Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snazzomancer 11-13-07, 09:03 PM	Even if it's goblin-to-goblin? In my campaign, I'm playing a hobgoblin rogue and have been enlisted in a quest to solve the "Hobgoblin problem". Apparently, the animals on the farm have been attacked/stolen and the townpeople know its hobgoblins goblins, they just don't have the manpower/resources to deal with it. The party (7 other players) have been trying to make plans to ambush the raiders during one of their night assualts. It's midday, and they figure there's a good chance the goblins will strike again tonight... This gives me about 8 hours to choose action. *With some Wis/Int rolls, the DM told me I got a good idea of where their camp may be. I figure it's gotta be within walking/hustling distance, and since I have a mount, scouring the area shouldn't be to much of a problem. If I don't find the encampment... should I help the party atack my kin? Sure, I'm lawful evil, but even evil characters have limits. If I do find it... would a diplomacy option even work. I may have more of a chance convincing them with some deal than any human will, but what could I offer them to stop the attacks. Would they have reason not to attack me. Should I come alone or with help? Other options are welcome -The Snazzomancer
Snazzomancer 11-13-07, 09:17 PM	Bump.
Grumman 11-13-07, 11:31 PM	I could see diplomacy working, but only if you can persuade them it is worth their while to leave. You could exaggerate the type of threat that they face, but you'd risk ruining the players' ambush.
MrCustomer 11-14-07, 12:02 AM	You are from a different tribe. Goblins as I understand it don't get along with other Goblins either. Likely you have little chance of persuading them unless you have either the force to intimidate them or else the resources to bribe them. You would have a better chance then others knowing the language and the customs, and they might trust you marginally better then a human or elf. However diplomacy rarely is effective against monsterous humanoids like Goblins, unless you are hiring them for something like attacking a nearby village. Even if you were successful, it would probably only last for a very short period of time, like untill your party left the area.
CryoSilver 11-14-07, 12:14 AM	If you use the actual Diplomacy skill, it'll take a DC 25 check to make them go from Hostile to Indifferent, or 15 to get them from Unfriendly to Indifferent. A -2 penalty may be appropriate on your roll.
Mad_Jack 11-14-07, 01:07 AM	Hobgoblins have no loyalty to tribes other than their own, so there'd be no real reason for your character to feel compelled to aid them or ease the situation. Lacking a tribe, your hobgoblin's party would most likely be the object of any loyalty he'd have to anyone other than himself. Hobgoblins are a LE militaristic society, so chances of working out a diplomatic solution are probably pretty slim, unless you can find something major to hold over the hobgoblins' heads, and for a lot longer than just the time your party's in town. The only real non-violent option is to establish a trade relationship between the two groups, but given that the two aren't of equal strength, eventually that relationship is going to break down when the hobgoblins get tired of trading for what they could just take. My advice would be to go find the camp, observe from a distance, and then start taking notes on their numbers and the layout of the site.
metalmayhem80110 11-14-07, 01:48 AM	Well, you're LE, so why do you care? If anything, I might be interested n joining the hobgoblins in raiding the town.
DrMorganes 11-14-07, 10:41 AM	Well, you're LE, so why do you care? If anything, I might be interested n joining the hobgoblins in raiding the town. Because evil <> stupid. A Lawful Evil anything will have an eye toward improving his own situation within an existing framework. For the OP, this could mean betraying his party and joining the raiders. It could also mean taking out the raiders and exploiting the resulting good will. Specific examples, however, will require the OP to post a portion of the character sheet in question. Level, ability scores, ranks in relevant skills, and a few notes on the character's personality will go a long way in helping us offer appropriate suggestions.
