ghost paralyzed me- frustrated [Archive] - Wizards Community

ghost paralyzed me- frustrated [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TJMHPH
07-18-06, 05:15 PM I am playing in game that the dm is using the return to temple of elemental evil. an unmarked town shows up that is not on our map. the town is split by a river. we go across the river and enter what appears to be one of the more structurally sound buildings- tavern? well the ghost comes up from beneath the ground directly in front of me. does some ghost abil(even if i save-which i did- you are still paralyzed). then the ghost precedes to target me and only me. for its sneak attack.( i found out after the game that the ghost knew who was the healer and takes that person out first). ghost had 100+hp. it keeps attacking i go down to -2. a party member then pours a clw potion down my throat to keep me from dieing. my thing was once the ghost had me at negs does the paralysis end. also how can the ghost know what my hp are and wheather or not to continue attacking me. my dm said the ghost would know the difference :confused: so once i am back into postives the ghost comes back and attacks me while still paralyzed. question is how if i am paralzyed and not moving could the ghost tell i was still alive and a viable target. :confused: so back to the ghost attacks me and does 23 damage i have 6 hp dead. i am frustrated due to the fact my two choices were die or die slowly. some help with timing and other issues would be appreciated. thanks
Encard
07-18-06, 05:37 PM Scanning over the Ghost entry in the MM, I don't see any sort of paralysis ability. The other stuff, though possible, seems a tad shady. It sounds to me like your DM may have just wanted you dead.

That said, I don't currently have RtToEE - there may be a unique creature in that adventure that has this. It may also have been a ghost spellcaster/rogue sort of thing. Hard to say for certain.

On a side note, in general, I see no reason why paralysis would go away when you're at negative HP. You are, after all, still alive - you're just bleeding to death.
DarknessEternal
07-18-06, 05:47 PM It's pretty fishy, but if that's the worst thing that happened to you near something with the words "Temple of Elemental Evil" in the title, you were lucky.

Both those modules are complete deathtraps _designed_ to kill PCs.
Dwarven_Jihad
07-18-06, 05:50 PM Yeah, pure MM ghosts can't do that. It would have to be a specific-case thing for the monster in the module, or something made up by the DM. Most likely the latter, since that ability seems...odd.

Regarding "knowing which one is the healer", unless it can detect auras or some such it can only guess which person is the healer until you take an action that would identify you as such. So that part is fishy as well, unless you did perform such an act.

Once it's locked onto you, though, even though you're paralyzed you're still breathing/bleeding/whatever if you're alive. It's not unreasonable that if your party members can tell you're still alive enough to pour a potion into, then it's fair to assume the ghost can tell as well. In fact, since you're paralyzed it wouldn't really be able to tell when you're disabled--if it wanted to make sure you were dead it would have to continue until no signs of life existed.
Kradlo
07-18-06, 09:20 PM I did a double check of the Monster Manual and Libris Mortis. The MM entry for the Ghost shows no abilities that cause paralysis, particularly after a successful saving throw. Libris Mortis has some monstrous feats that affect undead paralysis abilities, but they only modify those powers, not grant them.

You said the ghost had 100+ hit points. Undead use d12s for hit dice, with no Con modifier. So, if using average hit points, that ghost would have to have at least 16 hit dice to average over 100 hit points. Ghosts have a +2 CR modifier, so the ghost was at least 16th level in life.

You mentioned paralysis and sneak attack damage, plus described a rather sneaky attack (rising up through the floor). If the ghost was a rogue 6/assassin 10 in life, he could have used the death attack feature to deliver a paralyzing attack. In this case, the DC of the Fortitude save would be DC 10 + the assassin's class level (10) + the assassin's INT modifier. Assuming an Intelligence of at least 16, that's a DC 23 Fortitude save. If you succeed, you're not paralyzed, though you do still take sneak attack damage (8d6 worth).

He'd have had to study you for 3 rounds, then made a successful sneak attack while manifesting. Given that it would be an incorporeal touch attack, and that you were flat-footed, that's not hard to do. So, it's 1d6 touch damage, plus 8d6 sneak attack damage, plus a paralyzing strike of DC 23 (give or take).

Your GM may have misread the entry on the Death Attack ability. That, or you may have misunderstood the DC of the Fortitude save and thought you made it when you actually failed. As for the ghost continuing to target your character, I'd have to say that an assassin, dead or alive, will concentrate on his target to the exclusion of all others until that target is dead.

