Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Afarian 11-20-04, 09:21 PM	First off I'm not sure that I'll ACTUALLY do this but recently I've been contemplating ways for my PC (who is lvl 3 wiz/1 rogue) to get revenge on certain on characters in my party who have indirectly betrayed my pc. Sometimes it's just making jokes about killing off my character because he's "not important" since we also have a sorcerer who roleplay being a elven ***** (who's actually evil) very well. Basically, the instance my PC could consider betrayal is when he was unconcious and nobody did anything to save him from on oncoming explosion (caused by two creatures of opposing elements colliding with each other). It's not so much that nobody made even the slightest attempt to save my corpse but that some characters joked about using my corpse as a shield and other various jokes about me being useless. So basically there are 4 characters who my pc might want to give a taste of their own medecine. 1. The Sorceress (who unfortunately is probably pregnant with the main powerful NPC's devil-lovechild. 2. The Barbarian who released that second creature and caused the explosion in the first place. 3. The Psionic Warrior who decided to release the FIRST creature while I was still too close to the monster's point of entry and not close to any exits. 4. The Druid did try to bandage me and actually got me up to 0 hp before the explosion. So I probably wouldn't do anything to him but he was also the only one who could have actually grabbed my corpse and moved it out of the way. OF course upon reading the rules in further detail I found out I wasn't completely helpless and unconscious at 0 hp--I probably could have moved or at least made a reflex save. IN any case my main question is if you had a wizard PC who had a revenge agenda against another certain PC what skills,feats,spells or prestige classes do you think would be the best route to go
Ambli Ironcutter 11-21-04, 06:01 PM	Ah yes, revenge. A dish best served cold. Here's what I'd to for revenge on a party that left me for dead. Betray them, pure and simple. Sell them out to the highest bidder. Become their Judas. They will remember NOT to mess with you once they are knee-deep in it. Failing that, you could cast invisibility on yourself, and create the illusion of your corpse. Then, reveal yourself once they are utterly convinced that you are dead. Or you could just abandon them somewhere where your skills and abilities are needed to get them out.
Xarian 11-21-04, 08:00 PM	Revenge has no place in a cooperative multiplayer game.
Sucineri 11-21-04, 08:12 PM	Revenge has no place in a cooperative multiplayer game. Yeah yeah, whatever. Good that you have an opinion on the matter, but he is looking for actual answers for something that is happening..you can't have an evil character in a campaign and expect him to act like a paladin. And actually you are completely wrong about no place for it in a coop multiplayer game..look at Diablo 2..a lot of people join your team, hang out with you then out of nowhere change teams, use a waypoint to get to you then kill you and laugh. Same thing happens in Age of Empires 2 when you don't lock the teams..someone will switch teams, kill all their former partner's people then laugh. So don't give me this pure CRAP that it has no place because in actuality it really does..but it isn't a nice thing to have happen. And to the OP, sorry for jumping in without any help, but I just get really angry when people think their clean and friendly rainbowy happiness they call a world is the only way things exist.
Shard of Suzail 11-21-04, 08:55 PM	I think Xarian has a valid point. Online games such as age of empires are temporary one off wargames. D and D is a long term game, where interparty conflict is simply destructive and pointless. They kill you, you kill them. In the end, you may as well not play and should just forget about the adventure or the orcs. Far better just to fight it out from day one and declare one player "the winner". If you really want "revenge" then talk to the gm, say that you have been poorly treated and get the offenders kicked out of the group or their characters sanctioned/removed. Your aim should be to keep the group happy and cooperative rather than to cause further problems. If they keep killing you off, then ask your gm if your next character can be double the average party level. Then you can hang back and enjoy the fact that they cant mess with you. If they do, then slap them about. Far better for any balance to be through working with your gm. Taking in game revenge off your own back will just ruin the game.
