gnome bard/rogue help? [Archive] - Wizards Community

gnome bard/rogue help? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
devilin_west
01-18-07, 09:14 AM Ok so here's my problem. I need to make a new character for a Level 5 party (i myself may possibly be level 4)for a 3.0 game, as my previous character is now dead and most likely the "play-thing" of one rather "affectionate" bugbear.

Anyway I want to play a Gnome Bard and thought id take a level of rogue as i like the idea of the bard being more of a theif.(The basis being that his opinion is if they don't give him enough money, in his eyes, for performing he steals what he "deserves").

Now i'm not really sure what skills and feats would be useful as i mainly only grasped the roleplaying aspects of the character. The character will most likely be cha and dex based to take advantage of both bard and rogue skills. I would possibly like to dual weild, although i dont think that it would be a good idea unless i could use his dex mod instead of str. I know the feat used for this, i just dont know if its available.

Any suggestions would help as its my first time trying to make a thief bard.
Zherog
01-18-07, 10:22 AM One thing to mention right away, if you're playing 3.0. Neither rogue nor bard is the gnome's favored class. If you don't keep their levels within one of each other, you'll be taking XP penalties.

On to your actual question, though. Skills to consider:

Bluff: Convince them they haven't actually paid you, so they pay you twice
Diplomacy: Sweet talk your way into getting more, or getting a gig in a better place
Forgery: A great, underused skill in my opinion. Forge all sorts of documents - like an invitation to the King's Ball and so on
Gather Information: Find out where the good neighborhoods are easily
Intimidate: In 3.0, Small characters don't have a -4 penalty to this skill vs Medium characters, so you can threaten them to give you more cash
Pick Pockets: (renamed Sleight of Hand in 3.5) Take a little extra without them knowing
Sense Motive: Always have an idea how your audience feels
Speak Language: Bard is the only core base class that has this skill as a class skill. It's an often overlooked little advantage of the class

Of course, you'll want Perform - I assumed that was a given.

Suggesting feats is more difficult without knowing what sources you have access to.
Puca
01-18-07, 11:06 AM I dont know 3.0. All my stuff is 3.5, so take it for what it is worth.

The thing is, both bards and rogues are so wide open with what they can do. There are a lot of options.

What kind of rogue do you want to be?
With skills, spells, and a high Cha, you could be a con-artist type.
Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive are all key skills and on the lists of both rogues and bards. Intimidate will be a little less useful. Gather Info can go well with this, depending on how your DM adjudicates it.

Be aware of synergies that can improve things in this area: Knowledge (royalty) for diplomacy for example.
________________________________

There is also the back stabber type. You are going to want to get that Weapon Finesse feat you mentioned (Dex to melee attacks) and then focus on movement: Tumble is key. You need to move into position to flank, and you dont want any AoOs. In addition, youll want to up your speed. Expeditions Retreat is a good spell for this. Consider the Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack chain.

Your hit points are the biggest liability to this method. You must make yourself as hard to hit as possible.

With only one level of rogue, this is probably not the way you are going to go.
________________________________

The sneaker: Hide, Move Silently are the key skills and, again, are on the class lists of both bards and rogues. But consider why and when you are going to sneak and hide? It is nice for archers and for scouts.
________________________________

Obstacle remover: Finding traps and eliminating them. Search, Disable Device, Open Lock. None of these are on the class list for bards, but with one level of rogue, you can have max ranks of character-level +3 any way. Investing in them at cross-class costs when you level as a bard is viable, but it cuts into your options considerably. You could add more rogue levels as needed. (That might not be a bad idea any way: youll want to do it if you desire to increase your SA, and Evasion is worth one more level at least.)
________________________________

The scout. Listen and Spot. This works well with the sneak, but you need a way to see. Darkvision and See Invisibility are good, but neither is on your class list. You could establish a working relationship with the party wizard, or rely on UMD and wands.

There is a feat in CA that will let you get a familiar. I dont care much for pets, but the ability of familiars to use your ranks in skills makes them very good with certain classes like Bards. Check into it if you can.

___________________________

Wannabe caster. You are a caster, of course. Depending on your supplements, there are some great bardic spells. But with UMD you can open up a range of possibilities. Bluff, Knowledge Arcana, and Spellcraft are all skills you want to have at least a few ranks in if you go this route. You also have that racial bonus to illusions. An illusory wall between you and an opponent provides you with total concealment, which results in SA damage if you attack with a ranged weapon from the other side. Even if they “know” it is not a real wall, they still need to make a save to see past it.
________________________________

Sleight of Hand didnt fit anywhere in those groupings, but it is handy and sort of a stock “thief skill.”

With your number of skill-points, you could pick and choose from at least two maybe three of these typical thief roles.

