Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aneul 02-06-05, 06:25 PM	I'm playing a neutral good ranger. I've read the descriptor of good and evil/law and chaos in the PHB and have read neumerous board postings concerning alignment, and I feel pretty confident that I'm playing my character as a Neutral Good character aught to be played. - My ranger works primarily to help others. His number one motivation is not gold, but is to protect people from the dangers of the Giants of the North (giants being his favored enemy.) - My ranger firmly believes in honesty. He will lie occasionaly, and has no problems with lieng to thwart the plans of his foes, but he does not lie to villagers or his patrons for the express perpous of personal gain. - My ranger makes sacrofices for the good of others. If the party's wizard is in trouble, I'll attempt to help her out of it with minimal regard to my own safty (although I'm not suicidal). This behavior aplies to most people in general. If I see a commoner being mugged, I'll charge in and subdue (but not kill) the aggressors. My problem lies in my DM's views of good. Basicaly, whenever I do any of the things I just described, the DM reminds me "you aren't lawfulg good! You can't just do that." As I see it, My DM views anything that remotly resembles goodness in general as LAWFUL GOOD and only Lawful Good. An example: The party has just relieved a band of ogres of a magic war hammer. My ranger knows the elves we are working for were looking for this hammer, but the rest of the party ellects to pretend we didn't find it so that they can sell it (They are mostly Neutrals and Chaoctic neutral). I tell them: "We need to give this to the elves. It was probably stolen from them in the first place." At this, the DM responds:"Thats Lawful Good! You shoul'nt do that!" I point out that stealing is evil, he counters that it is chaotic. That may be, but my desire to help the elves in any way possible does not seem to be Lawful so much as just good. As the PHB says, a neutral good character is a benefactor- he tries to be the best person he can be. So, any light shed into the shadowy reaches of this alignment spawned controversy would be much apreciated. Tell me what you think a Neutral Good character would do in the Ogre/Hammer/Elves situation, and whether or not my DM is right or wrong.
JadeSpider9643 02-06-05, 06:40 PM	If there was something "non-good" about returning the hammer to the elves, then you should not be objecting... (ie..they need it to perform some sort of evil ritual) otherwise, I think returning someone's property is well within the lines of being NG. NG and LG often share a lot of similar ground, you really won't be able to see too much differience until you as a NG come into contact with some LE. a LG will most likly try to find a legal solution to dealing with the LE, but a NG will simply "deal" with the situation.
Cymraegmorgan 02-06-05, 07:10 PM	Your Ranger has no problem lying to achieve his ends. That makes an otherwise LG PC into a NG PC. Neutral Good is more concerned with Good than Law or Independence. He should balance the collective need against the individual need. Sounds like you are doing a fine job being NG.
was_fired 02-06-05, 07:21 PM	1. The DM has no right to tell your character how he acts unless he bans certain alignments or your under some mind effecting spell. 2. Alignment is a judge of your past actions. It is not the determining factor behind your future ones. You can act in a lawful matter and all the DM can say is that eventually your character becomes lawful.
NEd 02-06-05, 08:47 PM	Your DM is a fruitcake. If your goal was bringing law and order to the north, then you should be LG. If your goal was throing off the tyranic yoke of the giant, CG would be best. But you just want to keep the giants from hurting people. Good/Evil and law/chaos are perpendicular axes... a NG char doesn't mind which side of the law/chaos axis his actions are on, as long as they are good. If you free some slaves, will him rave about how you're being chaotic?
CzarGarrett 02-08-05, 10:41 AM	Indeed. At no point should a DM say "you can't do that because you are X alignment." At best, he should remind you of your alignment if out act against it in a great and overt manner, like if you NG ranger decides to stab the evil wizard in his sleep, even though the party could easily subdue him.
fallabel 02-08-05, 11:33 AM	like if you NG ranger decides to stab the evil wizard in his sleep, even though the party could easily subdue him. On that note, is it considered evil to deliver a 'coup de grace'?
