Good or Evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Good or Evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Prismite
12-20-05, 10:07 PM Hello all

Got a quick question for you, but before I ask, let me paint the picture for you...

The players are in a city where they have been charged with finding a murderous creature that is hiding within city walls. The party knows little about the creature, but have assumed that it (the creature) will appear and attack when the following conditions are met:

1) The victim must be female
2) The victim must be bleeding
3) The victim must be angry

Now, given the information, all the party was stumped on how to satiate all these conditions...except one.

One of them suggested finding an orphanage, finding a young girl inside (requirement #1), stabbing her (requirement #2), then telling her that he (the player) was responsible for the death of her family (requirement #3).

Now, I said that this was an evil act. He states that it was act of good (condsidering the end effect will be the capture of the creature). This guy is a follower of Pelor.

Whats everyone's take on this?

~P~
Veton
12-20-05, 10:13 PM One of them suggested finding an orphanage, finding a young girl inside (requirement #1), stabbing her (requirement #2), then telling her that he (the player) was responsible for the death of her family (requirement #3).

Now, I said that this was an evil act. He states that it was act of good (condsidering the end effect will be the capture of the creature). This guy is a follower of Pelor.

.......

Are you serious? :uh-huh:

Of course it's an evil act, he's bringing pain and suffering to an innocent girl. I'd tell him that it's an evil act, and Pelor will revoke his powers if he does such a thing.
Kaneohe
12-20-05, 10:21 PM Evil. Definitely.

A far, far better way to be to find someone to volunteer - perhaps a priestess of Pelor in the city or a female adventurer. I don't know too much about spells, but I think there's one that puts the target into a berserk rage...so the requirements are met, and no harm done.
Talonz
12-20-05, 10:38 PM Totally evil.

Tell them they need to work harder at this and not cop out. A working imagination is a beautiful thing...if used.
Kyuketsukiouji
12-20-05, 11:02 PM It's an evil act, yes. But it's not a particularily major act, unless they're planning on actually murdering the girl. After all, they need their bait to "bleed" not "spray her lifeblood all over". I wouldn't change anyone's alignment over it by itself, but I'd definitely shift everyone closer to evil over it (note, I use a 100-point scale to measure alignments).

Mind you, as an act, it's pretty stupid.

Getting angry is pretty easy to do. Anyone halfway imaginative can work themselves up in a rage. It would be a lot better to find someone competent in battle with a modicum of a sense of justice, explain to them exactly what the situation is, have them nick themselves a few times to get some blood going, and them talk themselves into a frenzy. That way, you won't have a scared civilian getting in the way of the fight, you'll have another ally ready to help.

The aforementioned priestess or adventurer (a good barbarian, maybe?) would work a heck of a lot better than that hairbrained scheme.
red_scare87
12-21-05, 01:00 AM Okay, clarify something for me: When you say "stab" do you mean plunging a dagger into her chest, or did you mean like, cuttiing a little gash in her arm? Because that makes a big difference.

Hmmmm....there's a fairly obvious solution here...I hope your players catch it...
King_Bulba
12-21-05, 01:04 AM It's evil but now that stupid Palor has taken your powers assuming you are not in Eberron... Hello Ur-Priest. =) If you are in Eberron then it doesn't matter since the gods dont take powers away from people, probally because they don't really exist hehe. Damn I love Eberron hehe.
FeceMan
12-21-05, 01:21 AM Hello all

Got a quick question for you, but before I ask, let me paint the picture for you...

The players are in a city where they have been charged with finding a murderous creature that is hiding within city walls. The party knows little about the creature, but have assumed that it (the creature) will appear and attack when the following conditions are met:

1) The victim must be female
2) The victim must be bleeding
3) The victim must be angry

Now, given the information, all the party was stumped on how to satiate all these conditions...except one.

One of them suggested finding an orphanage, finding a young girl inside (requirement #1), stabbing her (requirement #2), then telling her that he (the player) was responsible for the death of her family (requirement #3).