Your bardic abilities open up the possibility of a knowledge guy. There are feats that can improve this and you only need 1 rank in a knowledge skill to make it workable, though as many as possible are better. Knowledge History boosts your Bardic Knowledge feature.

Once you select a couple of skills sets to focus on, then look at the spells and feats that make the most of them. Thats what Id do anyway.
Zherog
01-18-07, 11:25 AM I dont know 3.0. All my stuff is 3.5, so take it for what it is worth.
...
With your number of skill-points, you could pick and choose from at least two maybe three of these typical thief roles.

One thing from 3.0 that will matter for the last sentence: in 3.0, bards only received 4 skill points per level. This is offset, somewhat, by the fact that there's only one Perform skill.
Puca
01-18-07, 11:45 AM Ouch. Even with a high Int, that cuts your options with my approach down to probably two at the most.

You could solve that with more levels of rogue, and with neither rogue nor bard as favored classes, you will probably want to consider that anyway. Going every other level rogue, would average 6+int skill points per level, and you could make a con artist/obstacle remover (for example) work.

Up you con-artist skills (Diplomacy, Bluff x2, Sense Motive, and Intimidate) on bard levels and your thief set (Search x2, Open Locks x2, Disable Device x2) Put left over skill points at rogue levels in Pick Pockets and Sense Motive, or whatever social skill you think is most important. Remember, the DC for Diplomacy is fixed, while the others are opponse check, meaning they are better to keep as high as possible.

Just a thought.
Cromag
01-18-07, 02:35 PM Weapon finesse is available in 3.0, however it is done for each weapon specifically, IE weapon finesse rapier does not help with daggers.

Dual wielding requires 2 feats to be usable
ambidexterity and 2 weapon fighting.

I'm going to say this up front, I like bards, I am playing a bard now and have played them before... in 3.0 Bards are not good, that is why they were upgraded in 3.0. If you have your heart set on bard for 3.0 then don't take more than a 1 level dip in rogue (probably the first) and have a high int. the parts of the bard that are good require you to be mostly bard, or a PRC that helps them (such as virtuoso which is in 3.0). I would suggest looking through song and silence (3.0 bard/rogue book) for some helpful ideas.

Good luck and have fun :)
CaoSlayer
01-18-07, 03:24 PM Note: this post is 3.0

There is one thing that makes the 3.0 bard almost equal to his 3.5 counterpart:
Spell selection.

I recomend you to not take rogue levels because besides the xp penalty almost everything a rogue does but detecting traps a bard can do it also.

If you want to be a rogueish bard you can use many spells.

I recomend you from level 1 silent imagen because you can use it for a distraction or as coverture (silent imagen: stone wall work wonders). Ventroloquism also can help you, in conjution with invisibility allows you to make an enemy think you are somewhere else. And finally mage armor is a good armor because the lack of ASF or dex penalty.

At level 2, glitterdust is godlike, it is a mass blindness that also helps you to spot invisible enemies. Hold person 3.0 is a level 2 save or die, nice if you have a very high charisma or spell focus enchantment. Darkness can save your party´s ass when outnumbered or when fighting against something powerful. The stat boosting spells are must have, specially cat grace if you go into weapon finese, a normal cast will grant you +4 dex for several hours.

you will be more or less useful to the party until level 7, then you will become once per day god with 3.0 haste I repeat for enfasis: TAKE HASTE, an extra action each round is the equivalent to have two like you.

I personally think that the best 3.0 bard is the caster one, if you take spell focus and greater focus with a high charisma, almost nobody will be able to resist your spells, a well placed hold person or confusion will end a fight quick.

For a frontliner bard, the long time buffers are a must, that means, mage armor is a must, greater magic weapon is a must and bull´s str or/and cat´s grace is a must; haste is always a must.
devilin_west
01-19-07, 04:42 AM Thanks for the help everybody. Its going to really help me make my character. i've decided instead of dual weilding or weapon finese im just taking a masterwork composite shortbow and the feats pointblank shot and precise shot, most likely with rapid shot next time i get a feat.
big_bluto
01-19-07, 08:42 AM I've played a Gnome Bard/Rogue, right up to 15th level, and I have to say it's my favourite character of all time.

I basically made him a total ego-maniac, almost a publcist, who had the party members convinced he was only an out of work tailor (high bluff).
He was more prone to making up tales about himself than others, his Bardic knowledge checks consisted mostly of Knowledge: Local Babes/Bars and he was quite creative, frequently decorating the teams wagon to the equivalent of a rock stars tour bus, along with the Paladins armour.

Pretty self-focussed, but intensely loyal to the party after they had saved his butt a couple of times.
Steals mostly for fun, and views most things as a personal contest.

