Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CriminalTruth 03-20-06, 01:05 AM	Ok so I played the worst game I have ever played in my life and I have been playing FOREVER.....Soo here is what went down I'm a 3rd level rogue and the party has a Ng Bar/Fight/Rog, LG Palidin, CG Cleric, NG Bard, NG Fighter, And one TN ( Almost NG ) Wiz. And me CG Rog. The Dm is a friend of mine and i decided to tag along to play with him and give him my advice and what not, and to see what his game is all about. So the game starts out with where the pc's last left off in a caravan and 12 riders charging.. ( i came in at this point as im part of the carvan ) anywayz the caravan made a circle with the wagons.. execpt.. ALL THE PC'S AND NPC'S are outside of the enclosed safty of the wagons with 3 long spears set for a charge .. ( about 30 in all ) .. and i say " do you guys know the affects of over run? are u dumb.. " and they say " we came out to shoot arrows at them " ... and im like... " u cant shoot arrows around a wagon? " they all look at me morbidly.. basicly the DM bails them out with 2 spells. ( web and grease ) go for the dm.. the others see half of their charge basicly stopped so they get scared... anywayz..... First the DM makes it clear that a group charging us is breaking and running away.... The palidin shoots an arrow at them.. hmmp...i said something and he said " look at the board they arent gone yet they could be reforming " .. and im thinking.. THE DM just said they look like they are breaking.. " of course everyone backed up the palidin cause its my first game session... So i decide to dive into the wagons and basicly loot it.. i get something like 70 gp out of 3 wagons.. and i toss all 70 to the bard because he looks poor... ( i believe that is a good act.. i mean.. merchants are rich.. hes obvioulsy poor. ) ... 2 of the party members had a problem with that ( even though they didnt see it in charactor ) the mix bred half orc bar/rog/fight. and the paladin.. ok no biggie.. Next 3 guys show up from town cause they sent runners and not a force.. excuse me for being suspcious.. i mean.. who the hell sends 3 guys to stop a RAID on an entire caravan of commoners? .....their like " they could be high level" and im thinking.. the DM should kill us all now.. ( i would have just from the sheer stupidity ) .. Turns out their just gaurds no biggie.. we go back to town with them and its under martial law... now comes for the fun part... short story short.... i steal a full plate set of armor from a boarded up armor shop and sell it to the cleric for 250 GP ... Everyone screams at me calling me evil.... I however say this is CLEARLY a good act. 1st the town has been attack twice in the last week and is under martial law and there is a perfectly good set of armor being wasted in a shop 2nd Good characters promote good. the cleric is obviously good, helping him HELPS promote good, and he obviously can use the full plate more then the shop.... 3rd the 250 Gp price is just something for me as a rogue.. no biggie.. i could have took ALL his money ( he had 300 gp ) i asked.. and just charged 250 cause i didnt want to break him. 4th. Since when are shop keepers poverty stricken? while it is sure the shop keeper would have to recoup the cost and bleh bleh bleh ( all the things the players were telling me made stealing it evil in the first place ) ... i stand by my original thought.. Stealing is not good or evil... Strictly chaos or Lawful, Unless u purposly steal from poverty stricken people... anyone with a full-plate set of armor is not poverty stricken. End Of Story any thoughts on this? cause.. i would love to come back and show all the players your thoughts.. and if im wrong.. i would love to know about it
Tyrasius 03-20-06, 01:12 AM	Aaahh yet another alignment question. No I dont have real advice on this but I wanted to be the first replier, bumb your thread and say that little comment because on average there is an alignment thread twice a week at least.