So, if I understand all this correctly, you faced a CR 18 (or higher) ghost. Were the characters at or near this level to face such a threat?
green_yawgmoth
07-18-06, 10:11 PM I'm betting that your DM massively misread the assassin's death attack ability, since the ghost you're talking about is an assassin who kills anyone who enters the bar with his ghost touch weapon (about a CR 8 encounter, iirc). My advice in that situation (which is only party metagaming since I have RttToEE), is to run. Run somewhere. Run outside, run upstairs, run.

Of course, there's the potential that you didn't make the save because he decided to roll up stats or give him a couple more asn levels; unless he specifically said "you made the save", in which refer to my above paragraph.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
AlanBruce
07-18-06, 11:09 PM I happen to have that module and, although my players haven't reached that specific part of the adventure yet, I was intrigued by this post and checked on the creature's abilities. See if they matched what is described in these threads...

I have to say your DM has blatantly abused his power in regards to this particular NPC. This ghost is nowhere near the amount of hp. your DM declared he had. Furthermore, unless it performs a death attack, there is no way he could paralyze his victims any other way. And lastly, some suggested that this creature, according to the description you have given us, should be a CR 16, accounting its health and abilities. I am guessing (and purely guessing, mind you) that you were in the 7 - 9 level range when such a creature was encountered, making this a most unfair and unbalanced encounter.

My advice would be to talk to your DM about this and both review the rules on ghosts and how classes affect them. This will make sure encounters like the one you suffered are suffered no more.
TJMHPH
07-19-06, 02:56 AM we are lvl 6 and there are typically 5-6 party members.since the dm is a friend discussed after the game and he said this could and would prob lead to tpk. this encounter was meant to teach us to run.
ShadowDragon8685
07-19-06, 03:26 AM There's an easy soloution to this.

Have a nice, quiet, calm chat with your DM, over a cup of coffee, and with one of these in your lap: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/crossbowhammergun.gif
Cifer
07-19-06, 10:09 AM this encounter was meant to teach us to run.
I've got to admit that I'm curious how someone who is paralyzed is supposed to run...
runestar
07-19-06, 10:55 AM Ghost is a template, is it possible that the paralysis ability is not an ability of the ghost but rather, a special ability of the base creature?

I can't think of any creature with the ability to paralyse with its gaze at the moment, or access to any paralysing ability as a SU/SLA though. The only idea that comes to mind is a silver dragon with the ghost dragon template from draconomicon using its paralysing breath weapon.

Can you describe the ghost in detail?

100 hp is possible - the base creature could have been some monster with a lot of racial HD for its cr. The ghost dragon template grants an extra 2hp for each HD the dragon had. Throw in improved toughness as well and even 200+ hp is not uncommon. :)

At the moment, I suspect COing more than a blatant abuse of the rules. ;)
Kradlo
07-19-06, 05:59 PM Runestar, you should read the other posts, especially those from people with the module in question. My estimate was correct in that the ghost was an assassin. It explained the paralyzing attack and the sneak attack damage.

Back to the original topic. There's no way a CR 8 ghost could have 100 or more hit points. Even if the GM uses maximum hit points per hit die for the creature, a CR 8 ghost has 6 hit dice. That would mean 6d12, or 72 hit points. Add in Improved Toughness for another 6 HP for a total of 78 hp. Still well short of a hundred. That ghost would have to have at least 8 hit dice and Improved Toughness and maximum hit points per die to reach 102 hit points. Without Improved Toughness, you're looking at 9 hit dice with maximum points per die. That's a CR 11 encounter, for PCs that are levels 5 to 6. There are six PCs, so CR 7 or 8 can work, but CR 11? Or more? Way out of line for the party.

Your GM owes you an apology for throwing an opponent that far beyond the party's encounter level at you. And if he so misread the death attack that he thought that a successful save avoids death but results in paralysis, he needs to reread the DMG entry for the Assassin prestige class.

If your GM has an answer for these, invite him to post on this forum. I'd love to hear his side of it.
Oren
07-19-06, 06:10 PM I've got to admit that I'm curious how someone who is paralyzed is supposed to run...

Exactly, I'd be a bit ticked that in order to teach you to run he gave your character a Die or Die option as you had no save.
TJMHPH
07-20-06, 07:16 PM bump
Nom
07-20-06, 09:00 PM SPOILER WARNING:

Assuming your DM is playing the adventure "as written":

* The death attack can either "paralyze or kill the victim. Fort save DC 12 to resist.". This does not mean that you paralyze on a successful save; rather, the assassin can choose to either paralyze or kill you and you get a DC 12 Fort save to negate whichever he chose.

* As published, the ghost has 39 hp and is incorporeal (50% miss chance).

