Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 12-08-07, 01:54 AM	I may be playing in a campaign where PCs never have magic items (they are only available to the enemies) and the enemy are mostly demons, is a Knight/Sorcerer gestalt a good idea? I'm not sure I can find a way to wear armor, since I'll always have that ASF without magical enhantments like Twilight. Maybe I should just go with Knight/Paladin instead for Cha synergy? alternatively, I could og with Knight/Warmage. Deal damage with spells, give battlefield control with Knight. Other combos I'm considering are Cleric/Ranger and Beguiler/Hexblade.
ff6shadow 12-08-07, 03:29 AM	What books do you have available?
kelvinaw273 12-08-07, 03:55 AM	With no magic items available you have got a BIG problem to make up for. I would suggest taking a lot of the buffing spells that improve your weapon damage and hitability - magic weapon, wraithstrike etc. I would suggest you think about: Knight//psychic warrior - take powers (Metaphysical weapon, Stygian Bane, Weapon of Energy) and psionic feats (Psionic Weapon, Aligned Attack) that buff your weapons and allow you to bypass damage reduction. This can work better than sorcerer as (a) you aren't restricted by armour and (b) you get a lot of bonus feats.
FrostHammer 12-08-07, 04:00 AM	I also have Tome of Battle available. I am allowed to choose 1 class from group 1 and one class from group 2, OR cjoose 2 classes from group 2. GROUP 1 Beguiler Dragons Shaman DuskBlade Bard Cleric Druid Favored Soul Sorcerer Warlock Warmage Wizard Blade Scholar Dread Necromancer Archivist Warblade Crusader Swordsage Psion Wilder PsyWarrior GROUP 2 Knight Barbarian Fighter Hexblade Marshal Paladin Ranger Rogue SoulKnife Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, and possiblyKnigth have been improved/upgraded so they don't suck as much.
Grumman 12-08-07, 04:30 AM	I may be playing in a campaign where PCs never have magic items (they are only available to the enemies) and the enemy are mostly demons, is a Knight/Sorcerer gestalt a good idea? I'm not sure I can find a way to wear armor, since I'll always have that ASF without magical enhantments like Twilight. What happens if you kill or incapacitate something that has a magic item? Does it disintegrate in a puff of DM fiat? In a gestalt game, your build seems fine to me. You could take the Still spell feat and the PHBII fast metamagic sorcerer variation, and just treat spells that usually have Somatic components as if they were a level higher than usual.
ff6shadow 12-08-07, 04:51 AM	Crusader would probably be a good choice for your first class. After all, healing becomes even more valuable when you take items out of the mix. Maybe Crusader/Rogue
runestar 12-08-07, 06:34 AM	I am almost tempted to say soulknife, since magic weapons will be non-existent. And you should still be able to use it while polymorphed or wildshaped. Are you allowed to multiclass on either side of the gestalt build? For example, a crusader/(fighter1/soulknifeX) build gets full bab, because of the way bab is staggered. Your saves will be fairly good as well.
ff6shadow 12-08-07, 07:26 AM	Why would staggered BAB matter. Crusader is Full BAB
kelvinaw273 12-08-07, 08:33 AM	Remember this is gestalt, not multi-class! The full BAB of one class trumps the partial BAB of the other, so that is what you gain. Soulknife coupled with a fighting class is a good option, as is Monk, because both get magic-weapon equivalents on their primary weapons, yet cover their greatest Achilles heel, lower BAB.
Grumman 12-08-07, 08:35 AM	The point was that he could get full BAB AND a magic weapon.
Salla 12-08-07, 08:45 AM	Druid/Barbarian looks like it could be amusing. Raging Wild Shape? "RAAAR! WE MAKE HOLES IN TEETH!" and buildings and dragons and ...
Yokomohoyo 12-08-07, 09:12 AM	I was thinking Druid/Sorcerer combo. Since you'll get a good BAB good HP and great spell combos. If you like Rouge/Sorcerer and really enjoy casting true strike/wraith strike followed by dimension door and pop up behind your target. Need something from behind a barrier, well what better to do then cast mage hand. Are the guards coming? Invisibility! Oh and not to mention you get the fastest access to the PrC. Spellwarp Sniper. You could also go for Fighter/Sorcerer and go for the PrC. Abrant Champion (I think that's how it's spelled). That whenever you cast mage armor/shield combo thanks to bounises that the class grants you could have those spells lasting a very long time. Not to mention that its a very great PrC since it continues your BAB without loosing too much.
