Getting Offered a Template - Need Advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Getting Offered a Template - Need Advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BigJohn42
07-06-07, 10:17 AM In my current game (D&D/SW Hybrid), two of the other players have become infected with lycanthropy, and have decided to accept the LA and become full Werewolves (as opposed to questing to find a remove curse).

Because this will throw off game balance within the party, my DM has decided to adjust everyone else up as well. He's offering to allow adding of templates to players (subject to DM approval, of course).

So here's my quandry: I basically have two levels to spend. According to preliminary talks, each of these methods seemed to be acceptable:
- Advancing my classes
- Finding a suitable template to retroactively add to my character (in theory, it should be an acquired template, but I think he'll be willing to play loose with that rule a bit)
- Come up with a couple LA worth of extra feats
- For those who know what Roger Zelazny's AMBER series is, there was also talk of getting a couple LA worth of abilities from that setting (strictly homebrewed stuff).

My character is an Elven Wiz/Sorc/UM. I also plan on dipping into War Weaver for extra party-buffing goodness.

Any suggestions?

**Please note, I'm cross-posting this to the Character Optimization boards**
Xaer
07-06-07, 10:27 AM Depends on what you want, I'd just go with class levels unless you see something you really like. Drop a note to him, though: While the level bump is nice, the game will balance itself out after a few more encounters.

Example: Bob is level 1, and gets lycanthropy. He now has a level adjustment of +2, making his ECL 3. However, his XP is still 0. Thus, he now needs 6000XP to gain a level, and he will gain XP at the rate of a level 3(Hence, as long as he's not lump summing the XP, and is giving it out according to individual levels, the party will catch up rather quickly)
BigJohn42
07-06-07, 10:45 AM I was thinking about adding the celestial template, as DR and SR are just really good things to have (not to mention resistances!) I understand that Celestial is an inherited template, but as I said, I think DM will be willing to play loose with that rule.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm

While I understand the desire for more levels, especially for a spellcaster, the possibility of getting to add a template (of choice) seems too good to not seriously consider.

Another idea that I had was eventually turning this character into a good-aligned lich (in my group, we see no reason why intelligent creatures have to have a specific alignment)... Only problem is that's +4 LA, which would just cause the same problem all over again.
DrMorganes
07-06-07, 11:03 AM Take the class levels. There's little any template has to offer that will give you the same raw power as two full levels in a pure casting class.
Drag0nUL
07-06-07, 11:13 AM I advise against templates/LA races for casters. Every level spent in LA/racial HD means a level you are not getting spells; and that's really bad for a spellcaster.
However, even if there is no mechanical reason to do so, if you find something that you like, feel free to use it; 2 levels are not such a huge gap in spellcasting; and I don't assume you play such an optimized game that those extra level of spells would be a life/death matter.
BigJohn42
07-06-07, 11:27 AM I don't assume you play such an optimized game that those extra level of spells would be a life/death matter.

Hardly! The two characters who are becoming werewolves are Jedi!
kainpendragon
07-06-07, 02:07 PM there a ruleing on getting stuff like this. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

these rules will keep your DM's game balanced. and not every one has to go take templetes.
BigJohn42
07-06-07, 02:52 PM there a ruleing on getting stuff like this. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

these rules will keep your DM's game balanced. and not every one has to go take templetes.

That's a good idea, one that I may mention to DM. He may be looking for a quick way to beef the party, though. We are nearing the end of a pretty large story arc.
Phrennzy
07-06-07, 03:17 PM Hardly! The two characters who are becoming werewolves are Jedi!

Werewolf Jedi.

:rofl: :crazy:
BigJohn42
07-06-07, 03:29 PM Werewolf Jedi.

:rofl: :crazy:

Yeah... I don't know exactly how that's going to work... crazed feral Jedi. Especially since the DM is a VERY big fan of SW, and is fairly strict with his interpretations of Light vs. Dark sides.

All I have to say about this is that my mage is buying extra silver arrows.
Kyaran
07-06-07, 09:47 PM Doesn't werewolf lycanthropy change your alignment to something that would be classified as Dark Side?

Also, I'd be very interested in seeing some sort of write-up of how the SW + D&D hybrid is being accomplished.