CriminalTruth 03-20-06, 01:18 AM	I've been playing for over a decade ( yea im in my 20's lol ) but like.. its crazy cause no one seems to get the idea that law is not good and chaos is not evil.. I think D&D players should start taking ethics classes just to play the game and understand the diffrence :\
CriminalTruth 03-20-06, 01:19 AM	and the question is What do you personally think.... Did i play CG By stealing the full plate armor? ( and is there an edit post button somewhere? new to this site)
Rogue Elendae 03-20-06, 04:04 AM	If you're only asking about the actions concerning the stolen armor, I'd say that it makes you Chaotic, definitely, but I certainly wouldn't consider it to be Chaotic Good. It's Chaotic Neutral at best, in my opinion. For the most part, it looks to me like you're trying to justify your character stealing this armor due to the fact that you're selling it to the Cleric, but that good deed doesn't erase the fact that you rather blatantly ripped off the armorer. Your justification that anyone who has a set of full-plate armor in their shop can't be too bad off money-wise doesn't exactly stand in my mind; it's still a highly expensive, difficult to make piece of armor. From a role-playing standpoint; since you seem to be looking at it from that view; I'd be taking into account the fact that it might've taken the blacksmith who made it (who might be the shopkeep) months or even years to make it properly, particularly since it's a generic suit. I'd imagine it's harder to make one that'll fit a general body type rather than custom making it to a single set of measurements. It might also have been their only full-plate they've ever had for sale; you don't know if they're making a steady income of them, or if they're barely scraping by selling studded leather otherwise. Also, claiming that you committed a good act by selling the armor to the Cleric is not something I'd consider good. A good act would have been to give it to him, as most self-respecting Rogues would find a suit of full-plate far from ideal for their use. You, on the other hand, are fleecing your own party member out of all but 50GP, from what I read; again, an act I would consider Neutral at best, Evil at worst, and far from Good. As for your claims that the suit of full-plate was being "wasted" sitting in the boarded-up shop, recall that the city won't be permanently under martial law. When that time ends, the shopkeeper will return to find what might be his most precious comodity stolen. Meanwhile, you've taken something you really didn't need, and are trying to justify it by claiming that stealing is a Chaotic act, not at all influenced by Good or Evil, and that it's all in what you do with it. As I said, you're certainly managing Chaotic, but it sounds more Chaotic Neutral; you have no apparent code of honor/morals that I'd attribute to someone who's Chaotic Good...even a Rogue. I play a CG Rogue myself, and she'd never do something like this. Cut a gambler's purse while convincing him or his opponent that the other has been swindling him, because she needed money to survive on while the gambler was frittering his away carelessly, yes. She'll steal from someone whom she feels can afford to lose a little money or otherwise be taken down a peg, because she has no respect for those who're careless with money; it's in her personal morals, the same as her belief that children should always be protected. I don't know about your opinion, but I personally have a firm belief that being Good-aligned means you have a set of morals, or some manner of ethics. Now, being Chaotic simply means that much of that is set upon your own beliefs of what is honorable or not, rather than following a church's code of honor like a Paladin might, but the actions undertaken must still be somewhat good, and preferrably not outright harmful to anyone. This might not be quite the way it's described in the PHB, but that's what I got out of the description of CG; make of it what you will. However, to blatantly steal from someone's shop without rhyme or reason other than 'I am a Rogue, stealing is Chaotic, so therefore I steal from random people/shops/etc. to prove my Chaotic nature, which justifies it as not being an Evil act' doesn't quite work as a way to claim one is Chaotic Good in my eyes. Your character's actions were somewhat selfishly motivated. You sold the armor to the Cleric, who could barely afford what he shelled out for it. If your act were genuinely intended to be good, you would have given it to him, and not potentially cost him money that might have benefitted him had he not sacrificed it to afford what appears to be much-needed armor. Also, your acts were harmful to others, even if not physically. The shop will lose money it might not have been able to afford losing, your Cleric has been all-but stripped of his funds, and in my opinion, you're clearly having your character do this for the 'I am Rogue, hear me roar!' mentality, rather than genuinely being helpful. Therefore, as I said, I believe that this makes your Rogue CN, at best.
CriminalTruth 03-20-06, 05:02 AM	Thanks and thats exactly what i was getting at.... because CN basicly just says that stealing in that mannor is CHAOTIC. ( which is what i was going for) as for the money? i accually plan on buying the PARTY 2 horses to carry a cart around ( about 300 gp in this town) which makes me out of 50 gold from the whole deal. but the WHOLE reason i was even stealing the armor was because the cleric really has nothing speacil at ALL. and the DM was in the middle of giving the palidin a magical set of full plate for the cost of 2 ankheg mandibles :\. SO basicly.. it was my way of making things fair.. ( its a new dm ) .. as far as them screaming evil... well.. i just figured what the hell.. who the heck can really complain about buying a 1500 gp suit of armor for 250 ?? and CN is pretty much what i was getting at.. stealing was strictly a CHAOTIC act. not good or evil hence CN
Radijs 03-20-06, 05:08 AM	FEI*:http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=607331 (*For everyone's information)
Surprise 03-20-06, 05:42 AM	IMO, concerning alignment, 1) Alignment should never be an issue for players in game, when related to game effects. For example, if a cleric casts Detect Good, the DM will determine what will register for the cleric. All that players need to know about their alignment is what the DM tells them. Players are, and should, be free to call other people evil/good or whatever, but it's up to the DM to determine whether or not it's true, for game effect only. So the other players are totally justified for accusing you and it's up to the DM to judge if there will be an in game effect (if any). 2) Players should feel free to express their ideas/beliefs/morals in whatever way they wish. The alignment system is not an inhibitor of this. It's only a very feeble attempt to try guage a vast variety of beliefs and/or ideals. As said in number 1, this is something that should only concern the DM and not the player. -Surprise
