Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZChango 11-05-06, 07:09 PM	So. My DM has been running a wonderful Greyhawk game every Friday for the past 2 months. Most of the characters involved have recently leveled to 5th (we started at 3rd). This last fateful session we had a random encounter we rolled where I had a run-in with the DM's botch chart. This is a wonderful device (sheet of paper with a chart) that he recieved from another DM we know of. Our DM has decided to make things more interesting when rolling 1's in combat, and everyone has seen this chart and has agreed that is has serious neat potential. What makes it as neat as it is, is that he adheres to the chart with not just us, but the traveling NPCs and the monsters and humanoids that we encounter at random or through story elements in fights. I couldn't really rattle it all off, but the basic idea is if you roll a 1, you reroll to see how bad a botch it is. If it's not a serious botch, you just lose your attack and all other attacks afterwards. If it goes to the charts then you roll percentage dice to see what happens. This last game though my Whisper Gnome Rogue/Fighter had a serious unfortunate turn of luck with the charts. It just so happens with the astronomically low chance of rolling exactly what I did, with a Piercing weapon (rapier to be specific), an eye was gouged out. Now I'm not here to vent as, like I said, everyone in the group agreed to the charts. I, in fact, would like to possibly see this character through still with this injury as the roleplaying possibilities in my mind are neat, and I truly like playing this character. I come to you guys hoping that you can assist me with what exactly losing an eye entails mechanically in game. I know it's probably going to affect combat and skill rolls and all that malarky, I would just like to know how. The DM has never had to deal with a PC losing something like that and dealing with it long term, and this situation in and of itself has prompted him to relook the charts and make sure he has the answer outright next time this happens. In the meantime, it just so happens he's gonna be away from home and away from his books for a week and won't be able to research it. So I have taken it upon myself to have a go at it. I have been pouring over several books and cannot seem to find these details. I was hoping you could at the least assist me what chapter in what books I may be able to find this information or if it even exists at all. :detect:
BigRobC101 11-05-06, 07:33 PM	personally theres no rules i can find for having only 1 eye, you could go for -2 on dex based skills, as you have lost depth perception, personally id then go for the mummy eye graft, so you get you site back. (and a spell like ability to boot) or just wear an eye patch and say Yarrrr alot at people
bholdr_mage 11-05-06, 07:34 PM	There's the "eye of Groomsh" PrC in like the players guide to faerun or one of those FR books. It deals with a half-orc that purposely takes an eye out to further his needs to the one-eyed god. There may be some penalties listed when he does this. I could see (pun intended) definitely a minus on spot and search checks (4 maybe) and up to a minus 4 on attacks; especially ranged. If you want to be realistic about this in any way, people with one eye have absolutely no depth perception, which is why ranged attacks and the like would be difficult. While the Role-playing of this type of negative could be cool for a while, I've a comment: Why on earth would you voluntarily take this type of penalty? Most people in my games aren't raising their hands going, "Ooh, Ooh, pick me! I want a -4 to my attacks. And even though I'm running around naked, can I take a -6 on my armor class?" This is the problem of a fumble chart. Especially with permanent fumbles. I like fumbles to a degree of like dropping weapons, or maybe even giving a free attack of opportunity; but gouging out an eye? That's a bit steep.
Pathanus 11-05-06, 07:36 PM	If you still have your eye mostly intact a simple Remove Blindness/Deafness spell would work for you... if not Regenerate or Heal might work for ya. I don't know if there would be any major penalty for having only 1 eye... penalty to spot checks and ranged combat maybe, but nothing major.
vbg17 11-05-06, 07:36 PM	Ya I think it is just a -2 penalty to sight based checks such as spot and search. And there are several grafts that could replace your missing eye with something even better.