Xarian 11-21-04, 09:03 PM	Don't give me the crap about 'well people do it in AoE and Diablo so it's okay in D&D' because it's just plain illogical. There's a big difference between computer games and D&D. If you don't realize that, then don't ask to be playing in any of MY games... You're not in a PvP game online. You're sitting at a table with other players, who just might be your friends. If you want to get revenge on NPCs, that's fine. But screwing over the other players/PCs in any significant way (ie more than just practical jokes) is the worst thing you can do to a game. Alignment, roleplaying, and everything else takes a backseat to getting along with the other players. Would you allow someone into your campaign who was playing a psychotic character who liked to kill other PCs in their sleep? I didn't think so. This is along the same lines. To the original poster - if you have a big problem with the other characters screwing your character over, have your character decide to quit the group and make a new guy. Let the DM run his revenge plot with your input, or ask permission to DM temporarily so you can run your guy as a villain. If you personally have a problem with it, then quit your gaming group.
Sucineri 11-21-04, 09:45 PM	Would you allow someone into your campaign who was playing a psychotic character who liked to kill other PCs in their sleep? I didn't think so. This is along the same lines. Yes I would..it's not against the rules, so I don't see why they shouldn't allowed to choose this option. But they would be made aware that other players may get upset at this option and may bring in characters who are relatives of the former characters to get revenge OR they will make new character whereas the attack in which they died wouldn't make a large effect on the new character. It sucks when it happens, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Sure, in a perfect world then I would agree with you..if the PHB or DMG said "It is against the rules for one PC to kill another PC" then fine, but it doesn't say that. There's a big difference between computer games and D&D. If you don't realize that, then don't ask to be playing in any of MY games... I fully realize what you are saying, but I know how to see something from both sides of the fence. You are applying what would be the equivalent of a house rule..meaning how it would best apply to YOUR campaign. And while I respect your decision, coming in and saying "this is the way it is" is wrong, because truthfully, "this is" NOT "the way it is".
BlueFlames 11-21-04, 11:27 PM	Alignment, roleplaying, and everything else takes a backseat to getting along with the other players. Players should always be aware that the actions of their characters don't necessarily represent real-world feelings toward other players. My most recent character has a habit of calling the party priestess a two-copper *****, but the player knows very well that I don't think he's a man-lady of the night. His character's lawful goody-two-shoes behavior irritates my character, but not me. My character is, in return, a pain in the arse for his character, but not him. If the actions of fictional characters start affecting real-world friendships, then there are some players that need to check their maturity levels. Furthermore, D&D is not a cooperative strategy game. It's a roleplaying game. That means that, while playing, you've got to think as your character would. Being left for dead and then nearly blown up would certainly cause a character to harbor some bad feelings, even if that character is the purest of paladins. Being told that your best use is as a human shield would likely be downright enraging. Afarian is taking these emotions into account when thinking of what his character should do. In a roleplaying game, roleplaying really shouldn't be taking a backseat to much of anything. As for exactly how to handle the situation, I'm not sure I would go for blowing up the rest of the party, but demonstrating rather directly how useful you can be, in order to sway their opinions and take them down a peg or two, would be my choice of action. As a third level Wizard, you've got access to some pretty fun tools in the first and second level spell lists. Here's a few ideas... 1) While riding along, toss off a Ray of Enfeeblement at the Barbarian's horse. Make some snide remark about how useful a warrior could possibly be if he/she can't stay on his/her own mount. 2) When someone gets tangled in a melee, hit him/her with a Reduce Person at an inopportune moment. "Oops... Meant to shrink the ogre... Sorry!" 3) Likewise, when a group of enemies has clustered around one of your party's tanks, drop a Glitterdust right in the middle of them. It's a Will save, as I recall, and there's a blinding effect. It will affect everything in the brawl, so you'll have an excuse later, if confronted about your reasoning, but you'll be able to laugh as you watch a fighter flail blindly. 4) When dealing with the Sorceress, use your rogue-iness. Steal stuff from her spell-component pouch when she isn't looking. Nick a magic ring, a wand, or her scroll case (if she keeps one) whilst she sleeps. Keep the stolen goods hidden and return them a couple nights later (unless she gets you really angry). Basically, the idea is to have fun with spells that the Sorceress isn't likely to have on her 'Spells Known' list, all while hindering the Sorceress' abilities. It proves your worth, irritates the hell out of the party in return for them mocking you, and in the end, garners you some respect without doing any lasting harm. You've got to remember that revenge is generally about delivering a message. Killing only works when the message is, "I want you to stop breathing for a few eternities." Your message is that you deserve respect, but people can't respect you or get the message that they're supposed to respect you if they're dead. When a Barbarian is three feet tall and can't even seem to get his horse to stand up, or a Sorceress finds out that her evocation-slinging days have been drawn to an abrupt close due to supply troubles, well, they'll get the point.