Merestil Haye 12-08-07, 11:06 AM	I was thinking Druid/Sorcerer combo. Since you'll get a good BAB good HP and great spell combos.Not a valid choice. He's only allowed a certain degree of mix'n'matching. You could also go for Fighter/Sorcerer and go for the PrC. Abrant Champion (I think that's how it's spelled). That whenever you cast mage armor/shield combo thanks to bounises that the class grants you could have those spells lasting a very long time. Not to mention that its a very great PrC since it continues your BAB without loosing too much.Mage Armour is not an Abjuration spell and the PrC doesn't give it any bonuses. I'd thought of Warlock | Rogue. An invisible Warlock gets SA on his Eldritch Blast. You'll have to wait until you get a continuous invisibility effect to benefit from the combination every round though. Is the DM using fractional base bonus calculations? He should be to avoid the odder byproducts of the gestalt rules. It'll also help keep monsters built around the saving throw a bit more of a threat.
CaptainPicard 12-08-07, 03:29 PM	I tried something like this once before. It fell apart because, unfortunately, attacks in D&D are mostly based on level and ability scores whereas defence is normally based on magic items, so everyone just massacred one another by about level 7. Of course, that game also possibly fell apart because I allowed Duskblade//Incarnate, but whatever.
FrostHammer 12-08-07, 04:30 PM	We're using Reserve points for healing, so it's niot a big of a problem as it can be. And remember, we don't get ANY PRCs, so most of those GISH classes are out, since they usually want things like Abjurant Champio and Spellsword. So soulknife is a good idea because they get magic weapons huh? Interesting...
A_Ninja_Errant 12-08-07, 07:36 PM	I don't see Monk on your list...is that one out to start with? In this sort of situation anyone who relies on his abilities is more powerful than someone who relies on equipment. Soulknife or Monk, combined with Rogue, or Dragon Shaman, or sorcerer, or psion. Lotta good options. I'd lean towards Soulknife/Dragon Shaman or Rogue but that's just me.
runestar 12-08-07, 10:36 PM	Argh...I keep mixing up swordsage and crusader bab...:embarrass Okay, rephrase my question. What if you mixed 2 3/4 bab classes, but started 1 off with a lv in a full-bab class, say fighter1/soulknifeX on one side, and wizX on the other?
A_Ninja_Errant 12-08-07, 11:42 PM	Argh...I keep mixing up swordsage and crusader bab...:embarrass Okay, rephrase my question. What if you mixed 2 3/4 bab classes, but started 1 off with a lv in a full-bab class, say fighter1/soulknifeX on one side, and wizX on the other? I don't think Gestalt BAB works that way.... It says use the best progression in the SRD, not whichever bonus is higher at the moment. I'll admit the way they phrase it in the multi-classing section is confusing, but I don't think they meant for you to be able to do that. I could be wrong of course, is there a FAQ or Errata for it?
Sinfire Titan 12-08-07, 11:53 PM	I also have Tome of Battle available. I am allowed to choose 1 class from group 1 and one class from group 2, OR cjoose 2 classes from group 2. GROUP 1 Beguiler Dragons Shaman DuskBlade Bard Cleric Druid Favored Soul Sorcerer Warlock Warmage Wizard Blade Scholar Dread Necromancer Archivist Warblade Crusader Swordsage Psion Wilder PsyWarrior GROUP 2 Knight Barbarian Fighter Hexblade Marshal Paladin Ranger Rogue SoulKnife Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, and possiblyKnigth have been improved/upgraded so they don't suck as much. Archivist Warblade. Bah-Roh-Ken. And Knight doesn't suck.
