Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mera'din 04-21-04, 12:15 PM	I am very new to DnD, as some of have probably guessed by now. In fact, I have only played in five sessions. In a few of my other posts some people raised some good points about my charater that I would like some input on. One person said "If you are taking melee damage with your archer, you're doing something wrong." Maybe I am. What are some good battle tactics for my caotic good elven archer. He has a +2 str, a +4 dex, +3 bab, point blank, weapon focus, and rapid shot. I can't remember what skill ranks he has. I am looking for battle tactics advice, such as hide and shoot or anything.
burning_blood 04-21-04, 12:50 PM	My current character is my first archer-type, so I've been trying to figure this out too. Sniping (hiding & shooting) is one option, but only if you have a very good hide skill -- that -20 really hurts, plus you only get one attack per round. Use the terrain as best you can. If you're all standing in the open, then there's not really much you can do to prevent your enemies from waltzing right past the party's fighter(s) and swarming the more vulnerable archers and spell-casters. So don't stand in the open; climb a tree (to get out of reach), duck behind a wall or door (to get total cover or force them to provoke AoO from your allies to get to you), that sort of thing. If you're lightly armoured (which you should be), then you're probably faster than your opponent, so it shouldn't be too hard to stay out of their reach. Shoot, move, let them chase you (but not quite catch up to you), repeat. It might take a while but you'll wear them down eventually. Depending on your weapon you can be standing a few hundred feet away from your target and still take only a small penalty to your attack.
elf killer 32 04-21-04, 01:05 PM	Hiding up in a tree is a deadly archery tactic. However, if your in a standard dungeoun set up, I suggest you get the shot on the run feat,(in the PHB). It allows you to literally run circles around your enemies, as well as being able to get within the 30ft necessary for Point blank shots and weapon focouses bonous. Assuming your a fighter, with a fighters hit die, and your strength bonous, I would think you should invest some feats in meelee combat to increase your versatitlity.
Albert Dante 04-21-04, 01:18 PM	Put some powerful defensive mechanisms to work for you. These will block hits, prevent your ennemy from following you as they please, and hurt 'em bad while they are at it. They're called... Meat shields (AKA standard melee fighters/barbarians, paladins will do, so will clerics, rogues are only okish) Stand in the back, and shoot between them. Get the precise shot feat, it will help lots Here's an example of the battlefield: B = Baddies E = Empty M = MeatShields A = Archer BBBE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE MEME EAEE You could stand a bit more to the back too If the enemy comes from the front, it can't go past the melee guys wihtout taking extra movement to go around them or taking attacks of opportunity. Then you can shoot between the warriors, or to the sides. Useful, especially in corridors if an ennemy catches up to you, take a 5-ft step to have your full attack without AoO, or if his full attack is worse than yours, fall back a move and shoot him once (or multiattack him). He'll be denied his full attack. I'm no expert, myself, but it seemed like most of the ideas revolved around an archer alone in his party, which in most D&D games is not the case. Take advantage of sword fodder... erhm meatshields.. erhm *cough*, teamwork, yeah take advantage of teamwork
Pathanus 04-21-04, 01:28 PM	Is your character a fighter, ranger, cleric, etc.? I would rely on allies and terrain for shielding and fire away at the enemies. If you can fly somehow (spells, wings, items, mount, etc.) melee opponents will be easy to ignore. Stay away from melee if you can, and utilize the range of your bow (composite lb is 110 ft range increment) so you can be 70+ feet away from most humanoids and be out of charge range. Give some more info on your char for more help. Path
krichaiushii 04-21-04, 03:00 PM	An option MIGHT be to splash some levels of sorcerer or wizard, to enable the use of mobility and defensive magic- and True Strike. You will never need anything beyond 2d level spells (Cat's Grace and See Invisibility), so a 12 in your spellcasting statistic is fine. This opens up the usage of certain wands, as well. By mobility magic, I mean spells such as Expeditious Retreat, Jump, and Spider Climb. Defensive magic is best defined as Shield. If you are constantly finding yourself being drawn into melee, consider the Quickdraw feat, to better arm yourself against those that grapple and bullrush. Another useful feat is Improved Initiative - going first is always helpful. As others have said, try to stay in the rear of battle and take advantage of the terrain. Be it the high ground bonus, cover bonuses to your AC, or simply staying out of your opponents' reach, the terrain can work for you. I second Pathanus' question - what is the specific class of your archer?
lotterybucks 04-21-04, 07:38 PM	if you are outside, get brachiation (Masters of the Wild) and swing through the trees. Snipe away with your bow. Depending on your party, it might be nice just to stand in the dungeon corner shooting arrows at the bad guys.