Afarian 11-22-04, 06:10 PM	Well thanks for the variety of responses here.. I appreciate all the advice First I should probably make it clear that I'm NOT ACTUALLY going to do anything too serious that would result in another character's death. For the sole reason that they probably will come back and try to return the favor again! But there are some other valid points that I want to point out 1. My character started out as Chaotic Good but do is now Lawful Evil BECAUSE... 2. An Evil Devil NPC that we started the game doing some quests for ressurected me on the condition that my character SPY for him and tell him about everything the party does! 3. I want to work my way to Neutral Evil because I want to be Arcane Trickster and you have to unlawful...I can't become anything but evil though 4. My PC wasn't outrightly KILLED by anyone--it's more the fact that nobody really made any attempt to save him and the sorceress is always referring to my mage as a useless idiot (and told people to use me as a shield) So basically it's the sorceress that my character would really want revenge even though a few other characters do either virtually nothing or release/pissoff monsters that end up killing members of the party (I can tell you guys more about that later) So essentially this is a case of how to roleplay a character who doesn't particularly get along with the Sorceress of the group for the above reasons and is Lawful Evil now.(I've always heard evil was the "fun" class to play because you are bound by less restrictions)! Other ways the soceress has ****** off my character 1. "What kind of stupid Mage doesn't speak Draconic? 2. "What kind of dumbass mage doesn't have Endure Elements? This was an incident in which she wanted me to cast Endure Elements on someone so they could jump across a bed of FIERY HOT coals that were probably at least 1000 F. I wish I would have remembered at the time that Endure Elements only protects you up to 140 f!! Then I could have actually had a counter! 3. "I'm going to move my character over here--oh no wait, that's too close to the mage, Ewww--I'm going the other way!" So basically you get my point! Also to make it more complicated NONE of the players or characters know I'm evil and my Dm wants me to keep it that way! I almost wanted to see what would happen if I left my character's ashes there for awhile and see if anyone actually tried to make any attempt to ressurect me. But my character was brought back by the DM before I could think of it!
Sucineri 11-22-04, 06:22 PM	So is it the player that is being an a** through his character..or is it actually the player playing in character? It sounds a little childish to me how things are happening. If stuff like that was happening in my game I would either kick the person out (if I were DM) or I would leave the game and swear to not come back unless that person was gone (then again the rest of the group doesn't seem to care either).
strontium 11-22-04, 11:55 PM	An Evil Devil NPC that we started the game doing some quests for ressurected me on the condition that my character SPY for him and tell him about everything the party does! Perfect! A way not only to get an ally to inflict revenge for you without you being stung for it, but also a way to do it that will let the DM know how you feel without having to have a "they're being mean to me" whining session. Get your Devil to take care of her for you, make sure he knows she's interfering with your spying duties and needs to be kept in check :devil:
legolizard 11-23-04, 12:34 AM	I new someone who wanted revenge. He spent 5 levels preparing for it. He had ****** of some rich currupt duke and was chased out of town. 5 assasins, the class, were sent after him. he killed every single one with poison and looted the posion on the assasins. he got a hold of a wand of fire balls level 10 and just supted up his character for five levels just to kill the duke. He made his character a bad *** and i pittied any fool who looked at him wrong, and he didn't take any *****. He ended up killing the duke and leaving nothing but a chared crater. Offcourse, the duke was already dead from the cocktail of posions he shot at him and his guards before he blew their remans back to Bataar. Did I mention his character was a bad***.