Now, I said that this was an evil act. He states that it was act of good (condsidering the end effect will be the capture of the creature). This guy is a follower of Pelor.

Whats everyone's take on this?

~P~
The only response you should give to your player is, "Think harder, Homer. Derp."
Veren
12-21-05, 01:51 AM This brings up the age-old question of 'do the ends justify the means?' I suppose that's for the DM to decide. Or at least decide what Pelor would think of that descision.
By the way;
good sense of humor, and correct me if i'm wrong, an angry woman bleeding?
Maybe your players should find a book on the physiology of a woman?
:rolleyes:
kintire
12-21-05, 07:18 AM Actually, I think they could omit the last step. If they grab a girl and stab her for no reason she's likely to be pretty peeved right there...

And evil, incidently. I'm not sure a player who thinks of this is cut out to be a cleric of Pelor...
The Sinister Rogue
12-21-05, 07:29 AM I think even a follower of Pelor could argue that the ends justify the means. But in this case there are millions of other possibilities, as mentioned by other posters. So, yes this is an evil act, although done out of stupidity.
Another sollution to this problem: polymorph into a female, stab yourself and get angry. Or find a woman in heir period: female, bleeding and very, very easy enraged. :P
Milandros
12-21-05, 08:45 AM An evil DM would have the girl's big sister turn up a few days later - a high level paladin of Heironymous - searching for the ones who confessed to her parents' murder and stabbed her little sister, with the full intention of bringing them to justice. About this point Pelor should be replying to new spell requests with "after the trial"...

A less evil DM would make the big sister a high level rogue or assassin.
Prismite
12-21-05, 12:39 PM To clarify, as asked by an earlier poster, by stabbing, he meant a simple jab with a blade... just enough to draw blood I assume.

I expected, given the scenario, that they (the players) would automatically be smart enough to find a woman on her period, yes.

Given the situation, I understand what the player was trying to do, but I think the way he was going about it was evil-natured, thats all.

I also maintain that a female orphan who is stabbed by a "mad-man" who claims to have killed everyone she loves or ever will love would inspire fear, not ANGER, in her. Is that wrong?

He continues to argue that it was "Mean" but not "Evil" and that his cause was good, which is true.

btw...thanks for all the feedback.

~P~
kokujin
12-21-05, 01:02 PM okay that player was me. I still consider it a good act where the ends justified the means.

Okay, clarify something for me: When you say "stab" do you mean plunging a dagger into her chest, or did you mean like, cuttiing a little gash in her arm? Because that makes a big difference.

This was not supposed to be a stab in the chest, more like a nic in the back. The only reason we realized that the monster wanted blood was because our rogue accidently stab a girl in the back and the monster came out quickly.

Hmmmm....there's a fairly obvious solution here...I hope your players catch it...

His solution was to find some PMSing chick, thus getting the angry, teen and bleeding. I figured that would be a bit wrong to just check some random girl's ****** for blood. If you think about it, if I stab her she'll be upset with me, but to violate this girl she would hate herself. Most rape victims blame themselves for what happened and that's not the trauma I want to put her through. That's why I chose the stabbing.

Another sollution to this problem: polymorph into a female, stab yourself and get angry. Or find a woman in heir period: female, bleeding and very, very easy enraged.

That's a pretty good idea..too bad I was doing that along with the other plan. I actually had cast alter self on myself(level 4 sorc) and stabbed myself. Hard part is trying to cover an entire city. That's why I needed the help....of orphans.

Edit: also its not just killing that the guy does. The monster would drain them of blood, then skin alive then leave them to die...after he raped them.
SureFoot
12-21-05, 02:03 PM For some of the above posters, a note:

This is D&D morality. Good and Evil are tangible forces in the world, not ambiguous moral concepts. You may think that an evil act justifies a good end, but it is still an evil act and the perpetrator pays the consequences (whatever they may be)--and therefore, the end cannot "justify" the means. They may mitigate it, but still . . .
rykit
12-21-05, 02:37 PM This brings up the age-old question of 'do the ends justify the means?' I suppose that's for the DM to decide. Or at least decide what Pelor would think of that descision.
By the way;
good sense of humor, and correct me if i'm wrong, an angry woman bleeding?
Maybe your players should find a book on the physiology of a woman?
:rolleyes:

Hysterical.
I wasn't even thinking about it that way and I'm usually the one to make these jokes.

Oh and the act is totally evil.

Ask your players about the reverse situation:
They go by the orphinage and find out the some group of thugs has kidnapped one of the little girls. They track these thugs to some back alley in the city where they find the girl tied up and bleeding from multiple wounds (say shallow cuts over her arms).
Just before they engage, one of the thugs yells out to the PCs, "But it was for the good of the city."
What do they do?

R
kokujin
12-21-05, 02:41 PM Ask your players about the reverse situation:
They go by the orphinage and find out the some group of thugs has kidnapped one of the little girls. They track these thugs to some back alley in the city where they find the girl tied up and bleeding from multiple wounds (say shallow cuts over her arms).
Just before they engage, one of the thugs yells out to the PCs, "But it was for the good of the city."
What do they do? Actually not just the city good for her as well. If we didn't do this she would be RAPED TO DEATH. a little stab is nothing compared to that.
FeceMan
12-21-05, 02:55 PM Edit: also its not just killing that the guy does. The monster would drain them of blood, then skin alive then leave them to die...after he raped them.
Two things.

1. Wouldn't draining the victim of blood kill the victim pre-flensing?

2. What the **** is this thing?!
Good Agnostic
12-21-05, 03:35 PM If you have a George Bush or Dick Cheney in your campaign world, then they would answer "Good!" - because to them the ends justify the means.

If you had followers of a Hippocratic Oath, they would say "Evil!" - because you should first, do no harm.

In general, people are pretty clear on what good and evil is. They get confused when the want to justify an evil act for a "greater good." Hitler is the paragon example of this. The Germans swallowed his hate and violence because it was for the "greater good" of the Fatherland.

The solution? You, DM, need to clarify with players whether of not the ends justify the means. In my campaign, they do not. You can't invade another kingdom and say it's because they were about to attack you. This person who attacks first, is, in fact, the person who attacked first.
Gedrin
12-21-05, 03:36 PM So..the question is...

Is it wrong to...
kidnap a child,
cut her to the point of drawing blood,
and lie to her about the death of her parrents.

Yeh...whatever.

Alternatively, find a lady adventurer/warrior who has a righteous anger at the ill deeds present and who is willing to draw her own blood to draw the beast out.

Lady adventurer/warrior
draws her own blood
is angry at the murders taking place

Or hey, maybe the mother of one of the victims.
Or the sister...
Or the daughter...
You know, pretty much any lady who's angry at the prior muders and willing to help out.
LordHell
12-21-05, 08:36 PM 1) The victim must be female
2) The victim must be bleeding
3) The victim must be angry

~P~

They simply dont need to lift a finger.

This happens approximately once a month naturally.

What the Cleric wants to do, however, is evil. If not, it is most certianly against what Pelor would want him to do.
Azerath
12-21-05, 09:35 PM I can't look it up to quote the exact line because I'm moving and the book is already packed away, but the Exalted Deeds book clarifies the issue of what is and isn't evil. It states, quite clearly that good and evil are tangible aspects of the D&D world, and that when considering if an action is good or evil, the ends never justify the means. If someone could look this up and site the exact wording, it would go a long way in showing with certainty that this action was indeed evil.
NecroticBanana
12-21-05, 09:49 PM ok on a side note, what reputiable caretaker would "rent out" an orphan?, let alone to be poked with a dagger? that right there would peek my clerics intrest.
Darkuwa
12-21-05, 10:26 PM Bleeding? just coming out of the person? and its a girl? well most DnD guys don't know this because they've never been with a girl, but girls actually bleed once a month without having to be stabbed, and they're very easy to get angry while in this state.
KoboldMenace
12-22-05, 06:47 AM This thread creeps me out. But it is kind of funny too.

I think it is evil. It is oprressive and shows a total disregard for the orphan's well bieng. Imagine how traumatic that wouldd be for the orphan. And the greater good argument is a slippery slope, when does the cost become to high?

A few questions:

1) Did the blood HAVE to be female human? Would a substitute fool the monster? You could buy an animal from a market if it for dinner and save some the blood to put on your bait or use something similar to blood in appearance.

2) Good characters have been known to make sacrifices to help others. So why not use a bit of your own blood if push came to shove (if the monster could be "fooled" by non-female blood of course)?

3) Could the monster have been fooled by a female disguise?

4) What sort of twisted mind thought up this beast? It is like Law and Order SVU: Lovecraft Edition.

5) Could a good act by the bait have fooled it into thinking the bait was angry?

ok on a side note, what reputiable caretaker would "rent out" an orphan?, let alone to be poked with a dagger? that right there would peek my clerics intrest.

Yep, that sounds like something a Pelor devotee would look into.

edit:
The only reason we realized that the monster wanted blood was because our rogue accidently stab a girl in the back and the monster came out quickly.

That isn't much information to go on. How did figure all that out?
tasslehoff220
12-22-05, 01:18 PM Hello all

Got a quick question for you, but before I ask, let me paint the picture for you...

The players are in a city where they have been charged with finding a murderous creature that is hiding within city walls. The party knows little about the creature, but have assumed that it (the creature) will appear and attack when the following conditions are met:

1) The victim must be female
2) The victim must be bleeding
3) The victim must be angry

Now, given the information, all the party was stumped on how to satiate all these conditions...except one.

One of them suggested finding an orphanage, finding a young girl inside (requirement #1), stabbing her (requirement #2), then telling her that he (the player) was responsible for the death of her family (requirement #3).

Now, I said that this was an evil act. He states that it was act of good (condsidering the end effect will be the capture of the creature). This guy is a follower of Pelor.

Whats everyone's take on this?

~P~

Im going to try to make this short. First of all it is stated that in D&D the ends do not justify the means. Therefore this would be an evil act. Simply stated by the rules. What the character's alighnment is would be a different matter. I would make him neutral with tendencies toward evil as his first thoughts were to injure an innocent girl and tell her terrible things. I would also revoke his clerical powers and would hit him with evil if this type of behavior was a constant.
RogerWilco
12-22-05, 03:12 PM Definately evil, there are ton's of other more appropriate ways to obtain angry bleeding women, like other posters pointed out. Even a scroll of "Alter Self" or a girdle of masculinity/femininity, or polymorph, or what have you, might help.

I think that is't evil enough to have a paladin loose his/her powers.

The best quote is in the Book of Exhalted deeds p.9:
"In the D&D universe, the fundemental answer is no, an evil act is an evil act no matter what good result it may archieve. A paladin who knowingly commits an evil act in pursuit of any end no matter how good still jeopardizes her paladinhood."

This act alone might not be enough to merit an alignment shift, but if they did it twice, they would in my opinion. Overall it just sounds very stupid.
Millennium
12-22-05, 04:24 PM In general, a Good act can be turned Evil by its end effect, but the reverse isn't true nearly as often. This is somewhat counterintuitive, but that's D&D's morality system for you. Good is far less tolerant of Evil than vice versa.

That said, you assumed the players would be smart enough to figure out your puzzle. It's possible that they were, but were too squeamish to suggest it. Many D&D players -hell, many men in general, and a surprising number of women too- would be more than a little embarrassed to suggest something like this to their friends. Whether or not this is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing is beyond the scope of this thread; either way, you generally shouldn't throw in puzzles like that unless you're sure your players aren't going to have a problem dealing with it.
KoboldMenace
12-23-05, 08:42 AM That said, you assumed the players would be smart enough to figure out your puzzle.

But:

The party knows little about the creature, but have assumed that it (the creature) will appear and attack when the following conditions are met:

Maybe the assumptions the party made where incorrect.
Evil DM Mk3
12-23-05, 08:58 AM Evil 100% evil. D&D has a black and white Alignment RAW.

However here is a non-evil solution. Are any of the PCs female?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prismite 12-20-05, 10:07 PM	Hello all Got a quick question for you, but before I ask, let me paint the picture for you... The players are in a city where they have been charged with finding a murderous creature that is hiding within city walls. The party knows little about the creature, but have assumed that it (the creature) will appear and attack when the following conditions are met: 1) The victim must be female 2) The victim must be bleeding 3) The victim must be angry Now, given the information, all the party was stumped on how to satiate all these conditions...except one. One of them suggested finding an orphanage, finding a young girl inside (requirement #1), stabbing her (requirement #2), then telling her that he (the player) was responsible for the death of her family (requirement #3). Now, I said that this was an evil act. He states that it was act of good (condsidering the end effect will be the capture of the creature). This guy is a follower of Pelor. Whats everyone's take on this? ~P~
Veton 12-20-05, 10:13 PM	One of them suggested finding an orphanage, finding a young girl inside (requirement #1), stabbing her (requirement #2), then telling her that he (the player) was responsible for the death of her family (requirement #3). Now, I said that this was an evil act. He states that it was act of good (condsidering the end effect will be the capture of the creature). This guy is a follower of Pelor. ....... Are you serious? :uh-huh: Of course it's an evil act, he's bringing pain and suffering to an innocent girl. I'd tell him that it's an evil act, and Pelor will revoke his powers if he does such a thing.
Kaneohe 12-20-05, 10:21 PM	Evil. Definitely. A far, far better way to be to find someone to volunteer - perhaps a priestess of Pelor in the city or a female adventurer. I don't know too much about spells, but I think there's one that puts the target into a berserk rage...so the requirements are met, and no harm done.
Talonz 12-20-05, 10:38 PM	Totally evil. Tell them they need to work harder at this and not cop out. A working imagination is a beautiful thing...if used.
Kyuketsukiouji 12-20-05, 11:02 PM	It's an evil act, yes. But it's not a particularily major act, unless they're planning on actually murdering the girl. After all, they need their bait to "bleed" not "spray her lifeblood all over". I wouldn't change anyone's alignment over it by itself, but I'd definitely shift everyone closer to evil over it (note, I use a 100-point scale to measure alignments). Mind you, as an act, it's pretty stupid. Getting angry is pretty easy to do. Anyone halfway imaginative can work themselves up in a rage. It would be a lot better to find someone competent in battle with a modicum of a sense of justice, explain to them exactly what the situation is, have them nick themselves a few times to get some blood going, and them talk themselves into a frenzy. That way, you won't have a scared civilian getting in the way of the fight, you'll have another ally ready to help. The aforementioned priestess or adventurer (a good barbarian, maybe?) would work a heck of a lot better than that hairbrained scheme.
red_scare87 12-21-05, 01:00 AM	Okay, clarify something for me: When you say "stab" do you mean plunging a dagger into her chest, or did you mean like, cuttiing a little gash in her arm? Because that makes a big difference. Hmmmm....there's a fairly obvious solution here...I hope your players catch it...
King_Bulba 12-21-05, 01:04 AM	It's evil but now that stupid Palor has taken your powers assuming you are not in Eberron... Hello Ur-Priest. =) If you are in Eberron then it doesn't matter since the gods dont take powers away from people, probally because they don't really exist hehe. Damn I love Eberron hehe.
FeceMan 12-21-05, 01:21 AM	Hello all Got a quick question for you, but before I ask, let me paint the picture for you... The players are in a city where they have been charged with finding a murderous creature that is hiding within city walls. The party knows little about the creature, but have assumed that it (the creature) will appear and attack when the following conditions are met: 1) The victim must be female 2) The victim must be bleeding 3) The victim must be angry Now, given the information, all the party was stumped on how to satiate all these conditions...except one. One of them suggested finding an orphanage, finding a young girl inside (requirement #1), stabbing her (requirement #2), then telling her that he (the player) was responsible for the death of her family (requirement #3). Now, I said that this was an evil act. He states that it was act of good (condsidering the end effect will be the capture of the creature). This guy is a follower of Pelor. Whats everyone's take on this? ~P~ The only response you should give to your player is, "Think harder, Homer. Derp."
Veren 12-21-05, 01:51 AM	This brings up the age-old question of 'do the ends justify the means?' I suppose that's for the DM to decide. Or at least decide what Pelor would think of that descision. By the way; good sense of humor, and correct me if i'm wrong, an angry woman bleeding? Maybe your players should find a book on the physiology of a woman? :rolleyes:
kintire 12-21-05, 07:18 AM	Actually, I think they could omit the last step. If they grab a girl and stab her for no reason she's likely to be pretty peeved right there... And evil, incidently. I'm not sure a player who thinks of this is cut out to be a cleric of Pelor...
The Sinister Rogue 12-21-05, 07:29 AM	I think even a follower of Pelor could argue that the ends justify the means. But in this case there are millions of other possibilities, as mentioned by other posters. So, yes this is an evil act, although done out of stupidity. Another sollution to this problem: polymorph into a female, stab yourself and get angry. Or find a woman in heir period: female, bleeding and very, very easy enraged. :P
Milandros 12-21-05, 08:45 AM	An evil DM would have the girl's big sister turn up a few days later - a high level paladin of Heironymous - searching for the ones who confessed to her parents' murder and stabbed her little sister, with the full intention of bringing them to justice. About this point Pelor should be replying to new spell requests with "after the trial"... A less evil DM would make the big sister a high level rogue or assassin.
Prismite 12-21-05, 12:39 PM	To clarify, as asked by an earlier poster, by stabbing, he meant a simple jab with a blade... just enough to draw blood I assume. I expected, given the scenario, that they (the players) would automatically be smart enough to find a woman on her period, yes. Given the situation, I understand what the player was trying to do, but I think the way he was going about it was evil-natured, thats all. I also maintain that a female orphan who is stabbed by a "mad-man" who claims to have killed everyone she loves or ever will love would inspire fear, not ANGER, in her. Is that wrong? He continues to argue that it was "Mean" but not "Evil" and that his cause was good, which is true. btw...thanks for all the feedback. ~P~
kokujin 12-21-05, 01:02 PM	okay that player was me. I still consider it a good act where the ends justified the means. Okay, clarify something for me: When you say "stab" do you mean plunging a dagger into her chest, or did you mean like, cuttiing a little gash in her arm? Because that makes a big difference. This was not supposed to be a stab in the chest, more like a nic in the back. The only reason we realized that the monster wanted blood was because our rogue accidently stab a girl in the back and the monster came out quickly. Hmmmm....there's a fairly obvious solution here...I hope your players catch it... His solution was to find some PMSing chick, thus getting the angry, teen and bleeding. I figured that would be a bit wrong to just check some random girl's ****** for blood. If you think about it, if I stab her she'll be upset with me, but to violate this girl she would hate herself. Most rape victims blame themselves for what happened and that's not the trauma I want to put her through. That's why I chose the stabbing. Another sollution to this problem: polymorph into a female, stab yourself and get angry. Or find a woman in heir period: female, bleeding and very, very easy enraged. That's a pretty good idea..too bad I was doing that along with the other plan. I actually had cast alter self on myself(level 4 sorc) and stabbed myself. Hard part is trying to cover an entire city. That's why I needed the help....of orphans. Edit: also its not just killing that the guy does. The monster would drain them of blood, then skin alive then leave them to die...after he raped them.
SureFoot 12-21-05, 02:03 PM	For some of the above posters, a note: This is D&D morality. Good and Evil are tangible forces in the world, not ambiguous moral concepts. You may think that an evil act justifies a good end, but it is still an evil act and the perpetrator pays the consequences (whatever they may be)--and therefore, the end cannot "justify" the means. They may mitigate it, but still . . .
rykit 12-21-05, 02:37 PM	This brings up the age-old question of 'do the ends justify the means?' I suppose that's for the DM to decide. Or at least decide what Pelor would think of that descision. By the way; good sense of humor, and correct me if i'm wrong, an angry woman bleeding? Maybe your players should find a book on the physiology of a woman? :rolleyes: Hysterical. I wasn't even thinking about it that way and I'm usually the one to make these jokes. Oh and the act is totally evil. Ask your players about the reverse situation: They go by the orphinage and find out the some group of thugs has kidnapped one of the little girls. They track these thugs to some back alley in the city where they find the girl tied up and bleeding from multiple wounds (say shallow cuts over her arms). Just before they engage, one of the thugs yells out to the PCs, "But it was for the good of the city." What do they do? R
kokujin 12-21-05, 02:41 PM	Ask your players about the reverse situation: They go by the orphinage and find out the some group of thugs has kidnapped one of the little girls. They track these thugs to some back alley in the city where they find the girl tied up and bleeding from multiple wounds (say shallow cuts over her arms). Just before they engage, one of the thugs yells out to the PCs, "But it was for the good of the city." What do they do? Actually not just the city good for her as well. If we didn't do this she would be RAPED TO DEATH. a little stab is nothing compared to that.
FeceMan 12-21-05, 02:55 PM	Edit: also its not just killing that the guy does. The monster would drain them of blood, then skin alive then leave them to die...after he raped them. Two things. 1. Wouldn't draining the victim of blood kill the victim pre-flensing? 2. What the **** is this thing?!
Good Agnostic 12-21-05, 03:35 PM	If you have a George Bush or Dick Cheney in your campaign world, then they would answer "Good!" - because to them the ends justify the means. If you had followers of a Hippocratic Oath, they would say "Evil!" - because you should first, do no harm. In general, people are pretty clear on what good and evil is. They get confused when the want to justify an evil act for a "greater good." Hitler is the paragon example of this. The Germans swallowed his hate and violence because it was for the "greater good" of the Fatherland. The solution? You, DM, need to clarify with players whether of not the ends justify the means. In my campaign, they do not. You can't invade another kingdom and say it's because they were about to attack you. This person who attacks first, is, in fact, the person who attacked first.
Gedrin 12-21-05, 03:36 PM	So..the question is... Is it wrong to... kidnap a child, cut her to the point of drawing blood, and lie to her about the death of her parrents. Yeh...whatever. Alternatively, find a lady adventurer/warrior who has a righteous anger at the ill deeds present and who is willing to draw her own blood to draw the beast out. Lady adventurer/warrior draws her own blood is angry at the murders taking place Or hey, maybe the mother of one of the victims. Or the sister... Or the daughter... You know, pretty much any lady who's angry at the prior muders and willing to help out.
LordHell 12-21-05, 08:36 PM	1) The victim must be female 2) The victim must be bleeding 3) The victim must be angry ~P~ They simply dont need to lift a finger. This happens approximately once a month naturally. What the Cleric wants to do, however, is evil. If not, it is most certianly against what Pelor would want him to do.
Azerath 12-21-05, 09:35 PM	I can't look it up to quote the exact line because I'm moving and the book is already packed away, but the Exalted Deeds book clarifies the issue of what is and isn't evil. It states, quite clearly that good and evil are tangible aspects of the D&D world, and that when considering if an action is good or evil, the ends never justify the means. If someone could look this up and site the exact wording, it would go a long way in showing with certainty that this action was indeed evil.
NecroticBanana 12-21-05, 09:49 PM	ok on a side note, what reputiable caretaker would "rent out" an orphan?, let alone to be poked with a dagger? that right there would peek my clerics intrest.
Darkuwa 12-21-05, 10:26 PM	Bleeding? just coming out of the person? and its a girl? well most DnD guys don't know this because they've never been with a girl, but girls actually bleed once a month without having to be stabbed, and they're very easy to get angry while in this state.
KoboldMenace 12-22-05, 06:47 AM	This thread creeps me out. But it is kind of funny too. I think it is evil. It is oprressive and shows a total disregard for the orphan's well bieng. Imagine how traumatic that wouldd be for the orphan. And the greater good argument is a slippery slope, when does the cost become to high? A few questions: 1) Did the blood HAVE to be female human? Would a substitute fool the monster? You could buy an animal from a market if it for dinner and save some the blood to put on your bait or use something similar to blood in appearance. 2) Good characters have been known to make sacrifices to help others. So why not use a bit of your own blood if push came to shove (if the monster could be "fooled" by non-female blood of course)? 3) Could the monster have been fooled by a female disguise? 4) What sort of twisted mind thought up this beast? It is like Law and Order SVU: Lovecraft Edition. 5) Could a good act by the bait have fooled it into thinking the bait was angry? ok on a side note, what reputiable caretaker would "rent out" an orphan?, let alone to be poked with a dagger? that right there would peek my clerics intrest. Yep, that sounds like something a Pelor devotee would look into. edit: The only reason we realized that the monster wanted blood was because our rogue accidently stab a girl in the back and the monster came out quickly. That isn't much information to go on. How did figure all that out?
tasslehoff220 12-22-05, 01:18 PM	Hello all Got a quick question for you, but before I ask, let me paint the picture for you... The players are in a city where they have been charged with finding a murderous creature that is hiding within city walls. The party knows little about the creature, but have assumed that it (the creature) will appear and attack when the following conditions are met: 1) The victim must be female 2) The victim must be bleeding 3) The victim must be angry Now, given the information, all the party was stumped on how to satiate all these conditions...except one. One of them suggested finding an orphanage, finding a young girl inside (requirement #1), stabbing her (requirement #2), then telling her that he (the player) was responsible for the death of her family (requirement #3). Now, I said that this was an evil act. He states that it was act of good (condsidering the end effect will be the capture of the creature). This guy is a follower of Pelor. Whats everyone's take on this? ~P~ Im going to try to make this short. First of all it is stated that in D&D the ends do not justify the means. Therefore this would be an evil act. Simply stated by the rules. What the character's alighnment is would be a different matter. I would make him neutral with tendencies toward evil as his first thoughts were to injure an innocent girl and tell her terrible things. I would also revoke his clerical powers and would hit him with evil if this type of behavior was a constant.
RogerWilco 12-22-05, 03:12 PM	Definately evil, there are ton's of other more appropriate ways to obtain angry bleeding women, like other posters pointed out. Even a scroll of "Alter Self" or a girdle of masculinity/femininity, or polymorph, or what have you, might help. I think that is't evil enough to have a paladin loose his/her powers. The best quote is in the Book of Exhalted deeds p.9: "In the D&D universe, the fundemental answer is no, an evil act is an evil act no matter what good result it may archieve. A paladin who knowingly commits an evil act in pursuit of any end no matter how good still jeopardizes her paladinhood." This act alone might not be enough to merit an alignment shift, but if they did it twice, they would in my opinion. Overall it just sounds very stupid.
Millennium 12-22-05, 04:24 PM	In general, a Good act can be turned Evil by its end effect, but the reverse isn't true nearly as often. This is somewhat counterintuitive, but that's D&D's morality system for you. Good is far less tolerant of Evil than vice versa. That said, you assumed the players would be smart enough to figure out your puzzle. It's possible that they were, but were too squeamish to suggest it. Many D&D players -hell, many men in general, and a surprising number of women too- would be more than a little embarrassed to suggest something like this to their friends. Whether or not this is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing is beyond the scope of this thread; either way, you generally shouldn't throw in puzzles like that unless you're sure your players aren't going to have a problem dealing with it.
KoboldMenace 12-23-05, 08:42 AM	That said, you assumed the players would be smart enough to figure out your puzzle. But: The party knows little about the creature, but have assumed that it (the creature) will appear and attack when the following conditions are met: Maybe the assumptions the party made where incorrect.
Evil DM Mk3 12-23-05, 08:58 AM	Evil 100% evil. D&D has a black and white Alignment RAW. However here is a non-evil solution. Are any of the PCs female?