Tony Vargas 04-21-04, 08:04 PM	Originally posted by Mera'din I"If you are taking melee damage with your archer, you're doing something wrong." Or your party's doing something wrong. It's not quite as improtant to protect archers from melee as it is to protect the arcanists - the archer is prettymuch gauranteed to have more hps and melee ability than the sorc/wiz - but it is a good idea. If your party is just shy of melee-types - if you're the only fighter, for instance - then you should, indeed, pick up Quickdraw an pick out a good melee weapon, because it's going to fall to you to engage the enemy at times. Otherwise, in a dungeon setting, where space is fairly restricted, you should be able to take up a position behind the party's Fighter/barbarian/paladin/whatever and support them with bow shots, or take shots past the 'front lines' at enemy casters and archers. Precise Shot (and, if you can ever get it, Improved Precise Shot) are very good to have for this purpose. So is a bit of height, if that can be arranged. In the open, it's harder to set up a 'fighter wall,' so enemies are more likely to get at you - but, it's also petty likely the encounter distance will start farther out, so you'll have more of an oportunity to attack at range as the enemy closes. You also might be able to climb trees or take a position on a ledge or something, to make yourself a bit harder to reach. Also, in the open, you can use Mounted Archery - it's two feats, but you have to be able to outrun a mounted archers /horse/ to catch him or get away from him (and that 'horse' could be a hippogriff).
BlaineTog 04-21-04, 08:13 PM	Hmm. Flight is definatelly your best bet. Winged Boots are probably the cheapest item of it you'll find, but that is a few levels away yet. At 5th level, ask your wizard to learn fly and cast it on you at the beginning of every battle. At 7th, have his use [i]overland flight[/.i] and he'll only have to cast it once per day (at most 2x). Mind you, all of this is probably not available to you just now. Until then, stay mobile. If you full attack, use your 5-foot step every single round.
Elrana 04-21-04, 08:14 PM	For the time being move and shoot, if possible try to pick up some boots of striding and springing (the extra 10' movement makes a huge difference) and work toward having shot on the run and many shot by the time you have a bab of 6. Once money starts building up you can't get better than winged boots (or equivalent); for an archer or a mage they are an unbelievably valuable piece of kit.
devinmdp 04-21-04, 08:17 PM	Invest in a light warhorse. You too can move 120 feet in a round and fire your full attack AT NO PENALTY! No one will catch you. Trust me. Yeah, doesn't work in a dungeon, but is truly ridiculous out of doors. Devin
celloshane 04-22-04, 01:09 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Hmm. Flight is definatelly your best bet. Winged Boots are probably the cheapest item of it you'll find, but that is a few levels away yet. At 5th level, ask your wizard to learn fly and cast it on you at the beginning of every battle. At 7th, have his use overland flight and he'll only have to cast it once per day (at most 2x). Mind you, all of this is probably not available to you just now. Until then, stay mobile. If you full attack, use your 5-foot step every single round. Couple things, first Overland Flight has a range of personal so a wizard/sorcerer could only cast in themself. Flight is an excellent archer tactic, but long before you're able to afford Winged Boots you should be able to get your hands on Boots of Levitation. Not to mention that Levitation is on command rather than 3 times a day. Striding and Springing Boots are good as well, the main point is Stay out of reach. There's always the possibility that you'll be forced into melee, so it doesn't hurt to spend a feat or two being prepared for that fact. Since your bow isn't likely to be effective against undead, a nice morningstar or similar weapon makes an excellent backup. Later down the road when you can afford it, I suggest investing in Spell Storing arrows. They're expensive, especially since arrows aren't always recoverable, but you'll likely get more out of 50 Spell Storing arrows than a melee fighter would get out of a Spell Storing sword; and since you can store a different spell in each arrow, you can have an arrow for every occasion. "Lets see, the Red arrows are Contagion, the Blue arrows are Dispel Magic, the Yellow arrows are Bestow Curse, the Black arrows are ...."
KAPtain Braindead 04-22-04, 03:54 AM	First off, get a composite longbow (+2) ASAP. Next, unless you are a small creature, always go with the longbows. Better range & damage makes more sense. Always have a melee weapon that can be drawn quickly. In dungeons you can't always count on having space to fire. And you shouldn't worry about hand to hand combat. You have a +2 to hit and damage, plus an attack of opportunity since they'll be charging you. I'd suggest a morningstar, it's a cheap simple weapon and does two types of damage. With swarms of low hit die monsters, pull a SGT. York. Durring WWI, York would shoot the rear most enemy first then the next rear most. This helps prevent the swarming enemies from realizing they are outnumbered by the time they reach the party. If you kill the front most ranks, the enemy realizes how many were lost and may retreat and regroup.