runestar 12-08-07, 11:59 PM	Yes...best progression at that lv...note that I will use "-" to denote the other side of the gestalt build. For example a fighter1-druid1 has bab+1 at 1st lv. Then at 2nd lv, you go fighter1/cleric1-druid2, and you get bab+2 from druid2. And so on and so forth, for a final bab of +20 for a fighter1/cleric19-druid20 (because of the way bab is staggered). Likewise, you have base saves of fort+22/reflex+12/will+22, instead of a paltry +12/+6/+12.:D I don't think Gestalt BAB works that way.... It says use the best progression in the SRD If that was the case, then 1 lv of fighter will still give you full bab, since that is the best progression there is in the build. Either way....:)
danielinthewolvesden 12-09-07, 01:18 AM	Without some way of bypassing the demon's DR you are gonna die.:weep: Go for Cleric/Fighter and boost yourself.
kelvinaw273 12-09-07, 03:11 AM	Argh...I keep mixing up swordsage and crusader bab...:embarrass Okay, rephrase my question. What if you mixed 2 3/4 bab classes, but started 1 off with a lv in a full-bab class, say fighter1/soulknifeX on one side, and wizX on the other? Fractional bonuses are for multi-classing, not gestalt. Gestalt you take the best of the two classes at any level, that's it. I tried something like this once before. It fell apart because, unfortunately, attacks in D&D are mostly based on level and ability scores whereas defence is normally based on magic items, so everyone just massacred one another by about level 7. That's why you need a self-buffer to build up those defensive/offensive abilities. For example, Monk//PsyWar would have magic DR bypassing from monk abilities, then you can buff that with Metaphysical weapon and ward yourself with Inertial Armour and Force Screen and deliver a devastating charge with Psionic Lion's Charge and a full flurry of blows - and that's just by level 4.
FrostHammer 12-09-07, 04:08 AM	I don't see Monk on your list...is that one out to start with? In this sort of situation anyone who relies on his abilities is more powerful than someone who relies on equipment. Soulknife or Monk, combined with Rogue, or Dragon Shaman, or sorcerer, or psion. Lotta good options. I'd lean towards Soulknife/Dragon Shaman or Rogue but that's just me. I was under the impression that Monks are very equipment (and stat) dependent. It's hard with only a 32 point buy and no magic items to boost stats to meet prerequesites. Oh yeah, and while no magic items are allowed, special materials are definitely allowed, so I'll be getting Cold Iron Guisarme (this campaign is HEAVY in demonic enemies) Luckily I reduced MAD somewhat by getting an upgraded Knight approved. The upgraded Knight lets me use my Charisma in place of my Strength for everything combat-related like attack rolls (ranged and melee), damage rolls, trip, bullrush, overrun, grapple, qualifying for Power Attack, etc. We're also using LOTs of variants. Armor as DR, Defense Bonus variant (so unarmored I get +7 to my AC. Probably gonna end up with Knight/Sorcerer), Reserve points, Action points, Weapom Group Feats, Traits, Flaw (only one allowed), and many, many homebrewed versions of the weaker classes like Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, etc.
Grumman 12-09-07, 06:04 AM	Luckily I reduced MAD somewhat by getting an upgraded Knight approved. The upgraded Knight lets me use my Charisma in place of my Strength for everything combat-related like attack rolls (ranged and melee), damage rolls, trip, bullrush, overrun, grapple, qualifying for Power Attack, etc. You're joking, right? How in the nine hells did you justify that, in-game?
Merestil Haye 12-09-07, 08:02 AM	Fractional bonuses are for multi-classing, not gestalt. Gestalt you take the best of the two classes at any level, that's it.The standard Gestalt rules are "if either of my classes give a +1 BAB at the level I'm taking, I get +1 BAB." So a Ftr 1 / Sor 19 | Wiz 20 has what BAB? 20. With fractional base bonuses, he has a BAB of 10½. (Counts as 10, obviously.) How about saving throws? Fort +14 vs Fort +8 Ref +12 vs Ref +6 Will + 22 vs +13. Trust me, fractional base bonuses work very well with gestalt games.