Aside from all that, I agree with those advocating the extra levels. That is, unless you want to post something more specific about the Amber abilities... I mean, crazy regeneration? Planeswalking at will? Dude.
Comus
07-06-07, 10:36 PM No template in the game is worth spellcasting levels. Especially when you've already lost a level or two from getting into UM.

Side question - What's your opinion of UM? I've been looking at it and it seems fun.
Allarian
07-07-07, 02:51 AM Speaking as someone who has played a templated character, it is in no way worth the level adjustment, your skills and saves are far below what they would normally be and for a primary caster you also lose spell levels, I don't know what the amber abilities do but a free bump in spell level should not be passed up lightly. That said, there are some times when a template is worth it like when you can somehow wish your way into the paragon template at epic levels, but otherwise a "template" should only be a race and then only when you get racial hitdice (or a totally awsome SLA like greater teleport at will).
BigJohn42
07-07-07, 12:14 PM Doesn't werewolf lycanthropy change your alignment to something that would be classified as Dark Side?
As I posted earlier, our group doesn't buy into the idea that "all <monster>s have to be <alignment>," unless there's a really good reason (such as being an outsider, or class related, such as a Paladin).
- All Vampires don't have to be evil
- All Liches don't have to be evil
- All Red Dragons don't have to be evil.

Sure, most of them may be that way, leading to the perception that they all are... but if that was the case, Drizzt would never have existed. Yes, it's going to be difficult to play a proper light-side Jedi while worrying about losing control to the "feral beast within," but that's why my character is going to start memorizing "hold monster" a few times.

Also, I'd be very interested in seeing some sort of write-up of how the SW + D&D hybrid is being accomplished.
The SW/D&D Hybrid is working rather well, from my perspective. If you want details, PM me, since I really don't want to derail this thread.

Aside from all that, I agree with those advocating the extra levels. That is, unless you want to post something more specific about the Amber abilities... I mean, crazy regeneration? Planeswalking at will? Dude.
It woudn't be crazy-powerful, especially considering that one of these characters, would have an insane LA (I've found a site that lists a "newbie" character as having an LA of 10, and it makes sense).

What I'd probably get is a bunch of extra spells per day (although not an increase in caster level), bonuses on my saves, and SR.... all of which makes a tempting package. I haven't talked specifics with DM yet, but he's almost as big of an Amber fan as he is SW.

Side question - What's your opinion of UM? I've been looking at it and it seems fun.
I gotta say that I'm really enjoying the class. As shown in the optimization boards, you can basically get 8-9 caster levels of sorcerer/warmage/whatever added to your wizard, for the cost of one wizard level and a feat (Practiced Sorcerer). I started this character wanting to play the definitive mage (since it was in a game with players running "definitive" Jedi). I can honestly say that, once I started UM levels, I have yet to run out of juice. As I add metamagic, this may change... but I'm loving this class.
Neutronium_Dragon
07-07-07, 12:37 PM > So here's my quandry: I basically have two levels to spend.

There may be a bigger quandry here: If they're infected werewolves, their ECL goes up by four, not two. They gain +2 LA, but each of their two animal form hit dice also counts as a level.
BugHunter
07-07-07, 12:47 PM This is for the OP you have two more levels to play with. When adding the lycanthropy template is a LA +2 but they also have to add the +2 HD of the base creature. Unless the DM said you get the template but not the HD of the base creature.

I would go with class levels since this would give you more spells to know and cast.
BigJohn42
07-07-07, 12:59 PM This is for the OP you have two more levels to play with. When adding the lycanthropy template is a LA +2 but they also have to add the +2 HD of the base creature. Unless the DM said you get the template but not the HD of the base creature.

I would go with class levels since this would give you more spells to know and cast.

Ooh! I hadn't realized that! Maybe I can talk him into Lichdom after all...
kainpendragon
07-09-07, 01:47 PM Ooh! I hadn't realized that! Maybe I can talk him into Lichdom after all...

the rules i showed you earlyer it not required to take the level hit dice part of the base creature if you don't want to. if you contracted it thru Curse. Looks of Savage Progressions on wizard main site and they give you the offical rules for more then just were wolfs and ghost. have fun
danielinthewolvesden
07-11-07, 01:45 AM No template in the game is worth spellcasting levels.
.

In a low point buy game, a template or race with only a LA of +1 can be acceptable for a spellcaster. But no more than that.

