with it... :devil: eudas
Thorak 12-03-04, 01:33 PM	They don't understand that concept, but they can understand that you're a grumpy arse and have no sense of humor. At which point, they'll either leave you alone because you're boring and mean, or they'll torment you on purpose because you're an arse and deserve it. Ah, so now we go here. My character (i'm just gonna assume you're talking about my possible character) doesn't like his things being pilfered thru and this makes him a grumpy arse? That's grand. No, it's his prickish reaction to having his things innocently rifled through that makes him a grumpy arse. And again with the "they don't understand that concept" nonsense. Kender are not mentally deficient. They don't have logic holes in their brains. As has been pointed out, yes, they do. They have been magically affected, as a race. Regardless, the burden is placed squarely on the shoulders of others to accept the actions of the Kender while the Kender can apparently do as he pleases. Angered because the Kender pocketed something precious to you that you allow no one to touch because it's like...personal? "you're a grumpy arse." Did he give it back when you found it was gone? Sure. Stop being an arse, and learn that when there's a kender around, if you don't want something lifted, you better keep an eye on it. It obviously wasn't that precious to you if you left it somewhere it was easily taken, when a kender was hanging around. More likely, the Kender is a self possessed disrespectful jerk who doesn't care that he's upsetting his friends. What a stand up guy. But i guess you seem to have found the solution. Anyone who doesn't want the Kender to pilfer your things just has to be a grumpy arse with no sense of humor. That apparently would cut thru the Kenders mental fugue. I'm not claiming every person who plays a kender plays one right. I am, however, saying that most people who forbid Kenders on sight are being arses. Because, frankly, they are. Take responsibility for yourself, and stop blaming the Kender because you're too lazy to protect your own goods from casual pocket picking. Really, it's the equivalent of walking into a street bazaar with money hanging out of your pocket, and then being aghast that someone took it as you walked through. Frankly, Duh. fine, in that case I'll go kill a hundred peiple and leasd insanity. It should be easy because I'm a very good actor. See my point? Also regardless of mental state ALL HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS! You kill a person you PAY FOR IT! Psychiatrists are highly trained to pick out "very good actors" from the truly insane. And you need a psychiatrist to say you're insane for an insanity plea to work. So no, I don't see your point, except that you don't have a sweet clue what you're talking about. Since you clearly have no idea how insanity pleas work, or the reasons why there's been an insanity plea in law dating back over 1000 years. Again; I suggest you move to a fundamentalist Islamic country. One of the ones that follows the law so strictly they cut off your hand for stealing, and stone women to death because they let themselves get raped. You'll probably feel more at home there than here, since we've got 1000+ years of history stating that your views on this are idiotic.
Falkus 12-03-04, 01:54 PM	fine, in that case I'll go kill a hundred peiple and leasd insanity. It should be easy because I'm a very good actor. If you're crazy enough to think that you can convince a psychaitrist that you're really crazy, then you're crazier than I think you are. You wouldn't have a hope in hell of doing it. Besides, as I pointed out earlier, you'd most likely be confined to a psychiatric institution permanently. Also regardless of mental state ALL HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS! Do you even know what a mental illness is?
Grox 12-03-04, 09:46 PM	That's brilliant, Grox! FLATULITE Thanks . . . you know, I think I smell a new splatbook! :D
TLomon 12-06-04, 11:35 PM	Back when I gamemastered on a regular basis, I had a total of five players play kender (well, technically the fourth was half-kender, but I'll explain). Player 1: Horrible at playing kender. Exactly how it is described by the kender-bashers above. She ended up being booted from the table. (The player behind the kender was the problem imo) Player 2 (& 4): Kender was ok. There were no issues as described above. However, the person played it more like a halfling. The spirit of kender just wasn't there. Player 3: Amazing. Constantly impressed me with roleplaying ability. Played two different kender over the course of the campaign. I'll focus on what this person did right below. Player 5: Somewhere in between 2 and 3. What rules did we play by? We used the bag chart from the early Dragonlance Adventures hardcover. Kender bags have 100 slots, which are filled up randomly. (Keyword: Randomly) If the kender reaches into a random pocket, %dice will determine what they grab. Multiple kender in the same group combine bag charts. The complaints about players being ripped off by kleptos... never happened except for player 1. What did the kender "borrow"? Well, taking a look at the bag sheet, which the player religiously updated as needed. 1) A red feather 2-4) 3 shiny river rocks 5) A purple leaf 6) Yellow string, 1 foot in length 7) A stick figure drawing With a properly played kender, curiosity is the key. Another player's weapon? They know what a dagger is for. Why take it? But if that dagger was covered with jewels, it may be missing. However, the next day (during sunlight), the other player should spot the kender holding the dagger up to see the sparkles. The jeweled dagger would be returned as soon as it was asked for. The complaints I am reading here appear to be a combination of bad players and even worse gamemasters. The gamemaster sets the limits for what players can do in their campaign. When a player is abusive, and the gamemaster not only fails to prevent it, but encourages it, there is a problem. In one adventure, the players assaulted the abandoned tower of an archmage that was over run with nasties. The kender were overjoyed at the fantastic treasures the party found... even though the rest of the party were about to leave them behind concentrating on more important things like... coins... and weapons. Kender 1 took a trunk of clothing that was animated. The clothes would even have fights over who got to be worn that day. From that day forward, the kender was always a rainbow of bright colors. Kender 2 found a short sword that sung when unsheathed. Loudly. I believe it was opera music. Both players were very happy. The other players were also happy, because the kender considered those items as part of their share of the final haul. Those choices in roleplaying are what I feel make a good kender. Oh, one last part of my little rambling session here. Kender merchants did exist in my campaign as well. One (non-kender) player decided to rob one once, and took off with the cash box after causing a disturbance in the store. When he opened it in a back alley, he found a box filled with pebbles, feathers, string, etc. This human... went back to the store, and apologized. Stating the box somehow fell into his pack when he bumped into the counter.
UltimateReality 12-06-04, 11:56 PM	Quick update, new twist on the situation: so the kender is playing his character perfectly. And the other players are roleplaying their reactions perfectly -- that is, asking the kender politely to stay away from them, declining hugs, etc. Not threatening violence by any means, not calling him names or ostracizing or harassing him at all. They accept that some of their stuff will inevitably disappear, know they'll get it back, but still would rather not go through the hassle in the first place. But the player of the kender is upset by this. (!) I think perhaps the best part of this whole thing is when he was complaining about it (yes, actually complaining -- a rarity for him) about the prejudice his character was running into. They weren't threatening violence on him, verbally degrading him, or even making false assumptions about him based on race (which is more than he can muster for any ethnic group IRL... :nonono: ), just asking him firmly to stay away from them, and he was whining about this. Now what? The DM seems to think we may lose him and his gf over the issue. (As far as we can tell she's there just to spend time with him and try and get some form of attention from the guy. Taking a break from the kid is probably a plus too.) I don't think it'll get that drastic...unless he keeps foolishly whining, in which case we may just laugh him out. The worst I can see is him just not showing up to game anymore. (He's a fairly casual player anyway.) The DM obviously won't penalize us for acting as people who value their posessions do around a kender. Two of the party have skirted the whole issue by making characters with Vow of Poverty already. How do you explain to a prejudiced-in-real-life person that: a) he's not even running into extreme prejudice -- just rational requests based on his past behaviour and known knowledge about his background, and maybe some assumptions based on his culture/race, b) this isn't even close to the 1950s mentality he spills out RL about other people, and c) to QUIT WHINING ABOUT IT IF HE'S GOING TO PLAY THE DAMN KENDER! If he's going to give it, he better well be able to take it... :banghead:
Thorak 12-07-04, 12:16 AM	So, he's lifting stuff, and then he's getting angry because the other characters aren't letting him, or encouraging him? Got it; he's an idiot. News flash; the whole point of a role playing game is that you take on the role of a character. In their world. Where the other critters will react. This isn't a poorly-coded CRPG, where you can get caught stealing and have no effect on your character. That's why we have DMs; they (usually) are smarter than the computer, and will actually have NPCs that react properly to whatever you dream up. Yeesh. As firmly as I support (properly-played) Kender, I wouldn't game with this guy.
UltimateReality 12-07-04, 12:37 AM	So, he's lifting stuff, and then he's getting angry because the other characters aren't letting him, or encouraging him? Pretty much. He's not lifting anything important or valuable, as per the rules, but the players are still obviously a tad reluctant to get touchy feely with him. The astral deva was losing feathers and thought he was molting, but apparently the kender was starting a collection to make a pair of wings so he could fly too. Not sure if this is poorly or well RPed kender, so feel free to debate. :P (FWIW, the deva got retired as the DM disallowed Leadership due to party size and it was a cohort. Accompanying PC got retired too, and that player made a cleric with VOP who so far is doing okay considering he's usually the chronic problem player. It's a whole other post on its own, which I may just do tonight.) This isn't a poorly-coded CRPG, where you can get caught stealing and have no effect on your character. That's why we have DMs; they (usually) are smarter than the computer, and will actually have NPCs that react properly to whatever you dream up. This is why my DM is cool. He does this -- and warns you first. He even gets creative in response to player stupidity. I wouldn't game with this guy. May not be an issue, depending on his reaction and players' counter-reactions. Personally I'm not sure myself...the player IRL can be really fascinating and interesting...and then goes and wrecks it by having a stupid racist/sexist moment. It's kinda like, "wtf, I coulda sworn you had a brain in there..." Not my cup of tea, but normally he's tolerable. (Wow, I'm way too tolerant of intolerant people...) The DM, like I said, doesn't plan on penalizing the party for being rational. I don't know if the guy'll make a big enough stink over it that he'll leave. (May have to save face in front of his gf or smth like that. :rolleyes: )
TLomon 12-07-04, 12:58 AM	The astral deva was losing feathers and thought he was molting, but apparently the kender was starting a collection to make a pair of wings so he could fly too. Not sure if this is poorly or well RPed kender, so feel free to debate. This sounds like a well played kender to me.
bitnine 12-07-04, 01:27 AM	Heh. If you want to check how well a player is roleplaying a character who is supposed to have no concept of property, ask to see their pack and everything they have on them. Take anything that remotely looks interesting and pocket it, remarking that you'll hand it over if they need it. You needn't keep the things too long at all, just see how they react. A character who truly has no concept of individual property will react quite differently than a sociopathic kleptomaniac halfling.Though, IMHO, it's fairly silly to tell another player that they can't play the character they want to because you, a player, disagree with it. Who the heck gave you that kind of power?That's absolutely right. What should happen is that they are free to design and play any sort of character that they want. And then the rest of the party is free to roleplay their charactes accordingly and inform the first player that they won't be associating with or travelling with said character.Kender should be in jail. True, and most are. In fact it's usually where kender plan to stay the night. Many large towns do have an 'arrest on sight' policy with kender, where they're captured, their pouches are removed, and they are either jailed (untill the jailers sanity is at an end) or tossed out of town. This is just part of life for a kender, they roll with it.But in general- no civilized lands in Kryn tolerate Kender walking around openly in their cities. Thus it is perfectly "in character" for a party to not allow a Kender to join it... and if the Kender refuses to "take NO for an answer", the party can & would make dire threats.These points are right on the money. Kender, though not necessarily an unviable or even undesirable character choice, simply don't mesh in many areas and within many groups. Many adventuring parties simply wouldn't accept associating with a Kender member, and that's exactly what you should expect in a world with Kender. The other characters might not execute a kender on the spot, but they might simply leave them behind, ditch them, leave them with the local constable, or even knock them out and leave them somewhere safe (if they persist in hounding a party and following them into environs where they could get hurt). That is entirely consistent in what you should see in such a world, and it's certainly how any number of people in such realms would react. "Hey, man! You can't control what I roleplay! I get to choose whatever I want to play, and you need to deal with the fact that you can't dictate your approval to me! But I'm sure as hell going to dictate to you the way that you roleplay! You're going to adventure with my character, like it or not, no matter how out-of-character it is for you to agree with and accept travelling with a Kender. Because I'm a PC dammit! And that means that you can't get rid of me!" Seriously, telling that a player that you don't think that his concept will mesh with the group is not a bad thing at all. Checking for compatability and trying to make a character that works within a group is not a negative thing, and neither is the DM trying to encourage players in choosing PCs that work towards this end, even if it is by restricting certain things. Really, in all practicality (factoring in folk who "play things wrong"), I think that many people have found classes like the Frenzied Berserker to be less disruptive to the party than Kender. And as you wouldn't blink too much for a DM discluding the former from his players, particular fondness for either entry aside, there is a parallel there.
Thorak 12-07-04, 08:51 AM	This sounds like a well played kender to me. It does to me too. It's the player whining that the other characters are reacting to this, and not letting his character get away with it, that I find ridiculous. Not his kender-roleplaying. That's absolutely right. What should happen is that they are free to design and play any sort of character that they want. And then the rest of the party is free to roleplay their charactes accordingly and inform the first player that they won't be associating with or travelling with said character. Certainly. But I'd ask that the players at least give the Kender a chance, rather than just dismissing the possibility of the race at all. Seriously, telling that a player that you don't think that his concept will mesh with the group is not a bad thing at all. Checking for compatability and trying to make a character that works within a group is not a negative thing, and neither is the DM trying to encourage players in choosing PCs that work towards this end, even if it is by restricting certain things. Yeeeessss..... But generally it's best to wait and see if the character is compatible with the group, rather than declaring you don't think it will be merely because of the race the guy chose. I'd say, if your character hates Kender so much he refuses to travel with them for any reason, you're the one whose character isn't compatible. Really, in all practicality (factoring in folk who "play things wrong"), I think that many people have found classes like the Frenzied Berserker to be less disruptive to the party than Kender. And as you wouldn't blink too much for a DM discluding the former from his players, particular fondness for either entry aside, there is a parallel there. The difference is that the Frenzied Berserker is mechanically required, at some point when he inevitably fails a die roll, to try and kill party members. That's a whole lot different than petty theft where the items will be returned on request. It's like trying to compare murder and accidental shoplifting; in some states the death penalty is given for the former. It would be overkill to try and apply that to the guy who comes back into the store saying "Sorry, I forgot to pay for this...."
UltimateReality 12-07-04, 05:21 PM	Certainly. But I'd ask that the players at least give the Kender a chance, rather than just dismissing the possibility of the race at all. Well, the kender is quickly showing understanding of the concepts of personal property and personal wealth. His first action on seeing a room full of platinum last session was to say "I stuff it all into my kender bag". That earned him the Hold Person as I was honestly afraid it was a trap...it was laid out, coin by coin, row by row. Nothing else was in the room. I'm a cautious wizard. He also was trying to steal a belt or rope from the cleric of VOP, as he had nothing else to take from him. The DM has said that the kender now obviously knows what wealth, property, and stealing are, thus he is not rolling "unconscious steal checks" for him anymore. And he will not hesitate to bring the DM wrathbolt down if he gets any more disruptive. (Which I admittedly kinda want to see...I've only seen it a couple times before, and it's been OOG "talks" with the party, not GOD SMITETH THEE.) The kender's player I think may also be POed he can't use his char to bug the chronic problem player, who's the cleric with VOP. (These two have a history with each other. :rolleyes: ) Why do I think this? Because last session his kender chose to go up to the CPP's girlfriend and start poking her wizard char in the forehead (where she has a kiira). She took it fairly well: gave him a look, stepped away, and declined to get within 10 feet of him for the rest of the night.
MorbidThoughts 12-08-04, 01:54 AM	As a defense to the kender, i do believe they are mentally defiecent at the concept of ownership and possession because how many of you can mentally grasp the concept of sharing like the kender. its hard to picture a society where everything you have in your household was taken from your neighbors homes and the stuff you have now wont likely be there in a week. wouldnt it be hard to understand that you will never "own" anything even the cloths you have on your back or the sony walkman in your pocket Man, you guys are always trying to force the kenders into your way of thinking instead of trying to understand the kenders way of thinking