ZChango 11-05-06, 07:52 PM	While I cannot promise a whole lot of "yarrr" from a character who originates from a hilly-forresty location, I *can* promise the use of an eyepatch until something better comes along. As rediculous as it sounds, for the first 30 seconds I was horrified about what just happened. Then it dawned on me, I will have the first character in our game that wears an eyepatch and not only that, it's from real in-game combat and not from the start from some background story. Although no one has currently tried that either. I will admit, it's a silly bit of nerdy pride to get that distinction that led me to think this is a great idea at least role-playing wise. As to the grafts and such, those are wonderful ideas, it's just, I'm level 5 and only have like 300 gold on hand. I will keep all in mind. Eye of Gruumsh? Good lord man, I'm a gnome! :tongue: I also would not be taking this so much voluntarily as much as, do I retire this guy and bring in my secondary character or do I do my best with this character, with as much flavor and coolness on top of the fact that he's now rather distinct to look at as well? The eye is gone, destroyed, borked so I am afraid with the cost prohibitive nature of magical means of replacement at my level, it's either deal with it or bring in the new character. All I'm asking for is not necessarily suggestions about what to do, as much as how exactly is this gonna effect my status as a front-line/skirmish fighter? I'm kinda seeing conflicting stuff (-2/-4) and just wanna know how it's going to effect my stats to weigh if I want to continue with it. Spot? Melee Attacks? Ranged Attacks? Search? Does it effect any feats I'm not aware of? Does it affect base stats like Dex or anything? Edit: And for those who would be understandably perturbed by the idea of simply listing it all, do you know of any books I can reference to that details what I'm asking about? I may not have all the d20 books, but I certainly have access to a plethora of them through my normal gaming group.
Nephlite 11-05-06, 07:58 PM	Eye of Gruumsh? Good lord man, I'm a gnome! :tongue: Gruumsh is accepting Gnomes, my how the might have fallen :D I also would not be taking this so much voluntarily as much as, do I retire this guy and bring in my secondary character or do I do my best with this character, with as much flavor and coolness on top of the fact that he's now rather distinct to look at as well? The eye is gone, destroyed, borked so I am afraid with the cost prohibitive nature of magical means of replacement at my level, it's either deal with it or bring in the new character. All I'm asking for is not necessarily suggestions about what to do, as much as how exactly is this gonna effect my status as a front-line/skirmish fighter? I'm kinda seeing conflicting stuff (-2/-4) and just wanna know how it's going to effect my stats to weigh if I want to continue with it. Spot? Melee Attacks? Ranged Attacks? Search? Does it effect any feats I'm not aware of? Does it affect base stats like Dex or anything? Edit: And for those who would be understandably perturbed by the idea of simply listing it all (which I could understand), do you know of any books I can reference to that details what I'm asking about? I may not have all the d20 books, but I certainly have access to a plethora of them through my normal gaming group. the 3.0 DMG listed what penalties to expect if eye is damaged. You'll need to look it up as I have no 3.0 DMG.
ZChango 11-05-06, 08:03 PM	Oh HO! I only have a 3.5 DMG, so I shall check my friend's 3.0 for this, I appreciate the suggestion.
TheFeds 11-05-06, 08:17 PM	From SRD Blinded: The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. As a DM, I'd say if you choose to remain blinded that a fair solution would be to reduce the penalties down to the penalties for being dazzled. I'd modify the text for dazzled to reflect that overstimulation in this case refers to a pointy object in the eye. From SRD Dazzled: The creature is unable to see well because of overstimulation of the eyes. A dazzled creature takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks.
AnonymousInternets 11-05-06, 08:35 PM	This sounds like a job for the Eye of Vecna! =D But in all seriousness, just get a caster to use a regeneration effect on you (I don't know of a spell that does it; even if there isn't any, most DM's will allow requests for special spell effects, assuming the caster is a high level) and it'll grow back.
ZChango 11-05-06, 08:40 PM	The thing is, I'm technically healed up outside of the removed, destroyed eye as we have two competent (PC and NPC) clerics. I do wish Remove Blindness/Deafness would work, but it wasn't just a poke in the eye, it was an unfortunate "stab, remove" sort of thing. Our clerics are only level 4 and 5 though, so regeneration is rather outside their capabilities. We may be able to find a cleric of sufficient level, but again the cost may be prohibitive. Now if I can't find something definitive I sure hope the text for dazzeled works for my DM, because I can live with a permanent -1 to attack rolls, Search and Spot to simply continue with a character who in all honesty doesn't really *require* Search or Spot to kick ass, and a that attack deficiancy wouldn't be murder to a character that is rather defensive in nature.