Sinfire Titan 12-09-07, 09:23 AM	The standard Gestalt rules are "if either of my classes give a +1 BAB at the level I'm taking, I get +1 BAB." So a Ftr 1 / Sor 19 | Wiz 20 has what BAB? 20. With fractional base bonuses, he has a BAB of 10½. (Counts as 10, obviously.) How about saving throws? Fort +14 vs Fort +8 Ref +12 vs Ref +6 Will + 22 vs +13. Trust me, fractional base bonuses work very well with gestalt games. Only on the first HD. At second level, he no longer has the BAB of a Fighter, because he doesn't have that as part of his new Gestalt levels.
kelvinaw273 12-09-07, 09:55 AM	I was under the impression that Monks are very equipment (and stat) dependent. It's hard with only a 32 point buy and no magic items to boost stats to meet prerequesites. They are stat dependent, but 32 point buy is plenty! With that you can get a 16 in Dex and Wis. Take combat reflexes and concentrate all your equipment into your AC and your feats into damage, if you gestalt with a spellcasting/manifesting class concentrate on AC and attack improving buffs. A gestalt monk//psywar can buff to AC 24 at 2nd level with inertial armour and force screen, for example. Then you have two free feats - weapon finesse and psionic fist would be good choices; expend your focus for +2d6 damage on a strike, and wrap it around a stunning fist using your superior dex to strike. At higher level expand the psionic feat tree to unavoidable attack, and you can aim a blow at their touch AC. Monks depend on equipment the least of all classes; there's no other class, save perhaps the sorcerer that you can dump naked somewhere and still function 100% normally. Everything they have the psychic warrior can enhance, and the monk replaces the psychic warrior's dependence on armour and weapons. The standard Gestalt rules are "if either of my classes give a +1 BAB at the level I'm taking, I get +1 BAB." So a Ftr 1 / Sor 19 | Wiz 20 has what BAB? 20. With fractional base bonuses, he has a BAB of 10½. (Counts as 10, obviously.) How about saving throws? Fort +14 vs Fort +8 Ref +12 vs Ref +6 Will + 22 vs +13. Trust me, fractional base bonuses work very well with gestalt games. BAB 20?? What progression are you using? Level 1: Fighter has BAB of +1, Wizard +0, so you get +1. Level 2: Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1 has BAB +1, Wizard 2 has +1, so you are still at +1. Level 3: Fighter 1/Sorcerer 2 has BAB +2, Wizard 3 has +1, so you get +2 etc. By level 20 you have a BAB of +10 Same with saves: Level 1: Fighter 1 has +2/+0/+0, Wizard 1 has +0/+0/+2 so you get +2/+0/+2 Level 2: Ftr 1/Sor 1 has +2/+0/+2, Wizard 2 has +0/+0/+3 so you get +2/+0/+3 and so on. By level 20 you have +8/+6/+12. Treat both sides of the gestalt separately, compare the two and take the best. You do NOT add both sides together, as you would when multi-classing. Fractional benefits only work on multi-classing, if allowed at all, so a Fighter 1 / Sorc 19 would benefit very slightly on the saves. Technically you could use them with DM discretion on the multi-class side of the equation but they will not make that much difference - an extra 1 at most on reflex and will saves.
A_Ninja_Errant 12-09-07, 10:01 AM	I was under the impression that Monks are very equipment (and stat) dependent. It's hard with only a 32 point buy and no magic items to boost stats to meet prerequesites. Kinda, really only stat dependent I think... Oh yeah, and while no magic items are allowed, special materials are definitely allowed, so I'll be getting Cold Iron Guisarme (this campaign is HEAVY in demonic enemies) If you can manage a lot of extra money into it, skip cold iron and get Abyssal Bloodiron(Planar Handbook) Same as cold iron, but you get +4 to confirm crits. Costs +10,000 gp though. Luckily I reduced MAD somewhat by getting an upgraded Knight approved. The upgraded Knight lets me use my Charisma in place of my Strength for everything combat-related like attack rolls (ranged and melee), damage rolls, trip, bullrush, overrun, grapple, qualifying for Power Attack, etc. Thats just weird, but hey whatever if your DM allows it have fun. We're also using LOTs of variants. Armor as DR, Defense Bonus variant (so unarmored I get +7 to my AC. Probably gonna end up with Knight/Sorcerer), Reserve points, Action points, Weapom Group Feats, Traits, Flaw (only one allowed), and many, many homebrewed versions of the weaker classes like Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, etc. Sounds like fun :D
Grumman 12-09-07, 10:18 AM	Treat both sides of the gestalt separately, compare the two and take the best. You do NOT add both sides together, as you would when multi-classing. Fractional benefits only work on multi-classing, if allowed at all, so a Fighter 1 / Sorc 19 would benefit very slightly on the saves. Technically you could use them with DM discretion on the multi-class side of the equation but they will not make that much difference - an extra 1 at most on reflex and will saves. I disagree: Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. It is a level-by-level progression, not two separate progressions. In effect you would be a (Fighter/Wizard) 1 / (Sorcerer/Wizard) 19, as opposed to a (Figher 1/Sorcerer 19)/(Wizard 20). Using your method, the level progression: 1st: Fighter/Wizard 2nd: Wizard/Sorcerer is completely different to: 1st: Fighter/Wizard 2nd: Sorcerer/Wizard It doubles the amount of bookkeeping the player must do, recording the B.A.B., base saves, hit die, skill points, spell progressions, etc from both sides in case one overtakes the other, instead of just recording one set of values. I definitely agree with those who say that fractional base bonuses are the way to go here.