Snazzomancer 11-14-07, 03:45 PM	Because evil <> stupid. A Lawful Evil anything will have an eye toward improving his own situation within an existing framework. For the OP, this could mean betraying his party and joining the raiders. It could also mean taking out the raiders and exploiting the resulting good will. Specific examples, however, will require the OP to post a portion of the character sheet in question. Level, ability scores, ranks in relevant skills, and a few notes on the character's personality will go a long way in helping us offer appropriate suggestions. Exploiting the results for good... This exactly what I wanted to do, however, whatever I do seems to be a double edged sword for the following reasons. 1)If I help in the ambush, I may earn some kudos, but then lose much more once the townsfolk and other party members (Damn paladins) see me killing my own race without hesition. Contradictory one may say but then again, I'm the "monster" here. 2)If I don't help out, the townsfolk and many party members will be much more suspicious of me than they already are, maybe even going as far to accuse me of treason, and keep even a closer eye on me. Mad_Jack: Good idea. Will certainly put it to use. Grumman: Mayhaps I could trick them into attacking a certain area where the rest of the party will be waiting. MrCustomer: This is true. CryoSilver:We use an alternative system for diplomacy (The one on the Gian Tip website where OOtS is) As for info, we're all level 2 ('cept for me with LA). My stats are 12,16,16,14,12,14. I don't know everyone's class, but only a few would back me up without incident. A healer (Setting class), druid, and psion. Bluff:+6 Diplomacy:+3 Hide:+7 Move Silently:+8 Listen:+5
Dei 11-14-07, 04:19 PM	I agree with those who have asked why you'd be even remotely concerned with helping these hobgoblins out. Your tribal loyalty will be to the other PCs and they'll be no more surprised to see you killing other hobgoblins than you would be to see them killing other humans. If you were attacked by a human and the druid stepped in and beat him down would you be morally outraged? The PCs and townsfolk will not assume any familial or tribal connection between you and these bandits any moreso than you would between the other PCs and human bandits and will see nothing wrong with you not hesitating to slay them/drive them off alongside your comrades. As for accusing you of treason if you refused to help out. They'd be fully justified to do so. You threw your lot in with the party and agreed to aid them in what they were doing. Unless your character had a very powerful reason in his lawful code as to why he would not fight these hobgoblins then there's no good reason why you wouldn't that I can see.
Death-Knight 11-14-07, 04:31 PM	Got any casters???? Fools gold, Bribery!
Snazzomancer 11-14-07, 05:01 PM	I agree with those who have asked why you'd be even remotely concerned with helping these hobgoblins out. Your tribal loyalty will be to the other PCs and they'll be no more surprised to see you killing other hobgoblins than you would be to see them killing other humans. If you were attacked by a human and the druid stepped in and beat him down would you be morally outraged? The PCs and townsfolk will not assume any familial or tribal connection between you and these bandits any moreso than you would between the other PCs and human bandits and will see nothing wrong with you not hesitating to slay them/drive them off alongside your comrades. As for accusing you of treason if you refused to help out. They'd be fully justified to do so. You threw your lot in with the party and agreed to aid them in what they were doing. Unless your character had a very powerful reason in his lawful code as to why he would not fight these hobgoblins then there's no good reason why you wouldn't that I can see. No one said anything about being morally outraged. I simply don't want to build a "he's so savage he'd brutalize his own kin" reputation. Besides just because I happen to know alot about goblin culture doesn't mean the party or rest of the world does. As far as any of the villagers care, all goblins are there a same and the best ones are dead ones.
Dei 11-14-07, 05:35 PM	No one said anything about being morally outraged. I simply don't want to build a "he's so savage he'd brutalize his own kin" reputation. Besides just because I happen to know alot about goblin culture doesn't mean the party or rest of the world does. As far as any of the villagers care, all goblins are there a same and the best ones are dead ones. Morally Outraged was too strong a wording I'll admit. But which stance are the villagers and PCs more likely to adopt. A,"he's so savage he'd brutalize his own kin" one or a "he's so savage he'll stand by and allow a helpless village to be pillaged and raided". My guess would be the latter. As I said, I doubt they'll see any difference between you fighting these bandits and the paladin fighting human bandits (well except maybe that they won't expect the paladin to ask for payment first :P).
Snazzomancer 11-15-07, 03:53 PM	Alright then. I guess the plan is to scout for their camp, count the numbers if I find it, and ambush them there if possible. One more intersting thing. I'm am the only person in the party with darkvision. That means by staying at the farm , the rest of the players will need some form of light to see, and I have no doubt the at least one of the fools are going light torches/sunrods. Is there a way to exploit this to my advantage?
SilverFoxKnows 11-15-07, 07:27 PM	Alright then. I guess the plan is to scout for their camp, count the numbers if I find it, and ambush them there if possible. One more intersting thing. I'm am the only person in the party with darkvision. That means by staying at the farm , the rest of the players will need some form of light to see, and I have no doubt the at least one of the fools are going light torches/sunrods. Is there a way to exploit this to my advantage? Yes. Travel well away from the torch light. The Hobs will be watching the Humans and, hopefully, not you. You might be able to sneak close enough to lob a molotov cocktail at the Hobs. That will also give the Humans a light source close to the enemy while maybe doing some dmage. Just be careful, because your friends could easily mistake you for one of the bandits.
Snazzomancer 11-16-07, 10:05 PM	Yes. Travel well away from the torch light. The Hobs will be watching the Humans and, hopefully, not you. You might be able to sneak close enough to lob a molotov cocktail at the Hobs. That will also give the Humans a light source close to the enemy while maybe doing some dmage. Just be careful, because your friends could easily mistake you for one of the bandits. How can I prevent this, I've only got 9 hitpoints even with a constitution of 16, and I don't want to be put in the negatives because of "Shadowy Illumination" crap.