Diplominator 11-05-06, 09:09 PM	Actually, the 3.5 DMG has the same stuff. It's in the section on damage as a variant rule. I'd give a page number except I'm AFB. I know it is in there, though.
ZChango 11-05-06, 09:30 PM	Actually, the 3.5 DMG has the same stuff. It's in the section on damage as a variant rule. I'd give a page number except I'm AFB. I know it is in there, though. Oh HO once again! "Damage as a variant" helped me find the correct location from the index, thank you very much! Now me and the DM are gonna have to have a chat about the the rule of "toughing it out", although I don't think that really applies as, I am now out of combat and healed, so I'm not technically in any pain, just missing an eye. :eek: Now this brings up another question. If it states that "Dexterity checks" are affected does that simply mean anything that requires a roll and adds my Dex modifier? Or *anything* that Dex affects? Such as Dex bonuses to AC. It also looks like, up to DM's discretion, the book talks about your character being able to adapt to my situation and as such possibly lowring or removing certain penalties as the character adventures. This appeals to me, as just giving up on my first character that I personally built from the ground up would make me more sad than being minorly deficient.
pukunui 11-05-06, 09:31 PM	Just FYI, the eye of gruumsh PrC is in Complete Warrior. They get Blind-Fight as a bonus feat, and the text specifically mentions that having BF means they suffer no ill effects from having only one eye. As for the variant rule to which Diplominator refers, it's in the full-page sidebar on p. 27 of the DMG 3.5. The heading reads: "Variant: Damage To Specific Areas". The gist of the variant is: -2 penalty to any action requiring the use of the affected body part. In the specific instance of damage to one eye, the penalty would apply to the following actions: Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot checks; Survival checks (for tracking); initiative checks; Dexterity checks; ranged attack rolls; and Reflex saving throws. Now this brings up another question. If it states that "Dexterity checks" are affected does that simply mean anything that requires a roll and adds my Dex modifier? Or *anything* that Dex affects? Such as Dex bonuses to AC.A "Dexterity check" is exactly that ... a check made using nothing but your Dex modifier. You can make ability checks that aren't keyed to a specific skill. There are sections in both the PHB and the DMG that discuss ability v skill checks. That's why it lists all those other things, including initiative checks, separately.
ZChango 11-05-06, 09:40 PM	I will be less wordy with my question. Does the wording "Dexterity checks" mean that it would affect my Dexterity bonus to AC? I will be honest, that right there would probably be the deal breaker.
pukunui 11-05-06, 09:51 PM	I will be less wordy with my question. Does the wording "Dexterity checks" mean that it would affect my Dexterity bonus to AC? I will be honest, that right there would probably be the deal breaker. I thought my answer was clear, but I guess not. I'll try again. Here goes: No. It does not mean that. For one thing, you don't have to make a check to see if you get your Dex bonus to AC. It's just something that's always active so long as you're not flat-footed or otherwise denied the bonus. The only time the -2 penalty would apply in this instance is when the DM says "Make a Dexterity check." For help determining when he might say this, read the sections titled "Ability Checks" and "Save or Check?" on pp. 33-34 of your DMG 3.5.
ZChango 11-05-06, 10:01 PM	I thought my answer was clear, but I guess not. I'll try again. Here goes: No. It does not mean that. For one thing, you don't have to make a check to see if you get your Dex bonus to AC. The only time the -2 penalty would apply in this instance is when the DM says "Make a Dexterity check." Read the sections titled "Ability Checks" and "Save or Check?" on p. 33 of your DMG 3.5. If you need any more clarification, that's where you'll find it. I hope I didn't sound ungrateful above, it certainly was not my intention, I hope you can accept my apology if it did. I do very much thank you pukunui and everyone else that has replied to my original and subsequent posts, as it has greatly assisted in clarifying what myself and the DM are to do in the immediate future with my character. It more than likely will mean I will continue playing him. :dancin:
pukunui 11-05-06, 10:10 PM	I hope I didn't sound ungrateful above, it certainly was not my intention, I hope you can accept my apology if it did. I do very much thank you pukunui and everyone else that has replied to my original and subsequent posts, as it has greatly assisted in clarifying what myself and the DM are to do in the immediate future with my character. It more than likely will mean I will continue playing him. :dancin: Sorry if I came across as annoyed or put-out or anything. The answer just seemed pretty obvious to me. Glad you get it now. :D Have fun playing your one-eyed gnome! Who knows -- maybe it'll inspire your DM to come up with a quest for your gnome to get his full vision back - and not necessarily by getting a new natural eye either ... It's great when players can provide the impetus for new adventures.