kelvinaw273 12-09-07, 11:48 AM	I disagree: It is a level-by-level progression, not two separate progressions. In effect you would be a (Fighter/Wizard) 1 / (Sorcerer/Wizard) 19, as opposed to a (Figher 1/Sorcerer 19)/(Wizard 20). Using your method, the level progression: 1st: Fighter/Wizard 2nd: Wizard/Sorcerer is completely different to: 1st: Fighter/Wizard 2nd: Sorcerer/Wizard It doubles the amount of bookkeeping the player must do, recording the B.A.B., base saves, hit die, skill points, spell progressions, etc from both sides in case one overtakes the other, instead of just recording one set of values. I definitely agree with those who say that fractional base bonuses are the way to go here. Yes this: It doubles the amount of bookkeeping the player must do, recording the B.A.B., base saves, hit die, skill points, spell progressions, etc from both sides in case one overtakes the other, instead of just recording one set of values. is exactly what you have to do! Trying to munchkin a full BAB progression out of two 1/2 BAB classes isn't something any DM with a spine would allow, trust me on this.
Grumman 12-09-07, 12:25 PM	Yes this: It doubles the amount of bookkeeping the player must do, recording the B.A.B., base saves, hit die, skill points, spell progressions, etc from both sides in case one overtakes the other, instead of just recording one set of values. is exactly what you have to do! Trying to munchkin a full BAB progression out of two 1/2 BAB classes isn't something any DM with a spine would allow, trust me on this. Why not use the fractional bonuses rule instead, since it accomplishes the same thing for less work, and stays closer to the rules as written?
kelvinaw273 12-09-07, 01:20 PM	Why not use the fractional bonuses rule instead, since it accomplishes the same thing for less work, and stays closer to the rules as written? They were designed for multi-classing and not gestalt, are an optional rule (like gestalt), involve even MORE bookkeeping, and are far away from rules for gestalt as intended.
Grumman 12-09-07, 01:33 PM	They were designed for multi-classing and not gestalt, are an optional rule (like gestalt), involve even MORE bookkeeping, and are far away from rules for gestalt as intended. How so? It means you have to write your B.A.B. and base saves with an extra decimal place, but this is a far cry from making the players record three separate level progressions (the two separate levelling streams and a third with the best features from each), as your house rule would require.
ChibiQueso 12-09-07, 03:34 PM	Can you multiclass on a side at all? A druid 20//Monk1/Something Else 19 is a nice gestalt combo. Possibly Druid 19//Monk1/Rogue 19. The elusive sneak attacking dire bear. Of doom.
Grumman 12-09-07, 07:24 PM	Can you multiclass on a side at all? Given that there is a section describing prestige classes for gestalt characters, the answer is definitely yes.
strenoth 12-09-07, 07:26 PM	Well, personally, I favor the soul knife for one side, and I'm thinking Duskblade for the other. w/ no magic items, the enhancment bonuses from the soulknife are useful, as are the special abilities that are baiscally available no where else. And you can really Nova on your first round of combat well at higher levels.