CriminalTruth 03-20-06, 07:03 AM	I Will tell you my character motivations for stealing. 1st case was opportunity: My character grew up as a beggar and just recently came into his own. now he POSES as nobility as a con, ( IE to get by ) as in.. if you have rich friends... u don't need to worry about money... he's a con man. it's how he lives. He saw that wagons not being watched and figured there was SOME money to be had... besides with his line of thinking.. any respectable merchant would keep their gold WITH them... not in the back of a caravan that tons of people crawl in and out of every day. When he saw the bard he realized he wasn't as poor as he was ( it was his first meeting of the bard and the way the players described him he appeared very very VERY poor in tattered rags ) my character honestly felt sorry for him. He even said " you need this WAY more then me " and everyone laughed when i said it cause 1) i dont know how much money the character had 2) out of character sure i knew he might have SOMETHING but IN character i didnt know anything other then a filty person in tattered rags playing a loot ) so i tossed him ALL of my ill gotton gains.. Now the armor was really this: 1) the cleric definatly needed armor 2) as far as me taking money from the PC my character figured he shouldn't JUST give it away... but at the same time he KNEW that the cleric would do GOOD with it....i mean.. if i was TRUELY greedy, i would have stole ALL of the gold out of the register, went up stairs and raided the entire house possibly taking hostages or even committing murder, stolen everything form there, and instead of selling it to the cleric for a mere ( finders fee) i would have sold it in a diffrent city for at LEAST 800 gp. basicly it was a character trait not so much greed... you dont just give away 1500 gp to someone who intends to do nothing more then adventure with it, at the same time you dont just sell it and pocket the money.. happy medium... the cleric was THRILLED to have an item that he wouldn't touch for SEVERAL levels in this campaign ( i believe it boosted his ac by 3 or 4 and at lvl 3 thats ALOT ) and at 250 gp. who can argue? i did LEAVE him with 50 gold.. i literally asked him how much money do you have? and he goes 300 gp and i said, i can give u this awsome peice of equipment for 250 ( 50 gp is more then enough for a character after he's equiped ) i mean.. if i WAS TRUELY greedy and not honestly trying to help out the PC and MYSELF for the MUTUAL benifit i wouldn't have done that. i would have just sold it on the black market for about 700 Gp or so... i know, call my character a hypocrite but honestly.. HE IS.. thats the entire point.... the character litterally says " im the greatest weapons master to ever live! ... what elminster says he take me?!?!?!? ha!! i dare not face such DRABBLE as my TALENTS are beneath IT! " ... yea.. im level 3.. and that character would really say that.... heck.. he got in an arguement with an INN keeper who wouldnt " serve him room service" .. he even has his own bell... LOL and he'll just keep ringing it.... part of " acting nobility" is putting up the act of it...and thats the character .. ur basic " im nobility do what i say " yet really is just this guy who hates combat, acts tuff when he isn't, steals from people for the good of the party.. at worst hes NG now that i think about it... except.. he does way to many chaotic things... like ringing a bell demanding room service at 3 am. and there is his motivation, he know what its like to starve and DOESN't want to starve... as far as the adventure? there is an " evil army gathering" and he VOLNTEERED to find it.... he volenteered all the information he has concerning the "event" that is going on. and he hasnt even lied to the paladin..... yet... lol
Krelios 03-20-06, 07:24 AM	its crazy cause no one seems to get the idea that law is good and chaos is bad.. That's because it's not true. Good and Evil are as independent from Law and Chaos as they are from each other. Good/Evil is a moral outlook, while Law/Chaos is an ethical one.
CriminalTruth 03-20-06, 07:48 AM	That's because it's not true. Good and Evil are as independent from Law and Chaos as they are from each other. Good/Evil is a moral outlook, while Law/Chaos is an ethical one. wow i totally wrote that wrong.. sorry what i meant to say was that the people i play with seem to think that way.. ( honestly ) thats part of the reason i personally believe stealing really isnt so much an act of good or bad but an act of law vs chaos.
zlatko 03-20-06, 12:06 PM	Your party members are newbies? Or not smart. You, on the other hand, are CN.
Smigg_the_Miserable 03-20-06, 12:35 PM	I have to say, I think the character could actually be chaotic good, not chaotic neutral, as many people have suggested. To my mind, alignment is largely a matter of personal viewpoint (to a certain extent). If the character did what he did because that's what he thought was the right thing to do, then surely he would be good himself, I'd have thought.
MrkGrismer 03-20-06, 03:04 PM	I have to say, I think the character could actually be chaotic good, not chaotic neutral, as many people have suggested. To my mind, alignment is largely a matter of personal viewpoint (to a certain extent). If the character did what he did because that's what he thought was the right thing to do, then surely he would be good himself, I'd have thought. Not in D&D, otherwise there would be no such thing as evil, since most evil creatures still do what they think is the right thing to do. "And in this case, the right thing to do is stab the pompus merchant and take his stuff."
00_Whupass 03-20-06, 03:54 PM	This act of stealing the armor and selling it to the cleric at significantly less than market value, is not enough to rule on the moral and ethical leanings of this particular character since by and large alignment is the comprehensive sum of your dealings and rarely does a single event define a character. However speaking microcosmically in regards to this single act it is certianly chaotic as it violates the social order of the community and rights to property of the shop owner, but I'm still debating whether or not it was a good action. Of course this is all from my perspective as a DM. First of all, are the other player characters acting on metagame knowledge? If so then thats the real issue here, if not then remember that only the DM has to be objective when considering alignment issues and that a character need not have the same definition of Good or Evil as the rules themselves do and they are free to feel about your characters actions however they wish.