Callista 02-08-05, 06:14 PM	I'm playing a neutral good ranger. - My ranger works primarily to help others. His number one motivation is not gold, but is to protect people from the dangers of the Giants of the North (giants being his favored enemy.) - My ranger firmly believes in honesty. He will lie occasionaly, and has no problems with lieng to thwart the plans of his foes, but he does not lie to villagers or his patrons for the express perpous of personal gain. - My ranger makes sacrofices for the good of others. If the party's wizard is in trouble, I'll attempt to help her out of it with minimal regard to my own safty (although I'm not suicidal). This behavior aplies to most people in general. If I see a commoner being mugged, I'll charge in and subdue (but not kill) the aggressors.Your ranger is somewhere between NG and LG. The fact that he's willing to "lie, cheat, and steal"--but only if it serves Good--nudges him to Neutral... but the fact that he doesn't like having to do so (and the fact that he believes in an ordered society such as the one he's protecting) gives him Lawful tendencies. He could go either way in the future. I'd still call him NG, but your DM may call him LG. It doesn't really matter. Your DM should figure out that alignment should describe a character--not the other way around! Especially with a class, such as Ranger, that can be any alignment, changing the alignment on the paper should only be done AFTER you've done some things that prove you've drifte over to the new one. And, hey... if your DM is so sure you're acting LG, just change the alignment to LG and be done with it. Then, the next time you have to lie to get something done, change it back! You're a Ranger--there aren't any penalties involved, beyond whether or not you get hit hard by Chaos Hammer or affected by Magic Circle against Law. Alignment is NOT that big of a deal. It's not (as someone told me in my own post about my LG rogue/paladin) a straitjacket, or a personality. It's a general determiner of outlook on life. Two characters with the same alignment can be totally different! For example, the untamed barbarian who loves battle and the cowardly gnomish wizard who lives to entertain folks (both characters of mine) are both Chaotic Neutral. The serial killer who looks totally normal on the outside, and the evil overlord who does nothing to hide his cruelty, are both Lawful Evil. The dwarven cleric who loves his drink but prays religiously every morning, no matter how hung over he is, is Neutral Good... and so is the Ranger who does what he can to protect people from giants--whether that means using honorable tactics or lying to people. Lawful people can do Chaotic things. Evil people can do Good things. If you do mild versions of both (Mild Evil=Bullying or gossip; Mild Chaos=picking pockets or lying; Mild Good=helping someone when it doesn't hurt you; Mild Law=Obeying the law because you don't want the town guard on you), or attempt to keep the balance, you're probably in the middle somewhere. My problem lies in my DM's views of good. Basicaly, whenever I do any of the things I just described, the DM reminds me "you aren't lawfulg good! You can't just do that." As I see it, My DM views anything that remotly resembles goodness in general as LAWFUL GOOD and only Lawful Good. I agree that stealing is Chaotic, on its own. However, it can be Evil; and often is (though it can sometimes be Good.) CG: Stealing from the greedy merchant to give to someone who needs the money. CN: Stealing a loaf of bread from the middle-class baker, because you're hungry. CE: Stealing the poor farmer's only horse. If the giants stole a weapon from the elves, that was probably a CN or CE act. To put it right is indeed a LG act. Thing is, your character, while being NG, won't think much about doing things only one step away from his alignment, like a LG act. In fact, in this situation, there aren't a lot of NG or CG alternatives--returning the weapon is the only obvious Good option. That it's also Lawful really doesn't stop a NG character--it probably shouldn't even stop a CG character. On top of that, it's what your character is all about... helping the elves. Bottom line:Yes, you CAN commit an act that does not fit your alignment. If it fits the character, you should. Eventually, with many such acts (or a few big-deal ones), the result is an alignment change. Alignment is a description of the character--but the character is much more than just his alignment. If you want to be CG about it, steal the hammer from your party members and then return it to the elves. If you want to be LG about it, buy the hammer from your party members and return it. Your chararcter can use either option. The other options are mostly NG->LG: Diplomacy with the party members (not diplomacy *checks*, just talking--the Diplomacy skill is for use against NPCs), perhaps, or making some sort of deal with hem.
Callista 02-08-05, 06:20 PM	On that note, is it considered evil to deliver a 'coup de grace'?Not by itself... depends on the circumstances. If the Search function were up I'd tell you to do a Search; there've been Coup de Grace threads before.
ehrin 02-08-05, 08:29 PM	Stealing can be chaotic or evil: Stealing is evil if it hurts or oppresses others. And, since most theft does ultimately hurt someone, it could be an evil action... mildly evil perhaps, even barely evil, but if someone is hurt by it, it could be evil...
Callista 02-08-05, 09:01 PM	(oops)
Evil Wizard 02-09-05, 02:52 PM	If your DM is going to be inflexible about it, just say you've shifted to LG and get on with it. This isn't 1e where your alignment is carved in stone. Your alignment follows your actions, not the other way around. Incidentally, Neutral Good means you can act lawfully, but will cheat, lie, or break the law if you have no other options. LG means you don't consider cheating and lying to be options at all, and CG means you resort to lying and cheating immediately if they're the best options for doing good. Your character believes in honesty, but will lie if he absolutely has to. He respects, but is not bound by the rules. That's NG. Returning the hammer is on the LG end of the spectrum, but keeping it for your own gain is CN, possibly even evil since the others willfully plan to keep what you know to be stolen property. A NG person plays by the rules when it doesn't get in the way of doing good, and would certainly insist on returning the hammer.