kelvinaw273 12-09-07, 07:36 PM	How so? It means you have to write your B.A.B. and base saves with an extra decimal place, but this is a far cry from making the players record three separate level progressions (the two separate levelling streams and a third with the best features from each), as your house rule would require. House rule? That's the way Gestalt is meant to be played! I think one of us has the wrong end of the stick, somewhere. As I understand it, using fractional stats works by taking the fractions and seeing if they add to a whole when multi-classing. For example, Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 2 should have a Ref save of +0 normally (0 for fighter, 0 for wizard); but by fractional stats they get +1, as they have +1/3 for fighter (rounded down to zero) and +2/3 for Sorcerer (rounded down to zero) but together these make a round +1. Fractional stats don't apply to gestalt Fighter ¦ Sorcerer because in Gestalt you do not add the scores, you just take the best of either of them. A fraction on either side makes no difference, it is still rounded down. The only way they can apply is if you take the Fighter/Sorcerer ¦ Wizard and calculate them on the F/S side before comparing with Wizard to select the best. Fractional stats is an optional rule anyway, and the most difference it can make is a +1 in saves or BAB. Hardly earth-shaking. The idea of comparing stats and taking the best is not a houserule with gestalt - that's the way it works. I agree it is poorly worded in the "If one side gets a +1 BAB and the other doesn't then you gain a +1 BAB" because that means that by staggering the BAB progression you by literal interpretation gain +1 BAB from two +1/2 BAB classes - but that's an oversight in the wording. What it is clear from the description that you are meant to do is exactly as I have said - you get whichever progression is best from either side of the gestalt line (¦) treating each side as a single entity. You do not add them, you just get the best of the two. Am I making sense now? How were you applying fractional increases to gestalt?
Grumman 12-09-07, 07:55 PM	What it is clear from the description that you are meant to do is exactly as I have said - you get whichever progression is best from either side of the gestalt line (¦) treating each side as a single entity.Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. Read this again: there are no two sides. He chooses two classes each time he gains a new level, and applies the best aspects of each to his characteristics. How do you misread this? If you were correct, it would specify that you advance each side of the gestalt separately, and take the best aspects of each side of the entire progression. But it doesn't. It makes no reference at all to the previous level choices being a pair of entities.
pmurray@bigpond.com 12-10-07, 01:14 AM	I may be playing in a campaign where PCs never have magic items (they are only available to the enemies) and the enemy are mostly demons. Allso known as the DM power-trip campaign. Perhaps get the Magic of Incarnium? Kensai, also, allows you to have magic items without having them.
Cifer 12-10-07, 07:23 AM	Apart from the fact that I predict a rather unfun campaign (demons basically scream at you to get magic items to overcome their various strengths unless your casters don't want to do anything besides buffing your fighters), using fractional rules sounds a lot better for gestalt than calculating each side seperately. This gets even funnier with HD-progression: So the character is, say, a barbarian2/wizard2//cleric4. Now he adds a level of fighter//cleric. Does he get a straight D10? Do we roll two times and see which die is better? Do we roll the entire hit point progressions seperately for both sides and compare them? I prefer just using the fractional rules and be done with it.
kelvinaw273 12-10-07, 07:27 AM	Read this again: there are no two sides. He chooses two classes each time he gains a new level, and applies the best aspects of each to his characteristics. How do you misread this? If you were correct, it would specify that you advance each side of the gestalt separately, and take the best aspects of each side of the entire progression. But it doesn't. It makes no reference at all to the previous level choices being a pair of entities. I don't misread it - it's exactly what I'm saying! I'm just redefining it slightly so that a munchkin cannot say (as you suggested) that because he has staggered the progression of Sorcerer and Wizard he should therefore get +1 BAB at each level because at sor 1 and wiz 2 ¦ wizard gets a +1, then at sor 2 ¦ wiz 3 sor gets another +1 etc. by inserting a level of fighter in on the sor side of the equation. That's all. The examples given in UA for gestalt do not have multi-classing involved at all, the implication being that gestalt replaces multi-classing. I don't see why it should, but then we are in uncharted territory - hence my (minor) redefinition to cut out munchkinism. But you still have not explained where using fractional stats comes in ... but that's OK I think I have figured out what you were trying to say: You are saying that using fractional benefits at each level increase you would compare +1/2 BAB for sorcerer and +1/2 BAB for wizard and get +1/2 BAB regardless. That makes sense, and it's just a slightly different way of calculating the same result. It takes as much work either way, really.