Albert Dante 04-22-04, 12:12 PM	Sorry KAPtain, I'm afraid there is no AoO for charging, unless the person being charged took the Hold the Line feat from CW and is currently wielding a melee weapon. Neither is the case for most archers. anyways, I might choose a warhammer and shield as secondary weapon, because of the better critical multiplier, over the morningstar, but it might just be a prejudice I have vs simple weapons. However, if you are thinking of getting a +5 bonus to dex anytime soon you might want to pickup the weapon finesse feat and a finessable weapon, like a rapier. You'd be able to use your dex bonus to attack for melee attacks with the rapier (or any light weapon). The drawback is the rapier is also a piercing weapon, just like your arrows, and not so useful vs undeads
Naeron 04-22-04, 12:58 PM	Originally posted by Albert Dante Sorry KAPtain, I'm afraid there is no AoO for charging, unless the person being charged took the Hold the Line feat from CW and is currently wielding a melee weapon. Neither is the case for most archers. <snip> Unless the Archer takes a reach weapon in which case someone moving from further than 10ft away will always draw an AoO. And a reach weapon is a good idea in any case as even Quickdraw only allows you to draw weapons not shields so a 2 handed weapon is a good idea. You might then consider Combat Reflexes and then Combat Expertise and Improved Trip/Improved Disarm if you can spare the feats as this really limits the chance of the enemy making effective attacks and as an Archer you probably would will not have spent the feats to shine in melee combat. But with three feats you can really drop the enemies potential to attack you so your own lesser melee ability still gives you the edge.
Tony Vargas 04-22-04, 01:17 PM	For backup arms, there are three options: a buckler (no penalties when using your bow) and a light or one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or two-weapon-fighting. If you have feats to burn, TWF with a pair of light, finessed, weapons can be a pretty good option, but it's focused on offense and making full attacks, not on avoiding damage - though, if you really have feats to burn you could also take Two-Weapon Defense, and fight defensively. If you want to stick to archery feats a buckler and a one-handed martial weapon (longsword or whatever) will let you do decent damage and get a bit more AC - this also has the advantage of allowing you to hold onto your bow, rather than dropping it, when you enter melee (you can technically still hold your bow in the buckler hand, while using the buckler to defend yourself). With weapon & buckler, you could also go with a finessed light weapon (as long as it's a masterwork buckler, there's no penalty) - that weapon could even be a spiked guantlet (or armor spikes) if you want to avoid having to draw it. If you go with a two-handed weapon, you can do more damage with each hit with something like a greatsword, or, you can try to discourage attackers with a reach weapon, like a guisarme - again, the latter will be more feat intensive, as you'll want Combat Reflexes, and, maybe, other feats like Improved Trip.
Albert Dante 04-23-04, 11:55 AM	Originally posted by Naeron Unless the Archer takes a reach weapon in which case someone moving from further than 10ft away will always draw an AoO. And a reach weapon is a good idea in any case as even Quickdraw only allows you to draw weapons not shields so a 2 handed weapon is a good idea. You might then consider Combat Reflexes and then Combat Expertise and Improved Trip/Improved Disarm if you can spare the feats as this really limits the chance of the enemy making effective attacks and as an Archer you probably would will not have spent the feats to shine in melee combat. But with three feats you can really drop the enemies potential to attack you so your own lesser melee ability still gives you the edge. The archer will probably be using a bow, not a reach weapon, when the opponent closes in, unless he saw it coming and prepared a round in advance. I'm pretty sure you can only use Quick draw on your own turn, even if it is a free action.
Mera'din 04-23-04, 02:46 PM	Thank's for all the advice. I was actually looking for what to do while in combat, I have to survive in order to get feats and gold to buy new weapons. I'll condsider the feat advice as well.
Sisyfos 04-23-04, 03:03 PM	Originally posted by Mera'din Thank's for all the advice. I was actually looking for what to do while in combat, I have to survive in order to get feats and gold to buy new weapons. I'll condsider the feat advice as well. The basic advice has already been given: - Fly - Be invisible - Move faster than your opponents (if both move their full move you have not lost anything as you have taken one or more opponents of your party's back for that round). - Get a mount (obsidian steed is amazingly good for archers). - When opponents get to melee range, either 1) start to melee, 2) take 5 foot steps out of reach and keep on shooting or 3) retreat from melee. Sisyfos
Bjorn the Wanderer 04-24-04, 01:28 AM	Take ranks in tumble. You can get out of combat for that continued ranged attack with out taking the AoO for moving out of a threatened square and going farther then 5 feet.
KAPtain Braindead 04-25-04, 07:00 AM	Originally posted by Sisyfos The basic advice has already been given: - Fly - Be invisible - Move faster than your opponents (if both move their full move you have not lost anything as you have taken one or more opponents of your party's back for that round). - Get a mount (obsidian steed is amazingly good for archers). - When opponents get to melee range, either 1) start to melee, 2) take 5 foot steps out of reach and keep on shooting or 3) retreat from melee. Sisyfos Invisiblity, as per the spell, automaticly ends when you attack. Invisablity, Greater is needed to stay invisible while attacking. Mounts usually don't like dungeons. Also, consider how high the ceiling is-this applies to the fly suggestion as well. Also, always pick off the enemy spell casters and archerers first (in that order). This goes hand in hand with my SGT York suggestion above.