ZACKOLicious 11-23-04, 01:15 AM	ok first for the people that talking that revenge is bad let me tell you this, in our campaigns my group has had several people turn on the party, or just one of the party, but has never ended with regret or hard feelings. it was all done in character. we all laugh even usually. i mean take the most recent on. we were all on a quest for one of the characters so that he could achieve lichdom. well we end up encountering the fire giant that is way out of our league and he demanded a soul for pament. well my character, who being constuct, didnt like one of the party members and had recently started perging the world of flesh went up behind him bull rushed him. then proceded to crit with his dire pick and drop him to -7 in one hit. it was really rather amusing. everyone laughed. and my character is still in the game. as for the revenge, you got a lot of really good responses, but my favorite is using the spells make it look like an accidentuse grease see if you dm says it starts on fire then use burning hands its rather amusing really and that way you get them both
Afarian 11-24-04, 09:24 AM	Perfect! A way not only to get an ally to inflict revenge for you without you being stung for it, but also a way to do it that will let the DM know how you feel without having to have a "they're being mean to me" whining session. Get your Devil to take care of her for you, make sure he knows she's interfering with your spying duties and needs to be kept in check :devil: LOL, he's not exactly MY Devil--I'm more like his slave and I'm doing a favor for him. ALSO, the sorceress is A. Part devil (I guess she chose that as a way to get her inherent powers) B. Slept with the devil and might be carrying his seed or something C. Sent one of the Barbarians to protect her (probably why he doesn't do anything most of the time in battle) So yeah, I'm thinking this person is important to the NPC which is another reason I don't want to kill her or seriously hurt her. Anyways, though--I do like BlueFlames ideas the best although I still wouldn't mind having good Prestige Class\Feats that would say --Um Yeah, Don't Mess with Me!! Or maybe just being a Wizard is powerful enough (Although I'm going to try to go Arcane Trickster
ChaoticGod 11-25-04, 01:47 AM	Revenge is a full course meal. Not a snack. That Rogue level is dragging you down by the way. You can probably cast (3) 1st level and (2) 2nd level spells. This isn't enough. You need a Wand of Magic Missiles 1st level. Beg, borrow or steal one but make sure it has plenty of charges. If you can do this without any of the other PCs (or the players ) finding out, all the better. If you don't have Shield, Protection from Arrows and Levitate, learn them. Wait until the group is in a tough combat with a group of creatures that don't have ranged attacks. 1st ) Cast Levitate; Move upward 20 ft 2nd) Cast Protection from Arrows 3rd) Cast Shield, pull out the Wand 4) Start zapping whoever is being the most effective in combating the monsters. You need the monsters alive to finish off the sorceress who may have Shield herself. 5) Once all the PCs are down finish off the monsters. 6) Loot all the bodies, write it all on your character sheet 7) Hand the sheet to the DM and tell him to make your character his next BBEG 8) Make a Paladin if there is there is another party Or a more direct approach. Don't try this if one of them has Burning Hands or the like. Learn Expeditious Retreat, Summon Swarm and Web. Stay at the back of the party. 1 ) At an opportune moment catch them all in a Web, have the barbarian as near the middle as possible. 2 ) Summon Swarm of Bats to chew on their heads. Remember the distraction saves and the wounding damage. 3) You now have total cover from them and vice versa. While concentrating on the spell move to a different side of the Web and behind some sort of cover such as a tree or around a corner. 3) Keep concenrating, pull out the Wand just in case. Expeditious Retreat is in case you have to outrun a raging barbarian. Withdraw in ways that prevent charges. He'll still be bleeding and when he stops raging he may drop over disabled or even dead. Again after showing them just how useful a wizard can be, make a Paladin. They have to trust a paladin.
Wizguy 11-25-04, 11:28 AM	The key point that has been missed by all the posters here is as follows; When all this happened - his character was unconscious - and didn't hear all of the comments - or didn't know that no one moved the body. All he knows is that his party resurrected him or something after the fight in which he fell over. This is metagaming at it's finest........
Soepkom 11-26-04, 08:48 AM	The key point that has been missed by all the posters here is as follows; When all this happened - his character was unconscious - and didn't hear all of the comments - or didn't know that no one moved the body. All he knows is that his party resurrected him or something after the fight in which he fell over. This is metagaming at it's finest........ actually, I think he stated he was at 0 hp after the druid healed him, so he was conscious... (that was my first thought too ^^)
alecthemad 11-26-04, 12:50 PM	Yeah yeah, whatever. Good that you have an opinion on the matter, but he is looking for actual answers for something that is happening..you can't have an evil character in a campaign and expect him to act like a paladin. And actually you are completely wrong about no place for it in a coop multiplayer game..look at Diablo 2..a lot of people join your team, hang out with you then out of nowhere change teams, use a waypoint to get to you then kill you and laugh. Same thing happens in Age of Empires 2 when you don't lock the teams..someone will switch teams, kill all their former partner's people then laugh. So don't give me this pure CRAP that it has no place because in actuality it really does..but it isn't a nice thing to have happen. And to the OP, sorry for jumping in without any help, but I just get really angry when people think their clean and friendly rainbowy happiness they call a world is the only way things exist. The big difference between those computer game examples and playing DnD in a group is that you are usually playing with a group of friends or aquantainces. Griefing, similar to what you are talking about in the computer games is a good way to get kicked out of the gaming group. It is not even accepted in computer circles as people tend to avoid players with reputations for such actions. If your mindset (as a player) is to get revenge then you need to get out of that game. You obviously are not getting along with them very well. Now I could see the character having ill feelings toward the other characters but for the sake of continued gaming any acts of "revenge" should be minor, more along the lines of practical jokes than actual harm as that may engender more ill will and retaliation.