Necropolitain would be nice for Necromancy spelcasters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BigJohn42 07-06-07, 10:17 AM	In my current game (D&D/SW Hybrid), two of the other players have become infected with lycanthropy, and have decided to accept the LA and become full Werewolves (as opposed to questing to find a remove curse). Because this will throw off game balance within the party, my DM has decided to adjust everyone else up as well. He's offering to allow adding of templates to players (subject to DM approval, of course). So here's my quandry: I basically have two levels to spend. According to preliminary talks, each of these methods seemed to be acceptable: - Advancing my classes - Finding a suitable template to retroactively add to my character (in theory, it should be an acquired template, but I think he'll be willing to play loose with that rule a bit) - Come up with a couple LA worth of extra feats - For those who know what Roger Zelazny's AMBER series is, there was also talk of getting a couple LA worth of abilities from that setting (strictly homebrewed stuff). My character is an Elven Wiz/Sorc/UM. I also plan on dipping into War Weaver for extra party-buffing goodness. Any suggestions? Please note, I'm cross-posting this to the Character Optimization boards
Xaer 07-06-07, 10:27 AM	Depends on what you want, I'd just go with class levels unless you see something you really like. Drop a note to him, though: While the level bump is nice, the game will balance itself out after a few more encounters. Example: Bob is level 1, and gets lycanthropy. He now has a level adjustment of +2, making his ECL 3. However, his XP is still 0. Thus, he now needs 6000XP to gain a level, and he will gain XP at the rate of a level 3(Hence, as long as he's not lump summing the XP, and is giving it out according to individual levels, the party will catch up rather quickly)
BigJohn42 07-06-07, 10:45 AM	I was thinking about adding the celestial template, as DR and SR are just really good things to have (not to mention resistances!) I understand that Celestial is an inherited template, but as I said, I think DM will be willing to play loose with that rule. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm While I understand the desire for more levels, especially for a spellcaster, the possibility of getting to add a template (of choice) seems too good to not seriously consider. Another idea that I had was eventually turning this character into a good-aligned lich (in my group, we see no reason why intelligent creatures have to have a specific alignment)... Only problem is that's +4 LA, which would just cause the same problem all over again.
DrMorganes 07-06-07, 11:03 AM	Take the class levels. There's little any template has to offer that will give you the same raw power as two full levels in a pure casting class.
Drag0nUL 07-06-07, 11:13 AM	I advise against templates/LA races for casters. Every level spent in LA/racial HD means a level you are not getting spells; and that's really bad for a spellcaster. However, even if there is no mechanical reason to do so, if you find something that you like, feel free to use it; 2 levels are not such a huge gap in spellcasting; and I don't assume you play such an optimized game that those extra level of spells would be a life/death matter.
BigJohn42 07-06-07, 11:27 AM	I don't assume you play such an optimized game that those extra level of spells would be a life/death matter. Hardly! The two characters who are becoming werewolves are Jedi!
kainpendragon 07-06-07, 02:07 PM	there a ruleing on getting stuff like this. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a these rules will keep your DM's game balanced. and not every one has to go take templetes.
BigJohn42 07-06-07, 02:52 PM	there a ruleing on getting stuff like this. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a these rules will keep your DM's game balanced. and not every one has to go take templetes. That's a good idea, one that I may mention to DM. He may be looking for a quick way to beef the party, though. We are nearing the end of a pretty large story arc.
Phrennzy 07-06-07, 03:17 PM	Hardly! The two characters who are becoming werewolves are Jedi! Werewolf Jedi. :rofl: :crazy:
BigJohn42 07-06-07, 03:29 PM	Werewolf Jedi. :rofl: :crazy: Yeah... I don't know exactly how that's going to work... crazed feral Jedi. Especially since the DM is a VERY big fan of SW, and is fairly strict with his interpretations of Light vs. Dark sides. All I have to say about this is that my mage is buying extra silver arrows.
Kyaran 07-06-07, 09:47 PM	Doesn't werewolf lycanthropy change your alignment to something that would be classified as Dark Side? Also, I'd be very interested in seeing some sort of write-up of how the SW + D&D hybrid is being accomplished. Aside from all that, I agree with those advocating the extra levels. That is, unless you want to post something more specific about the Amber abilities... I mean, crazy regeneration? Planeswalking at will? Dude.