SilverFoxKnows 11-17-07, 05:48 PM	How can I prevent this, I've only got 9 hitpoints even with a constitution of 16, and I don't want to be put in the negatives because of "Shadowy Illumination" crap. Use cover as much as possible. It's not fool proof but should keep you from taking a few hits. If you have a crossbow you can fire while prone. You've got a good Dex, shoot from as far away as possible (forget the molotov). Shoot and Hide, if you can. Tell your team "I'm going to be on top of that ridge/ in that tree/ behind that boulder". That will also help with friendly fire. Then they know you're well away from the enemy and can fire at will. Rough terrain will help you, they can't charge you. High ground is good, too. Make 'em Climb to get you, shoot at 'em the whole time. 14 Int is pretty smart, fight smart. There are old warriors and bold warriors but very few old, bold warriors.
femmelf 11-18-07, 08:17 PM	First off, I don't know your game world but This doesn't look good for diplomacy. These goblins are raiding for a living and unless they get a good reason not to anymore, they're probably going to keep on doing it. I mean, I can't imagine a reason why they would all of a sudden start respecting property rights of the farmers after raiding them without a care. As for if you should help your party deal with this (violently as a rule).... I'd go with yes unless you have a reason not to do so. Why would you have a problem with this. Humans mess with other humans all the time. You're LE. Unless it breaks some part of your personal code, I'd say go for it. How to pull it off. Hide/Sneak Attack, or tumble/flank/sneak attack. Stick next to the fighter. He is the meatsheild. Let him do his job and soak up all that damage for you. Just flank.... This gives you both a +2 to hit and lets you sneak attack. Try to use terrain against these hobs as much as you can. Draw them out if your character has the brains for it.... To recap: Diplomacy seems doomed here. You might not be :D Femmelf.
pres_man 11-19-07, 05:25 PM	Turn 2 problems into 1 solution. Farmers are having a hard time with things attacking their stuff. Hobgoblins need to get stuff. See if you can convince the farmers to pool their resources and hire the hobgoblins to guard their stuff instead of taking it. A large part of their pay would probably be room (some barn or something donated by the farmers) and board. If that doesn't look likely then I would say that these hobgoblins aren't acting too honorable (sneaking around at night), being LE, that might be offensive to you, especially because they are hobgoblins (goblins and bugbears act that way, not hobgoblins!) Tell them that if they continue their (elfish) behaviour you will have to put them down. Leave them to think about it. If you are mounted and they are not, it shouldn't be too hard to ride up make a statement and ride away.
Snazzomancer 11-20-07, 06:17 PM	What went down: returned from my search unsucessful to find the party in battle with the hobgoblins -They all drop in a few rounds and we end up with two unconcious goblins -The paladin, artificer, and monk awaken one of the goblins and try and get it to submit to verbal oaths (Since it didn't write) and "redeem" it -After 15+ minutes (Real time) My character finds that things were getting pretty rediculous and quickly ends the unconcious goblins life -The aforementioned 3 become upset, and when asked why I did what I did, my reply was simple: the goblin was going to either A)Go on trial and be executed (painfully) B)Spend rest of it's life in jail; and that the chances of it agreeing to the vows were very slim -They try and defend the other goblin, so realizing that killing it at the moment would get me no where I drop my bow and state I will "Cut it free" instead -They agree, and the moment the goblin takes off running, the monk punches it into submission -My character moves toward the goblin, since the other 3 were unwilling to admit to the deal, and a get a quick sword to the chest from the paladin (7 damage) -After being healed (Healer) I ask the paladin why he attacked me and why the monk did not keep his end of the bargain. Monk gives me a "Meh" and the paladin and artificer make more excuses. I ask the paladin why he didn't stop the monk and he tells me he about "cutting him free" (Literal interpretation of what I've said earlier). When asked about this manipulation of this harmless honorable bargain and the specifics of his code... Well, he's unwilling to reply. -They continue to argue about what they should do, (Back to square #1) and I try and get my point across one more time, and I'm pummeled into unconciousness once more (Revived by CLW). Disgusted, I leave to collect my reward. Despite all of this, I a few interesting things have come out of the session. -Group "split": Although it didn't come about in a happy manner, things were a little to much for the DM (Hopefully we'll have a Co-DM next week to monitor the other party) -Alignment reprecussions: Ima talk to the DM about this next time around, since after this I have a feeling the alignments of the "trifling trio" may be in danger of shifting -NPC Ally???: If they try and jail the hogoblin (Most likely) I think and interesting option would be to bail him out and offer him pay as a hireling to adventure with us. I figure this is a good option because, A)Makes character "win" the "moral" battle and B)Adds some beef to our group. Why should he join us you say? Loot or the noose.
Snazzomancer 11-20-07, 06:21 PM	I think that's it's... Any other input is more than welcome.
Snazzomancer 11-22-07, 12:05 AM	Bump.