Xarian 11-26-04, 08:04 PM	it's a game, not a book. have you ever actually dmed a game where the characters were trying to kill each other? i have. it's not fun. is it fun when someone makes a character they actually enjoy and someone kills him for little to no reason (or a "roleplaying" reason that was made up by a player)? is it fun when two people take all the attention because they're doing something completely counterproductive to 'adventuring'? im guessing that most of the people here saying 'let him do what he wants!' have either never dmed, never played with other humans, or have never played with someone who thought that they should be completely free to 'roleplay' however they want to.
e-z0r 11-26-04, 08:54 PM	We actually had a very fun gaming session today where my wizard lvl 4 exacted some sweet, sweet revenge. Story: We're playing Sword Coast. We entered from over the mountain range in the south, traveling towards Baldur's Gate. My character had previously suffered a mental breakdown after nearly dying in a cave. Before reaching Nashkell we get in a random encounter in which highway robbers try to steal our wagon. Then some other monsters appear and challenge the robbers with us in between, left to fend for ourselves. So my wizard (in DM control) saves the day, but is struck unconscious before the battle ends. So what does the party do? Dump him in a ditch and keep traveling. My character wakes up a day afterwards face down in the gutter, with no traveling gear (just a longsword and a longbow), and begins trudging on, alone through the wilderness. Has to fight god knows what monsters, scared sh1tless (remember the breakdown), and eventually catches up with them ON FOOT in Beregost. A long ways off from where they dumped him. First thing he finds upon entering Beregost is the party's dwarven cleric being questioned by two guardsmen for illegal camping inside the city limits, also including one guardsman going missing earlier. So in comes my wizard (now finally under my control). "Excuse me, sirs. I don't think you'll be seeing your fellow anymore. Allow me to explain: My name is Edward DeLong, and this man here is Beards-Robert, a man wanted for dozens of murders down south in Amn. I've recently arrived from Athkatla myself, having traced him here on a mission from the Cowled Wizards. I'm actually after this man's brother, a dwarven wizard who has been giving the Cowled wizards plenty of trouble. If you'll just wrap him up and allow me to interrogate him for a few hours, and I'll try to dig it up from him." A couple of bluff throws and a couple of sense motive checks later I'm alone with the tied up dwarf in a prison cell. Can you say burning hands? Scare? Shocking grasp? Pointy objects? Yeeeees... Afterwards.. "I couldn't dig up the info I'd have liked. He's protecting his brother. You must send him to the Cowled Wizards in Athkatla. We have professional mind readers and interrogators there. Remember to keep him shackled and muffled at all times, as this man's clerical abilities and vicious nature could get your guards seriously hurt. I assure you, it's for the best this way." -- "Sir, he's a cleric?" -- "Yes. And who knows to what dark gods he prays to.." A couple more bluff/sense motive. And now the dwarf is chained and on his way to Athkatla. The bastard. Well, the party rogue had died in the same battle so I couldn't get revenge on him (nor would I, since he didn't really choose to dump me in the ditch), and the other dwarf's player hadn't been present then and nor was he present now, so I chose to sacrifice some role playing since it wouldn't really be fair for the other player to come back to the game and find his character has been either murdered or sold to slavery or something. But boy did revenge on the cleric feel good. Mind you, this is all in good fun, and you should never do stuff like this if the other player isn't in on the fun as well.