BigRobC101 11-05-06, 10:56 PM	ZChango can you post up a copy of the fumble table, i have a player/dm that will love it.
pukunui 11-05-06, 10:58 PM	ZChango can you post up a copy of the fumble table, i have a player/dm that will love it. Me too. I'd like to see that chart.
draco1119 11-06-06, 03:00 AM	I hope I didn't sound ungrateful above, it certainly was not my intention, I hope you can accept my apology if it did. I do very much thank you pukunui and everyone else that has replied to my original and subsequent posts, as it has greatly assisted in clarifying what myself and the DM are to do in the immediate future with my character. It more than likely will mean I will continue playing him. :dancin: And now you can try to steal Jarlaxle's eyepatch from him! :P Seriously, see if you can get some sort of magic effect put on the eyepatch. Maybe an Eyepatch of Luck?
Caliborn 11-06-06, 08:13 AM	Eyepatch of Luck? Oh the irony... Kudos to you for sticking with your character and not being bothered by the mechanical penalties ZChango.
ShadowDragon8685 11-06-06, 09:07 AM	May your days hereafter be forever filled with critical fumbles until your gnome is one-eyed (or no eyed), hamstrung, lungless, toungeless, and generally unable to do anything. Any then you may realize that while a critical fumble table might once in a blue moon negatively effect the NPCs you have to fight with, it will be temporary, akin to hitting the BBEG with an Ennervation. Critical fumbles always screw the players in the end, akin to being on the wrong side of multiple level-draining attacks by a vampire.
RavingDork 11-06-06, 10:10 AM	How does one "accidently" stab themselves in the eye with a rapier? The length of the thing and the manner in which it is held would make it incredibly difficult I would think. How did your DM describe the blunder? Did you simultaneously drop your rapier, have it land point up as you tripped and fell on it? :confused:
Sulaco 11-06-06, 11:16 AM	Wait a minutes, you did this to yourself? You gouged out your own eye with a rapier? >Sigh< Yet another example of why fumble charts are the second-worst thing ever to happen to D&D (Lorraine Williams being the first).
tharivol266 11-06-06, 08:12 PM	i have to agree that the critical fumble rules are bad for the players in the long run. i use crit fumbles on attacks until they get their second attack (bab +5 is the last level of the fumbles) as for you dilema i have to say that i have shot a hand gun, a rifle, a paintball gin, countless bb shots, a composite bow and a crossbow and i must say the first thing you do when you go to aim is close one eye because you have to focus down the length and then to the target not just at the target so i wouldnt have and penalty on ranged attacks. i would just impose a penalty on some performance checks (juggling, dance, etc) and on spot and search checks
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-06-06, 08:23 PM	what class are you again? if you are a caster arn't you alowed to see with your familiar's eyes or something? in any case there are no rules on it, just like there are no rules for sneeking up on someone being more or less easy depending on the direction they are facing. the way I see it (with not one but two eyes:D is that; it is always assumed that you are looking ( or not, depending how you role) where you need to so i just would not bother changing anything.
Manic Man 11-06-06, 08:36 PM	How does one "accidently" stab themselves in the eye with a rapier? The length of the thing and the manner in which it is held would make it incredibly difficult I would think. How did your DM describe the blunder? Did you simultaneously drop your rapier, have it land point up as you tripped and fell on it? :confused: If he was striking in a stabbing manner and hit something that was coming towards him much stronger than he was going forward, (a swinging shield?) the reverse in in the weapon's movement might have cause the hilt to hit his eye. It sounds very rare, but he did say he rolled a very low possibility
pukunui 11-06-06, 09:43 PM	what class are you again? if you are a caster arn't you alowed to see with your familiar's eyes or something?The OP clearly stated his character is a rogue/fighter. in any case there are no rules on it ...Au contrare, there are rules for this, and they've already been mentioned in this thread (by myself and others). See page 27 of your DMG 3.5 under the heading "Variant: Damage To Specific Areas".