* As written, the ghost's "horrific appearance" ability does 1d4 points of drain to Str, Dex, Con. The 3.5 rules specify this as damage, which is much more sensible.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TJMHPH 07-18-06, 05:15 PM	I am playing in game that the dm is using the return to temple of elemental evil. an unmarked town shows up that is not on our map. the town is split by a river. we go across the river and enter what appears to be one of the more structurally sound buildings- tavern? well the ghost comes up from beneath the ground directly in front of me. does some ghost abil(even if i save-which i did- you are still paralyzed). then the ghost precedes to target me and only me. for its sneak attack.( i found out after the game that the ghost knew who was the healer and takes that person out first). ghost had 100+hp. it keeps attacking i go down to -2. a party member then pours a clw potion down my throat to keep me from dieing. my thing was once the ghost had me at negs does the paralysis end. also how can the ghost know what my hp are and wheather or not to continue attacking me. my dm said the ghost would know the difference :confused: so once i am back into postives the ghost comes back and attacks me while still paralyzed. question is how if i am paralzyed and not moving could the ghost tell i was still alive and a viable target. :confused: so back to the ghost attacks me and does 23 damage i have 6 hp dead. i am frustrated due to the fact my two choices were die or die slowly. some help with timing and other issues would be appreciated. thanks
Encard 07-18-06, 05:37 PM	Scanning over the Ghost entry in the MM, I don't see any sort of paralysis ability. The other stuff, though possible, seems a tad shady. It sounds to me like your DM may have just wanted you dead. That said, I don't currently have RtToEE - there may be a unique creature in that adventure that has this. It may also have been a ghost spellcaster/rogue sort of thing. Hard to say for certain. On a side note, in general, I see no reason why paralysis would go away when you're at negative HP. You are, after all, still alive - you're just bleeding to death.
DarknessEternal 07-18-06, 05:47 PM	It's pretty fishy, but if that's the worst thing that happened to you near something with the words "Temple of Elemental Evil" in the title, you were lucky. Both those modules are complete deathtraps _designed_ to kill PCs.
Dwarven_Jihad 07-18-06, 05:50 PM	Yeah, pure MM ghosts can't do that. It would have to be a specific-case thing for the monster in the module, or something made up by the DM. Most likely the latter, since that ability seems...odd. Regarding "knowing which one is the healer", unless it can detect auras or some such it can only guess which person is the healer until you take an action that would identify you as such. So that part is fishy as well, unless you did perform such an act. Once it's locked onto you, though, even though you're paralyzed you're still breathing/bleeding/whatever if you're alive. It's not unreasonable that if your party members can tell you're still alive enough to pour a potion into, then it's fair to assume the ghost can tell as well. In fact, since you're paralyzed it wouldn't really be able to tell when you're disabled--if it wanted to make sure you were dead it would have to continue until no signs of life existed.
Kradlo 07-18-06, 09:20 PM	I did a double check of the Monster Manual and Libris Mortis. The MM entry for the Ghost shows no abilities that cause paralysis, particularly after a successful saving throw. Libris Mortis has some monstrous feats that affect undead paralysis abilities, but they only modify those powers, not grant them. You said the ghost had 100+ hit points. Undead use d12s for hit dice, with no Con modifier. So, if using average hit points, that ghost would have to have at least 16 hit dice to average over 100 hit points. Ghosts have a +2 CR modifier, so the ghost was at least 16th level in life. You mentioned paralysis and sneak attack damage, plus described a rather sneaky attack (rising up through the floor). If the ghost was a rogue 6/assassin 10 in life, he could have used the death attack feature to deliver a paralyzing attack. In this case, the DC of the Fortitude save would be DC 10 + the assassin's class level (10) + the assassin's INT modifier. Assuming an Intelligence of at least 16, that's a DC 23 Fortitude save. If you succeed, you're not paralyzed, though you do still take sneak attack damage (8d6 worth). He'd have had to study you for 3 rounds, then made a successful sneak attack while manifesting. Given that it would be an incorporeal touch attack, and that you were flat-footed, that's not hard to do. So, it's 1d6 touch damage, plus 8d6 sneak attack damage, plus a paralyzing strike of DC 23 (give or take). Your GM may have misread the entry on the Death Attack ability. That, or you may have misunderstood the DC of the Fortitude save and thought you made it when you actually failed. As for the ghost continuing to target your character, I'd have to say that an assassin, dead or alive, will concentrate on his target to the exclusion of all others until that target is dead. So, if I understand all this correctly, you faced a CR 18 (or higher) ghost. Were the characters at or near this level to face such a threat?