BlueFlames 11-27-04, 01:56 PM	you ever actually dmed a game where the characters were trying to kill each other? Have you read Afarian's posts? He doesn't want to kill the party; he wants to teach them a lesson and garner some respect from them. Heck, most of us are suggesting he not attempt to kill the party, just screw with them a bit. I'll also point out that you're again missing the line between player and character. Maybe you've played with and DM'ed nine year-old twirps that can't distinguish between gameplay and real life. Most of the D&D player base that I've encountered is capable of realizing that just because a character is angry with another character doesn't mean that the two corrisponding players are angry with each other. im guessing that most of the people here saying 'let him do what he wants!' have either never dmed, never played with other humans, or have never played with someone who thought that they should be completely free to 'roleplay' however they want to. Why shouldn't Afarian be allowed to roleplay how he wants to? The rest of the players certainly are roleplaying how they want to, mocking him and leaving his character to die. Why does it seem that you think he is being antisocial when it's the rest of his party constantly calling his character worthless and treating that character as such? They made a roleplaying decision to make his life a pain, so now he's making a roleplaying decision to teach them that actions have consequences. Now, if you're keeping up so far, let me remind you that Afarian stated he doesn't want to kill the rest of the party, since that really doesn't teach a lesson.
Afarian 11-29-04, 09:05 PM	Revenge is a full course meal. Not a snack. That Rogue level is dragging you down by the way. You can probably cast (3) 1st level and (2) 2nd level spells. This isn't enough. You need a Wand of Magic Missiles 1st level. Beg, borrow or steal one but make sure it has plenty of charges. If you can do this without any of the other PCs (or the players ) finding out, all the better. If you don't have Shield, Protection from Arrows and Levitate, learn them. Wait until the group is in a tough combat with a group of creatures that don't have ranged attacks. 1st ) Cast Levitate; Move upward 20 ft 2nd) Cast Protection from Arrows 3rd) Cast Shield, pull out the Wand 4) Start zapping whoever is being the most effective in combating the monsters. You need the monsters alive to finish off the sorceress who may have Shield herself. 5) Once all the PCs are down finish off the monsters. 6) Loot all the bodies, write it all on your character sheet 7) Hand the sheet to the DM and tell him to make your character his next BBEG 8) Make a Paladin if there is there is another party Or a more direct approach. Don't try this if one of them has Burning Hands or the like. Learn Expeditious Retreat, Summon Swarm and Web. Stay at the back of the party. 1 ) At an opportune moment catch them all in a Web, have the barbarian as near the middle as possible. 2 ) Summon Swarm of Bats to chew on their heads. Remember the distraction saves and the wounding damage. 3) You now have total cover from them and vice versa. While concentrating on the spell move to a different side of the Web and behind some sort of cover such as a tree or around a corner. 3) Keep concenrating, pull out the Wand just in case. Expeditious Retreat is in case you have to outrun a raging barbarian. Withdraw in ways that prevent charges. He'll still be bleeding and when he stops raging he may drop over disabled or even dead. Ummm, yeah but read my post--I DO NOT Want to kill them--just want to teach to respect me--and it's really only one or two other characters so getting revenge on the whole party intentionally is not what I want to do! But if I could do ACCIDENTELY do things that might make life slightly more painful or inconvienent for..well, the sorceress at least....I'm guessing it's going to have to wait though. Also in case you were wondering I'm taking a level of rogue because I want to go PrC Arcane Trickster--or at least I'm thinking about it.
monkeymadman 11-30-04, 02:36 PM	how bout using your roguish-ness? just search for traps, "ladies first!", and then "oops, guess that search check wasn't quite high enough!" or in her sleep, give her a big arcane-marked "kick me" sign, so everyone has a laugh when someone casts detect magic near her. or have your unseen servant poke her every 30 min at night for 3 hours, effectively ruining her beauty sleep (and the next day's spells). not quite as evil, but i'd still have fun w/ it :evillaugh:
Shard of Suzail 11-30-04, 05:11 PM	You must earn respect, young padawan. Through patience and by being helpful and selfless with regards to your party members, then they will soon come to respect you and like you. As i recall, from way back in this thread, one of the things that upset you was that the party didnt make major efforts to prevent your demise. No amount of making them suffer will make them want to help you in this circumstance when it next comes up. You are much better off making them like you and winning them over. Build a relationship, dont inflict further pain in the hopes that it will make one.