Tiddles 02-10-05, 09:17 PM	Stealing is evil if it hurts or oppresses others. And, since most theft does ultimately hurt someone, it could be an evil action... mildly evil perhaps, even barely evil, but if someone is hurt by it, it could be evil... Agreed there are degrees of evilness. Chaotic Neutral is Tyler Durden in fight club. "The things you own end up owning you." "Freedom is letting go of your material possesions." Some stealing is good, some is evil. Another example of this is graffiti. It is a chaotic act. It may **** off some people but its probable not considered evil. Others may enjoy the art. Destruction can be good if you're destroying something evil, evil if you're destroying something good, or neutral if you're simply destroying things. Cutting down some trees to build a house is neutral. Demolishing an empty building to make room for trees in a new park is neutral. Keeping the hammer for yourself, or keeping it temporarily can still be chaotic good or neutral good. Especially if you are a good character and plan to use it to fight evil. A lawful good character would ask the elves if he can borrow it the hammer for his quest. Selling the hammer for profit is definitely an evil act. Its the equivalent of stealing it yourself. The act could be more or less evil depending on how picky you are about the buyer. In other words it would be very evil to sell the stolen hammer to a evil character, not quite as evil if you would only sell to a good church. Unfortunately, with a mixed party you might be out of luck. This is probable what makes different alignment parties interesting. You either have to fight the fights you can win and let the party overrule you, or try to appeal to the characters motivations. The elves would probable give a reward and definitely be your friends. An ally is often worth more than just gold (gifts, quests, assistance, reputation, etc.). However, if they ever found out, you just made an enemy.
prozacman 02-13-05, 06:29 AM	alignment always follows action. never vise versa in other words there is nothing stopping the paladin from killing everyone in town and stealing their stuff.. he simply doesn't want to. The DM NEVER EVER EVER has the right to say "NO you can't do that" what he can do is say ok and smile slyly as he sets the DC sooo incredibly high that you'll never succeed. next time he tells you your not lawful good, tell him you smell an alignment shift
Bane 02-13-05, 04:33 PM	The NG Ranger should determine where the hammer will do the most good, and help it get there, whether that happens to be back with the elves, with the parties resident dwarf, destroyed, whatever it takes to do the most good.
Gudra 02-13-05, 06:39 PM	The party has just relieved a band of ogres of a magic war hammer. My ranger knows the elves we are working for were looking for this hammer, but the rest of the party ellects to pretend we didn't find it so that they can sell it (They are mostly Neutrals and Chaoctic neutral). I'm playing a neutral good ranger. Personally, I would up and just take the hammer back to your employers, but I tend to play CG. IA with the others that alignment is proven by PC actions. It does sound like your DM thinks that almost anything considered reasonably 'good' is LG. If you are playing NG, that should give you room for the odd chaotic or lawful act, IMO. Then again, I've started out in games with one alignment, and due to how the party around me acted, drifted to another alignment,DM warnings and all. You might ask what your DM considers to be NG and then work around that assessment- alignment shouldn't be a big deal everytime you act or act contrary to the general thoughts of the party. Bringing up the fact that the hammer may be what you have been employed to return doesn't make you LG. It means you remember that you are not just out free-booting this time- someone else has asked you find something for them.
Dreaming Bard 02-14-05, 12:33 PM	I veiw alignment like this: They are two words, be them good, evil, lawful, chaotic or nuetral, that act as a guidline for how you want to play your charecter. However, each of these terms are very subjective and what you consider to be a good or evil act depends heavily on your personal moral veiws. In theory any act can be justified as aligned one way or another. ex. "I had to kill him he was evil."; "You killed him for your own personal gain"; "He had to be killed to bring order";etc. An action itself is not aligned, it's why you did it that determins your alignment. In my experiance, when an inexperienced or stuborn DM repremands you for something like this, it's because it doesn't fit in with their plot. Perhaps the next adventure depends heavily on you having the hammer. But that's the DM's problem, not the player's. Sometimes you need to call them on something like this. The DM is just another player and if mistakes aren't brought into light, they can never be learned from. Or maybe I'm just CE and want to bring utter chaos to your gaming group, Mwahaha:devil:
Minos_Vol 02-15-05, 03:11 AM	yes, your playing within your alignment, this can be solved easily: tell your DM to read the alignment section! then if he still complains you merely tell him you would like to retire your character in order to replace him with a Chaotic Evil one who is psychoticly bent on killing everything and gets immense pleasure from stabbing people in the face or back! then kill all the other PCs and blame it on the halfling as they are sneaky and mischivous, resulting in one of the party members be dealt with for you!. ahh, long revenge plans... anyway, if he continues to make your role playing experiance a tediuos waste of time discuss it with him, and if he doesn't listen to you (or to reason and facts) , then get a new DM. If all else fails leap onto the table throw a handfuls of dice into the eyes of your group and scream your complaints until the cops show up!
Eldermount 02-15-05, 04:41 PM	Here's what I really don't get. Your DM tells you that you can't return the hammer because that would be a lawful good action. He deems that keeping the hammer is a chaotic action, but (I presume) not an evil action. So, it would be chaotic neutral for you to keep the hammer. So, he has a problem with you doing an action that is only one step from your alignment, but has no problem with you doing an action that is two steps off from your alignment? It sounds like he wants your party to have the hammer, and is just using the alignment issue as his excuse to make you keep it, or he just doesn't like lawful good actions. :noway: