Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thuragrun 08-20-04, 11:51 AM	I am playing with the ONLY other D&D players I know. My character is a Half Orc Cleric of Kord. Somehow I roled a 22 STR, 14 DEX, 17 CON, 13 INT, 16 WIS, 15 CHA( legit rolls on 5d6, drop 2 lowest and reroll 1's, dm houseruled a +4 instead of +2 for half orcs long before I joined. ). I am the only character who has lived through all our sessions since I joined the group. I tend to be the best fighter in the group and the only healer. My gripes are as follows and I would love some input to as how to deal with the others in my group. 1. Our rogue thinks he should be a front line brawler. Then he whines when he charges in and does not even survive the first round of combat( He likes to charge bullettes and leave himself open for a full round attack, actually, he charges everything ). I have attemped to explain that this is not his role. He then whines when he cannot get a clear shot when using his bow. I try to explain that not everyone can be involved in every combat and be just as effective each time. After his fourth character, he still wants to be the typical chaotic stupid Rogue. 2. Same rogue steals from the party. Our system for distributing loot is that we see who would best benefit from certain objects. We then majority vote on those objects. Anything else left people just say they would like to have, we have few to no arguements on these items. 33% of all coin is set as a party fund for healing potions, to be distibuted by need. Remaining money goes to people who got less items then the others. Half the time the rogue finds anything, he states he will attempt to pocket the item or money without anyone seeing. He then gets mad when we vote to not give him things. I also have a tendency to beat his character up when I catch him stealing. His response was to try to back stab me during combat against the BBEG. He missed. I sundered his cherished magic shortsword. He got up and left. Hahaha, what fun. 3. A newbie fighter just cannot grasp AoOs. He gets himself seriously hurt all the time and whines. We even give him about 40% of the healing potions from the party fund and he refuses to use them. He wants me to expend all my healing spells to keep him up. I have explaind he needs to take the 5' step out of combat and use one( DM has a house rule about a potion belt, it holds 5 potions and they can be used as needed without fumbling about ). He states I should he healing him, I am a healer, thats my job. My character is the BEST brawler in the group and I fulfill that role. I will heal others who need it but I am not going to put myself at risk to heal if it is not the best tactic. 4. Our friggin sorcerer even thinks she is a frontline fighter. " I will cast true strike and charge on the next round!" WTF!!! She does it at least once per gaming session, almost always resulting in serious injury. 5. I am a cleric and the only healer. Others think I should expend all my spells as fast as possible just to heal them. I am a veteran cleric player and make the most of the class. While I do see myself as a healer, that is not my only role. How do I explain this. The DM doesnt even seem to see this. 6. DM doesnt know the rules. Sometimes he seems to come up with a ruling out of nowhere but is inconsistent when it comes to applying the ruling. He also favors a girl we play with( He has NO chanceoflanding her, so he thinks this will help. One night another player recieved a "favor" from her. The next session, said player recieved almost all attacks that session). He also runs a DMPC, never misses, never gets hit, always saves, you know the drill. He gets mad if anyone questions him. When I try to explain to him he is wrong on something(AoO usually) and try to open my DMG, he tells me I cannot look in the DMG during the game. I agree I shouldnt but when an important issue arises, come on! My problems really boil down to that I want to continue playing with these people but I think they are getting annoyed with me, and believe it or not, I am having fun. I have more D&D experience then all of them combined. I have even offered to DM, sticking with the current DM's house rules. The current DM loves to DM and will not give it up.
jnrhayz 08-20-04, 12:00 PM	hmmm... Well, I would suggest to the Rogue guy to try and play a Fighter and the fighter guy should try and play a rogue and the sorcerer should probably try for a combat/arcane spellcaster prestige class. Also, you should explain to them the usefullness of potions. If you are in combat you can see they are hurt, and you provide cover which allows them to take a potion. In this type of situation I would probably metagame and give people suggestions OoC until they started playing as a group better. If that annoyed the DM or other players I would probably just start playing for myself. If I catch the rogue stealing from the group he dies. Everyone charges, then I stay back and watch them die. I guess that would not solve your problem, but I have little tolerance from people who can't work together as your group seems to have a problem doing.
Arbitrary Aardvark 08-20-04, 12:11 PM	Originally posted by Thuragrun When I try to explain to him he is wrong on something(AoO usually) and try to open my DMG, he tells me I cannot look in the DMG during the game. I agree I shouldnt but when an important issue arises, come on! With the exception of magic item creation rules, there really aren't any rules explanations in the DMG. (OK, airborne movement, I suppose.) AoO are in the PhB
Kilsek of Sheverash 08-20-04, 12:13 PM	You're both having fun and you're frustrated? Um, that doesn't make much sense to me. But anyway, it sounds like everyone needs to read the PHB to me. Doesn't sound like a mature group at all. DM's rules and rulings are inconsistent. That alone is the example that the rest of the group will follow. You could ask simple questions like "Did you read AoO's? Read it again, man, you're killing us dancing all over the place! Would your fighter really put himself at risk that much, knowing he has to be a tank for us that sticks around? Come on!" Good luck - your situation is, well, pretty strange :)
Mahungee 08-20-04, 12:23 PM	Dude I used to have the exact same type of problems,,being that there's very few other RPGer's around where I live: my solution: internet Dnd, with more than one camp available it's much easier to bow out of a camp that just isn't doing it for you or else stick with one that isn't everything you hoped for because you have other games going, making it easier to look past the problems in any particular one. (I've found both methods to have equal good and bad points and couldn't imagine only playing rpg in one medium these days) (P.S. I'm starting a new group to run through Maure's castle soon,,hint hint LoL) :angel:
Thuragrun 08-20-04, 12:26 PM	Originally posted by Kilsek of Sheverash [B]You're both having fun and you're frustrated? Um, that doesn't make much sense to me. ________________________________________ __________ I know, sounds loopy, doesnt it? And yes, the situation is odd. [QUOTE]With the exception of magic item creation rules, there really aren't any rules explanations in the DMG. (OK, airborne movement, I suppose.) AoO are in the PhB Sorry, In those parentheses I meant to put in variants out of the DMG he uses but doesnt understand.
der_gogo 08-20-04, 12:32 PM	I think your players are also playing Everquest or other MMORPGs online. There the Fighter and Rogue go frontline with the cleric only healing. Explain to them that DnD is different to this. Mabye this will help a bit...
Thuragrun 08-20-04, 12:37 PM	Originally posted by der_gogo I think your players are also playing Everquest or other MMORPGs online. There the Fighter and Rogue go frontline with the cleric only healing. Explain to them that DnD is different to this. Mabye this will help a bit... No, thank god. That would make them even worse. MMORPG's, in my opinion, are the bane of real RPG's. Everquest turned a good friend from a superb RPer into the worst kind of hack and slasher.
Thorak 08-20-04, 01:32 PM	Originally posted by Thuragrun 1. Our rogue thinks he should be a front line brawler. Then he whines when he charges in and does not even survive the first round of combat( He likes to charge bullettes and leave himself open for a full round attack, actually, he charges everything ). I have attemped to explain that this is not his role. He then whines when he cannot get a clear shot when using his bow. I try to explain that not everyone can be involved in every combat and be just as effective each time. After his fourth character, he still wants to be the typical chaotic stupid Rogue. Suggest he try playing a Barbarian. Suggest it with a stick if necessary. 2. Same rogue steals from the party. Our system for distributing loot is that we see who would best benefit from certain objects. We then majority vote on those objects. Anything else left people just say they would like to have, we have few to no arguements on these items. 33% of all coin is set as a party fund for healing potions, to be distibuted by need. Remaining money goes to people who got less items then the others. Half the time the rogue finds anything, he states he will attempt to pocket the item or money without anyone seeing. He then gets mad when we vote to not give him things. I also have a tendency to beat his character up when I catch him stealing. His response was to try to back stab me during combat against the BBEG. He missed. I sundered his cherished magic shortsword. He got up and left. Hahaha, what fun. "Suggest" him a few more times with that stick. Party stealing is almost never a good idea, and he's either being a selfish tool, or an antisocial tool. He needs some "suggestions." 3. A newbie fighter just cannot grasp AoOs. He gets himself seriously hurt all the time and whines. We even give him about 40% of the healing potions from the party fund and he refuses to use them. He wants me to expend all my healing spells to keep him up. I have explaind he needs to take the 5' step out of combat and use one( DM has a house rule about a potion belt, it holds 5 potions and they can be used as needed without fumbling about ). He states I should he healing him, I am a healer, thats my job. My character is the BEST brawler in the group and I fulfill that role. I will heal others who need it but I am not going to put myself at risk to heal if it is not the best tactic. Heal him to the point where he's not bleeding to death. Then point at his potions and tell him to use those, your God's magic isn't meant to help those too ridiculous to help themselves. And if he doesn't get it, "suggest" he rethink it. 4. Our friggin sorcerer even thinks she is a frontline fighter. " I will cast true strike and charge on the next round!" WTF!!! She does it at least once per gaming session, almost always resulting in serious injury. Start making in-character dry witty commentary when she gets whacked. Your character rolls his eyes when she charges, saying "Oh God, not again. If I have to heal that sorceror one more time because she thinks she's a barbarian..." "Suggestion's" always an option, too. 5. I am a cleric and the only healer. Others think I should expend all my spells as fast as possible just to heal them. I am a veteran cleric player and make the most of the class. While I do see myself as a healer, that is not my only role. How do I explain this. The DM doesnt even seem to see this. Cast all your spells while fighting. Buff yourself up insanely before fights, crush the snot out of everything, and then shrug and use your one remaining Cure Light to help whoever's unconscious. Clerics are to healers as fighters are to bait. 6. DM doesnt know the rules. Sometimes he seems to come up with a ruling out of nowhere but is inconsistent when it comes to applying the ruling. He also favors a girl we play with( He has NO chanceoflanding her, so he thinks this will help. One night another player recieved a "favor" from her. The next session, said player recieved almost all attacks that session). He also runs a DMPC, never misses, never gets hit, always saves, you know the drill. He gets mad if anyone questions him. When I try to explain to him he is wrong on something(AoO usually) and try to open my DMG, he tells me I cannot look in the DMG during the game. I agree I shouldnt but when an important issue arises, come on! This is all the classic signs of a power-hungry, control freak, "bad" DM. He shows favoritism (to try and get a girl, even), he runs a DMPC he flagrantly cheats with (and probably for no good reason beyond being better than any PC), he can't handle disagreement, and he refuses to let people prove him wrong. He's a bad DM. Find a new one. DM yourself. If you don't, he's just going to go on acting like a 3 year old. My problems really boil down to that I want to continue playing with these people but I think they are getting annoyed with me, and believe it or not, I am having fun. I have more D&D experience then all of them combined. I have even offered to DM, sticking with the current DM's house rules. The current DM loves to DM and will not give it up. The current DM loves the power trip, and refuses to put himself in a position where someone else has the control. All those bits you mentioned earlier are classic signs of this. If nobody else in the group agrees, either leave the group or suck it up. My current DM is a 1st edition player who's still learning the rules, and often overrules the books for whatever he thinks is 'better'. I don't have a problem with it though, because he's fair. Your DM isn't being fair. A suggestion; ask if you can all start a new campaign. If the current DM wants to continue DMing, ask that he write down all of his houserules and give everyone a copy before they start. So he doesn't make new ones up on the fly to screw someone, but don't tell him that, tell him it's so everyone can know perfectly well what the differences are. Buy your own copy of the DMG, and if he tries to tell you not to look in your own book, tell him to stuff it and stop being a control freak. Or say "Yes, Mother" in a really sarcastic tone. You get my drift. When creating characters for the new campaign, since you know more about how the game works than anyone else, help them make their characters so they can do what they want to do. The rogue probably wants to be a barbarian. The fighter just needs to learn a bit about tactics. The sorceror probably would like being a Bard, or a Cleric, more than a Sorceror, because both are better suited to charging in occasionally while retaining casting power. And the next time any PC steals from you or tries to kill you, kill them. Frontier justice. Works best as the Cleric, because if you're the only one, you can refuse to Raise him. And let everyone know that crap like that isn't acceptable. Those should help everyone have a bit more fun, while mitigating the DM's overbearing actions. The DM is not God. The DM is the referee and narrator. That's it.
Kilsek of Sheverash 08-20-04, 01:35 PM	Originally posted by Mahungee Dude I used to have the exact same type of problems,,being that there's very few other RPGer's around where I live: my solution: internet Dnd Try the D&D Forums' own Real Adventures play-by-post games if you're down. I just did a few days ago, just got in a game :) It's true it's easier to find a better fit to your style with PbP or PbEM games. Of course, there's advantages and disadvantages to online gaming like this too (pace is slow, it's not "live," etc.). Still a great format though if you love D&D! http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=222737
Mahungee 08-20-04, 02:36 PM	10: begin some-what off topic interlude Lol: akkk Pbp and Pbem :P actully Pbem is cool but like the man above says is ubbber slow I was getting at real-time Dnd over the net with either Openrpg or webprg (open being my preferred program) basicly it's chat but with dice rolling tools, and a realtime battle mat,,truth be told I actully preferr DMing this way cause my character acting is not so good but my writting is :D 20: end some-what off topic interlude
Lincoln Hills 08-20-04, 07:45 PM	Hey, you gotta sit at the table, why not suggest to the DM that he grant the PCs' next level according to what they're PLAYING rather than what THEY want for their next level? He likes to yank you all anyway, so you may as well enjoy it. ;) Rogue: "Wha - Rogue 6/Fighter 1? Fighter 1? That won't help me qualify for Dungeon Delver!" DM: "Whaaaat? I figured you were 'training' to be a fighter with all this front-line stuff." Sorceress: "And what's with this 'Barbarian 1'? Now all my spells are crippled!" DM: "Well, I assumed you were making the most of 3rd Edition's multi-classing flexibility." (But watch out!) Cleric: "Wh - hey, how come _I_ got a level of Commoner?" DM: "Because I don't like you. HA! HA! HAAAA! HA!"
Remnant 08-20-04, 11:47 PM	Ug... the rogue sounds annoying as hell. I don't suppose he's topped this off by acting like an unstoppable ninja warrior or something? Cause that would about do it. Remind him that this is not Diablo II and all classes are not designed to blast the ever-loving-crap out of everything. Same thing with the soceress. Of course, there, I would try and show the mathmatical probablility of doing way more damage with spells. AoO's can be a little tricky at first, and the first time you get iterative attacks, it can be really tempting to go toe-to-toe just to take advantage of them. The fighter just needs some real tactial lessons on how not to die. As for the stealing... tell him I hate him. That won't do anything, but tell him anyway. Little idiot. Kill his character if you can prove it in game, since he's obviously acting against the party. Then take all his stuff and redistribute it among the party.
trapspringer 08-21-04, 11:22 AM	On of my players has a hot sister. I have already warned everyone (except that player) that if he hooks me up with here, he's gunna gain some bonuse levels, and some bonus equipment... Seriously, the best solution here is to start your own campaign. Your DM sounds like an idiot, and your players will not learn how to play under an idiot DM. I was in similar circumstances, but after I started my campiagn, everyone 'magically' figured it out.
krichaiushii 08-21-04, 11:09 PM	I second trapspringer's comment: volunteer to DM a campaign or at least a few sessions - if only an involved dungeon crawl. Inform the players that death can happen to foolish adventurers (those who don't think nor run away) and roll as many dice in the open as possible - keeping certain skill checks hidden to increase suspense. Properly use all the rules that are major problems for the current DM and feature NPC opponents that function appropriate to their classes. Specifically Rogues tumbling, hitting, and running; sorcerers hanging back and blasting (or True Striking and firing ranged weapons - funny with a high-strength giant sorcerer and rocks/spears); all intelligent opponents making use of the 5' step; etc. Run a series of DM NPCs - the backup sorts that either die or go off on their own business after a session or two. Low wisdom fighters and rogues are my preferred mouthpieces. You might consider teaching them the importance of a tactical retreat. The aforementioned NPCs make good targets for TPK critters' first attacks - killing these guys might let the PCs escape with their lives. It will probably take a few TPKs til they get it, though. Perhaps if your fellow players see the effectiveness of such things used against them, they MIGHT get the hint and graduate to competent players.
crazysamaritan 08-21-04, 11:25 PM	First, I suggest working over one person at a time. Second, Give us a little more information on your Cleric... I have several ideas, but they mostly rely on knowledge of your diety, position in the church, and other ramifications of your class. Skills would help. :smirk:
KittenWarrior 08-22-04, 07:25 PM	Originally posted by Thuragrun 2. Same rogue steals from the party. Our system for distributing loot is that we see who would best benefit from certain objects. We then majority vote on those objects. Anything else left people just say they would like to have, we have few to no arguements on these items. 33% of all coin is set as a party fund for healing potions, to be distibuted by need. Remaining money goes to people who got less items then the others. Half the time the rogue finds anything, he states he will attempt to pocket the item or money without anyone seeing. He then gets mad when we vote to not give him things. I also have a tendency to beat his character up when I catch him stealing. His response was to try to back stab me during combat against the BBEG. He missed. I sundered his cherished magic shortsword. He got up and left. Hahaha, what fun. What's wrong with rogues acting a little, well, roguish? In our group I'm currently playing a Ftr/Rog who occasioanlly pockets some coins or a gem, and I know (OOC) other characters are doing it too.. As soon as one of us finds out IC there'll be fun roleplaying to do.. Of course the group has to be able to handle this kind of behaviour, but it can be a great roleplaying tool if you do.6. DM doesnt know the rules. Sometimes he seems to come up with a ruling out of nowhere but is inconsistent when it comes to applying the ruling. He also favors a girl we play with( He has NO chanceoflanding her, so he thinks this will help. One night another player recieved a "favor" from her. The next session, said player recieved almost all attacks that session). He also runs a DMPC, never misses, never gets hit, always saves, you know the drill. He gets mad if anyone questions him. When I try to explain to him he is wrong on something(AoO usually) and try to open my DMG, he tells me I cannot look in the DMG during the game. I agree I shouldnt but when an important issue arises, come on! Well it's kinda hard to judge the DM without actually having been there, but it is possible that the NPC just got very lucky rolls. Or maybe you didn't know everything about him, that way an NPC can seem quite invincible.. Example (from a 2nd ed campaign I played in): We were fighting a wizard. Did heaps of damage (in the 100s, literally) but he didn't seem phased at all.. until we found out he had actually cast Mislead and was flying over our heads all the time while we were busy fighting off his minions and wasting a lot of arrows on the illusion.. Example 2, from a 3rd ed adventure I ran recently: The party is fighting a wizard (again). They can't seem to hit him at all (which I delight in telling them about :D ) At a certain point they're really suspicious of me fumbling the dice.. However, with a base AC of 21, and haste, displacement and mirror image cast it's hardly a miracle they can't touch him (and sure enough, as son as most of his protections winked out they dropped him pretty quick..) As I said, I don't know whether your DM was being fair, but I always assume the best first.. Just my two cents.. you've had plenty of advice on handling the situation already, and I don't really have anything to add there.. Cheers, KW