Comus 07-06-07, 10:36 PM	No template in the game is worth spellcasting levels. Especially when you've already lost a level or two from getting into UM. Side question - What's your opinion of UM? I've been looking at it and it seems fun.
Allarian 07-07-07, 02:51 AM	Speaking as someone who has played a templated character, it is in no way worth the level adjustment, your skills and saves are far below what they would normally be and for a primary caster you also lose spell levels, I don't know what the amber abilities do but a free bump in spell level should not be passed up lightly. That said, there are some times when a template is worth it like when you can somehow wish your way into the paragon template at epic levels, but otherwise a "template" should only be a race and then only when you get racial hitdice (or a totally awsome SLA like greater teleport at will).
BigJohn42 07-07-07, 12:14 PM	Doesn't werewolf lycanthropy change your alignment to something that would be classified as Dark Side? As I posted earlier, our group doesn't buy into the idea that "all <monster>s have to be <alignment>," unless there's a really good reason (such as being an outsider, or class related, such as a Paladin). - All Vampires don't have to be evil - All Liches don't have to be evil - All Red Dragons don't have to be evil. Sure, most of them may be that way, leading to the perception that they all are... but if that was the case, Drizzt would never have existed. Yes, it's going to be difficult to play a proper light-side Jedi while worrying about losing control to the "feral beast within," but that's why my character is going to start memorizing "hold monster" a few times. Also, I'd be very interested in seeing some sort of write-up of how the SW + D&D hybrid is being accomplished. The SW/D&D Hybrid is working rather well, from my perspective. If you want details, PM me, since I really don't want to derail this thread. Aside from all that, I agree with those advocating the extra levels. That is, unless you want to post something more specific about the Amber abilities... I mean, crazy regeneration? Planeswalking at will? Dude. It woudn't be crazy-powerful, especially considering that one of these characters, would have an insane LA (I've found a site that lists a "newbie" character as having an LA of 10, and it makes sense). What I'd probably get is a bunch of extra spells per day (although not an increase in caster level), bonuses on my saves, and SR.... all of which makes a tempting package. I haven't talked specifics with DM yet, but he's almost as big of an Amber fan as he is SW. Side question - What's your opinion of UM? I've been looking at it and it seems fun. I gotta say that I'm really enjoying the class. As shown in the optimization boards, you can basically get 8-9 caster levels of sorcerer/warmage/whatever added to your wizard, for the cost of one wizard level and a feat (Practiced Sorcerer). I started this character wanting to play the definitive mage (since it was in a game with players running "definitive" Jedi). I can honestly say that, once I started UM levels, I have yet to run out of juice. As I add metamagic, this may change... but I'm loving this class.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-07-07, 12:37 PM	> So here's my quandry: I basically have two levels to spend. There may be a bigger quandry here: If they're infected werewolves, their ECL goes up by four, not two. They gain +2 LA, but each of their two animal form hit dice also counts as a level.
BugHunter 07-07-07, 12:47 PM	This is for the OP you have two more levels to play with. When adding the lycanthropy template is a LA +2 but they also have to add the +2 HD of the base creature. Unless the DM said you get the template but not the HD of the base creature. I would go with class levels since this would give you more spells to know and cast.
BigJohn42 07-07-07, 12:59 PM	This is for the OP you have two more levels to play with. When adding the lycanthropy template is a LA +2 but they also have to add the +2 HD of the base creature. Unless the DM said you get the template but not the HD of the base creature. I would go with class levels since this would give you more spells to know and cast. Ooh! I hadn't realized that! Maybe I can talk him into Lichdom after all...
kainpendragon 07-09-07, 01:47 PM	Ooh! I hadn't realized that! Maybe I can talk him into Lichdom after all... the rules i showed you earlyer it not required to take the level hit dice part of the base creature if you don't want to. if you contracted it thru Curse. Looks of Savage Progressions on wizard main site and they give you the offical rules for more then just were wolfs and ghost. have fun
danielinthewolvesden 07-11-07, 01:45 AM	No template in the game is worth spellcasting levels. . In a low point buy game, a template or race with only a LA of +1 can be acceptable for a spellcaster. But no more than that. Necropolitain would be nice for Necromancy spelcasters.