Michaelot 04-26-04, 07:10 PM	I think you have been given some good suggestions so what is one more. Whenever possible take the HIGH GROUND. This may not seem like a very useful suggestion, but it depends. This idea does not require money or spells or vast experience. What this will get you is a higher position that allows you to be in a fairly good defended area. When I play any archer, the DM I am playing with, just knows that everywhere we go I am going to ask "Where is cover?" and "Where is higher ground." Additionally, my party knows that it is in their best intrest to allow me to fire a couple of volleys into enemies to weaken them for them and possibly bring a few down. If you are on higher ground and the terrain is steep or difficult it will take your enemy twice the movement to reach you and you can sit up there with your carnal security firing away until your hearts delights in the split blood of your foes, until they run, or you drop the pathetic attackers for daring to get you in your world...that is the high ground world. Additionally if one is lucky enough to get past your mulitple volleys and is still charging towards you, there is the fact that you are on higher ground and will get a +1 to all you melee attacks should you have to resort to it. The best combination is to have a horse, (only 75 gp but well worth the life saver) and ride to higher ground. When your opponent gets too close, get on your horse and ride a little higher or away and then continue the firing. Of course there are tons of feats you can get that will help you with all of this, but those things you will have to decide on your own. This works ideally for plains and other open areas, but there is higher ground in caves too and as a general rule makes shooting easier because you don't have to worry about hitting your own party members since you are firing about them not directly behind them. Additionally, if you DM allows you to alter/enhance some of rules based upon natural laws and physics that you can prove you can convice him to give you a greater range with you weapon when on higher ground, +1 to +2 (depending on height) damage seeing the arrows have more rate to fall...there is also the negative that the higher you are the more likely wind is going to interfere with you accuracy so you might suffer a few points on that, of course this is all accoring to your DM. One last suggestion that can be used is Team Work. If you are suffering from getting the crap beaten out of you when you face your foes then your party is not doing their job and you are not doing yours. Your job as a low level archer is to snipe, weaken, and mame your enemies making them easier to kill, not for you to take them out alone. You should have a strong "clean up fighter" by your side, who can charge or attack in melee for you as you fire volleys into your foes back and head. This type of play creates a powerful group and makes things pretty fun as you can cover each other butts. You know the whole pride and bragging rights....there is nothing like shooting someone in the head just as he was about to whack your friend in the back from behind.
RodIshiCi 04-27-04, 06:23 AM	It'd be good if you could detail what do you usually fight, where, and what your party is composed of. A lone archer should employ different tactics from one within a party full of spellcasters, or one full of melee types. With the former, is easier to emply hit and run tactics, the later will only allow to being hit in melee if your enemies are really serious about taking you away or your party don't like you. :P One tip that works with all those 3 set ups is to strike first and from a good distance. For the lone archer, try to master spot/listen, hide, climb and get Far Shot feat. Try to keep the maximum distance as possible and try to remain uncovered if you can. You cannot be hit if enemies don't know where you are, nor if you stay out of reach. For the one within a melee party, just get Precise Shot feat (far better than Weapon Focus in this case), and try to stay in a position where enemies need to get past the melee-types before getting to you, and if they get in melee reach, just move back and try to put the melee types between you and the enemy again. If the rest of the party cooperates, this should be easy. If you're in a party without anyone who could stand between you and the enemies (party full of rogues, arcane spellcasters and low-HP cleric), either all of you coordinate your actions to attack and retreat each round or you'll have to play the protector. Since your AC isn't bad, chances are that you won't be hit that much, but ask for anyone with healing capacity to stand right behind you and heal on demand. Try to get into the Order of the Bow Initiate Prestige Class when you're high level enough if you need to stand in the front, so you can get the Close Combat Shot special ability and won't need to move back every round to shoot without causing AoO, specially when you start to face enemies with reach. If you and your party decide to go for the hit and run approach, it's just a matter of keeping a good distance from the enemy (usually, 100ft is enough, unless enemy is really a fast mover). Use lightwarhorses if you need and can, and don't be greedy to dish a full-round attack if you don't have enough distance and the rest of the party will retreat far more than you. If spellcasters keep casting medium or long range spells and you all attack and retreat, it should be easy to win, unless the enemy has superior ranged capacity, then closing could actually be a good idea (if their melee capacity is inferior of that of your party), else you should run to avoid death. :P
Sondur Dragonbane 04-27-04, 02:11 PM	What class are you? What level(s) are you? I prefer fighters to rangers when it comes to playing apure archer. Elves make decent archers due to the +2 Dex but suffer slightly in the hp area due to the -2 Con. Humans get that bonus feat at 1st level giving the human fighter 3 feats at 1st level to play with. In combat unless you provide us with a complete character build of you guy it is very hard for us to give you combat tips. Also someone else already asked as well but what is the rest of the group comprised of?
J_Riley 05-11-04, 10:00 AM	Since I am playing a low level archer, I would like to throw him in here and see if I can get any specific advice. I have read the whole thread and every other archer related thread I can hunt down. A few questions I have, can you tumble away with your bow in hand? Can I draw my longsword and fight while holding my bow in the other? What are the risks to my bow? (eventually it will be a fairly expensive +3 to STR composite longbow) Can I tumble away with a weapon in BOTH hands? (i.e. bow and sword) The PC in question: Elf S16 D16 C12 I14 W11 C9 As mentioned above, he will have some classes in Wizard for a little 'self help'. In fact, he is about to gain a level (he's currently 1st) and I am debating on whether to go FTR1/WIZ1 or wait and go FTR2. I'd really like to have the magic ASAP (just a personal thing), but here are his current feats/skills: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Skills: Climb +2, Concentration(cc) +1, Jump +1, Craft(bowmaking) +1, Ride +1, Survival(cc) +2, Heal(cc) +2, Swim +1 If I go FTR2, he'll pick up Precise Shot for a feat and add a rank of Tumble and a couple to Craft (I need craft(10) for Peerless Archer PrC, where he's headed) See the total build here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230846) Thanks!
Krelios 05-11-04, 10:39 AM	Invest in a light warhorse. You too can move 120 feet in a round and fire your full attack AT NO PENALTY! Ummmm.... No... Your warhorse making a double move is a -8 penalty to hit, unless you take Mounted Archery, which reduces it to a -4. Even if you do, you still can't get a full attack if you (or your mount) have moved at all--you're limited to a standard action (a single attack, or manyshot).
Elrana 05-11-04, 11:45 AM	Since I am playing a low level archer, I would like to throw him in here and see if I can get any specific advice. I have read the whole thread and every other archer related thread I can hunt down. A few questions I have, can you tumble away with your bow in hand? Can I draw my longsword and fight while holding my bow in the other? What are the risks to my bow? (eventually it will be a fairly expensive +3 to STR composite longbow) Can I tumble away with a weapon in BOTH hands? (i.e. bow and sword) Yes you can tumble while holding a bow. Yes you can keep your bow in one hand and fight with a longsword in the other. The risks to your bow are minimal, even if your opponent wants to sunder you he will be thinking about the long sharp piece of metal you keep sticking in him at that point, not the useless bent bit of wood he has already negated the value of by moving in close. Yes you can tumble with a weapon in both hands. The PC in question: Elf S16 D16 C12 I14 W11 C9 As mentioned above, he will have some classes in Wizard for a little 'self help'. In fact, he is about to gain a level (he's currently 1st) and I am debating on whether to go FTR1/WIZ1 or wait and go FTR2. I'd really like to have the magic ASAP (just a personal thing), but here are his current feats/skills: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Skills: Climb +2, Concentration(cc) +1, Jump +1, Craft(bowmaking) +1, Ride +1, Survival(cc) +2, Heal(cc) +2, Swim +1 If I go FTR2, he'll pick up Precise Shot for a feat and add a rank of Tumble and a couple to Craft (I need craft(10) for Peerless Archer PrC, where he's headed) See the total build here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230846) Thanks! PBS is well worth having as soon as possible, and is an equally useful feat for a wizard as an archer. By that logic it can be of no harm at all to increase your BAB, your hit points and get another feat earlier, and learn Magic Missile later!
jack haas 05-11-04, 01:45 PM	ok, here's a couple of pretty stupid archer questions: 1. can i shoot through an occupied square? is there a cover situation for the person i am shooting at when doing so? 2. when i cast greater magic weapon on my bow and on 50 arrows, do the bonuses stack? 3. (the main reason i decided to hijack this thread) why would a bow be inneffective against undead any more than any other weapon? thanks. what i really need is a smiley wearing a teeny-tiny dunce cap *L*
Beamup 05-11-04, 01:50 PM	1. Yes and yes. 2. No. 3. It isn't.
krichaiushii 05-11-04, 01:58 PM	Elrana - I would recommend taking fighter as your next level. For the bonus feat. This bonus feat might be Improved Initiative, another bow-related feat, or Quickdraw - but only if you are often forced into melee. At level 3, take your wizard level and consider putting your level 3 feat into Skill Focus Concentration, Skill Focus Tumble, or Improved Initiative. And Jack Haas - a few undead have DR 5/bludgeoning (skeletons) or 5/slashing (zombies). As a bow does piercing damage, and rarely (at least at early levels) more than five damage, they are much less effective against these undead.
Xychotic 05-11-04, 02:08 PM	There are several basic ways to make your archer an effective combatant. Distance is key to your survival. If you are close enough to engage in melee, you are asking to be slaughtered. Mobility facilitates distance. As much as everyone wants you to fly, a horse is a better option. This is because the horse can move, and you can still make a full attack. Use this tactics to ride straight into Point Blank Shot range, then ride outside of charge range. Remember, you make all your attacks at the middle of the move. Cover is important to avoid retaliation and greatly helps sniping. Regardless of what anyone says, sniping is a very effective tactic, even with the stinking -20 penalty. You fire from behind cover, hide behind something that grants total cover, then move from that location to another sniping location. Lastly, use the tanglefoot bag. It reduces Dex and speed, which means that ranged retaliation is significantly reduced, AC is reduced, and closing for melee is very difficult.
Elrana 05-11-04, 02:12 PM	Originally posted by krichaiushii Elrana - I would recommend taking fighter as your next level. For the bonus feat. <Snip> I'm quite happily progressing an elven evoker/MotAO, a kender rogue and a half-dragon cleric/palladin. None of them really need a level in fighter but thanks for taking an interest! ;) (I think the advice is sound but better targeted at J_Riley! :D)
J_Riley 05-11-04, 02:22 PM	Originally posted by krichaiushii Elrana - I would recommend taking fighter as your next level. For the bonus feat. Actually, that was me. Originally posted by krichaiushii This bonus feat might be Improved Initiative, another bow-related feat, or Quickdraw - but only if you are often forced into melee. I have a build all mapped out. He currently has PBS and Rapid Shot. So, if I advance in FTR, his next feat will be Precise Shot b/c (A) it is a prereq for Peerless Archer PrC and (B) I don't suffer the penalty for shooting at an opponent engaged in Melee. Originally posted by krichaiushii At level 3, take your wizard level and consider putting your level 3 feat into Skill Focus Concentration, Skill Focus Tumble, or Improved Initiative. I thought about it long and hard and decided (many weeks ago) on II as my bonus feat. Thanks for the advice. Logic says take the fighter level. Coolness says take the wizard level :D
J_Riley 05-11-04, 02:28 PM	Double Post, sorry.
Ilanthe 05-12-04, 11:08 AM	Originally posted by Krelios Ummmm.... No... Your warhorse making a double move is a -8 penalty to hit, unless you take Mounted Archery, which reduces it to a -4. Even if you do, you still can't get a full attack if you (or your mount) have moved at all--you're limited to a standard action (a single attack, or manyshot). Ummmmm ... well no. The penalty for your horse taking a double move is -4 (-2 with mounted archery feat), and you do get your full attack. SRD, combat II, mounted combat: You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally. Mera'din, bear in mind if you do decide to go this route, you will need to do a ride check, DC5 to use both hands to attack/defend, which with a high dexterity should be no problem at all. If you can't afford a warhorse, (a light warhorse should be around 150gp) then this tactic is screwed. You'd need to spend a move equivilent action to control the horse in combat (DC20), giving you only a standard move even if you succeed. If you fail the ride check you get to do nothing :( Basically, if you can't afford the warhorse forget it and stay on foot.
J_Riley 05-12-04, 04:41 PM	Originally posted by krichaiushii An option MIGHT be to splash some levels of sorcerer or wizard, to enable the use of mobility and defensive magic- and True Strike. You will never need anything beyond 2d level spells (Cat's Grace and See Invisibility), so a 12 in your spellcasting statistic is fine. This opens up the usage of certain wands, as well. By mobility magic, I mean spells such as Expeditious Retreat, Jump, and Spider Climb. Defensive magic is best defined as Shield. I have a PC subscribed to this idea. Assuming he doesn't learn any other spells from other friendly (to him) casters, these are the spells I plan to have him learn. And criticism (constructive preferably ;) ) welcomed. level 1: Shield, True Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Identify, Color Spray level 2: Levitate, Cat's Grace, Web, Protection from Arrows level 3: Haste, Fireball Please bear in mind that I am playing this PC currently (level 1), so although I could forego learning levitate b/c I can learn Fly as a 3rd level spell, I need something useful BEFORE I learn those spells. Also, I want to have a little bit of versatility and perhaps be able to help the party on occassion (see Web & Fireball) Thanks!
Elrana 05-12-04, 09:18 PM	Originally posted by J_Riley I have a PC subscribed to this idea. Assuming he doesn't learn any other spells from other friendly (to him) casters, these are the spells I plan to have him learn. And criticism (constructive preferably ;) ) welcomed. level 1: Shield, True Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Identify, Color Spray level 2: Levitate, Cat's Grace, Web, Protection from Arrows level 3: Haste, Fireball Please bear in mind that I am playing this PC currently (level 1), so although I could forego learning levitate b/c I can learn Fly as a 3rd level spell, I need something useful BEFORE I learn those spells. Also, I want to have a little bit of versatility and perhaps be able to help the party on occassion (see Web & Fireball) Thanks! With a high dex, cat's grace and shield spells, plus having PBS and Precise shot I would forego protection from arrows (it doesn't stay useful for that long as magic items are often encountered even at low levels, especially with magic weapon being a first level spell) for scorching ray, a really excellent 2nd level spell that will be deadly in the hands of a character build such as yours. If you really want PFA then have it in scroll form for when you need it rather than as a regularly memorised spell. Flame arrow is worth considering for a primary archer as is (greater) magic weapon and heroism. Any spells that will allow stackable bonuses are always good! This combination will give you (when you can take 3rd level spells) +4 to hit, +1d6 +2 to damage. Not an effect to be sniffed at! Ultimately this could prove to be more useful to you than fireball over the course of an encounter. I would suggest going with spells that buff your character's offensive capability rather than offensive spells, that way you are complementing the fighter class with the wizard class, not attempting to replace it (harsh term but you know what I mean, I hope). :)
J_Riley 05-13-04, 08:42 AM	Originally posted by Elrana With a high dex, cat's grace and shield spells, plus having PBS and Precise shot I would forego protection from arrows (it doesn't stay useful for that long as magic items are often encountered even at low levels, especially with magic weapon being a first level spell) for scorching ray, a really excellent 2nd level spell that will be deadly in the hands of a character build such as yours. If you really want PFA then have it in scroll form for when you need it rather than as a regularly memorised spell. It seems like a logical choice, since if I'm standing back firing, I would become the obvious target of enemy archers. But your argument is a strong one and has swayed me. :) Scorching ray it is... Originally posted by Elrana Flame arrow is worth considering for a primary archer as is (greater) magic weapon and heroism. Any spells that will allow stackable bonuses are always good! This combination will give you (when you can take 3rd level spells) +4 to hit, +1d6 +2 to damage. Not an effect to be sniffed at! Ultimately this could prove to be more useful to you than fireball over the course of an encounter. I would suggest going with spells that buff your character's offensive capability rather than offensive spells, that way you are complementing the fighter class with the wizard class, not attempting to replace it (harsh term but you know what I mean, I hope). :) Gotcha. Flame Arrow was on the bubble, I had a hard time justifying the +1d6 versus 5d6 fireball (since I'll likely never get past WIZ 5). Plus, the fireball would do damage against a mass of opponents (possibly) and may help bail our bacon out if we're attacked by a mass. Of course, we'll probably have another stronger caster by that point. But I like to have a character that can fend for himself as well as possibly help the party out (in that order). This was exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for, thanks!
Wayward Son 05-13-04, 09:11 AM	While I agree with the others so far on tactics, I did want to point out something on your character so far: Spot. Currently, you have no ranks in Spot, and no stat bonus to the skill. As a ranged combatant, being able to identify targets at the earliest oppertunity is vital to you. If you don't see the enemy until they are on top of you, your archery skills are next to useless. I'd suggest taking a few ranks at the next oppertunity, so you will be better able to spot and defeat ambushes and concealed opponents. For similar reasons, Listen would also be a helpful skill, but not as vital as Spot. Hide would be very useful for employing some of the tactics mentioned in the thread so far (sniping, ambushes, using concealment). Good luck with the build. My last pure archer met an untimely end from a pollen-carried plant toxin that caused a coma . . . then burned to death in a wagon while the party carried him to town for healing (and the dragon attacked :rolleyes: ).
Elrana 05-13-04, 09:12 AM	This was exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for, thanks! Glad to be able to help. :)
J_Riley 05-13-04, 01:44 PM	Ahhh, so many skills required, so few points. I'm kinda handicapped b/c I need to accumulate 10 ranks in Craft(bowmaking) to get into Peerless Archer. I guess I can take some points away from Concentration and Spellcraft. I was also thinking about taking some ranks in Handle Animal (even though my ability score sux) so I could teach my familiar some tricks, but I guess that is rather superfluous. However, I hadn't factored HA skill into the build at all at this point. Also, I have been thinking about taking some ranks in UMD which I also haven't factored into the build. At least as an Elf, I get +2 on Spot and Listen, so I have a small basis. Spot & Hide come on strong later, as they are Peerless Archer skills (for the reasons mentioned) and I focus all my skill points on them at that point. But I don't think that is going to cut it, since it'll be many levels until I enter the PrC. *sigh* Guess I'll have to rework the old skill points distribution again. I plan on picking up a few ranks in Tumble so I can get out of melee (if I get draw in) without provoking AoO. Thanks for the heads up, probably never would have thought of it for a few more levels...