Almost by accident ended up being the party spokesperson, but couldn't keep his mouth shut.
Woke a sleeping dragon with the immortal words, "YO, GOODLY DRAGON....YOU GOT GOOD BOOTY!"
:D
This combination of classes and race gives you loads of scope to play a really character driven PC, not one focussed on stats, feats, or how much damage it can do.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
devilin_west 01-18-07, 09:14 AM	Ok so here's my problem. I need to make a new character for a Level 5 party (i myself may possibly be level 4)for a 3.0 game, as my previous character is now dead and most likely the "play-thing" of one rather "affectionate" bugbear. Anyway I want to play a Gnome Bard and thought id take a level of rogue as i like the idea of the bard being more of a theif.(The basis being that his opinion is if they don't give him enough money, in his eyes, for performing he steals what he "deserves"). Now i'm not really sure what skills and feats would be useful as i mainly only grasped the roleplaying aspects of the character. The character will most likely be cha and dex based to take advantage of both bard and rogue skills. I would possibly like to dual weild, although i dont think that it would be a good idea unless i could use his dex mod instead of str. I know the feat used for this, i just dont know if its available. Any suggestions would help as its my first time trying to make a thief bard.
Zherog 01-18-07, 10:22 AM	One thing to mention right away, if you're playing 3.0. Neither rogue nor bard is the gnome's favored class. If you don't keep their levels within one of each other, you'll be taking XP penalties. On to your actual question, though. Skills to consider: Bluff: Convince them they haven't actually paid you, so they pay you twice Diplomacy: Sweet talk your way into getting more, or getting a gig in a better place Forgery: A great, underused skill in my opinion. Forge all sorts of documents - like an invitation to the King's Ball and so on Gather Information: Find out where the good neighborhoods are easily Intimidate: In 3.0, Small characters don't have a -4 penalty to this skill vs Medium characters, so you can threaten them to give you more cash Pick Pockets: (renamed Sleight of Hand in 3.5) Take a little extra without them knowing Sense Motive: Always have an idea how your audience feels Speak Language: Bard is the only core base class that has this skill as a class skill. It's an often overlooked little advantage of the class Of course, you'll want Perform - I assumed that was a given. Suggesting feats is more difficult without knowing what sources you have access to.
Puca 01-18-07, 11:06 AM	I dont know 3.0. All my stuff is 3.5, so take it for what it is worth. The thing is, both bards and rogues are so wide open with what they can do. There are a lot of options. What kind of rogue do you want to be? With skills, spells, and a high Cha, you could be a con-artist type. Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive are all key skills and on the lists of both rogues and bards. Intimidate will be a little less useful. Gather Info can go well with this, depending on how your DM adjudicates it. Be aware of synergies that can improve things in this area: Knowledge (royalty) for diplomacy for example. ________________________________ There is also the back stabber type. You are going to want to get that Weapon Finesse feat you mentioned (Dex to melee attacks) and then focus on movement: Tumble is key. You need to move into position to flank, and you dont want any AoOs. In addition, youll want to up your speed. Expeditions Retreat is a good spell for this. Consider the Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack chain. Your hit points are the biggest liability to this method. You must make yourself as hard to hit as possible. With only one level of rogue, this is probably not the way you are going to go. ________________________________ The sneaker: Hide, Move Silently are the key skills and, again, are on the class lists of both bards and rogues. But consider why and when you are going to sneak and hide? It is nice for archers and for scouts. ________________________________ Obstacle remover: Finding traps and eliminating them. Search, Disable Device, Open Lock. None of these are on the class list for bards, but with one level of rogue, you can have max ranks of character-level +3 any way. Investing in them at cross-class costs when you level as a bard is viable, but it cuts into your options considerably. You could add more rogue levels as needed. (That might not be a bad idea any way: youll want to do it if you desire to increase your SA, and Evasion is worth one more level at least.) ________________________________ The scout. Listen and Spot. This works well with the sneak, but you need a way to see. Darkvision and See Invisibility are good, but neither is on your class list. You could establish a working relationship with the party wizard, or rely on UMD and wands. There is a feat in CA that will let you get a familiar. I dont care much for pets, but the ability of familiars to use your ranks in skills makes them very good with certain classes like Bards. Check into it if you can. ___________________________ Wannabe caster. You are a caster, of course. Depending on your supplements, there are some great bardic spells. But with UMD you can open up a range of possibilities. Bluff, Knowledge Arcana, and Spellcraft are all skills you want to have at least a few ranks in if you go this route. You also have that racial bonus to illusions. An illusory wall between you and an opponent provides you with total concealment, which results in SA damage if you attack with a ranged weapon from the other side. Even if they “know” it is not a real wall, they still need to make a save to see past it. ________________________________ Sleight of Hand didnt fit anywhere in those groupings, but it is handy and sort of a stock “thief skill.” With your number of skill-points, you could pick and choose from at least two maybe three of these typical thief roles. Your bardic abilities open up the possibility of a knowledge guy. There are feats that can improve this and you only need 1 rank in a knowledge skill to make it workable, though as many as possible are better. Knowledge History boosts your Bardic Knowledge feature. Once you select a couple of skills sets to focus on, then look at the spells and feats that make the most of them. Thats what Id do anyway.