Sulaco 11-07-06, 09:16 AM	as for you dilema i have to say that i have shot a hand gun, a rifle, a paintball gin, countless bb shots, a composite bow and a crossbow and i must say the first thing you do when you go to aim is close one eye... Problem is, that is precisely the wrong thing to do and the first thing a qualified firearms instructor drills into your head is not to do it. You are supposed to keep both eyes open when firing. Though it is natural to do it with firearms, I cannot imagine why you would do it with bows and crossbows. When lining up your shot originaly, yes, but not when fine-tuning your aim and firing.
RavingDork 11-07-06, 11:19 AM	Problem is, that is precisely the wrong thing to do and the first thing a qualified firearms instructor drills into your head is not to do it. You are supposed to keep both eyes open when firing. Though it is natural to do it with firearms, I cannot imagine why you would do it with bows and crossbows. When lining up your shot originaly, yes, but not when fine-tuning your aim and firing. In the past I have had qualified professional firearms instructors tell me both ways and I oft wondered which instructor was right. What I do know, is that I am many times more accurate if I close one eye. What IS the benefit of using both exactly?
Sulaco 11-07-06, 11:56 AM	In the past I have had qualified professional firearms instructors tell me both ways and I oft wondered which instructor was right. What I do know, is that I am many times more accurate if I close one eye. What IS the benefit of using both exactly? Depth perception. Also, people have an "eyedness" the same way they have a handedness. If you should right but are left-eyed, say, then your shot will be off.
Cintra 11-07-06, 03:58 PM	Actually, it isn't true that you lose ALL depth perception when you lose one eye. There are two components to depth perception, only one of which relies on two eyes, the other of which works with your perception of relative movement (I forget the terminology right now). Close one eye and looking at something, then shift your head slightly, and you'll see a bit of how this works. I would say that your PC shouldn't be penalized at all on melee combat (particularly after the first couple of days, as he gets used to it). I could see a circumstance penalty to ranged combat, but probably only beyond 30 ft. And a -2 circumstance penalty to Spot checks would be reasonable given that the character's normal range of vision is reduced. I shouldn't think that anything else would be penalized. As a note, I've got a one-eyed cat that we recently rescued - his other eye suffered an injury and is completely clouded over. The only evidence of his injury in his behavior is that, when you reach for him from his "blind" side, he'll detect the movement with his peripheral vision and be slightly startled. He has no problems pouncing on a moving string, jumping up onto precarious surfaces, or anything else that we've seen so far.
Sulaco 11-07-06, 04:32 PM	Actually, it isn't true that you lose ALL depth perception when you lose one eye. There are two components to depth perception, only one of which relies on two eyes, the other of which works with your perception of relative movement (I forget the terminology right now). Close one eye and looking at something, then shift your head slightly, and you'll see a bit of how this works. It is called parallax. Losing an eye robs you of all depth perception. Parallax only aids you in depth interpretation. Problem is, it only works if you know precisely what you are looking at. Without binocular vision it is nearly impossible to distinguish between, say, a small thing close up but moving slowly and a big thing further away and moving quickly.
sicsemperjohn 11-07-06, 05:58 PM	It is called parallax. Losing an eye robs you of all depth perception. Parallax only aids you in depth interpretation. Problem is, it only works if you know precisely what you are looking at. Without binocular vision it is nearly impossible to distinguish between, say, a small thing close up but moving slowly and a big thing further away and moving quickly. 's is why birds often do a motion of bobbing their heads up and down. They can't get depth-accurate sight on things with their eyeballs on opposite sides of their heads, so some will bob up and down to create parallax.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-07-06, 06:17 PM	Wow I can't beleive I did'nt think of this sooner, just take blindfighting. If it is good enuf for not seeing in two eyes, it is going to be for one.
pukunui 11-07-06, 06:33 PM	Wow I can't beleive I did'nt think of this sooner, just take blindfighting. If it is good enuf for not seeing in two eyes, it is going to be for one. That's why orcs who take the Eye of Gruumsh PrC don't suffer any penalties for having only one eye -- they get Blind-Fight as a bonus feat.