green_yawgmoth 07-18-06, 10:11 PM	I'm betting that your DM massively misread the assassin's death attack ability, since the ghost you're talking about is an assassin who kills anyone who enters the bar with his ghost touch weapon (about a CR 8 encounter, iirc). My advice in that situation (which is only party metagaming since I have RttToEE), is to run. Run somewhere. Run outside, run upstairs, run. Of course, there's the potential that you didn't make the save because he decided to roll up stats or give him a couple more asn levels; unless he specifically said "you made the save", in which refer to my above paragraph. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
AlanBruce 07-18-06, 11:09 PM	I happen to have that module and, although my players haven't reached that specific part of the adventure yet, I was intrigued by this post and checked on the creature's abilities. See if they matched what is described in these threads... I have to say your DM has blatantly abused his power in regards to this particular NPC. This ghost is nowhere near the amount of hp. your DM declared he had. Furthermore, unless it performs a death attack, there is no way he could paralyze his victims any other way. And lastly, some suggested that this creature, according to the description you have given us, should be a CR 16, accounting its health and abilities. I am guessing (and purely guessing, mind you) that you were in the 7 - 9 level range when such a creature was encountered, making this a most unfair and unbalanced encounter. My advice would be to talk to your DM about this and both review the rules on ghosts and how classes affect them. This will make sure encounters like the one you suffered are suffered no more.
TJMHPH 07-19-06, 02:56 AM	we are lvl 6 and there are typically 5-6 party members.since the dm is a friend discussed after the game and he said this could and would prob lead to tpk. this encounter was meant to teach us to run.
ShadowDragon8685 07-19-06, 03:26 AM	There's an easy soloution to this. Have a nice, quiet, calm chat with your DM, over a cup of coffee, and with one of these in your lap: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/crossbowhammergun.gif
Cifer 07-19-06, 10:09 AM	this encounter was meant to teach us to run. I've got to admit that I'm curious how someone who is paralyzed is supposed to run...
runestar 07-19-06, 10:55 AM	Ghost is a template, is it possible that the paralysis ability is not an ability of the ghost but rather, a special ability of the base creature? I can't think of any creature with the ability to paralyse with its gaze at the moment, or access to any paralysing ability as a SU/SLA though. The only idea that comes to mind is a silver dragon with the ghost dragon template from draconomicon using its paralysing breath weapon. Can you describe the ghost in detail? 100 hp is possible - the base creature could have been some monster with a lot of racial HD for its cr. The ghost dragon template grants an extra 2hp for each HD the dragon had. Throw in improved toughness as well and even 200+ hp is not uncommon. :) At the moment, I suspect COing more than a blatant abuse of the rules. ;)
Kradlo 07-19-06, 05:59 PM	Runestar, you should read the other posts, especially those from people with the module in question. My estimate was correct in that the ghost was an assassin. It explained the paralyzing attack and the sneak attack damage. Back to the original topic. There's no way a CR 8 ghost could have 100 or more hit points. Even if the GM uses maximum hit points per hit die for the creature, a CR 8 ghost has 6 hit dice. That would mean 6d12, or 72 hit points. Add in Improved Toughness for another 6 HP for a total of 78 hp. Still well short of a hundred. That ghost would have to have at least 8 hit dice and Improved Toughness and maximum hit points per die to reach 102 hit points. Without Improved Toughness, you're looking at 9 hit dice with maximum points per die. That's a CR 11 encounter, for PCs that are levels 5 to 6. There are six PCs, so CR 7 or 8 can work, but CR 11? Or more? Way out of line for the party. Your GM owes you an apology for throwing an opponent that far beyond the party's encounter level at you. And if he so misread the death attack that he thought that a successful save avoids death but results in paralysis, he needs to reread the DMG entry for the Assassin prestige class. If your GM has an answer for these, invite him to post on this forum. I'd love to hear his side of it.
Oren 07-19-06, 06:10 PM	I've got to admit that I'm curious how someone who is paralyzed is supposed to run... Exactly, I'd be a bit ticked that in order to teach you to run he gave your character a Die or Die option as you had no save.
TJMHPH 07-20-06, 07:16 PM	bump
Nom 07-20-06, 09:00 PM	SPOILER WARNING: Assuming your DM is playing the adventure "as written": * The death attack can either "paralyze or kill the victim. Fort save DC 12 to resist.". This does not mean that you paralyze on a successful save; rather, the assassin can choose to either paralyze or kill you and you get a DC 12 Fort save to negate whichever he chose. * As published, the ghost has 39 hp and is incorporeal (50% miss chance). * As written, the ghost's "horrific appearance" ability does 1d4 points of drain to Str, Dex, Con. The 3.5 rules specify this as damage, which is much more sensible.