Cifer 12-10-07, 07:38 AM	The examples given in UA for gestalt do not have multi-classing involved at all, the implication being that gestalt replaces multi-classing. I don't see why it should, but then we are in uncharted territory - hence my (minor) redefinition to cut out munchkinism. Right. A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters. I really wonder how you can get into a PrC at first level (apart from being a changeling or a shifter), since that's the only way one would avoid multiclassing there... In effect, both sides give rules different from the RAW (you said yourself yours is a "redefinition") that prevent the most obvious abuses - the difference being that the non-fractional one seems to require that one recalculates the entire save/BAB progression every time one levels up while the fractional one merely adds the procedure of keeping track of four decimals.
kelvinaw273 12-10-07, 08:32 PM	Prestige classes are at the DM's discretion in a Gestalt game, always. Some are simply not done, like the Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight, as their features are replicated (only better) by Gestalting, others are acceptable if the DM agrees.
FrostHammer 12-10-07, 11:13 PM	Apart from the fact that I predict a rather unfun campaign (demons basically scream at you to get magic items to overcome their various strengths unless your casters don't want to do anything besides buffing your fighters). Well I gues this will nerf casters in a way. they HAVE to buff fighters now.
Radijs 12-11-07, 07:09 AM	Why hasn't anyone suggested that he should get "Craft magic arms & armor" and "Craft magic weapon" along with wizard or cleric levels.
A_Ninja_Errant 12-11-07, 07:35 AM	Why hasn't anyone suggested that he should get "Craft magic arms & armor" and "Craft magic weapon" along with wizard or cleric levels. I would assume that if magic items don't exist, those feats don't either. Otherwise what would be the point?
Cifer 12-11-07, 09:16 AM	Well I gues this will nerf casters in a way. they HAVE to buff fighters now. Actually, they don't. The problem is that now, in order to get an effective non-magical fighter, you need a non-magical fighter and a caster. To get an effective magical fighter, you just need a cleric or a druid. Not that this was ever different, but the gap between them has just widened.
Ratpick 12-26-07, 07:46 PM	You're joking, right? How in the nine hells did you justify that, in-game? He beats up people with his awesome?
Legdiwena 12-26-07, 08:07 PM	VoP Monk/Fighter or Monk/Barbarian
Makuya 12-26-07, 08:30 PM	One question remains: Why does the DM specify no magic items and whatnot?
Sinfire Titan 12-26-07, 09:10 PM	VoP Monk/Fighter or Monk/Barbarian Monk/Barb won't work. Alignments aren't compatible. Duskblade/Wizard? Dread Necromancer/Cleric? Warblade/Swordsage? Crusader/Incarnate? Druid/Monk?
Legdiwena 12-26-07, 09:26 PM	True, would need to use the Chaos Monk variant
BrianMc223 12-27-07, 02:00 PM	VoP Druid20/Barb20 Wildshape into a Legendary Ape and you now have a ton of str and can still use a weapon. (Which is a +5 and good.) (+43/+38/+33/+27 full attack?)
Sinfire Titan 12-27-07, 02:14 PM	VoP Druid20/Barb20 Wildshape into a Legendary Ape and you now have a ton of str and can still use a weapon. (Which is a +5 and good.) (+43/+38/+33/+27 full attack?) What +5 weapon? You have VoP!
BrianMc223 12-27-07, 02:22 PM	Uhh, you ever actually read the VoP? :rolleyes: Also, if you dm would allow it, I'de throw the Saint template on the barb side of the tree. You losse mighty rage, but you get the great bonuses from saint. (You could also switch the +8 and the +6 stat bonus around and still have the same str and wis as without the saint template, but have them better.)
Legdiwena 12-27-07, 03:23 PM	Wouldn't a LA apply on both sides of gestalt?
BrianMc223 12-27-07, 03:55 PM	I'm not sure about RAW, but personally I think that would be insane. Of course running it on only one side is slightly overpowered, I would say up any LA by 50% but run it on one side. (So saint is +3.)
Cifer 12-27-07, 04:08 PM	Saint shouldn't be used anyway - the designers say it's overpowered.
BrianMc223 12-27-07, 04:20 PM	Yea, but you have to play a saint. I would agree with you for games where the alignment wasn't enforced. Besides, it's not a super low magic world, it's a "Only the bad guys have magic items" world. All's fair in love and war. The dm has declared war on players.