Elrana 05-14-04, 08:15 AM	You don't need HA to teach your familiar tricks. He is highly intelligent and has a direct understanding of whatever you would like him to do at any given time (so long as he is within one mile of you) so that should save you a few points! Eyes of the eagle: 2,500gp, +5 to spot. Very cheap and efficient way to increase your modifier! :)
J_Riley 05-14-04, 08:55 AM	Originally posted by Elrana You don't need HA to teach your familiar tricks. He is highly intelligent and has a direct understanding of whatever you would like him to do at any given time (so long as he is within one mile of you) so that should save you a few points! Eyes of the eagle: 2,500gp, +5 to spot. Very cheap and efficient way to increase your modifier! :) Cool. I managed to shuffle the points around a little. of course, my Concentration & Spellcraft ranks suffer b/c of it. Heh heh, 2500gp doesn't seem cheap right now, I've only 21gp to my name ;) I plan to take either a hawk or an owl as a familiar (suits the PC's concept), that'll be +3 to spot checks (in certain circumstances)
BlackFiend 06-07-04, 05:00 PM	Quick note: If you've already started playing the character, you really shouldn't be shifting points around. Its unfair to the dm, the other players and yourself. A tactic I'm learning right now is to take advantage of your mount when you have one. Archers, imo, get tons of to hit bonuses...so taking a penalty here and there to get mobility is worth it. By taking a -4 penalty to hit, you can move 120' with your horse and still take a full round action of shooting. With rapid shot and a composite longbow, this works out great. (Remember...you require a composite longbow, not just a longbow). So keep the horse moving around the field, weaving away from attackers, and doing a great job skirmishing against the enemy. Keep galavanting around taking your full round action shots on the rabble. Stay mobile...its hard for those melee folks to keep up with you! You have the equivalent of the Mobilty Feat since you fire half way through your mounts double movement, per SRD. Requirements: Fullfill an automatic DC 5 ride check. (5 Ranks + High Dex fits the bill perfectly, even in bad conditions) Your goal is then to take down as many weak enemies as you can, imo. They are the anomalies to always be wary of. For instance, we had a sitrep where 10 orcs ambushed the party. Including with them was an Ogre and 2 leveled Barbarian Orcs. The regular orcs were the ones making a terrible time for all because they hampered folks, providing flanks for the big guys to hurt people. Taking them down first and hard really made the day. You may even force the DM to consider a morale check of some type. It also gives others breathing rooms in large melee situations and allows you to keep moving with impunity on the battle field by dominating it with fast movement and direct accurate consistent damage/enemy takedown...helping your allies in melee with them. (You had better have precise shot!) When it slows down, reduce the mounts movements to just single move actions to reduce penalties and go after the big guys. You'll almost always will need higher attack rolls, so mobility will not be as critical. If you get your Ride Ranks high, you'll be able to use the mount for cover consistently as a free action. Thats a +4 to you AC against melee and ranged attacks against you while mounted. DC 15. If you decide to take a Mounted Combat chain (not required in any way, imo) you can make your mount near unhittable by the melee rabble AND keep giving yourself the perpetual +4 ac from cover by the mount. Again...dominate the battle field and stay mobile. The same can be duplicated mind you with magic items and feats like boots of speed, Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run, etc. Yet, for a few ranks in ride, 200 gp for horse and military saddle, you are setup for success. It then pays to put some barding on your horse to increase its survivability (and in turn...your own!) There is a reason the Mongul Horse Archers of the East with their bows were fearsome in medieval Europe. Imitate it if you can tactically. If your DM is foolish enough to keep putting you in open ground, punish him for it, again and again, imo. Often, opponents go after the casters with ranged fire. Be the counter to that by taking down there ranged attacks and casters. Good luck.
BlackFiend 06-07-04, 05:21 PM	For my fellow Cleric Archers out there...I found this combo to be tasty! Spritual Weapon, Manyshot, and Riding. You cast spiritual weapon on an opponent while on horseback. The next round, and every round after, keep pelting him with your manyshots...staying mobile. Each round your getting the two arrows (you do have the divine favor going, right?) and the spiritual weapon. A very simple combo for 3d8+ damage each round. Many, many ways to tweek this up a few notches. The cool thing is that directing the spiritual weapon is a MOVE action, not a STANDARD action. That means you can take a standard action to MANY shot, free action to guide with knees, and a move action to keep the melee pressure on your target. DM's...the counter to this is hamper the horse and force the PC off some how. Force the PC to make move actions, preventing him from using the spiritual weapon every round he is attacking with the bow. Even a fear spell on the Horse will do great harm to the player, imo.
Father Dale 06-07-04, 11:43 PM	A lot of people seem to be overlooking this.. From the SRD: Longbow: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below) but not a regular longbow. Can't use the Lbow while mounted. Thats why shortbow is almost always better, even with the lower damage die and range modifier, becaues its more versatile.
RodIshiCi 06-08-04, 12:57 AM	I guess you are the one overlooking a thing... people usually refer to Composite Longbow, and as per SRD: Longbow, Composite: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can¡¯t effectively use it, so you take a ¨C2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow. So, no harm done. There's no advantage on using a shortbow if you can use a longbow (except for weight, but if you're that weak, you're better off with a crossbow).
J_Riley 06-08-04, 09:28 AM	Originally posted by BlackFiend Quick note: If you've already started playing the character, you really shouldn't be shifting points around. Its unfair to the dm, the other players and yourself. Actually, I was referring to the skill points I would gain with future levels. My PC is planned out to twenty levels. Current points are where they are (God, I took SWIM!!), but just trying to fine tune the future point expenditures. I have decently high Dex, so I guess a few Ride ranks wouldn't hurt. Too poor to get a horse right now. And if I had to choose between a horse vs. a mighty comp. longbow, I think right now I'd choose the longbow. And get the horse later. But I like the ride tactics. My guy will have wizard levels, so I can cast an expiditious retreat and have 60' movement until I get a horse.
Xychotic 06-08-04, 12:27 PM	If your adventures usually end up with open terrain fights, buy the horse (or cast mount). If you are usually stuck in enclosed areas, buy the bow.
BlackFiend 06-08-04, 02:07 PM	Consider going sorceror levels,not wizard. You aren't a book worm, you want to spontaneously cast the spe You'll be getting good money soon. I'm sure you'll face someone with a bow or a horse. Once you face them down, you'll get what you need easily.