Zherog 01-18-07, 11:25 AM	I dont know 3.0. All my stuff is 3.5, so take it for what it is worth. ... With your number of skill-points, you could pick and choose from at least two maybe three of these typical thief roles. One thing from 3.0 that will matter for the last sentence: in 3.0, bards only received 4 skill points per level. This is offset, somewhat, by the fact that there's only one Perform skill.
Puca 01-18-07, 11:45 AM	Ouch. Even with a high Int, that cuts your options with my approach down to probably two at the most. You could solve that with more levels of rogue, and with neither rogue nor bard as favored classes, you will probably want to consider that anyway. Going every other level rogue, would average 6+int skill points per level, and you could make a con artist/obstacle remover (for example) work. Up you con-artist skills (Diplomacy, Bluff x2, Sense Motive, and Intimidate) on bard levels and your thief set (Search x2, Open Locks x2, Disable Device x2) Put left over skill points at rogue levels in Pick Pockets and Sense Motive, or whatever social skill you think is most important. Remember, the DC for Diplomacy is fixed, while the others are opponse check, meaning they are better to keep as high as possible. Just a thought.
Cromag 01-18-07, 02:35 PM	Weapon finesse is available in 3.0, however it is done for each weapon specifically, IE weapon finesse rapier does not help with daggers. Dual wielding requires 2 feats to be usable ambidexterity and 2 weapon fighting. I'm going to say this up front, I like bards, I am playing a bard now and have played them before... in 3.0 Bards are not good, that is why they were upgraded in 3.0. If you have your heart set on bard for 3.0 then don't take more than a 1 level dip in rogue (probably the first) and have a high int. the parts of the bard that are good require you to be mostly bard, or a PRC that helps them (such as virtuoso which is in 3.0). I would suggest looking through song and silence (3.0 bard/rogue book) for some helpful ideas. Good luck and have fun :)
CaoSlayer 01-18-07, 03:24 PM	Note: this post is 3.0 There is one thing that makes the 3.0 bard almost equal to his 3.5 counterpart: Spell selection. I recomend you to not take rogue levels because besides the xp penalty almost everything a rogue does but detecting traps a bard can do it also. If you want to be a rogueish bard you can use many spells. I recomend you from level 1 silent imagen because you can use it for a distraction or as coverture (silent imagen: stone wall work wonders). Ventroloquism also can help you, in conjution with invisibility allows you to make an enemy think you are somewhere else. And finally mage armor is a good armor because the lack of ASF or dex penalty. At level 2, glitterdust is godlike, it is a mass blindness that also helps you to spot invisible enemies. Hold person 3.0 is a level 2 save or die, nice if you have a very high charisma or spell focus enchantment. Darkness can save your party´s ass when outnumbered or when fighting against something powerful. The stat boosting spells are must have, specially cat grace if you go into weapon finese, a normal cast will grant you +4 dex for several hours. you will be more or less useful to the party until level 7, then you will become once per day god with 3.0 haste I repeat for enfasis: TAKE HASTE, an extra action each round is the equivalent to have two like you. I personally think that the best 3.0 bard is the caster one, if you take spell focus and greater focus with a high charisma, almost nobody will be able to resist your spells, a well placed hold person or confusion will end a fight quick. For a frontliner bard, the long time buffers are a must, that means, mage armor is a must, greater magic weapon is a must and bull´s str or/and cat´s grace is a must; haste is always a must.
devilin_west 01-19-07, 04:42 AM	Thanks for the help everybody. Its going to really help me make my character. i've decided instead of dual weilding or weapon finese im just taking a masterwork composite shortbow and the feats pointblank shot and precise shot, most likely with rapid shot next time i get a feat.
big_bluto 01-19-07, 08:42 AM	I've played a Gnome Bard/Rogue, right up to 15th level, and I have to say it's my favourite character of all time. I basically made him a total ego-maniac, almost a publcist, who had the party members convinced he was only an out of work tailor (high bluff). He was more prone to making up tales about himself than others, his Bardic knowledge checks consisted mostly of Knowledge: Local Babes/Bars and he was quite creative, frequently decorating the teams wagon to the equivalent of a rock stars tour bus, along with the Paladins armour. Pretty self-focussed, but intensely loyal to the party after they had saved his butt a couple of times. Steals mostly for fun, and views most things as a personal contest. Almost by accident ended up being the party spokesperson, but couldn't keep his mouth shut. Woke a sleeping dragon with the immortal words, "YO, GOODLY DRAGON....YOU GOT GOOD BOOTY!" :D This combination of classes and race gives you loads of scope to play a really character driven PC, not one focussed on stats, feats, or how much damage it can do.